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#1
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
for DVD movies with half decent DD5.1 and/or DTS5.1 sound, anybody else notice that their AVR (that has 6 RCA inputs for 5.1, as well as a player with 6 RCA outputs) sounds better when used with the 6 RCA cables? i.e. than 5.1 audio via either a toslink connection or an HDMI connection for the moment, i'm inclined to not buy either of the new hi def movie players (i.e. HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray) unless it has 5.1 via 6 RCA cables agreed or disagreed? bill |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 07:34:00 -0800, willbill wrote
(in article ): surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI for DVD movies with half decent DD5.1 and/or DTS5.1 sound, anybody else notice that their AVR (that has 6 RCA inputs for 5.1, as well as a player with 6 RCA outputs) sounds better when used with the 6 RCA cables? i.e. than 5.1 audio via either a toslink connection or an HDMI connection for the moment, i'm inclined to not buy either of the new hi def movie players (i.e. HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray) unless it has 5.1 via 6 RCA cables agreed or disagreed? bill Sounds to me like what you are saying is that you like the surround-sound decoder chip in your DVD player better than you like the one in your AVR because that's the only difference. TOSLINK and HDMI carry the un-decoded 5.1 DIGITAL bit stream from the player to the Dolby/DTS decoder in your receiver, where it's processed into analog, while the 6 RCAs carry the already decoded ANALOG signal from your DVD player (many of which have surround-sound decoders already built-in). So the choice is yours decode the sound in the player or decode the sound in the receiver. Here's the rub: just because the surround-sound decoder in your DVD player seems to be better than the one in your receiver, doesn't necessarily mean that the decoder that comes in a Blu-ray or HD-DVD player will continue that tradition and there is no way (except by auditioning at home before buying) to tell beforehand. In other words, the type of interconnect is NOT what is determining the quality of the surround-sound in your system. It's the decoder you are using. With the 6 individual RCAs you are decoding the surround-sound in the DVD player itself, and with TOSLINK or HDMI, you are using your AVR to do the decoding. It is possible for one decoder chip to be better sounding than another and that's doubtless what you are experiencing. |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
ScottW wrote:
"willbill" wrote in message ... surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI for DVD movies with half decent DD5.1 and/or DTS5.1 sound, anybody else notice that their AVR (that has 6 RCA inputs for 5.1, as well as a player with 6 RCA outputs) sounds better when used with the 6 RCA cables? I'd suggest that if you're making this kind of comparison you might be unaware that the settings for channel levels or bass management might not be the same in the two configurations and therefore create a sound difference. ScottW yes, i'm well aware of the issues of SPL levels when making listening comparisons; and yes the AVR's bass management (level adjustment) is also different when the sound comes in via toslink vs. via the 6 RCA connectors bill |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
Sonnova wrote:
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 07:34:00 -0800, willbill wrote (in article ): surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI for DVD movies with half decent DD5.1 and/or DTS5.1 sound, anybody else notice that their AVR (that has 6 RCA inputs for 5.1, as well as a player with 6 RCA outputs) sounds better when used with the 6 RCA cables? i.e. than 5.1 audio via either a toslink connection or an HDMI connection for the moment, i'm inclined to not buy either of the new hi def movie players (i.e. HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray) unless it has 5.1 via 6 RCA cables agreed or disagreed? Sounds to me like what you are saying is that you like the surround-sound decoder chip in your DVD player better than you like the one in your AVR because that's the only difference. my DVD player = $230 OPPO DV-981HD my AVR = $800 Denon AVR-2307CI if it is due to a decoder quality difference, i hardly expected it to favor the OPPO; meaning that it raised a couple of other possibilities including that the audio data transmitted via either toslink or HDMI may not be as "good" as that via 6 RCA TOSLINK and HDMI carry the un-decoded 5.1 DIGITAL bit stream from the player to the Dolby/DTS decoder in your receiver, where it's processed into analog, yes, i'm aware of that while the 6 RCAs carry the already decoded ANALOG signal from your DVD player (many of which have surround-sound decoders already built-in). So the choice is yours decode the sound in the player or decode the sound in the receiver. Here's the rub: just because the surround-sound decoder in your DVD player seems to be better than the one in your receiver, doesn't necessarily mean that the decoder that comes in a Blu-ray or HD-DVD player will continue that tradition and there is no way (except by auditioning at home before buying) to tell beforehand. tell me about it! i still remember my 1st big, heavy, expensive solid state amp, circa 1975 what a major learning experience/disappointment that was. but since you bring the subject up, and since i'm thinking about getting one of the Toshiba HD-A2 players (or the still newer HD-A3), and assumming it has 6 RCA as well as toslink and HDMI, does it decode/sound ok? also, don't get me wrong, the Denon AVR is rather good and i don't plan to toss it out In other words, the type of interconnect is NOT what is determining the quality of the surround-sound in your system. as far as i'm concerned, it's still an open question, and hopefully i get closer to a more informed judgement as to what reason(s) the difference is due to for the moment, so long as i can set up the unit remotes to easily switch to the best sound setup, i'm a happy camper bill It's the decoder you are using. With the 6 individual RCAs you are decoding the surround-sound in the DVD player itself, and with TOSLINK or HDMI, you are using your AVR to do the decoding. It is possible for one decoder chip to be better sounding than another and that's doubtless what you are experiencing. |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
willbill wrote:
ScottW wrote: "willbill" wrote in message ... surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI for DVD movies with half decent DD5.1 and/or DTS5.1 sound, anybody else notice that their AVR (that has 6 RCA inputs for 5.1, as well as a player with 6 RCA outputs) sounds better when used with the 6 RCA cables? I'd suggest that if you're making this kind of comparison you might be unaware that the settings for channel levels or bass management might not be the same in the two configurations and therefore create a sound difference. ScottW yes, i'm well aware of the issues of SPL levels when making listening comparisons; and yes the AVR's bass management (level adjustment) is also different when the sound comes in via toslink vs. via the 6 RCA connectors Do you have bass management and delays and speaker level settings on in you player *and* your receiver? ___ -S "As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy, metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
willbill wrote:
Sonnova wrote: On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 07:34:00 -0800, willbill wrote (in article ): surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI for DVD movies with half decent DD5.1 and/or DTS5.1 sound, anybody else notice that their AVR (that has 6 RCA inputs for 5.1, as well as a player with 6 RCA outputs) sounds better when used with the 6 RCA cables? i.e. than 5.1 audio via either a toslink connection or an HDMI connection for the moment, i'm inclined to not buy either of the new hi def movie players (i.e. HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray) unless it has 5.1 via 6 RCA cables agreed or disagreed? Sounds to me like what you are saying is that you like the surround-sound decoder chip in your DVD player better than you like the one in your AVR because that's the only difference. my DVD player = $230 OPPO DV-981HD my AVR = $800 Denon AVR-2307CI if it is due to a decoder quality difference, i hardly expected it to favor the OPPO; meaning that it raised a couple of other possibilities including that the audio data transmitted via either toslink or HDMI may not be as "good" as that via 6 RCA again, if you are applying processing to the signal in the player for one output, and in the AVR for another, then unless the processing is the same, the final sound may be different. For a fairer test, turn off all processing in both (except perhaps for speaker levels, to match levels) and compare the two. ___ -S "As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy, metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:48:59 -0800, willbill wrote
(in article ): Sonnova wrote: On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 07:34:00 -0800, willbill wrote (in article ): surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI for DVD movies with half decent DD5.1 and/or DTS5.1 sound, anybody else notice that their AVR (that has 6 RCA inputs for 5.1, as well as a player with 6 RCA outputs) sounds better when used with the 6 RCA cables? i.e. than 5.1 audio via either a toslink connection or an HDMI connection for the moment, i'm inclined to not buy either of the new hi def movie players (i.e. HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray) unless it has 5.1 via 6 RCA cables agreed or disagreed? Sounds to me like what you are saying is that you like the surround-sound decoder chip in your DVD player better than you like the one in your AVR because that's the only difference. my DVD player = $230 OPPO DV-981HD my AVR = $800 Denon AVR-2307CI if it is due to a decoder quality difference, i hardly expected it to favor the OPPO; meaning that it raised a couple of other possibilities including that the audio data transmitted via either toslink or HDMI may not be as "good" as that via 6 RCA Let's try again. TOSLINK and HDMI are not carrying audio at all, they are carrying the digital bit stream. The RCA's ARE carrying audio. The OPPO has a very good reputation for sounding extremely good, so it doesn't surprise me that you find the OPPO's decoder to be better than the Denon's. TOSLINK and HDMI carry the un-decoded 5.1 DIGITAL bit stream from the player to the Dolby/DTS decoder in your receiver, where it's processed into analog, yes, i'm aware of that while the 6 RCAs carry the already decoded ANALOG signal from your DVD player (many of which have surround-sound decoders already built-in). So the choice is yours decode the sound in the player or decode the sound in the receiver. Here's the rub: just because the surround-sound decoder in your DVD player seems to be better than the one in your receiver, doesn't necessarily mean that the decoder that comes in a Blu-ray or HD-DVD player will continue that tradition and there is no way (except by auditioning at home before buying) to tell beforehand. tell me about it! i still remember my 1st big, heavy, expensive solid state amp, circa 1975 what a major learning experience/disappointment that was. but since you bring the subject up, and since i'm thinking about getting one of the Toshiba HD-A2 players (or the still newer HD-A3), and assumming it has 6 RCA as well as toslink and HDMI, does it decode/sound ok? I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is why I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've never tried the 6 analog outputs from the player. also, don't get me wrong, the Denon AVR is rather good and i don't plan to toss it out In other words, the type of interconnect is NOT what is determining the quality of the surround-sound in your system. as far as i'm concerned, it's still an open question, and hopefully i get closer to a more informed judgement as to what reason(s) the difference is due to Actually, it's not an open question. You are comparing apples to oranges. HDMI/TOSLINK is digital, and the RCAs are analog. You're just moving the location of the digital decode for your surround sound. It's that cut-and dry. |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
Steven Sullivan wrote:
willbill wrote: my DVD player = $230 OPPO DV-981HD my AVR = $800 Denon AVR-2307CI if it is due to a decoder quality difference, i hardly expected it to favor the OPPO; meaning that it raised a couple of other possibilities including that the audio data transmitted via either toslink or HDMI may not be as "good" as that via 6 RCA again, if you are applying processing to the signal in the player for one output, and in the AVR for another, then unless the processing is the same, the final sound may be different. processing in the player is the same for both listening comparisons the primary diff is the decoder used, secondarily the audio cables used, with a third small diff being the subwoffer boost bill |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
Sonnova wrote:
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:48:59 -0800, willbill wrote: my DVD player = $230 OPPO DV-981HD my AVR = $800 Denon AVR-2307CI if it is due to a decoder quality difference, i hardly expected it to favor the OPPO; meaning that it raised a couple of other possibilities including that the audio data transmitted via either toslink or HDMI may not be as "good" as that via 6 RCA Let's try again. TOSLINK and HDMI are not carrying audio at all, they are carrying the digital bit stream. audio is audio the diffs are the transport mechanism and whether the mechanical recorded source is digital or analog; the usual starting source (performance) is normally analog audio The RCA's ARE carrying audio. The OPPO has a very good reputation for sounding extremely good, so it doesn't surprise me that you find the OPPO's decoder to be better than the Denon's. yes, the OPPO does have a great reputation so yes, the decoder is a very real possibility but since you bring the subject up, and since i'm thinking about getting one of the Toshiba HD-A2 players (or the still newer HD-A3), and assumming it has 6 RCA as well as toslink and HDMI, does it decode/sound ok? I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is why I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've never tried the 6 analog outputs from the player. the Toshiba HD-A2, that you have, does *not* have 6 analog outputs! correct me if i'm wrong. you might consider doing an a/b of inputting surround audio via coax digital (which you apparently presently do) vs. toslink optical (also digital) odds are that you will find a noticable improvement with the toslink optical input. In other words, the type of interconnect is NOT what is determining the quality of the surround-sound in your system. as far as i'm concerned, it's still an open question, and hopefully i get closer to a more informed judgement as to what reason(s) the difference is due to Actually, it's not an open question. You are comparing apples to oranges. HDMI/TOSLINK is digital, and the RCAs are analog. You're just moving the location of the digital decode for your surround sound. It's that cut-and dry. in my long experience, audio is *never* cut-and-dry and i'm confident that i'm not comparing apples to oranges bill |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
Steven Sullivan wrote:
Do you have bass management and delays and speaker level settings on in you player *and* your receiver? i think you're missing the point the question was/is: if digital audio via toslink and/or HDMI cables is equal to that via 6 RCA cables my ears tell me that it is not, and my hunch is that this is really true that it is not fwiw, i've pulled down some of the specs on HDMI from www.wiki.org (.wikipedia.?) and maybe this will get me to do a detailed look through them. not sure if i've got anything from wiki on toslink specs bill |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
On 13 Nov 2007 03:40:50 GMT, Sonnova
wrote: I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is why I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've never tried the 6 analog outputs from the player. Unfortunately, that arrangement does not permit you to enjoy any of the new lossless CODECs (Dolby TrueHD, dtsHD-MA) which can be output only over HDMI (as bitstream or LPCM) or over analog outputs. Kal |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:00:29 -0800, willbill wrote
(in article ): Steven Sullivan wrote: Do you have bass management and delays and speaker level settings on in you player *and* your receiver? i think you're missing the point the question was/is: if digital audio via toslink and/or HDMI cables is equal to that via 6 RCA cables my ears tell me that it is not, and my hunch is that this is really true that it is not fwiw, i've pulled down some of the specs on HDMI from www.wiki.org (.wikipedia.?) and maybe this will get me to do a detailed look through them. not sure if i've got anything from wiki on toslink specs bill It doesn't matter. What you are "wondering" is if the method of transferring a digital bit-stream, whether optically or via coaxial (HDMI) a few inches (from the laser pickup in the player to the on-board surround-sound processor) or several feet from the player to the surround decoder in your Denon AVR can make a difference in sound quality. If the length of the signal path had any effect on the bit-stream, what does that say about downloading music from the internet where the path may be thousands of miles over fiber optics and coax (and maybe even twisted pair)? The answer is, of course, NO. If all the bits get to the decoder it doesn't matter how long the transfer path is. Bits is bits. Whether the decoder is in the player and you are routing the six channels of audio to your receiver, or if you are taking the digital output from the player to the digital input of your receiver, the digital signal is, ostensibly, the same in either case. The only difference can be what the two surround decoders do to the decoded audio once it has been processed. |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
willbill wrote:
Steven Sullivan wrote: Do you have bass management and delays and speaker level settings on in you player *and* your receiver? i think you're missing the point the question was/is: if digital audio via toslink and/or HDMI cables is equal to that via 6 RCA cables And the answer is, much depends on the settings being applied to each. And the relative performance of the DAC and post-DAC stages involved. my ears tell me that it is not, and my hunch is that this is really true that it is not Your reasoning about causes and effects is flawed. ___ -S "As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy, metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:59:48 -0800, willbill wrote
(in article ): Sonnova wrote: On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:48:59 -0800, willbill wrote: my DVD player = $230 OPPO DV-981HD my AVR = $800 Denon AVR-2307CI if it is due to a decoder quality difference, i hardly expected it to favor the OPPO; meaning that it raised a couple of other possibilities including that the audio data transmitted via either toslink or HDMI may not be as "good" as that via 6 RCA Let's try again. TOSLINK and HDMI are not carrying audio at all, they are carrying the digital bit stream. audio is audio and digital is digital, but digital isn't "audio" until it is decoded, nor is "audio" digital. the diffs are the transport mechanism and whether the mechanical recorded source is digital or analog; the usual starting source (performance) is normally analog audio But the transport mechanism is the same for both sets of outputs. The RCA's ARE carrying audio. The OPPO has a very good reputation for sounding extremely good, so it doesn't surprise me that you find the OPPO's decoder to be better than the Denon's. yes, the OPPO does have a great reputation so yes, the decoder is a very real possibility but since you bring the subject up, and since i'm thinking about getting one of the Toshiba HD-A2 players (or the still newer HD-A3), and assumming it has 6 RCA as well as toslink and HDMI, does it decode/sound ok? I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is why I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've never tried the 6 analog outputs from the player. the Toshiba HD-A2, that you have, does *not* have 6 analog outputs! correct me if i'm wrong. It might not, I've never actually looked. you might consider doing an a/b of inputting surround audio via coax digital (which you apparently presently do) vs. toslink optical (also digital) I've never heard any difference between TOSLINK digital, and Coax digital odds are that you will find a noticable improvement with the toslink optical input. I doubt if there is any difference. In fact, when TOSLINK first appeared, many audiophiles found just the opposite to be true. I.E., that TOSLINK sounded distinctly inferior to either coax or glass-fiber, and indeed, some tests showed that the bandwidth of many early TOSLINK setups was much narrower than that of either coax or glass-fiber. However, that difference has been long since addressed. The optical transducers on both ends of modern TOSLINK connections have been significantly improved. In other words, the type of interconnect is NOT what is determining the quality of the surround-sound in your system. as far as i'm concerned, it's still an open question, and hopefully i get closer to a more informed judgement as to what reason(s) the difference is due to Actually, it's not an open question. You are comparing apples to oranges. HDMI/TOSLINK is digital, and the RCAs are analog. You're just moving the location of the digital decode for your surround sound. It's that cut-and dry. in my long experience, audio is *never* cut-and-dry and i'm confident that i'm not comparing apples to oranges Believe me. It CAN'T be anything else. |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:12:17 -0800, Kalman Rubinson wrote
(in article ): On 13 Nov 2007 03:40:50 GMT, Sonnova wrote: I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is why I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've never tried the 6 analog outputs from the player. Unfortunately, that arrangement does not permit you to enjoy any of the new lossless CODECs (Dolby TrueHD, dtsHD-MA) which can be output only over HDMI (as bitstream or LPCM) or over analog outputs. Kal What makes you think that the AVR-7000 does not have 6 discrete audio inputs? |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
Sonnova wrote:
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:59:48 -0800, willbill wrote (in article ): Sonnova wrote: I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is is why I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've never tried the 6 analog outputs from the player. the Toshiba HD-A2, that you have, does *not* have 6 analog outputs! correct me if i'm wrong. It might not, I've never actually looked. fwiw, i thought that it did but then went out to www.toshiba.com and checked and discovered that of the 6 current models only the most expensive of each line has 6 analog outputs! so i can't justify one for it's ability to upscale normal DVD movies you might consider doing an a/b of inputting surround audio via coax digital (which you apparently presently do) vs. toslink optical (also digital) I've never heard any difference between TOSLINK digital, and Coax digital odds are that you will find a noticable improvement with the toslink optical input. I doubt if there is any difference. In fact, when TOSLINK first appeared, many audiophiles found just the opposite to be true. I.E., that TOSLINK sounded distinctly inferior to either coax or glass-fiber, and indeed, some tests showed that the bandwidth of many early TOSLINK setups was much narrower than that of either coax or glass-fiber. However, that difference has been long since addressed. The optical transducers on both ends of modern TOSLINK connections have been significantly improved. you might actually try connecting sound with toslink again with your current AVR the main key thing that i listen for is that the sound is less flat but going back to your HD-A2, do you find the surround sound of the HD-DVD movies, that you've so far gotten, to be noticeably superior to that of ordinary DVD movies? to my mind, better surround audio is the one real trump card that they can play with hi def movies. but so far they don't seem to have done it; at least not yet. they certainly have plenty of great source material in the vaults bill |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:13:39 -0800, willbill wrote
(in article ): Sonnova wrote: On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:59:48 -0800, willbill wrote (in article ): Sonnova wrote: I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is is why I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've never tried the 6 analog outputs from the player. the Toshiba HD-A2, that you have, does *not* have 6 analog outputs! correct me if i'm wrong. It might not, I've never actually looked. fwiw, i thought that it did but then went out to www.toshiba.com and checked and discovered that of the 6 current models only the most expensive of each line has 6 analog outputs! so i can't justify one for it's ability to upscale normal DVD movies you might consider doing an a/b of inputting surround audio via coax digital (which you apparently presently do) vs. toslink optical (also digital) I've never heard any difference between TOSLINK digital, and Coax digital odds are that you will find a noticable improvement with the toslink optical input. I doubt if there is any difference. In fact, when TOSLINK first appeared, many audiophiles found just the opposite to be true. I.E., that TOSLINK sounded distinctly inferior to either coax or glass-fiber, and indeed, some tests showed that the bandwidth of many early TOSLINK setups was much narrower than that of either coax or glass-fiber. However, that difference has been long since addressed. The optical transducers on both ends of modern TOSLINK connections have been significantly improved. you might actually try connecting sound with toslink again with your current AVR I do use TOSLINK from my HD-A2 to my H-K AVR-7000 and I have tried coaxial. No difference. the main key thing that i listen for is that the sound is less flat but going back to your HD-A2, do you find the surround sound of the HD-DVD movies, that you've so far gotten, to be noticeably superior to that of ordinary DVD movies? Absolutely, but not for the reasons that I suspect that you think. Most DVDs are Dolby 5.1 encoded. AFAIK, all HD-DVD releases are DTS. DTS sounds superior to Dolby 5.1. to my mind, better surround audio is the one real trump card that they can play with hi def movies. but so far they don't seem to have done it; at least not yet. they certainly have plenty of great source material in the vaults Cinema sound does not impress me that much. It is highly processed, and on older films overdubbed to the hilt. As long as they do a good job on the surround effects, and the dialog is good and clear, I'm not that critical. Like I said, I do notice that music sounds better from DTS than from Dolby 5.1, and I suspect that the new lossless compression schemes used by both High-Definition DVD camps (Blu-Ray and HD-DVD) are even better. But with movies, the main emphasis is visual and most modern films sound better in my home theater than they did in the cinema. That's about all I think one can expect. A film soundtrack is certainly NOT going to sound like a great recording of the NY Philharmonic, and I don't expect it to. bill |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
On 14 Nov 2007 22:59:24 GMT, Sonnova
wrote: On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:12:17 -0800, Kalman Rubinson wrote (in article ): On 13 Nov 2007 03:40:50 GMT, Sonnova wrote: I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is why I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've never tried the 6 analog outputs from the player. Unfortunately, that arrangement does not permit you to enjoy any of the new lossless CODECs (Dolby TrueHD, dtsHD-MA) which can be output only over HDMI (as bitstream or LPCM) or over analog outputs. Kal What makes you think that the AVR-7000 does not have 6 discrete audio inputs? Simply because I misread your statement and responded to the first mention that you "use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000." OTOH, the HD-A2 lacks 6 discrete audio outputs, afaik. Kal |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
Sonnova wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:13:39 -0800, willbill wrote (in article ): but going back to your HD-A2, do you find the surround sound of the HD-DVD movies, that you've so far gotten, to be noticeably superior to that of ordinary DVD movies? Absolutely, ok but not for the reasons that I suspect that you think. Most DVDs are Dolby 5.1 encoded. AFAIK, all HD-DVD releases are DTS. typo? every HD-DVD movie, that i've looked at the back of, has shown the audio to be DD DTS sounds superior to Dolby 5.1. agreed, with the footnote that that's a comment on those regular DVD movies that offer both 5.1 formats to my mind, better surround audio is the one real trump card that they can play with hi def movies. but so far they don't seem to have done it; at least not yet. they certainly have plenty of great source material in the vaults Cinema sound does not impress me that much. i guess it impresses me more than you. for one thing hi end audio, by itself, would never have gotten this amazing surround AVR equipment on the market and without those AVR units, would we have mutichannel SACD audio disks? A film soundtrack is certainly NOT going to sound like a great recording of the NY Philharmonic, and I don't expect it to. agreed bill |
#20
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
Sonnova wrote:
Absolutely, but not for the reasons that I suspect that you think. Most DVDs are Dolby 5.1 encoded. AFAIK, all HD-DVD releases are DTS. Actually, no. HD-DVD can offer Dolby Digital, DD PLus, DD TrueHD (lossless), DTS, DTS-HD High Resolution, DTS Master Audio (lossless) and linear PCM (lossless). AFAIK, of the two new lossless codecs, HD-DVD discs in stores so far have only offered Dolby TrueHD. DTS sounds superior to Dolby 5.1. Not necessarily. ___ -S "As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy, metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:26:25 -0800, Kalman Rubinson wrote
(in article ): On 14 Nov 2007 22:59:24 GMT, Sonnova wrote: On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:12:17 -0800, Kalman Rubinson wrote (in article ): On 13 Nov 2007 03:40:50 GMT, Sonnova wrote: I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is why I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've never tried the 6 analog outputs from the player. Unfortunately, that arrangement does not permit you to enjoy any of the new lossless CODECs (Dolby TrueHD, dtsHD-MA) which can be output only over HDMI (as bitstream or LPCM) or over analog outputs. Kal What makes you think that the AVR-7000 does not have 6 discrete audio inputs? Simply because I misread your statement and responded to the first mention that you "use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000." OTOH, the HD-A2 lacks 6 discrete audio outputs, afaik. Kal Yes I looked, It does lack 6-discrete outputs. No matter. |
#22
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
On 15 Nov 2007 23:19:17 GMT, Sonnova
wrote: On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:26:25 -0800, Kalman Rubinson wrote (in article ): On 14 Nov 2007 22:59:24 GMT, Sonnova wrote: On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:12:17 -0800, Kalman Rubinson wrote (in article ): On 13 Nov 2007 03:40:50 GMT, Sonnova wrote: I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is why I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've never tried the 6 analog outputs from the player. Unfortunately, that arrangement does not permit you to enjoy any of the new lossless CODECs (Dolby TrueHD, dtsHD-MA) which can be output only over HDMI (as bitstream or LPCM) or over analog outputs. Kal What makes you think that the AVR-7000 does not have 6 discrete audio inputs? Simply because I misread your statement and responded to the first mention that you "use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000." OTOH, the HD-A2 lacks 6 discrete audio outputs, afaik. Kal Yes I looked, It does lack 6-discrete outputs. No matter. Of course, there are many other players that do have them. Kal |
#23
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
Steven Sullivan wrote:
Sonnova wrote: DTS sounds superior to Dolby 5.1. Not necessarily. really? perhaps you could provide one DVD movie title as an example? bill |
#24
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:23:42 -0800, Kalman Rubinson wrote
(in article ): On 15 Nov 2007 23:19:17 GMT, Sonnova wrote: On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:26:25 -0800, Kalman Rubinson wrote (in article ): On 14 Nov 2007 22:59:24 GMT, Sonnova wrote: On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:12:17 -0800, Kalman Rubinson wrote (in article ): On 13 Nov 2007 03:40:50 GMT, Sonnova wrote: I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is why I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've never tried the 6 analog outputs from the player. Unfortunately, that arrangement does not permit you to enjoy any of the new lossless CODECs (Dolby TrueHD, dtsHD-MA) which can be output only over HDMI (as bitstream or LPCM) or over analog outputs. Kal What makes you think that the AVR-7000 does not have 6 discrete audio inputs? Simply because I misread your statement and responded to the first mention that you "use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000." OTOH, the HD-A2 lacks 6 discrete audio outputs, afaik. Kal Yes I looked, It does lack 6-discrete outputs. No matter. Of course, there are many other players that do have them. Kal But if they aren't HD-DVD players, what's the point? |
#25
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
willbill wrote:
Steven Sullivan wrote: Sonnova wrote: DTS sounds superior to Dolby 5.1. Not necessarily. really? perhaps you could provide one DVD movie title as an example? How about instead you visit any AV/Home theater forum and see the endless wars about this, instead of cluttering up this one? The fact is, to do a proper comparison, you'd have to find a movie where you know that both DD and DTS tracks were mastered the same (same EQ), and played back the same (matched levels in all channels) ,so that you are only comparing the encoding. And do that listening comparison blind. Get back to me when you'd done that. Until then, you can't necessarily say one sounds better than the other, based on non-linear measures like bitrate, or non-controlled listening comparisons. ___ -S "As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy, metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason |
#26
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
Steven Sullivan wrote:
willbill wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: Sonnova wrote: DTS sounds superior to Dolby 5.1. Not necessarily. really? perhaps you could provide one DVD movie title as an example? How about instead you visit any AV/Home theater forum and see the endless wars about this, instead of cluttering up this one? that's pretty rich. you were the one who stated "Not necessarily." i thought that this *moderated* forum was supposed to focus on positive posts so ok, here's my positive post: of the maybe 30 or 40 DVD movies that i have that have both DTS5.1 and DD5.1, the DTS sound is noticeably better on every one of them i'm still interested in *one* example from you, where the DD5.1 is better ... or even as good bill The fact is, to do a proper comparison, you'd have to find a movie where you know that both DD and DTS tracks were mastered the same (same EQ), and played back the same (matched levels in all channels) ,so that you are only comparing the encoding. And do that listening comparison blind. Get back to me when you'd done that. Until then, you can't necessarily say one sounds better than the other, based on non-linear measures like bitrate, or non-controlled listening comparisons. |
#27
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:07:26 -0800, Steven Sullivan wrote
(in article ): willbill wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: Sonnova wrote: DTS sounds superior to Dolby 5.1. Not necessarily. really? perhaps you could provide one DVD movie title as an example? How about instead you visit any AV/Home theater forum and see the endless wars about this, instead of cluttering up this one? Since there are fewer than a dozen posts to this forum in any given day, I'd say that we can probably stand a little "cluttering". The fact is, to do a proper comparison, you'd have to find a movie where you know that both DD and DTS tracks were mastered the same (same EQ), and played back the same (matched levels in all channels) ,so that you are only comparing the encoding. And do that listening comparison blind. That's a tall order! Get back to me when you'd done that. Until then, you can't necessarily say one sounds better than the other, based on non-linear measures like bitrate, or non-controlled listening comparisons. Nobody (AFAICS) has the ability to know that except for the people who actually produce the DVD and they tend to be so anonymous that nobody (except an industry insider) would have access to that information. |
#28
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
Sonnova wrote:
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:07:26 -0800, Steven Sullivan wrote (in article ): willbill wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: Sonnova wrote: DTS sounds superior to Dolby 5.1. Not necessarily. really? perhaps you could provide one DVD movie title as an example? How about instead you visit any AV/Home theater forum and see the endless wars about this, instead of cluttering up this one? Since there are fewer than a dozen posts to this forum in any given day, I'd say that we can probably stand a little "cluttering". I disagree. I prefer a high signal/noise over high post number for its own sake. The fact it you can visit any number of home theater/AVS forums and see the PC/mac style 'war' being waged across a period of years... DTS and DD versions on discs I own both sound good. When they sound different, I can't know automatically if it's due to the format or to some other factor in the production and playback...or to my imagination. And neither can you or willbill. The fact is, to do a proper comparison, you'd have to find a movie where you know that both DD and DTS tracks were mastered the same (same EQ), and played back the same (matched levels in all channels) ,so that you are only comparing the encoding. And do that listening comparison blind. That's a tall order! Yes, it is....but it's the only way you're going to get a fair comparison of the formats. Get back to me when you'd done that. Until then, you can't necessarily say one sounds better than the other, based on non-linear measures like bitrate, or non-controlled listening comparisons. Nobody (AFAICS) has the ability to know that except for the people who actually produce the DVD and they tend to be so anonymous that nobody (except an industry insider) would have access to that information. Indeed. So maybe it's best to ratchet back claims about the audible superiority of one over the other? ___ -S "As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy, metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason |
#29
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:38:56 -0800, Steven Sullivan wrote
(in article ): Sonnova wrote: On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:07:26 -0800, Steven Sullivan wrote (in article ): willbill wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: Sonnova wrote: DTS sounds superior to Dolby 5.1. Not necessarily. really? perhaps you could provide one DVD movie title as an example? How about instead you visit any AV/Home theater forum and see the endless wars about this, instead of cluttering up this one? Since there are fewer than a dozen posts to this forum in any given day, I'd say that we can probably stand a little "cluttering". I disagree. I prefer a high signal/noise over high post number for its own sake. The fact it you can visit any number of home theater/AVS forums and see the PC/mac style 'war' being waged across a period of years... DTS and DD versions on discs I own both sound good. When they sound different, I can't know automatically if it's due to the format or to some other factor in the production and playback...or to my imagination. And neither can you or willbill. The fact is, to do a proper comparison, you'd have to find a movie where you know that both DD and DTS tracks were mastered the same (same EQ), and played back the same (matched levels in all channels) ,so that you are only comparing the encoding. And do that listening comparison blind. That's a tall order! Yes, it is....but it's the only way you're going to get a fair comparison of the formats. Get back to me when you'd done that. Until then, you can't necessarily say one sounds better than the other, based on non-linear measures like bitrate, or non-controlled listening comparisons. Nobody (AFAICS) has the ability to know that except for the people who actually produce the DVD and they tend to be so anonymous that nobody (except an industry insider) would have access to that information. Indeed. So maybe it's best to ratchet back claims about the audible superiority of one over the other? Not at all. Most DTS discs also have Dolby 5.1 tracks on them. Most players allow one to choose. In every case, *I* have found the DTS to sound superior. Whether the improvement with DTS inherent in the system or just in the way its applied, I don't know and have know way of knowing. All I can say is that DTS sounds better than the same film in Dolby 5.1 and sounds better consistently. |
#30
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
willbill wrote:
Sonnova wrote: On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:59:48 -0800, willbill wrote (in article ): Sonnova wrote: I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is is why I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've never tried the 6 analog outputs from the player. the Toshiba HD-A2, that you have, does *not* have 6 analog outputs! correct me if i'm wrong. It might not, I've never actually looked. fwiw, i thought that it did but then went out to www.toshiba.com and checked and discovered that of the 6 current models only the most expensive of each line has 6 analog outputs! so i can't justify one for it's ability to upscale normal DVD movies The ability to upscale DVDs isn't the only issue. The HD-A35 does have analog outputs (in addition to HDMI and Toslink), and it has the capability of processing most of the new high rez audio formats, including DD PLus, DD TrueHD (lossless), DTS, DTS-HD High Resolution, and DTS Master Audio (lossless). Although there aren't many discs with high rez audio at this time, most seem to expect more of them in the coming year. With the A35 or a comparable player you would have the ability to send surround audio in analog form to your AVR or pre/pro via either analog cables, or audio in one of the digital formats via HDMI or Toslink, as you prefer. - Whichever sounds best to you. In addition to its upscaling function, it would be relatively future proof with respect to processing formats that may be used on future video (or audio) discs (though not including multi-channel SACD). Plus being able to process HD video on HD DVDs. Although costing more than the A2, I understand that the A35 is now available for less than $400 online, including several free discs, and close to that at BB or CC. - I'm not stuck on this particular model, and others with similar capabilities are expected to be introduced next year, but it seems to be one that would have the capabilities you want, plus some you don't want now but may want later. Jim Jim you might consider doing an a/b of inputting surround audio via coax digital (which you apparently presently do) vs. toslink optical (also digital) I doubt if there is any difference. In fact, when TOSLINK first appeared, many audiophiles found just the opposite to be true. I.E., that TOSLINK sounded distinctly inferior to either coax or glass-fiber, and indeed, some tests showed that the bandwidth of many early TOSLINK setups was much narrower than that of either coax or glass-fiber. However, that difference has been long since addressed. The optical transducers on both ends of modern TOSLINK connections have been significantly improved. =============================================== == to my mind, better surround audio is the one real trump card that they can play with hi def movies. but so far they don't seem to have done it; at least not yet. they certainly have plenty of great source material in the vaults bill |
#31
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
JimC wrote:
In addition to its upscaling function, it would be relatively future proof with respect to processing formats that may be used on future video (or audio) discs (though not including multi-channel SACD). Plus being able to process HD video on HD DVDs. Although costing more than the A2, I understand that the A35 is now available for less than $400 online, including several free discs, and close to that at BB or CC. - I'm not stuck on this particular model, and others with similar capabilities are expected to be introduced next year, but it seems to be one that would have the capabilities you want, plus some you don't want now but may want later. Jim To put things into the high-end prospective, that $400 that buys you the Toshiba A35 won't get you a pair if high-end interconnects. I have a Toshiba A20 and an A2, and I love their audio and video quality. Anyone who has a HDTV and does not get a high def. optical player is simply foolish, IMHO. |
#32
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI
JimC wrote:
willbill wrote: Sonnova wrote: On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:59:48 -0800, willbill wrote the Toshiba HD-A2, that you have, does *not* have 6 analog outputs! correct me if i'm wrong. It might not, I've never actually looked. fwiw, i thought that it did but then went out to www.toshiba.com and checked and discovered that of the 6 current models only the most expensive of each line has 6 analog outputs! so i can't justify one for it's ability to upscale normal DVD movies The ability to upscale DVDs isn't the only issue. agreed but it is a factor, perhaps a minor one The HD-A35 does have analog outputs (in addition to HDMI and Toslink), and it has the capability of processing most of the new high rez audio formats, including DD PLus, DD TrueHD (lossless), DTS, DTS-HD High Resolution, and DTS Master Audio (lossless). again, agreed given that almost all (all?) HD-DVD movie disks come with a minimum of DD Plus (DD+) sound, (see end of the "Capacity/codecs" subtitle near the top of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...l_disc_formats as well as an interesting frequency/bandwidth comparison (not in wiki, sorry!, but if i find the ref i'll post it) and "For commercially available discs, as of September 2007 40% of Blu-ray titles use the 50 GB disc and 60% use the 25 GB disc[88] while most HD DVD movies are in the 30 GB dual layer format.[89]" in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Digital_Plus) and that the large majority of Blu-ray movie disks only use standard DD, the open question is: for those hi-def movies that are offered in both formats, does the multichannel sound of HD-DVD movies actually *sound* better than Blu-ray movies? i've yet to see a comment on this from anyone that owns both a Blu-ray player and a HD-DVD player but i have a sneaking suspicion that the normal HD-DVD movie sounds better than it's Blu-ray counterpart Although there aren't many discs with high rez audio at this time, agreed but they are starting to show up e.g. i hated the sound on my regular DVD movie of Phantom of the Opera. since it is offered on HD-DVD with a Dolby TrueHD soundtrack, it will be one of the 1st discs i buy another movie that i'd buy, provided that it had TrueHD sound (or HD DTS), is Evita, which i hated in standard DVD format (i have no clue if either of them is worth a nickel, even with hi def sound) the driver that i see on this, is that there are already many many more hi def movie disc players in households than there are SACD players which raises the open question: just exactly how good of a mutichannel audio/sound format are the so-called "lossless" Dolby TrueHD and i mean, there's been a modest amount of serious sound content (both classical and rock and jazz) offered in multichannel SACD format, which in my listening experience is a rather good sound format but there aren't that many SACD players out there so will that shift to formats such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio? i mean, there are already so many more players out there most seem to expect more of them in the coming year. With the A35 or a comparable player you would have the ability to send surround audio in analog form to your AVR or pre/pro via either analog cables, or audio in one of the digital formats via HDMI or Toslink, as you prefer. - Whichever sounds best to you. it'd be nice to have an AVR with HDMI 1.3 otoh, it was clear to me 9 months ago, when i bought my current AVR that it was likely too early be be spending big bux on such a product ...and having just looked at an interesting Onkyo with 1.3 a couple of days ago (~$1,500) i suspect that even if i were again buying today, that i'd still not pay too much attention to HDMI 1.3 anyway, so i went with an inexpensive ($800) Denon AVR that has 5.1 analog audio input as well as 4 multichannel TosLink audio inputs. no regrets ...but it means that if i go for a HD-DVD player, i'll have to go for the 3rd gen A35 (or the older 2nd gen XA2, both of which have 5.1 analog sound output) In addition to its upscaling function, which a couple of current reviews suggest is OK (either comparable or close to that of my current OPPO DV-981HD player) it would be relatively future proof with respect to processing formats that may be used on future video (or audio) discs (though not including multi-channel SACD). Plus being able to process HD video on HD DVDs. Although costing more than the A2, I understand that the A35 is now available for less than $400 online, currently ~ $360 including several free discs, currently 7+, of which i get to pick 5, and maybe more (Star Trek offer that i saw out on www.toshiba.com site, but didn't look into coz it seemed to be the early TV series and i have to think that the sound is dismal and the 4x3 format nothing to shout about (unless yer a trekkie ) bill and close to that at BB or CC. - I'm not stuck on this particular model, and others with similar capabilities are expected to be introduced next year, but it seems to be one that would have the capabilities you want, plus some you don't want now but may want later. to my mind, better surround audio is the one real trump card that they can play with hi def movies. but so far they don't seem to have done it; at least not yet. they certainly have plenty of great source material in the vaults |
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