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#1
Posted to rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing vital organs? I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I *can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant among the staff at these places. Seriously, wth? |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing vital organs? I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I *can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. Don't do that ! I had to go to the A+E to have a rolled up bus ticket removed once ! geoff |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing vital organs? If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through. -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
muzician21 wrote: I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing vital organs? If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through. Hear, hear!! -- ha shut up and play your guitar |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
On Jul 20, 5:11*am, (Adrian
Tuddenham) wrote: If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers why. *If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through. In this case it just wouldn't have been practical, it was a fundraiser for a local radio friend of the musicians who has cancer. |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
muzician21 wrote: I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing vital organs? If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through. Ultimately, that's the ONLY thing that will change things, but I'm not optimistic. In 30 years, the majority of the populace will be deaf, and wondering how they got that way. |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
cjt wrote:
Adrian Tuddenham wrote: If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through. Ultimately, that's the ONLY thing that will change things, but I'm not optimistic. Has anyone here actually received a refund when leaving a concert and complaining that it was too loud? -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ... cjt wrote: Adrian Tuddenham wrote: If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through. Ultimately, that's the ONLY thing that will change things, but I'm not optimistic. Has anyone here actually received a refund when leaving a concert and complaining that it was too loud? I placed a complaint with Troy Savings Bank Music hall after a Norman Blake/Doc Watson show I attended I was in the balcony and the only sound was on the floor, all I heard was echos and muddy spill from the floor when I wrote them the response I got was to the effect, I was plain wrong, the sound in the hall is perfect and they have no shortage of other buyers for that seat NO REFUND FOR YOU never been back George |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
Mike Rivers wrote:
cjt wrote: Adrian Tuddenham wrote: If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through. Ultimately, that's the ONLY thing that will change things, but I'm not optimistic. Has anyone here actually received a refund when leaving a concert and complaining that it was too loud? The closest I ever came was an offer of a seat in the back, where it would take 30 seconds, rather than 15, to cause permanent hearing loss. |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
cjt wrote:
The closest I ever came was an offer of a seat in the back, where it would take 30 seconds, rather than 15, to cause permanent hearing loss. When someone comes up to me at the console and says it's too loud, I always ask where they're sitting, and it's almost in a front row near a speaker. I ask if it's too loud where they're standing right now (at the console) and they usually say it's not. So I shrug and point to the nearest empty seat. I'll tell you though, most of the live sound work that I do is for traditional folk festivals. These people play great music, but they're not well rehearsed performers. They're farmers and truck drivers and cooks and web site designers and they play for local dances in places that I only went into when I was much younger. They play loud and the dancers like it. Some have very good sounding and well balanced recordings that I can listen to in my living room at a civilized level and enjoy. But put them on stage in front of an audience of 500-5000 and the drums are so incredibly loud that everything else has to be, too. It's a good thing we usually have a lot of headroom in our PA gear (and know how to use it). -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
On Jul 19, 9:15*pm, muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing vital organs? I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I *can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant among the staff at these places. Seriously, wth? loud music causes dry mouth, and thus more drink tabs? |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
On Jul 20, 6:15*am, muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing vital organs? I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I *can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant among the staff at these places. Seriously, wth? It’s NOT the sound guy to be blamed for loudness. Lot of times I have experienced that performers want audio to be loud (most of the times, to the dismay of audience). Also, some of the dominating accompanying musicians want their instrument to be heard over and above all. So lots of factors, unless organiser, audience or band leader is vocal enough and wants it to be turned down. |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
nandan21 wrote:
On Jul 20, 6:15 am, muzician21 wrote: I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing vital organs? I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I *can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant among the staff at these places. Seriously, wth? It’s NOT the sound guy to be blamed for loudness. Lot of times I have experienced that performers want audio to be loud (most of the times, to the dismay of audience). Also, some of the dominating accompanying musicians want their instrument to be heard over and above all. So lots of factors, unless organiser, audience or band leader is vocal enough and wants it to be turned down. I occasionally mix sound for a national student jazz orchestra. It's just strategically placed mikes for solos - reeds and bones, and vocals. Maybe seven or eight mikes in total. The only wedge on stage is for the vocalist. Before each concert, the band leader explains to the audience that "it`s going to be loud - it`s not the sound engineers fault, it`s just _loud_" and it is, but not in a bad way, it`s very dynamic, the quiet bits are quiet and the loud bits are loud. I keep it all as acoustic as possible because that`s how I believe it should be Of course, these cats can play! Ron(UK) |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
"muzician21" wrote in message ... I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing vital organs? I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a lot of "engineers" are failed guitarists who got into doing sound when their bands never made it, especially in bars and smaller clubs. Their hearing is shot and they like things too loud. Used to come across it all the time in LA. I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I *can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I remember doing Guilfest a few years ago when Chrissie Hinde from the Pretenders went into her portacabin backstage to take a nap. She must have used toilet paper to stuff her ears because when she came out a couple of hours later she forgot to take it out and spent several minutes wandering round backstage with toilet paper pigtails before someone told her. Phildo |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
On Jul 21, 11:13*am, "Phildo" wrote:
"muzician21" wrote in message ... I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a lot of "engineers" are failed guitarists who got into doing sound when their bands never made it, especially in bars and smaller clubs. Their hearing is shot and they like things too loud. Used to come across it all the time in LA. Phildo DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER! ! ! As someone that has been touring with bands off and on since 1995 I have met _that_ soundguy hundreds of times. Ugh... But as someone that has also mixed his fair share of small bar and club shows in recent years I would also place a great deal of the blame on young, inexperienced bands that are insanely loud in that type of environment. The Bottom of the Hill in San Francisco is a great little venue (roughly 300 capacity) but it is not at all uncommon to get A-weighted SPL readings of 105-110 dB at the mix position which is about 50 feet from the stage. Personally I find such levels to be very uncomfortable and on the verge of physically painful even while wearing earplugs. The best sounding rock shows I have ever mixed in larger venues (1,000+) have always measured around 95dB, give or take a few dB in either direction. |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
thepaulthomas wrote:
On Jul 21, 11:13 am, "Phildo" wrote: "muzician21" wrote in message ... I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a lot of "engineers" are failed guitarists who got into doing sound when their bands never made it, especially in bars and smaller clubs. Their hearing is shot and they like things too loud. Used to come across it all the time in LA. Phildo DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER! ! ! As someone that has been touring with bands off and on since 1995 I have met _that_ soundguy hundreds of times. Ugh... But as someone that has also mixed his fair share of small bar and club shows in recent years I would also place a great deal of the blame on young, inexperienced bands that are insanely loud in that type of environment. The Bottom of the Hill in San Francisco is a great little venue (roughly 300 capacity) but it is not at all uncommon to get A-weighted SPL readings of 105-110 dB at the mix position which is about 50 feet from the stage. Personally I find such levels to be very uncomfortable and on the verge of physically painful even while wearing earplugs. The best sounding rock shows I have ever mixed in larger venues (1,000+) have always measured around 95dB, give or take a few dB in either direction. Well a 'few db' can make a very big difference to the overall perceived volume level! Ron |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
On Jul 22, 1:36*am, Ron wrote:
thepaulthomas wrote: On Jul 21, 11:13 am, "Phildo" wrote: "muzician21" wrote in message .... I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a lot of "engineers" are failed guitarists who got into doing sound when their bands never made it, especially in bars and smaller clubs. Their hearing is shot and they like things too loud. Used to come across it all the time in LA. Phildo DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER! ! ! As someone that has been touring with bands off and on since 1995 I have met _that_ soundguy hundreds of times. Ugh... But as someone that has also mixed his fair share of small bar and club shows in recent years I would also place a great deal of the blame on young, inexperienced bands that are insanely loud in that type of environment. The Bottom of the Hill in San Francisco is a great little venue (roughly 300 capacity) but it is not at all uncommon to get A-weighted SPL readings of 105-110 dB at the mix position which is about 50 feet from the stage. Personally I find such levels to be very uncomfortable and on the verge of physically painful even while wearing earplugs. The best sounding rock shows I have ever mixed in larger venues (1,000+) have always measured around 95dB, give or take a few dB in either direction. Well a 'few db' can make a very big difference to the overall perceived volume level! Ron That is certainly true, Ron. My point is simply that even when considering that change of a "few dB" the best sounding rock concerts I have ever mixed in any size venue have not gone over 100 dB. That includes concerts using enormous sound systems for covering tens of thousands of people. And yet whenever I go to a local bar gig for under 300 people I am encountering levels well over 100dB. Sometimes the bar band's will have a stage volume that alone is over 100dB, which is just downright crazy. |
#18
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
thepaulthomas wrote:
[on variation across the room] That is certainly true, Ron. My point is simply that even when considering that change of a "few dB" the best sounding rock concerts I have ever mixed in any size venue have not gone over 100 dB. That includes concerts using enormous sound systems for covering tens of thousands of people. And yet whenever I go to a local bar gig for under 300 people I am encountering levels well over 100dB. Sometimes the bar band's will have a stage volume that alone is over 100dB, which is just downright crazy. Again, I have said this a few times befo way long time ago I had the liberty of running around in a tent at the Roskide Festiva with a handheld Ivie set to C-weighted. Based on those measurements it is my opinion that good housesound needs to be 10 dB louder than the stage SPL. I don't know whether you would get that measurable difference in a room, but I think it stands well as a principle in case the intention is that it shall be the pa that defines the balance. In real life that generally translates to: the guitar player defines the overall loudness. Which btw. has been the reply I have gotten when complaining to the sound board operator ..... Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#19
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
thepaulthomas wrote:
Sometimes the bar band's will have a stage volume that alone is over 100dB, which is just downright crazy. Oh, how I love in-ears. You're absolutely right. ---Jeff |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
On Jul 22, 12:35*pm, thepaulthomas
wrote: And yet whenever I go to a local bar gig for under 300 people I am encountering levels well over 100dB. Sometimes the bar band's will have a stage volume that alone is over 100dB, which is just downright crazy. What people do not realize is that the 100db is now your starting point for the mix volume. You can't have the balanced FOH mix softer than the loudest thing on stage. |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
muzician21 wrote: I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing vital organs? Incompetent or deaf sound engineers normally. Then again I don't know what your definition of loud is. You might also be surprised how well the ear tolerates moderately loud music. Hearing damage figures are based on industrial noise which has a VERY different character. I could get technical here if you want. Graham -- due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment to my email address |
#22
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
On Jul 19, 9:15*pm, muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing vital organs? I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I *can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant among the staff at these places. Seriously, wth? If I know I'm going to be stuck in such places I take my molded in-ear earplugs with me (I use them for shooting... er, not pianists! Skeet.) I suspect the reason for "too loud" is that this "music" (for want of a better word) is allegedly "enhanced" by non-linear distortion in the ear at very high SPL's (like guitar "fuzz"?) Of course, it's very damaging to the ears of all parties but they won't know until later in life. I have even used these earplugs is Greek restaurents that have a live bouzouki band playing - very restful, and the lamb chops taste even better! On a few ocasions I've used these earplugs in movie theatres (mostly for action movies) where, amazingly, they seem to make the sound more accurate. Cheers, Roger |
#23
Posted to rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
On Jul 19, 7:15 pm, muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing vital organs? I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I *can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant among the staff at these places. Seriously, wth? I went to a concert in Las Vegas last Saturday night. ZZ Top opened for Aerosmith. I heard ZZ many years ago in a venue not known for good sound - U of Montana Adams Center. The kick drum at that concert was so loud that the vocals and guitars were barely heard. I expected better at the Las Vegas Concert at the MGM Grand arena. IT WAS WORSE!!. The SPL must have been around 130dB and all I could hear was the kick drum. A constant rumble with no definition. I spent the duration of their set in the hallway with earplugs in. There was no place that the sound was intelligible while the drums were playing. Aerosmith came on and though the kick drum was louder than required for a good mix, The sound was good in some sections of the room but not where I was sitting, which was 45 degrees off the stage and about 15 rows up from the floor. I'd give their performance an A- and the sound a B-. It was still too loud bot not anywhere near the level that ZZ Top played at. I think th reason that the venue made us pour our bottled water into cups before entering the arena was so that they wouldn't be thrown at the FOH desk. Biggest waste of $200 I ever spent. |
#24
Posted to rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
wrote in message ... On Jul 19, 7:15 pm, muzician21 wrote: I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing vital organs? I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I *can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant among the staff at these places. Seriously, wth? I went to a concert in Las Vegas last Saturday night. ZZ Top opened for Aerosmith. I heard ZZ many years ago in a venue not known for good sound - U of Montana Adams Center. The kick drum at that concert was so loud that the vocals and guitars were barely heard. I expected better at the Las Vegas Concert at the MGM Grand arena. IT WAS WORSE!!. The SPL must have been around 130dB and all I could hear was the kick drum. A constant rumble with no definition. I spent the duration of their set in the hallway with earplugs in. There was no place that the sound was intelligible while the drums were playing. Aerosmith came on and though the kick drum was louder than required for a good mix, The sound was good in some sections of the room but not where I was sitting, which was 45 degrees off the stage and about 15 rows up from the floor. I'd give their performance an A- and the sound a B-. It was still too loud bot not anywhere near the level that ZZ Top played at. I think th reason that the venue made us pour our bottled water into cups before entering the arena was so that they wouldn't be thrown at the FOH desk. Biggest waste of $200 I ever spent. I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of a 12,000 seat arena Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears Gorge |
#25
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote in message m... I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of a 12,000 seat arena Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears I walked out of a U2 concert a couple of years ago because my ears were about to start bleeding. I don't know who was at FOH but I think it must have been a deaf plumber called in to unblock a drain who took a wrong turn and ended up at the FOH position. Phildo |
#26
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
Last year I went to see the color purple at the fox theater in
Atlanta. The sound system was terrific. The mixer guy(s) had to be deaf. He had like 30 people on stage singing with wireless mics and kept the same volume per person for when there was one or thirty people singing. In mass the 30 people could blow an eardrum. Ruined the play for me. Where do they find these jackass mixers. Unfortunately I have to go to see 42nd street at the same theater on Saturday. I hope they found someone who understands entertainment this year. peace dawg |
#27
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
On 28/07/09 23:43, in article ,
"Phildo" wrote: "George's Pro Sound Co." wrote in message m... I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of a 12,000 seat arena Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears I walked out of a U2 concert a couple of years ago because my ears were about to start bleeding. I don't know who was at FOH but I think it must have been a deaf plumber called in to unblock a drain who took a wrong turn and ended up at the FOH position. Wasn't that how you got a job once? ;-) -- Joe Kotroczo |
#28
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote
I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of a 12,000 seat arena Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears I refused to work a couple of Blues Traveler gigs because they suck. I have never walked *in to* a Bowie show because I find him irrelevant. I've seen Zappa many times. He was brilliant, amusing, and quite entertaining. My favorite shows were with the original Mothers. Didn't like the "Flo and Eddie" version of his band. -- Steve snip McQ |
#29
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
In article , McSteve wrote:
"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of a 12,000 seat arena Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears I refused to work a couple of Blues Traveler gigs because they suck. I have never refused to work with a group because they sucked. I have used it as an opportunity to raise my rates or add PIA charges, though. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#30
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
On Aug 3, 10:23 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
In article , McSteve wrote: "George's Pro Sound Co." wrote I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of a 12,000 seat arena Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears I refused to work a couple of Blues Traveler gigs because they suck. I have never refused to work with a group because they sucked. I have used it as an opportunity to raise my rates or add PIA charges, though. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." Blues Traveler sounded pretty good when I mixed them outside for TV, and the FOH consisted of my air mix through two JBL EON 12's on sticks. g And they were great sports even though I cut down their input list for the 5 or so songs considerably. Hey, it was a small Neve. Most bands I find are pretty trusting of the people that support them - and they have to be really. You need to have faith in the people you work with or you can't accomplish anything great. The better performers I have found have a pretty good sense of whether people are really there for them or not - but nevertheless the show must go on. You do get a few artists that are obsessive in needing to control everything, and it's their work that I have eventually found to be inevitably boringly flat. Even if they were once, say mmm, Humble as Pie? I hate In Ear Monitors, I think they widen, rather then diminish, the distance between a performer and the audience. And the artificial reality they put the artist in can damage performance dynamics. And it can make singing introverted as well, like the worst "studio recording with headphones" effect. Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#31
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
On Aug 3, 10:23 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
In article , McSteve wrote: "George's Pro Sound Co." wrote I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of a 12,000 seat arena Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears I refused to work a couple of Blues Traveler gigs because they suck. I have never refused to work with a group because they sucked. I have used it as an opportunity to raise my rates or add PIA charges, though. --scott Blues Traveler sounded pretty good when I mixed them outside for TV, and the FOH consisted of my air mix through two JBL EON 12's on sticks. g And they were great sports even though I cut down their input list for the 5 or so songs considerably. Hey, it was a small Neve. Most bands I find are pretty trusting of the people that support them - and they have to be really. You need to have faith in the people you work with or you can't accomplish anything great. The better performers I have found have a pretty good sense of whether people are really there for them or not - but nevertheless the show must go on. You do get a few artists that are obsessive in needing to control everything, and it's their work that I have eventually found to be inevitably boringly flat. Even if they were once, say mmm, Humble as Pie? I hate In Ear Monitors, I think they widen, rather then diminish, the distance between a performer and the audience. And the artificial reality they put the artist in can damage performance dynamics. And it can make singing introverted as well, like the worst "studio recording with headphones" effect. Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#32
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
NOt cross posted to aapls.
On Mon 2037-Aug-03 10:23, Scott Dorsey writes: I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of a 12,000 seat arena I refused to work a couple of Blues Traveler gigs because they suck. I have never refused to work with a group because they sucked. I have used it as an opportunity to raise my rates or add PIA charges, though. Ditto here. Karaoke, club dj's, etc. are always almost double price, or were when I did a live sr rig. I found all sorts of service charges, etc. to tack on. Usually that meant they went somewhere else for the gig, but every once in awhile when I"d get the bottom of the barrel I"d at least get paid, or stay home. I used to refuse volunteer gigs if they had karaoke, club dj's, rappers, etc. Regards, Richard .... IF you suck louder won't help. -- | Internet: | \\--- Remove .my.foot for email ---// | via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site | Standard disclaimer: The views of this us |
#33
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
Scott Dorsey wrote:
I have never refused to work with a group because they sucked. I have used it as an opportunity to raise my rates or add PIA charges, though. --scott I have never refused to work for a band, I just book another show if I don't like the band. -Denny |
#34
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:
I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of a 12,000 seat arena Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears Gorge I walked out on a band - twice - who I was hired to mix (exclusive agreement for my services) ... club gigs mostly. Literally walked out the front door. My sound system sitting there. I moved the faders & knobs, but heard no difference because the stage volume was more than my system was putting out. I blew sub, low & mid drivers, but never noticed because I couldn't hear it over stage volume. I bought a bigger system thinking I could keep up to them, then blew all my horns the first time I used it. I saw a George Clinton P-Funk show at Penn State; it was so loud, I moved as far away from the stage as I could get & it was still too loud. I worked a show with them years later & it was 120db at FOH from the first downbeat. It didn't get any better. I had my earplugs in all day. What was amazing is that people were standing right in front of the speakers grooving to the "feel" .... obviously enjoying the permanent hearing damage. When I started playing in bands, my parents used to tell me; "It's too loud & all sounds the same." I never thought I'd grow up to be like that ..... but ..... Don't get me started .......... oh, you already did. I've walked out on two other shows that I wasn't working. Dave Matthews & Steve Miller. I couldn't hear the band over the audience singing along. The saving grace was that I hadn't paid to be there. -Denny |
#35
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
I saw a George Clinton P-Funk show at Penn State; it was so loud, I
moved as far away from the stage as I could get & it was still too loud. I worked a show with them years later & it was 120dB at FOH from the first downbeat. It didn't get any better. I had my earplugs in all day. What was amazing is that people were standing right in front of the speakers grooving to the "feel"... obviously enjoying the permanent hearing damage. This is the kind of story that makes classical snobs such as myself say "See? This proves that the music isn't any good. Or that the listeners don't understand music on any level beyond "the beat". Or both." The post-War generation's general inability to sit quietly and listen attentively to music with some degree of subtlety (this includes a lot of jazz) is indicative of a society that has rejected subtlety of thought. |
#36
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message ... I saw a George Clinton P-Funk show at Penn State; it was so loud, I moved as far away from the stage as I could get & it was still too loud. I worked a show with them years later & it was 120dB at FOH from the first downbeat. It didn't get any better. I had my earplugs in all day. What was amazing is that people were standing right in front of the speakers grooving to the "feel"... obviously enjoying the permanent hearing damage. This is the kind of story that makes classical snobs such as myself say "See? This proves that the music isn't any good. Or that the listeners don't understand music on any level beyond "the beat". Or both." The post-War generation's general inability to sit quietly and listen attentively to music with some degree of subtlety (this includes a lot of jazz) is indicative of a society that has rejected subtlety of thought. That is one of the most closed-minded, elitist, snobbish and idiotic things I have ever seen on usenet. It's like an Italian saying that Italian cooking is the only real food, an art critic saying only one particular style of art is really art or a xtian saying theirs is the only true god. Different people listen to different music for different things. Some like it to dance to, others like it in he background at functions as sonic wallpaper, others use it as part of their religious rituals etc etc. Personally I think your head is so far up your arse you can see the back of your teeth. Phildo |
#37
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
"William Sommerwerck" wrote ...
I saw a George Clinton P-Funk show at Penn State; it was so loud, I moved as far away from the stage as I could get & it was still too loud. I worked a show with them years later & it was 120dB at FOH from the first downbeat. It didn't get any better. I had my earplugs in all day. What was amazing is that people were standing right in front of the speakers grooving to the "feel"... obviously enjoying the permanent hearing damage. This is the kind of story that makes classical snobs such as myself say "See? This proves that the music isn't any good. Or that the listeners don't understand music on any level beyond "the beat". Or both." The post-War generation's general inability to sit quietly and listen attentively to music with some degree of subtlety (this includes a lot of jazz) is indicative of a society that has rejected subtlety of thought. Hear here! Did you bribe Phildo to demonstrate the behavior? :-) |
#38
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
William Sommerwerck wrote:
I saw a George Clinton P-Funk show at Penn State; it was so loud, I moved as far away from the stage as I could get & it was still too loud. I worked a show with them years later & it was 120dB at FOH from the first downbeat. It didn't get any better. I had my earplugs in all day. What was amazing is that people were standing right in front of the speakers grooving to the "feel"... obviously enjoying the permanent hearing damage. This is the kind of story that makes classical snobs such as myself say "See? This proves that the music isn't any good. Or that the listeners don't understand music on any level beyond "the beat". Or both." The post-War generation's general inability to sit quietly and listen attentively to music with some degree of subtlety (this includes a lot of jazz) is indicative of a society that has rejected subtlety of thought. Have you read _Dancing in the Streets: A History of Collective Joy_ by Barbara Ehrenreich? Uptight white people put pews in churches to keep people from dancing. The music I like is the music I like. That doesn't make it good or bad, irrespective of whether or not I am a snob. Sitting and listening is not an activity superior to dancing. Mind you that I do think much of goes on at huge concerts has nothing to do with the music and everything to do with the scene. Subtlety of though has never been a favored attribute among the masses. -- ha shut up and play your guitar |
#39
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
On Aug 4, 7:47*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote: This is the kind of story that makes classical snobs such as myself say "See? This proves that the music isn't any good. Or that the listeners don't understand music on any level beyond "the beat". Or both." I'm curious what someone like Quincy Jones - who I imagine has forgotten more about music than most here and who has worked in a wide variety of musical styles would have to say about your above statement. Or ditto Leonard Bernstein. The post-War generation's general inability to sit quietly and listen attentively to music with some degree of subtlety Wow, sweeping generalizations much? So no member of the *numerous* generations that have come since "the war" - can sit and listen to music. Wonder who's been buying all those concert tickets at various venues the world over, who's been keeping PBS on the air. (this includes a lot of jazz) is indicative of a society that has rejected subtlety of thought. I'm not aware that the masses have ever been guilty of subtlety of thought. But certain European nations from which much of classical musical originated also gave us the human atrocities of the 30's and 40's. Not much "subtlety of thought" involved in trying to exterminate a large segment of the world's population. No it's not. It's saying what it says -- that people who listen to outrageously loud music, simply for the beat, are not people with any taste judgment that should be respected vis-a-vis music. The loud part I'm not keen on but I'd be more inclined to find credible someone who "understands" a wide gamut of music. Different people listen to different music for different things. A person "boppin' to the beat" isn't _listening_ to the muisc. You seem to be oblivious to the concept that different kinds of music fulfill different roles. By the way, as far as "subtlety of music" - it isn't limited to the realms of classical and jazz. Think you've got the chops to stand on stage with a good bluegrass band? Ever heard Alison Krauss and Union Station? |
#40
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Why is live sound always, always so #^@!%! loud?
William Sommerwerck wrote:
The post-War generation's general inability to sit quietly and listen attentively to music with some degree of subtlety (this includes a lot of jazz) is indicative of a society that has rejected subtlety of thought. I think you are confusing cause and effect here. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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