Hey all,

I play on a praise team at a local church. The soundman is one of the worst
I've ever heard. I'm not sure if he's told to mix a certain way, or if he's
just plain bad and they are too scared to do anything about it. Anyway, the
church has a Yamaha DM2000. I've been a recording musician for some time,
and I know a little bit about live sound. I certainly feel like i have the
ears for it. Anyway, the church records the services live to CD, and this
board mix is absolutely DREADFUL. (His housemix is horrid also). But I was
wondering if it is possible to somehow come out of this board into another
one that handles the "board tape mix"? That way we can handle a board mix,
totally independent of his BAD mix. Where if he has the drums really low, I
can bring them up hotter and it have no effect on his house sound? That if
he SUPER limits EVERYTHING, I can have a signal indepenant of his
butchering? Or is the advice to simply fire the sound man. To independent
him further, I'd be happy to post samples of his record mixes. They are
hilariously bad. And he runs a $75,000 PA. Nice.

can anyone help me out? What info do YOU need to better give ME advice on
how to approach the situation? I really appreciate it!

Jason
(change the"at" to @ when replying to me directly)

Following up on what Mike said- Chances are pretty good that what is
being recorded is simply what is going through the board to the PA-
and that what goes through the PA, plus whatever is coming from the
stage, is what is heard in the house. When I am in this situation, I
will do everything I can to discourage anyone from recording my board
mix. All it can possibly do is needlessly undermine people's
confidence in the house mix. A recording of this mix will NEVER sound
good.

You may be absolutely right right that the guy stinks- how would I
know? But, it could also be that you are judging his mixes based on a
misguided set of criteria.

R

In article ,
(R Tyck) wrote:

Following up on what Mike said- Chances are pretty good that what is
being recorded is simply what is going through the board to the PA-
and that what goes through the PA, plus whatever is coming from the
stage, is what is heard in the house. When I am in this situation, I
will do everything I can to discourage anyone from recording my board
mix. All it can possibly do is needlessly undermine people's
confidence in the house mix. A recording of this mix will NEVER sound
good.

You may be absolutely right right that the guy stinks- how would I
know? But, it could also be that you are judging his mixes based on a
misguided set of criteria.

R

the Dm2K has enough ability to send at least a dozen independent mixes
there is no reason the house mix needs to go to the recorder
George

In article writes:

the Dm2K has enough ability to send at least a dozen independent mixes
there is no reason the house mix needs to go to the recorder

Other than that this is all the operator knows how to do. Churches are
often like that - someone buys the equipment, sets it up, and then
leaves it for someone else to operate, someone who may have a little
musical experience, but probably no system engineering experience.

It should be simple enough to set up a recording mix on a stereo
auxiliary send pair, and with a push of the correct button, have the
main controls (faders, pans, and EQs) control that mix. Once the
operator gets the house mix settled to the point where he can leave it
alone for a while, he can switch the console surface into the
"recording" mode and set up a recording mix. For things like vocals
that change a lot, he can link those channels to the faders
controlling the house mix, so when he switches back to controlling the
house (after all, this is his primary responsibity) after getting a
recording mix going, riding gain on vocals in the house will make
similar adjustments in the recording.

But you gotta know how to set it up, and which buttons to press to
control what. You don't want to hear feedback, turn down every fader
on the board, and discover that you've just shut off the recording
mix.

A digital console in a situation like this is a mixed blessing. It's
great for pre-setting for different recurring situations, but it's
risky for mixing live shows when the operator doesn't really
understand how it works.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1087910080k@trad...

In article
writes:

the Dm2K has enough ability to send at least a dozen independent mixes
there is no reason the house mix needs to go to the recorder

Other than that this is all the operator knows how to do. Churches are
often like that - someone buys the equipment, sets it up, and then
leaves it for someone else to operate, someone who may have a little
musical experience, but probably no system engineering experience.

It should be simple enough to set up a recording mix on a stereo
auxiliary send pair, and with a push of the correct button, have the
main controls (faders, pans, and EQs) control that mix. Once the
operator gets the house mix settled to the point where he can leave it
alone for a while, he can switch the console surface into the
"recording" mode and set up a recording mix. For things like vocals
that change a lot, he can link those channels to the faders
controlling the house mix, so when he switches back to controlling the
house (after all, this is his primary responsibity) after getting a
recording mix going, riding gain on vocals in the house will make
similar adjustments in the recording.

But you gotta know how to set it up, and which buttons to press to
control what. You don't want to hear feedback, turn down every fader
on the board, and discover that you've just shut off the recording
mix.

A digital console in a situation like this is a mixed blessing. It's
great for pre-setting for different recurring situations, but it's
risky for mixing live shows when the operator doesn't really
understand how it works.


--

Well then I will offer them my LX7 /24 and 5000$ in exchange for thier DM2K
I'd just like them to get a desk tthat they can understand
I just got a dm1K and am really hooked on all the stuff I can do(without 6
tons of support gear)
I'm lovin' it!
George


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.706 / Virus Database: 462 - Release Date: 6/14/2004

Funny... our sound man sits back there and barely presses a button. It looks
like he's half asleep. He's not "mixing" or even TRYING to mix. If he were
trying, he'd be working his ass off. And If I were him, I'd lose sleep
knowing the "board mixes" were that awful and it was somehow my fault.

j


"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1087910080k@trad...

In article
writes:

the Dm2K has enough ability to send at least a dozen independent mixes
there is no reason the house mix needs to go to the recorder

Other than that this is all the operator knows how to do. Churches are
often like that - someone buys the equipment, sets it up, and then
leaves it for someone else to operate, someone who may have a little
musical experience, but probably no system engineering experience.

It should be simple enough to set up a recording mix on a stereo
auxiliary send pair, and with a push of the correct button, have the
main controls (faders, pans, and EQs) control that mix. Once the
operator gets the house mix settled to the point where he can leave it
alone for a while, he can switch the console surface into the
"recording" mode and set up a recording mix. For things like vocals
that change a lot, he can link those channels to the faders
controlling the house mix, so when he switches back to controlling the
house (after all, this is his primary responsibity) after getting a
recording mix going, riding gain on vocals in the house will make
similar adjustments in the recording.

But you gotta know how to set it up, and which buttons to press to
control what. You don't want to hear feedback, turn down every fader
on the board, and discover that you've just shut off the recording
mix.

A digital console in a situation like this is a mixed blessing. It's
great for pre-setting for different recurring situations, but it's
risky for mixing live shows when the operator doesn't really
understand how it works.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:08:15 GMT, Jpop Rockus wrote:
Hey guys.

Yes, the DM2000 is a killer board. It's not the problem. The inability to
properly run it IS the problem. Let me gather some info on exactly how we
have things set up now and get back to you. I do know that to make things
even more complicated, everyone on stage (Probl 20+ people) are all using
headphones as monitors. We use these Audio Technica personal mixers on
stands so that each person can SOMEWHAT dial in their own mix. Usually, it
sounds like crap too, but it's good enough.

Part of the problem is, the room is huge. The stage is big too. They need a
curtain behind the stage to cover up that HUGE wall of drywall. That will
deaden the sound a ton. PLUS, I think they are going to buy a plexiglass
drum cage.

I'm afraid the curtain won't do what you expect it to.

Go on over to Ethan Winer's page and absorb all you can about sound
treatment. Pun intended.

A plexiglass cage DOES limit some of the direct sound, but the sound
will merely bounce off the plexi, then bounce back off the wall.

Headphones as monitors? On stage? Ummmmm . . . .

Here's a real simple rule that's served me well for over twenty years of
live performance:

To get a good sound, FIRST, you need to sound good.

The first thing your praise team needs is to figure out how to sound to
to itself.

Individual monitors are a GREAT luxury if you have 'em. BUT, the best
monitor in the Universe can't make you sound better than you sound.

I've heard great sound with no monitors, and lousy sound with the best
monitors money could buy. I blame both on the players.

The team needs to get a handle on their stage sound. The reflective
surface is a fact of life that you have to learn to deal with.

For much less than a curtain, you can hang 4" rigid fibreglass panels
from the upstage wall up to about 8' or so. Cover them with any fabric
you can blow through for a "finished" appearance--loose canvas works.
That will help tame the direct reflections from the live drums.

But without an a priori handle on their own sound, there's not much that
can be done FoH to improve things.

Sorry your really between a rock and a hard place
how did you end up with a desk like the DM2K without someone having the
confidence and experiance to properly operate it
seems like you would have been better served with a gl3300
a split snake and a second gl 3300 for recording/media feed
and it still would have cost less
Water under the bridge I guess
but you should call the consultant that designed the project and have
them provide the in depth training (several sessions ) to get the value
out of the money he spent on you
If I was the contractor , that is what I'd be doing
making sure you get so much out of your system it is the envy of the
community
instead of the emperiors new clothes
if your dealer , consultant or contractor will not help , yamaha has
feild customer service folks for just these kind of problems
address and contact info should be in the manuals or visit yamah on line
Peace
george

Headphones as monitors? On stage? Ummmmm . . . .

Yep. In ear monitors, with these "mixer pods" set up everywhere to plug our
headphones into. I can't recall who makes them. I'll look tonight. If I need
more male vocal, I turn it up (it's almost all grouped). If want nothing but
guitars, I turn everything else off but guitars. You can forget about
hearing bass though. That's a problem. The frequencey is too low and you
can't hear it. I wonder, can the soundman send me a bass signal that has
mostly mid-high's so I can actually HEAR it without sending that same signal
to the house?? I don't need to feel the low end fullness in my headphones, I
need to hear what I'm playing. Dig? Right now, as with the house mix, the
bass is so sub-sonic you can't make out a single note the bass player plays.
It's quiet too.


The team needs to get a handle on their stage sound. The reflective
surface is a fact of life that you have to learn to deal with.


On stage, it's all drums. Everyone is turned down very low. We're not at all
loud. But the sanctuary hears all of us and stage volume drums because he
won't bring any thru the mains. But on STAGE we get along just fine w/ stage
vol drums. Does that make sense?

For much less than a curtain, you can hang 4" rigid fibreglass panels
from the upstage wall up to about 8' or so. Cover them with any fabric
you can blow through for a "finished" appearance--loose canvas works.
That will help tame the direct reflections from the live drums.

But without an a priori handle on their own sound, there's not much that
can be done FoH to improve things.

What does FoH mean? HA! Sorry. Maybe I'll take some pictures of our set up
and post them for you to see if you'd like?

Thanks!
Jason

They just built this $7million dollar church, and from what I was told... so
called "experts" came in a pitched to them what they needed and the church
went for it (to the tune of $75K). We're dealing with people that "think"
they know what they are doing who are calling the shots. In reality, they
really have NO CLUE. Then they bought it all from a large local dealer (that
eagerly took all their money) and had them come up and "set it up". They
came in and spent a few days getting it running and "training" the sound
guys. I think the church even sent the sound guy to a seminar (that did no
good). He came out of the seminar energized with one main thought, "That if
I'm too loud, we can be sued for it". Great. He really learned a lot then.
It really wouldn't have mattered what kind of equipment they purchased to be
honest. The sound in the old building was exactly the same if not worse...
and it was ran off some simple analog Mackie board. The problem isn't the
gear... is the doofas running it.

Right now, I'm trying get advice from people like you guys, so that I can
plan my attack so to speak. This split snake thing sounds like the way to
go. I've heard they have ordered a second "audio mixer". I'm hoping this is
what it's for. A separate feed. When that comes, I want to be involved first
hand. I want to be the one they train on how to get a good recording mix, so
that I can pass it along to the others.

Thanks!
J

"George" wrote in message
...
Sorry your really between a rock and a hard place
how did you end up with a desk like the DM2K without someone having the
confidence and experiance to properly operate it
seems like you would have been better served with a gl3300
a split snake and a second gl 3300 for recording/media feed
and it still would have cost less
Water under the bridge I guess
but you should call the consultant that designed the project and have
them provide the in depth training (several sessions ) to get the value
out of the money he spent on you
If I was the contractor , that is what I'd be doing
making sure you get so much out of your system it is the envy of the
community
instead of the emperiors new clothes
if your dealer , consultant or contractor will not help , yamaha has
feild customer service folks for just these kind of problems
address and contact info should be in the manuals or visit yamah on line
Peace
george

George wrote
the Dm2K has enough ability to send at least a dozen independent mixes
there is no reason the house mix needs to go to the recorder
George

Yeah- Of course the board is capable- that isn't the issue. The issue
is that the mix sounds really bad, and it seems to sound bad in a
fashion that might indicate that the recorded mix is simply the audio
that's passing through the board on its way to the house.

That said, if the guy truly is having a tough time getting the house
mix right, having him try to set up a concurrent recording mix seems
like a bad idea. Either split the mics, get another board and have
someone else mix the recording, or record the raw tracks to multitrack
and mix it post worship. Then the original poster himself could do it
if he wanted to.

R

or mix it for recording and send that mix to the house
if it is really that bad then a decent recording mix should be a
improvment in the house as well
George

That is the TOTAL TRUTH buddy!! The guy running the house mix has NO
BUSINESS running the record mix. Which is why if they get this other mixer
they are talking about, I want my hands on it from day one. I play w/ the
band on a rotating schedule, so I can't always be the one running the board
(I wish).

can someone give me an idea of how "splitting the mics" work?? Running two
snakes, etc? I need to understand that more. Does it get split out of the
Yamaha or the snake?

Also, they talked like they wanted to get recording equipment. For now, I
have strongly urged them not to. I told them that they may have the tools
they need right now to improve their record mixes. That before they go
buying whatever to record to... they need to first prove they can actually
run a real PA.

I don't think they realize how much time is needed to master both the live
mix and recording process. Since I know way more about recording, that
should SURELY give me a massive heart attack! The frustration level would be
at an all time high!

Tell me, one guy was saying you can optically come out of the board to some
"cards" into a computer of some kind. Is that true? I've never worked w/ a
recording set up stemming from a live rig. I use a Mac and a Digi 002r. But
in this case, we're dealing w/ at least 32 tracks of live audio. Maybe less
if we group stuff. And a lot of stuff doesn't even have to go to tape if we
could retrack it. But to them, the stage is their "room". They think that
guys could recut vocals standing on stage, etc. It's a joke. They need a
ROOM for that. If they want to spend tons of money on recording equip just
to get a better record mix, then they are seriously wasting their money.

Also, is it possible to send a totally uneffected, dry, flat mix from the
main house mixer to a secondary mixer? That way I'm not mixing stuff that
he's already mixed? Like, if he keeps the house drums low, *I* can boost
them on my end. And if he brings something way up in the mix, It will have
no effect on *my* fader setting, etc? Or is that why you need two feeds?
THAT being said, when you say, 'Record the raw tracks"... can that be done
without buying a separate mixer? Can the outs be fed to the recording gear,
unprocessed, for mixing later?? That might be cool though. Could also be a
gigantic time killer too. They like to move quickly and spit these CD's out
for worship team reference, etc. They don't have two nights of mixing to
spare.

Thanks guys

j


"R Tyck" wrote in message
om...
George wrote
the Dm2K has enough ability to send at least a dozen independent mixes
there is no reason the house mix needs to go to the recorder
George

Yeah- Of course the board is capable- that isn't the issue. The issue
is that the mix sounds really bad, and it seems to sound bad in a
fashion that might indicate that the recorded mix is simply the audio
that's passing through the board on its way to the house.

That said, if the guy truly is having a tough time getting the house
mix right, having him try to set up a concurrent recording mix seems
like a bad idea. Either split the mics, get another board and have
someone else mix the recording, or record the raw tracks to multitrack
and mix it post worship. Then the original poster himself could do it
if he wanted to.

R

Jpop Rockus wrote:

can someone give me an idea of how "splitting the mics" work?? Running two
snakes, etc? I need to understand that more. Does it get split out of the
Yamaha or the snake?


The concept here is using a snake that has splitters in it. In addition
to the mic inputs, it's got two or three outputs. These are usually
transformer balanced, and can cost mucho bucks.

The better idea, as stated by another poster, is to use one of the other
mixes that the Yamaha can provide.

I've never been in a church "band". (I tend to prefer pipe organs and
such.) But I've been involved in these kinds of "volunteer" situations.
The general rule is,
"No good deed goes unpunished".


Good luck,

Don

Jpop Rockus wrote:

What does FoH mean?


Front of house.


Don

So, that Yamaha is able to provide a house mix, and a totally separate
record mix... both independent of each other, at the same time?

Thanks Don!
j

"Don Cooper" wrote in message
...


Jpop Rockus wrote:

can someone give me an idea of how "splitting the mics" work?? Running
two
snakes, etc? I need to understand that more. Does it get split out of
the
Yamaha or the snake?


The concept here is using a snake that has splitters in it. In addition
to the mic inputs, it's got two or three outputs. These are usually
transformer balanced, and can cost mucho bucks.

The better idea, as stated by another poster, is to use one of the other
mixes that the Yamaha can provide.

I've never been in a church "band". (I tend to prefer pipe organs and
such.) But I've been involved in these kinds of "volunteer" situations.
The general rule is,
"No good deed goes unpunished".


Good luck,

Don

Jpop Rockus wrote:

He came out of the seminar energized with one main thought, "That if
I'm too loud, we can be sued for it".


I thought it was, "If it's too loud, you're too old."



Don

In article 3IZBc.95593$0y.31494@attbi_s03 writes:

Part of the problem is, the room is huge. The stage is big too. They need a
curtain behind the stage to cover up that HUGE wall of drywall. That will
deaden the sound a ton. PLUS, I think they are going to buy a plexiglass
drum cage. The curtain will come later because it's expensive. The sound man
keep the mix down too low. That and the mix is really bad anyway.

This sounds like a restaurant review I read once: "The food isn't very
good, but the portions are small."

He is
battling the stage volume of the drums too. So, what he does is he doesn't
bring the drums thru the house

Sounds to me like he's trying to do the right thing but has a
difficult source to work with.

He needs to bring more of
the drums thru the PA, dial in the bass better, then bring EVERYONE up more.
Right now, it's not even in the ballpark of loud.

Sounds like you just need to sit with him and try to get a decent mix.
Maybe you can and he'll get the idea, but maybe you can't either. Hard
to say without being there.

When they play a special
music song where a singer will sing to a CD, that CD sounds KILLER. So, I
know that the PA CAN sound good. I think it all starts with those drums.

How's the drummer? Does he listen to what else is going on?

I do know that church politics are at play too.

That's often a problem.

Then there is the whole
issue where the soundman we have now IS very loyal and IS there ALL the
time. For FREE basically. He's done it for 5 years.

Is this his only sound gig? It's hard to learn very much, even in five
years, if you only work once a week.

And I think he has them somewhat held hostage. he refuses to let anyone help
him mix (probl because he doesn't want to expose the fact that he really
doesn't know what he's doing).

Nothing will solve that problem except perhaps an accident. He can't
mix with two broken arms. g

They don't have anyone else to take his place
when he gets mad and quits.

If the church has indeed grown, perhaps they can hire someone rather
than depending on what they get for free. I know they don't like doing
things like that, but if the congregation (not just you) is unhappy
with the sound, they're the ones paying the bills.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Jason Sheroan wrote:

So, that Yamaha is able to provide a house mix, and a totally separate
record mix... both independent of each other, at the same time?

Thanks Don!


I take no credit for the suggestion. Mike Rivers made it.

But that's what you can do with the sends. They're designed to send
level to external deices (effects, etc.) and set up other mixes.

As Mike said, perhaps the vocals can follow the house mix (or at least
be set up post-fader, so they'll track with it).

Do you have documentation on the mixer? If not, download some ASAP.


Don

Figured I'd give you guys an update.

It appears that Sr. Leadership WANTS that "flat" house mix. That the company
they purchased the sound system from came up and trained the guys, plus
dialed in a killer mix. But for some reason, leadership afraid that the
change would scare some of the older, loyal congregation away. So, they want
the mix to be all vocals, and little drums. I'm still pretty convinced that
the soundman only knows how to do what he needs to do to get by. And though
he IS following orders, I'm not at all sold that he's a good sound man. But
we'll worry about that later.

The second thing is that they ARE feeding a totally different mix from
within the board, to a "record mix". But the problem is that no one can
really hear how it sounds. They have to make adjustments based on the weeks
prior performance. No bass? Then turn it up and see what happens. But the
problem with this is that the players all rotate and change! I like to run
my bass wide open. Others roll off highs and lows, suck mid's, etc. Some
drummers have different touch, acoustic players... some play hard some soft.
So I can see how this is really a big battle for them.

The goal is build an isolation booth and feed that room the mix so that
someone can actually sit there and dial the board mix in. That will make
things MUCH better.

Other problems they are hoping to address is the super loud room and stage,
and to get plexiglass around the drum kit. The long term goal is to deaden
up that stage as much as possible. The state is basically the size of a
small or highschool auditorium. So, it's pretty big. The room is HUGE and
Cavernous too. That doesn't help. But they are working towards trying to
dial it in.

Thanks for the advice though guys. They were very helpful as usual!

Jason




"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1087942951k@trad...

In article 3IZBc.95593$0y.31494@attbi_s03 writes:

Part of the problem is, the room is huge. The stage is big too. They
need a
curtain behind the stage to cover up that HUGE wall of drywall. That
will
deaden the sound a ton. PLUS, I think they are going to buy a plexiglass
drum cage. The curtain will come later because it's expensive. The sound
man
keep the mix down too low. That and the mix is really bad anyway.

This sounds like a restaurant review I read once: "The food isn't very
good, but the portions are small."

He is
battling the stage volume of the drums too. So, what he does is he
doesn't
bring the drums thru the house

Sounds to me like he's trying to do the right thing but has a
difficult source to work with.

He needs to bring more of
the drums thru the PA, dial in the bass better, then bring EVERYONE up
more.
Right now, it's not even in the ballpark of loud.

Sounds like you just need to sit with him and try to get a decent mix.
Maybe you can and he'll get the idea, but maybe you can't either. Hard
to say without being there.

When they play a special
music song where a singer will sing to a CD, that CD sounds KILLER. So,
I
know that the PA CAN sound good. I think it all starts with those drums.

How's the drummer? Does he listen to what else is going on?

I do know that church politics are at play too.

That's often a problem.

Then there is the whole
issue where the soundman we have now IS very loyal and IS there ALL the
time. For FREE basically. He's done it for 5 years.

Is this his only sound gig? It's hard to learn very much, even in five
years, if you only work once a week.

And I think he has them somewhat held hostage. he refuses to let anyone
help
him mix (probl because he doesn't want to expose the fact that he really
doesn't know what he's doing).

Nothing will solve that problem except perhaps an accident. He can't
mix with two broken arms. g

They don't have anyone else to take his place
when he gets mad and quits.

If the church has indeed grown, perhaps they can hire someone rather
than depending on what they get for free. I know they don't like doing
things like that, but if the congregation (not just you) is unhappy
with the sound, they're the ones paying the bills.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Figured I'd give you guys an update.

It appears that Sr. Leadership WANTS that "flat" house mix. That the company
they purchased the sound system from came up and trained the guys, plus
dialed in a killer mix. But for some reason, leadership afraid that the
change would scare some of the older, loyal congregation away. So, they want
the mix to be all vocals, and little drums. I'm still pretty convinced that
the soundman only knows how to do what he needs to do to get by. And though
he IS following orders, I'm not at all sold that he's a good sound man. But
we'll worry about that later.

The second thing is that they ARE feeding a totally different mix from
within the board, to a "record mix". But the problem is that no one can
really hear how it sounds. They have to make adjustments based on the weeks
prior performance. No bass? Then turn it up and see what happens. But the
problem with this is that the players all rotate and change! I like to run
my bass wide open. Others roll off highs and lows, suck mid's, etc. Some
drummers have different touch, acoustic players... some play hard some soft.
So I can see how this is really a big battle for them.

The goal is build an isolation booth and feed that room the mix so that
someone can actually sit there and dial the board mix in. That will make
things MUCH better.

Other problems they are hoping to address is the super loud room and stage,
and to get plexiglass around the drum kit. The long term goal is to deaden
up that stage as much as possible. The state is basically the size of a
small or highschool auditorium. So, it's pretty big. The room is HUGE and
Cavernous too. That doesn't help. But they are working towards trying to
dial it in.

Thanks for the advice though guys. They were very helpful as usual!

Jason




"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1087942951k@trad...

In article 3IZBc.95593$0y.31494@attbi_s03 writes:

Part of the problem is, the room is huge. The stage is big too. They
need a
curtain behind the stage to cover up that HUGE wall of drywall. That
will
deaden the sound a ton. PLUS, I think they are going to buy a plexiglass
drum cage. The curtain will come later because it's expensive. The sound
man
keep the mix down too low. That and the mix is really bad anyway.

This sounds like a restaurant review I read once: "The food isn't very
good, but the portions are small."

He is
battling the stage volume of the drums too. So, what he does is he
doesn't
bring the drums thru the house

Sounds to me like he's trying to do the right thing but has a
difficult source to work with.

He needs to bring more of
the drums thru the PA, dial in the bass better, then bring EVERYONE up
more.
Right now, it's not even in the ballpark of loud.

Sounds like you just need to sit with him and try to get a decent mix.
Maybe you can and he'll get the idea, but maybe you can't either. Hard
to say without being there.

When they play a special
music song where a singer will sing to a CD, that CD sounds KILLER. So,
I
know that the PA CAN sound good. I think it all starts with those drums.

How's the drummer? Does he listen to what else is going on?

I do know that church politics are at play too.

That's often a problem.

Then there is the whole
issue where the soundman we have now IS very loyal and IS there ALL the
time. For FREE basically. He's done it for 5 years.

Is this his only sound gig? It's hard to learn very much, even in five
years, if you only work once a week.

And I think he has them somewhat held hostage. he refuses to let anyone
help
him mix (probl because he doesn't want to expose the fact that he really
doesn't know what he's doing).

Nothing will solve that problem except perhaps an accident. He can't
mix with two broken arms. g

They don't have anyone else to take his place
when he gets mad and quits.

If the church has indeed grown, perhaps they can hire someone rather
than depending on what they get for free. I know they don't like doing
things like that, but if the congregation (not just you) is unhappy
with the sound, they're the ones paying the bills.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article 2YYCc.96265$Hg2.80401@attbi_s04 writes:

leadership afraid that the
change would scare some of the older, loyal congregation away. So, they want
the mix to be all vocals, and little drums.

Churches are sometimes like that. They don't really want the "devil's
music" in there, but they know that it gets the kids to come because
they can play in the band.

I'm still pretty convinced that
the soundman only knows how to do what he needs to do to get by. And though
he IS following orders, I'm not at all sold that he's a good sound man.

Not much you can do since those who hired him seem to think that he's
giving them what they want to hear.

The second thing is that they ARE feeding a totally different mix from
within the board, to a "record mix". But the problem is that no one can
really hear how it sounds.

Give him a set of headphones and plug them into the headphone jack on
the recorder. Headphones aren't a very good way to mix, but at least
he'll have a clue as to what's being recorded before the end of the
set.

The goal is build an isolation booth and feed that room the mix so that
someone can actually sit there and dial the board mix in. That will make
things MUCH better.

And just who might that be? Sounds like you have vast ideas with a
half vast leadership. I don't see that there will be a lot of
improvement.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article 2YYCc.96265$Hg2.80401@attbi_s04 writes:

leadership afraid that the
change would scare some of the older, loyal congregation away. So, they want
the mix to be all vocals, and little drums.

Churches are sometimes like that. They don't really want the "devil's
music" in there, but they know that it gets the kids to come because
they can play in the band.

I'm still pretty convinced that
the soundman only knows how to do what he needs to do to get by. And though
he IS following orders, I'm not at all sold that he's a good sound man.

Not much you can do since those who hired him seem to think that he's
giving them what they want to hear.

The second thing is that they ARE feeding a totally different mix from
within the board, to a "record mix". But the problem is that no one can
really hear how it sounds.

Give him a set of headphones and plug them into the headphone jack on
the recorder. Headphones aren't a very good way to mix, but at least
he'll have a clue as to what's being recorded before the end of the
set.

The goal is build an isolation booth and feed that room the mix so that
someone can actually sit there and dial the board mix in. That will make
things MUCH better.

And just who might that be? Sounds like you have vast ideas with a
half vast leadership. I don't see that there will be a lot of
improvement.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo