"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

They (religions) are just another kind of flawed human institutions.

Well, today must be a special day.
I agree with you (again!).

And yet Sander you claim that it is I who is merely limping along.

Strange.

"Arny Krueger" said:

They (religions) are just another kind of flawed human institutions.

Well, today must be a special day.
I agree with you (again!).

And yet Sander you claim that it is I who is merely limping along.

Here's some flawed science for you:
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Strange.

LOL! ;-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

Lionel wrote in message
Sander deWaal wrote:
Arny Krueger said:


What good did religion in general bring to the world?


Since the word religion is so general, it need not have brought anything in
particular.


It's much easier to sum up the bad that religion brought upon us,
don't you think? ;-)

This sounds like an HiFi thread started by a guy which has never
listened anything else but his walkman. :-)



Lionel, it'sss time to lend us some thoughts about your experiences with the
truth...... ;o)?

JBorg wrote:
Lionel wrote in message
Sander deWaal wrote:

Arny Krueger said:


What good did religion in general bring to the world?


Since the word religion is so general, it need not have brought anything in
particular.


It's much easier to sum up the bad that religion brought upon us,
don't you think? ;-)

This sounds like an HiFi thread started by a guy which has never
listened anything else but his walkman. :-)




Lionel, it'sss time to lend us some thoughts about your experiences with the
truth...... ;o)?

I'm too lazy to live such experience. :-(
What about you ?

"Lionel" wrote
JBorg wrote:




Lionel, it'sss time to lend us some thoughts about your experiences with the
truth...... ;o)?


I'm too lazy to live such experience. :-(

Is it because it seldom exist where you're at ?


What about you ?


It comes and go over here.

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
(Blind Joni) said:

Believing in God, Allah or whatever deity scares me.
Religion changes people into racists and intolerant dogmatics.

Really..so all religious people throughout the ages were racists and
intolerant
dogmatics? Interesting that you would know this.

OK, let's turn it around then.
What good did religion in general bring to the world?

--
Christianity has been sort of up and down, but it was St. Thomas Aquinas who
was instrumental in launching the Renaissance. There were Jewish scholars
who were responsible for the translation of Aristotle's works.

Much of what we call fine art is religious in nature or financed by the
Vatican.

Probably most important was the spreading of an ethical system, albeit a
flawed one.

Missionary work has spread literacy to places far and wide.

Sander deWaal wrote:


"Arny Krueger" said:

They (religions) are just another kind of flawed human institutions.

Well, today must be a special day.
I agree with you (again!).

And yet Sander you claim that it is I who is merely limping along.

Here's some flawed science for you:
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Strange.

LOL! ;-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "



A cuckoo clock.



Bruce J. Richman

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:39:27 +0100, Sander deWaal
wrote:

(Blind Joni) said:

Believing in God, Allah or whatever deity scares me.
Religion changes people into racists and intolerant dogmatics.

Really..so all religious people throughout the ages were racists and intolerant
dogmatics? Interesting that you would know this.

OK, let's turn it around then.
What good did religion in general bring to the world?

Abolitionism. Came by way of the Second Great Awakening in the 1830s,
and before that from the Quakers.

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:56:02 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:


"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
.. .
(Blind Joni) said:

Believing in God, Allah or whatever deity scares me.
Religion changes people into racists and intolerant dogmatics.

Really..so all religious people throughout the ages were racists and
intolerant
dogmatics? Interesting that you would know this.

OK, let's turn it around then.
What good did religion in general bring to the world?

--
Christianity has been sort of up and down, but it was St. Thomas Aquinas who
was instrumental in launching the Renaissance. There were Jewish scholars
who were responsible for the translation of Aristotle's works.

Much of what we call fine art is religious in nature or financed by the
Vatican.

E.g. Ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, Last Supper, much of Bach, Notre
Dame, The Odyssey of Homer.

"Paul Dormer" wrote in message
...
"Michael McKelvy" emitted :

It's a perception I don't share.
that perception which gave birth to
what we now know as the environmental movement.

There are still some kinds of science that are perceived as good, stem
cell
research, eco-science are some examples.

What the ****ing hell are you talking about?? Environmentalism doesn't
mean "anti-science" you moron..


It means junk science.

....Phrases
like we can put a man on the Moon but we can't find a cure for Cancer
didn't
help much either.

I still think that it wouldn't take much to change that perception...

Finding a cure for cancer would be a good starting point.

The work goes on.

Arny said:

Yet after Cain kills Abel and is cast out of Eden, he complains to
God that everyone who sees him will want to kill him. Uh, at that
point in time, there are three people on the entire planet.

OK, we've got a theological expert named Marc Phillips that believes that if

someone is not specifically mentioned in the Bible, they dont' exist.

So Adam and Eve had two children, and one killed the other, leaving one. So in
your religion, 1+1+1 does not equal 3. 1+1+1= 3 + an unknown amount which is
not specifically mentioned. Makes as much sense as anything else in the Bible,
I suppose.

BTW, I asked a minister to answer the same question once. His answer was only
marginally less lame than yours, involving some theory unmentioned in the Bible
that once the Garden of Eden was created, God created other planned communities
around the world. Of course this explanation blows, because your religion is
supposedly based upon what is contained in the Bible, yet goes sloppily beyond
the borders, desperately in search of plausibility, whenever convenient.


Who is "everyone"?

All the people who were there, but not named specifically. You know, like
the jillions of people who were killed by Noah's flood. The people who built

the Tower of Babel. etc., etc.

I'd like to see the chapter and verse where "jillions" were killed in the Tower
of Babel. Or, of course, you are welcome to keep making things up to defend
your religion. That seems to be the motto.

Boon

Are you a Bon Jovi fan?

He tried to snag my girlfriend in 1985...
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

If we are dealing with the universe, black holes, varying
dimensions.etc..who
the heck knows?

Jee try to kep track of what is being talked about before jumping in. We are
talking about creationism and the rationality of believing in it.

Yessss. I know that.


What exactly are you babbling about? Do you think science has made no
discoveries about the nature of the universe? Do you believe everything that
you don't understand or know about is universally incomprehensable?

Just the opposite.there are plenty of things that we "knew" a few years ago
that now we "know" differently. To quote Tommy Lee Jones to Will Smith in
MIB...
"1500 years ago everyone KNEW the Earth was the center of the universe...500
years ago everyone KNEW the Earth was flat....what do you think we will KNOW
tomorrow?"
Point is that it is arrogant to think we know waht cannot be proven or
disproven..stupid arguement for arguements sake. It seems some want to make a
case for a theory that matches their own..and then criticize others for doing
the same thing..interesting.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

So Adam and Eve had two children, and one killed the other, leaving one. So
in
your religion, 1+1+1 does not equal 3. 1+1+1= 3 + an unknown amount which is
not specifically mentioned.

I'm not defending the literal story but Adam and Eve were told to have many
children...over hundreds of years.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

It's much easier to sum up the bad that religion brought upon us,
don't you think? ;-)

--

Easier to find information on..just like the news of today..how much of that is
good news?


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

"S888Wheel" wrote in message
...
From: "Clyde Slick"
Date: 11/25/2004 7:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
news
Paul Dormer said:

"Trevor Wilson" emitted :

I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as
accurate.
Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml

I find those numbers scary.

Scary indeed, but not surprising.
Times are uncertain, and returning to biblical principles may be a
reaction to perceived Islamic danger.


No, I think the numbers would have been similar before 9/11
Once an evolutionist, its hard to go back to creationsism,
something you are absolutely sure is impossible.


And yet we clearly are going back as a nation. I doubt the numbers would
have
been anything like this in the early sixties when science was still seen
as a
good thing.

In thew 60's I had a neighbor who was a NASA scientist,
a Christian Scientist, and a firm beleiver in creatiobism.

No I don't think wee are going backwards, I Think the numbers
were about the same in the 60's. Remember, Evangelicism
took a big jump in the 60's.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Marc Phillips" wrote in message

John Chiara said:

Here's another one: Supposedly Adam and Eve were the first humans on
earth. And yet when their children grew up and moved out, they got
married. Where did those other people that Cain and Abel married
come from? Why wasn't their miraculous creation chronicled in The
Holy Booke?


I would assume if you believed the story..they married brothers and
sisters.nephews and nieces..etc...since Adam was told to live more
than 900 years.

Yet after Cain kills Abel and is cast out of Eden, he complains to
God that everyone who sees him will want to kill him. Uh, at that
point in time, there are three people on the entire planet.

OK, we've got a theological expert named Marc Phillips that believes that
if someone is not specifically mentioned in the Bible, they dont' exist.

Who is "everyone"?

All the people who were there, but not named specifically. You know, like
the jillions of people who were killed by Noah's flood.

**Jillions? The alleged 'Noah's Flood' was likely a localised event, around
the area of the Euphrates River. It probably killed a goodly number of
people (a dozen to a few hundred), but certainly didn't cover the entrie
planet, in the way described in the Bible.

The people who built
the Tower of Babel. etc., etc.

**Well, the Tower of Babel was probably another legend which was blown out
of all proportion.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

"JBorg" wrote in message
. com...

Trevor Wilson wrote


I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate.
Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



Our rational thoughts is constrained to our own experience and to those
authority we consider qualified to provide facts. I wonder what happen to
the guy who invented electricity. I won't be surprise if they consider
him
a big joke. It was beyond their experience of truth.

**I doubt that Voltaire was ever considered a "joke". Whilst always
controversial, he was highly regarded, then and now.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

JBorg wrote:
"Lionel" wrote

JBorg wrote:




Lionel, it'sss time to lend us some thoughts about your experiences with the
truth...... ;o)?


I'm too lazy to live such experience. :-(


Is it because it seldom exist where you're at ?

Who are you to suppose that some place on the earth could be more
favorised than others ?
I am always astonished by the uniqueness of the individual but also sure
of its perfect distribution. It's just a question of focal lenght.

What about you ?



It comes and go over here.

It's always here but sometime you just forget that it can be your.

Trevor Wilson wrote
JBorg wrote
Trevor Wilson wrote




I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate.
Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



Our rational thoughts is constrained to our own experience and to those
authority we consider qualified to provide facts. I wonder what happen to
the guy who invented electricity. I won't be surprise if they consider him a
big joke. It was beyond their experience of truth.

**I doubt that Voltaire was ever considered a "joke". Whilst always
controversial, he was highly regarded, then and now.


I don't think it was Voltaire but then, it's besides the point. Oh well then,
wouldn't you think though that your knowledge of known facts is
constrain to life's experiences as well as from those you consider
qualified to promote facts?


What would your reaction be to an individual claiming that Shakti
Stone is an effective electromagnetic stabilizer ?





--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

"Lionel" wrote
JBorg wrote:
"Lionel" wrote
JBorg wrote:




Lionel, it'sss time to lend us some thoughts about your experiences with the
truth...... ;o)?


I'm too lazy to live such experience. :-(


Is it because it seldom exist where you're at ?

Who are you to suppose that some place on the earth could be more favorised than
others ?

Well some towns, cities, and places on earth are ran by thugs, cutthroats,
and con.


I am always astonished by the uniqueness of the individual but also sure of its
perfect distribution. It's just a question of focal lenght.

If your referring to McKelvy and Arnii, yes. Both have equal focal lenght
of history with false claims and misrepresentation at Rao.


What about you ?


It comes and go over here.

It's always here but sometime you just forget that it can be your.

That would denial, Lionel. It does you no good.

Seize it, and it sets you free.

George M. Middius wrote
JBorg said:




I don't think it was Voltaire but then, it's besides the point. Oh well then,
wouldn't you think though that your knowledge of known facts is
constrain to life's experiences as well as from those you consider
qualified to promulgate facts?



The latter category is quite expansive.


The latter category indeed may be expansive as individual's acceptance of
promulgated facts may vary according to his own judgment. It is conditional
to what he would consider and accept.


What type of reaction should be expected if an individual claims to you that
green ink pen painted around the edges of a compact disc enhances the
sound produce by his audio system ?

JBorg wrote:
"Lionel" wrote

JBorg wrote:

"Lionel" wrote

JBorg wrote:




Lionel, it'sss time to lend us some thoughts about your experiences with the
truth...... ;o)?


I'm too lazy to live such experience. :-(


Is it because it seldom exist where you're at ?

Who are you to suppose that some place on the earth could be more favorised than
others ?


Well some towns, cities, and places on earth are ran by thugs, cutthroats,
and con.


Like Sodom and Gomorrah ?


I am always astonished by the uniqueness of the individual but also sure of its
perfect distribution. It's just a question of focal lenght.


If your referring to McKelvy and Arnii, yes. Both have equal focal lenght
of history with false claims and misrepresentation at Rao.


Nobody in particular.
Everybody in general.


What about you ?


It comes and go over here.

It's always here but sometime you just forget that it can be your.


That would denial, Lionel.
It does you no good.

LOL !

Seize it, and it sets you free.

Is it delivered with a user manual ?

Lionel" wrote
JBorg wrote:
"Lionel" wrote
JBorg wrote:
"Lionel" wrote
JBorg wrote:




Who are you to suppose that some place on the earth could be more favorised
than others ?

Well some towns, cities, and places on earth are ran by thugs, cutthroats,
and con.


Like Sodom and Gomorrah ?


Yes. Is that something similar to where your at ?



I am always astonished by the uniqueness of the individual but also sure of its
perfect distribution. It's just a question of focal lenght.


If your referring to McKelvy and Arnii, yes. Both have equal focal lenght
of history with false claims and misrepresentation at Rao.

Nobody in particular.
Everybody in general.


You ought to know. You've been here and have seen them long enough.



That would denial, Lionel.
It does you no good.

LOL !

Seize it, and it sets you free.

Is it delivered with a user manual ?


No they come sets of little boxes planted with little seeds given to you once upon
you were a toddler.

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message

Arny said:

Yet after Cain kills Abel and is cast out of Eden, he complains to
God that everyone who sees him will want to kill him. Uh, at that
point in time, there are three people on the entire planet.

OK, we've got a theological expert named Marc Phillips that
believes that if

someone is not specifically mentioned in the Bible, they dont'
exist.

So Adam and Eve had two children, and one killed the other, leaving
one.

Obviously you can't fathom the meaning of my post. End of discussion.

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...


All the people who were there, but not named specifically. You know, like
the jillions of people who were killed by Noah's flood.

**Jillions? The alleged 'Noah's Flood' was likely a localised event,
around the area of the Euphrates River. It probably killed a goodly number
of people (a dozen to a few hundred), but certainly didn't cover the
entrie planet, in the way described in the Bible.

Why assume it happened at all?

JBorg wrote:
Lionel" wrote

JBorg wrote:

"Lionel" wrote
JBorg wrote:

"Lionel" wrote

JBorg wrote:





Who are you to suppose that some place on the earth could be more favorised
than others ?

Well some towns, cities, and places on earth are ran by thugs, cutthroats,
and con.


Like Sodom and Gomorrah ?



Yes. Is that something similar to where your at ?


Do you sincerely think that one can answer such question ?


I am always astonished by the uniqueness of the individual but also sure of its
perfect distribution. It's just a question of focal lenght.


If your referring to McKelvy and Arnii, yes. Both have equal focal lenght
of history with false claims and misrepresentation at Rao.

Nobody in particular.
Everybody in general.



You ought to know. You've been here and have seen them long enough.


I usually don't read what Arnold Krueger writes because I haven't enough
interest in audio devices.
But considering the tribune that the "Normals" use to offer him here, I
suspect that they find an interest in his contribution.

Idem McKelvy.


That would denial, Lionel.
It does you no good.

LOL !


Seize it, and it sets you free.

Is it delivered with a user manual ?



No they come sets of little boxes planted with little seeds given to you once upon
you were a toddler.

So... I guess that my gardener wasn't very professional.

Arny said:

"Marc Phillips" wrote in message

Arny said:

Yet after Cain kills Abel and is cast out of Eden, he complains to
God that everyone who sees him will want to kill him. Uh, at that
point in time, there are three people on the entire planet.

OK, we've got a theological expert named Marc Phillips that
believes that if

someone is not specifically mentioned in the Bible, they dont'
exist.

So Adam and Eve had two children, and one killed the other, leaving
one.

Obviously you can't fathom the meaning of my post. End of discussion.

Spoken like a true ostrich, er, I mean Christian.

LOL!

Boon

From: (Blind Joni)
Date: 11/29/2004 10:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

If we are dealing with the universe, black holes, varying
dimensions.etc..who
the heck knows?

Jee try to kep track of what is being talked about before jumping in. We are
talking about creationism and the rationality of believing in it.

Yessss. I know that.

Then why are you talking about black holes and varying dimensions (whatever you
might mean by varying dimensions)?




What exactly are you babbling about? Do you think science has made no
discoveries about the nature of the universe? Do you believe everything that
you don't understand or know about is universally incomprehensable?

Just the opposite.there are plenty of things that we "knew" a few years ago
that now we "know" differently.

That isn't the opposite of what I said.


To quote Tommy Lee Jones to Will Smith in
MIB...
"1500 years ago everyone KNEW the Earth was the center of the universe...500
years ago everyone KNEW the Earth was flat....what do you think we will KNOW
tomorrow?"

I suggest MIB is not a good source for science or philosophy.


Point is that it is arrogant to think we know waht cannot be proven or
disproven.

OK you think the scientific method is arrogant. I disagree. The fact is
crerationism makes very specific claims that are in direct conflict with
empirical evidence. I take that as proof that the creation myth did not
happen.You think that is arrogant that is your opinion. You would be way out of
step with just about every scientist on earth.

stupid arguement for arguements sake.

Hmmm calling something stupid based on a generalization. Thought you were
against that.

It seems some want to make a
case for a theory that matches their own..and then criticize others for doing
the same thing..interesting.

Hmm another argument based on a generalization. Maybe you should have never
jumped in.

Maybe he's talking about the unknown effects of a black hole on matter and
energy. Dimensions are the continua in which we measure things, and if the
laws of physics change -- which they most assuredly do within a black
hole's event horizon -- then one might say "varying dimensions" if one
meant "unpredictable results of measuring". Of course, this isn't how a
scientifically oriented person would refer to these unknown phenomena.


What he said!! I mean that many unknown things can/may happen under certain
circumstances that we may/may not know about yet..the same way we didn't know
about DNA, viruses..etc. It's not accurate to say that we "know."




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

Actually, could you trim yours a little less? The way you post, you can't
tell
who you're talking to.


I am trying to speak generally...not snipe at individuals..sorry.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

I think that if one tends to be irrational in one area, they may be in
others as well.


True in areas where the actual factsd are final and indisputable. Otherwise I
would say it is opinion.



John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

What type of reaction should be expected if an individual claims to you that
green ink pen painted around the edges of a compact disc enhances the
sound produce by his audio system ?

This can be objectively verified.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

"JBorg" wrote in message
. com

What type of reaction should be expected if an individual claims to
you that green ink pen painted around the edges of a compact disc
enhances the sound produce by his audio system ?

The experienced Usenet poster notices the overwhelming odor of trolling and
ignores or dismisses the post.

(Blind Joni) said:


I'm not defending the literal story but Adam and Eve were told to have many
children...over hundreds of years.

Why is there no mention of that in the Bible or in one of the other
books/documents that are left?

It's strange that the Bible sometimes gives very detailed information
about insignificant things, while other relevant information isn't
there.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

(Blind Joni) said:

It's much easier to sum up the bad that religion brought upon us,
don't you think? ;-)

Easier to find information on..just like the news of today..how much of that is
good news?

And what is the cause of most bad news today?

Hint: it isn't just Bush .

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

(Blind Joni) said:


I'm not defending the literal story but Adam and Eve were told to
have many children...over hundreds of years.

Why is there no mention of that in the Bible or in one of the other
books/documents that are left?

But there are by implication, for see Marc Phillips' comments about
apparent contradictions.

It's strange that the Bible sometimes gives very detailed information
about insignificant things, while other relevant information isn't there.

Deification of judgment call about what is important noted.

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:56:39 +0100, Sander deWaal
wrote:

(Blind Joni) said:

It's much easier to sum up the bad that religion brought upon us,
don't you think? ;-)

Easier to find information on..just like the news of today..how much of that is
good news?

And what is the cause of most bad news today?

Hint: it isn't just Bush .

Right. Most of the time, it boils down to lack of bush.

It *is* a male-dominated world, right? One day in the far future, it
might boil down to a lack of dick.

"Paul Dormer" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" emitted :

Yet after Cain kills Abel and is cast out of Eden, he complains
to God that everyone who sees him will want to kill him. Uh, at
that point in time, there are three people on the entire planet.

OK, we've got a theological expert named Marc Phillips that
believes that if

someone is not specifically mentioned in the Bible, they dont'
exist.

So Adam and Eve had two children, and one killed the other, leaving
one.

Obviously you can't fathom the meaning of my post. End of discussion.

Very Khristian attitude you got there..

Ignorance of The Sermon On The Mount, noted.

"Arny Krueger" said:

I'm not defending the literal story but Adam and Eve were told to
have many children...over hundreds of years.

Why is there no mention of that in the Bible or in one of the other
books/documents that are left?

But there are by implication, for see Marc Phillips' comments about
apparent contradictions.

How come you don't shout "prove it!" in church during sermon?

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "