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#1
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DI Box distorted through amp
OK, I know I'm going to I'm going to be hammered for asking something
so elementary, but as long as you educate me at the same time I can take it! I just got a Countryman DI box and it is the first time I've ever used DI. I got it mainly for recording my bass guitar direct and it certainly works as advertised. One thing I've never done with my guitar, though, is try to get my old Sunn Solaris amp into the mix. Too loud to mic it in this house when everyone is sleeping! I usually record through some amp modeler--hardware or software. So I thought I might run the speaker out from my Solaris to the Countryman and into my Fireface, just to see how that sounds. Well, it sounds just awful. There's a very unpleasant distortion (that appears to my untrained ears to be in the upper frequencies) almost like clipping. Someone years ago installed a master volume switch on the Solaris. Even with both volumes turned low--say 5 on the original volume and 2 on the master, the distortion is there. There are no clipping lights going off anywhere. I still get that "clipping" distortion sound even when I'm recording at levels so low I have to normalize the wave file to hear it. I've used the amp for years and it's always sounded great. So this is a little disappointing. Any insights would be greatly appreciated. Hey! Since I've made this dumb question day, let me go for a two-fer. The whole point of the DI through the amp idea is so I can record a screaming amp at low volumes. Hence, that means I certainly don't want to run the amp line-out from the DI back to the amp speaker. Will that hurt my amplifier or does the DI alone make my amp think a speaker is attached? Or should I just forget about this idea altogether? :-) Thanks, folks. |
#2
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DI Box distorted through amp
Hugh Verdam wrote:
OK, I know I'm going to I'm going to be hammered for asking something so elementary, but as long as you educate me at the same time I can take it! I just got a Countryman DI box and it is the first time I've ever used DI. I got it mainly for recording my bass guitar direct and it certainly works as advertised. One thing I've never done with my guitar, though, is try to get my old Sunn Solaris amp into the mix. Too loud to mic it in this house when everyone is sleeping! I usually record through some amp modeler--hardware or software. So I thought I might run the speaker out from my Solaris to the Countryman and into my Fireface, just to see how that sounds. Well, it sounds just awful. There's a very unpleasant distortion (that appears to my untrained ears to be in the upper frequencies) almost like clipping. Someone years ago installed a master volume switch on the Solaris. Even with both volumes turned low--say 5 on the original volume and 2 on the master, the distortion is there. There are no clipping lights going off anywhere. I still get that "clipping" distortion sound even when I'm recording at levels so low I have to normalize the wave file to hear it. I've used the amp for years and it's always sounded great. So this is a little disappointing. Any insights would be greatly appreciated. Hey! Since I've made this dumb question day, let me go for a two-fer. The whole point of the DI through the amp idea is so I can record a screaming amp at low volumes. Hence, that means I certainly don't want to run the amp line-out from the DI back to the amp speaker. Will that hurt my amplifier or does the DI alone make my amp think a speaker is attached? Or should I just forget about this idea altogether? :-) Thanks, folks. Are you powering this through phantom or a battery? |
#3
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DI Box distorted through amp
Hugh Verdam wrote: I thought I might run the speaker out from my Solaris to the Countryman and into my Fireface, just to see how that sounds. Well, it sounds just awful. There's a very unpleasant distortion (that appears to my untrained ears to be in the upper frequencies) almost like clipping. Someone years ago installed a master volume switch on the Solaris. Even with both volumes turned low--say 5 on the original volume and 2 on the master, the distortion is there. It's possible that with that switch you're getting clipping in the amplifier. Still, your basic problem is that the speaker output of the amplifier is considerably higher than the ouput level of a guitar pickup except at VERY low volume. Some DIs have a "speaker" input that has about a 20 dB attenuator ahead of it to bring the level into line with what the active circuitry or transformer in the DI expects. The whole point of the DI through the amp idea is so I can record a screaming amp at low volumes. Hence, that means I certainly don't want to run the amp line-out from the DI back to the amp speaker. Will that hurt my amplifier or does the DI alone make my amp think a speaker is attached? OK, just what are the outputs on your amplifier? Is there an output jack that goes to the speaker cabinet, and is that where you're plugging in the DI? With the speaker disconnected? If it's a tube amplifier, it really wants the load of a loudspeaker on it. Running without a speaker, particularly at the same settings you'd use with the speaker, will definitely change the sound, and could cause some damage to the amplifier. There's a gadget called "Power Soak" which is a dummy load that replaces the speaker that's designed to solve this problem. You can't just use a resistor from Radio Shack, it needs to handle all the power that the amplifier can put out. |
#4
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DI Box distorted through amp
I assume you're looking for a clean sound. Distortion sounds need lots
of high frequency attenuation to simulate the speaker sound, which is an important part of the sound (no flame please, I know speaker simulation is waaay more than just cutting highs, but at least this gives the idea). No speaker simulation would sound like harsh clipping. You could put the DI between the guitar and the amp and record clean gtr, then take that signal to the amp input and mike the amp, when people are awake/away, so you' d keep your amp sound. It's called "reamping" If you are willing to take the amplifier sound without the speaker sound to always have a "silent" setup then, as The Always Excellent Mike Rivers said, the level is probably way too loud. Can you do simple electronics? If the amp is solid state (as opposed to tubes), you could connect a the ends of a 5k potentiometer to the output of the amp, and your DI to one of the end + middle of the pot, to get a variable pad (works on amplifier output, on line or mic signal you'd loose high frequencies) (DI+)------------V (amp +) ------MMMMMM----------- (amp - AND DI -) |
#5
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DI Box distorted through amp
In article ,
Hugh Verdam wrote: OK, I know I'm going to I'm going to be hammered for asking something so elementary, but as long as you educate me at the same time I can take it! I just got a Countryman DI box and it is the first time I've ever used DI. I got it mainly for recording my bass guitar direct and it certainly works as advertised. One thing I've never done with my guitar, though, is try to get my old Sunn Solaris amp into the mix. Too loud to mic it in this house when everyone is sleeping! I usually record through some amp modeler--hardware or software. So I thought I might run the speaker out from my Solaris to the Countryman and into my Fireface, just to see how that sounds. Well, it sounds just awful. There's a very unpleasant distortion (that appears to my untrained ears to be in the upper frequencies) almost like clipping. Yes. That is what guitwr amps do. Someone years ago installed a master volume switch on the Solaris. Even with both volumes turned low--say 5 on the original volume and 2 on the master, the distortion is there. There are no clipping lights going off anywhere. I still get that "clipping" distortion sound even when I'm recording at levels so low I have to normalize the wave file to hear it. I've used the amp for years and it's always sounded great. So this is a little disappointing. Any insights would be greatly appreciated. That's because the speaker and the cabinet change that distorted sound into something that sounds good. The speaker and the cabinet are part of the instrument and where a lot of the tone comes from. The DIed feed is useful for a lot of things, including later reamping, but the DI is coming to you halfway in the middle of the instrument's signal path. The whole point of the DI through the amp idea is so I can record a screaming amp at low volumes. Hence, that means I certainly don't want to run the amp line-out from the DI back to the amp speaker. Will that hurt my amplifier or does the DI alone make my amp think a speaker is attached? You will need a resistive load for the amp. There are commercial "power soak" boxes out there that more or less simulate a speaker. However, they don't give you the sound a speaker will. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#6
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DI Box distorted through amp
Hugh Verdam wrote:
So I thought I might run the speaker out from my Solaris to the Countryman and into my Fireface, just to see how that sounds. Not a good match, in many ways. Well, it sounds just awful. There's a very unpleasant distortion (that appears to my untrained ears to be in the upper frequencies) almost like clipping. You could use it with something like the THD Hotplate, which puts a resistive load in place of the speaker(s) and offers an appropriate output for the Countryman. -- ha |
#7
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DI Box distorted through amp
I've been reflecting that I've been on internet since before there was
a WWW to speak of. I can't believe that pros like Mike and Scott have been here just about that long, helping beginners out. You guys are saints. Here are answers to various questions. I got the Countryman DI after reading around--it seems like an industry standard for a basic DI box. It is phantom powered. There is a switch next to the input that lets you select "pickup" or "speaker" output. The specs say it can handle 1,700 watts into 8 ohms before distorting. The gain for the pickup mode is -12db (10 Meg Ohms impedance) and for the speaker mode is -48db (10K Ohms impedance). I don't know if those numbers are meaningful to you guys. The Sunn Solaris is a true old-timer. I think mine was built before solid state guitar amplifiers were even an option. There are two speaker outputs on the back that you can access with a 1/4' phone plug. The speakers for the cabinet is plugged into one of them. I unplugged that and inserted the line leading to the DI instead. The Countryman expects to have amplifiers plugged into it from time to time and includes diagrams on how to do so. I was just surprised when--following that diagram--I couldn't get a volume level on my amp low enough to record without distortion. So, even if I can't get ear-melting overdriven amp sounds through the DI, I'm surprised that I can't get a clean sound at any level. I recorded once with the signal so weak that I had to normalize the wave file to even hear it play back. Still distortion. Maybe reamping the sound I'm getting and micing the cabinet would turn what I'm getting back into wonderful guitar sounds but--once again to my naive ears--I can't see how that's possible. I'm certainly not dumb enough to argue with Scott about that without trying first, though. (Thank you for teaching me about reamping, anyway!) Also, thanks for the information about the Power Soak. I have a couple other amps around here that I can experiment with and see if they perform differently. The Sunn has a nice rich sound and I was hoping to capture that. (I know now that the sound is a result of amp+cabinet, but anyway....) This is more like a thing that makes me go Hmmm than a big disaster. I got the DI for the bass and am 100% satisfied. Would be kinda fun if it did more, though. If any of this provides an opportunity for you to provide additional insights, I'd appreciate it. But, regardless, thanks again! |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DI Box distorted through amp
Hugh Verdam wrote:
The Countryman expects to have amplifiers plugged into it from time to time and includes diagrams on how to do so. I was just surprised when--following that diagram--I couldn't get a volume level on my amp low enough to record without distortion. What you may well be hearing is what the output of your amp actually sounds like if it isn't fed to the speakers. Guitar speakers in general are not accurate transducers; they add a lot of color to the tone. Taking them out of the picture often begets uglitude. Further, without the speaker's load imposed on the output of the amp, the amp itself is not outputting the same stuff it would if it was looking into that load. The Solaris is a great old tube amp. -- ha |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DI Box distorted through amp
Hugh Verdam wrote: I got the Countryman DI after reading around--it seems like an industry standard for a basic DI box. It is, for sure, just not around here. I don't have one so I didn't have immediate access to its gozintas and gozoutas. The "speaker" mode is indeed what you want to use when plugging it in where the speaker is normally connected. There are two speaker outputs on the back that you can access with a 1/4' phone plug. The speakers for the cabinet is plugged into one of them. I unplugged that and inserted the line leading to the DI instead. I was just surprised when--following that diagram--I couldn't get a volume level on my amp low enough to record without distortion. OK, well what was the level OUT of the DI? With the amplifier turned way down, did you find that the DI output was low, but still distorted? Or was it abnormally high? Within a couple of notches on the mic input gain control, you should be getting about the same output from the DI whether you're plugging a guitar into it in the "pickup" mode or an amplifier's speaker output in the "speaker" mode. It could be that the amplifier just sounds like crap without a speaker connected, but you just can't hear it. This is possible. Try re-connecting the speaker and plugging the DI in parallel (the other jack, assuming both work when you connect the speaker to them - try it first) and doing a little recording at a time when you won't bother anyone. If it's still distorted (much more so than the speaker sound) then something's wrong somewhere. If that cleans it up, then you know the amplifier doesn't like to work without a load. Of course, what Scott said could be what you're hearing - distortion that you don't normally hear coming from the speaker, because it acts like a filter. Maybe reamping the sound I'm getting and micing the cabinet would turn what I'm getting back into wonderful guitar sounds You can certainly give it a try. Feed the distorted recording back into the amplifier and see if it sounds more or less normal. |
#10
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DI Box distorted through amp
I may be wrong, but I think some tube amps don't like to have no
speaker (or equivalent load) connected, so that might be a cause for your distorded signal. I think it would help if we knew: 1- Do you talk about a normally clean sound that ends up distorted or 2- A fuzz sound that sounds way too harsh. The 1st case is a problem. The second one is normal as you remove the speaker sound from the equation. |
#11
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DI Box distorted through amp
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#12
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DI Box distorted through amp
Well, I'm so confused tonight I don't know what to tell you. I just
tried it again. First, I plugged the cabinet back in. There is a second external speaker jack and I plugged the DI back into that. So there was a speaker load on the amp. And it recorded great! So it's the speaker being removed that messes things up, right? No! Because then I unplugged the speaker and recorded again and it sounded great! I just don't know what was going on last night and why it's all OK tonight. The only thing I did differently was turn up the gain on my fireface pre. Its range is from 10 db to 60 db. Last night I had it turned completely down to 10. Tonight it was over 35. Why that would make a difference, I can't guess. I can capture the tone of the amp pretty well. You can tell that the speaker is not there adding its tone as well, though. Phillip--the question you're asking below is dead on. Last night, I was getting #1 no matter what volume I set. Tonight, only if I completely crank the first volume to overdrive the tube do I get #2, which is expected. I'm going to chalk this whole thing up to poltergeists. Back to the Power Soak question. If I decide to continue this and actually find one of those (I think the Sholz version is out of production), where does it go in the chain... Amp - DI - Powersoak? or Amp - Powersoak - DI? On 26 Dec 2006 17:49:55 -0800, wrote: I may be wrong, but I think some tube amps don't like to have no speaker (or equivalent load) connected, so that might be a cause for your distorded signal. I think it would help if we knew: 1- Do you talk about a normally clean sound that ends up distorted or 2- A fuzz sound that sounds way too harsh. The 1st case is a problem. The second one is normal as you remove the speaker sound from the equation. |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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DI Box distorted through amp
Hugh Verdam wrote: Well, I'm so confused tonight I don't know what to tell you. I just tried it again. First, I plugged the cabinet back in. There is a second external speaker jack and I plugged the DI back into that. So there was a speaker load on the amp. And it recorded great! So it's the speaker being removed that messes things up, right? No! Because then I unplugged the speaker and recorded again and it sounded great! Maybe the jack was sprung a bit from having the speaker plugged in for 20 years. The plug on the cable going ot the DI is probably newer, and may even be a cheepie import that's slightly undersized and plated with something that doesn't conduct electricity very well. So while you didn't have an intermittent contact between the jack and the plug (that would cause it to crackle or cut out) you had some resitance, and in fact, it was acting like a diode and rectifying the audio going to the DI. Sometimes this happens with patchbays, and using a different patch cable, working it in and out of the jack a bit, or giving it a shot of contact cleaner usually fixes the problem. The reason why it worked straight off when plugging into the open jack is because that one hasn't had a plug in it for years and probalby made better contact with the plug. I'm going to chalk this whole thing up to poltergeists. No, chalk it up to dirty contacts. Get yourself a can of DeOxIt. Back to the Power Soak question. If I decide to continue this and actually find one of those (I think the Sholz version is out of production), where does it go in the chain... Amp - Powersoak - DI? Yup, if the dummy load (whatever brand you get) has an output. Or plug the Powersoak into one speaker connector on the amp and the DI into the other connector, just as you have now only with the load in place of the speaker. Groove Tubes makes one, but it's quite a bit more than just a load resistor, and it's priced accordingly, about $1,000. |
#14
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DI Box distorted through amp
Mike Rivers wrote:
Or plug the Powersoak into one speaker connector on the amp and the DI into the other connector, just as you have now only with the load in place of the speaker. Groove Tubes makes one, but it's quite a bit more than just a load resistor, and it's priced accordingly, about $1,000. THD Hotplate is way less than that, still not actuall cheap by today's ignorant consideration. -- ha |
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