Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Hugh Verdam Hugh Verdam is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default DI Box distorted through amp

OK, I know I'm going to I'm going to be hammered for asking something
so elementary, but as long as you educate me at the same time I can
take it!

I just got a Countryman DI box and it is the first time I've ever used
DI. I got it mainly for recording my bass guitar direct and it
certainly works as advertised.

One thing I've never done with my guitar, though, is try to get my old
Sunn Solaris amp into the mix. Too loud to mic it in this house when
everyone is sleeping! I usually record through some amp
modeler--hardware or software.

So I thought I might run the speaker out from my Solaris to the
Countryman and into my Fireface, just to see how that sounds.

Well, it sounds just awful. There's a very unpleasant distortion
(that appears to my untrained ears to be in the upper frequencies)
almost like clipping.

Someone years ago installed a master volume switch on the Solaris.
Even with both volumes turned low--say 5 on the original volume and 2
on the master, the distortion is there. There are no clipping lights
going off anywhere. I still get that "clipping" distortion sound even
when I'm recording at levels so low I have to normalize the wave file
to hear it.

I've used the amp for years and it's always sounded great. So this is
a little disappointing. Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

Hey! Since I've made this dumb question day, let me go for a two-fer.

The whole point of the DI through the amp idea is so I can record a
screaming amp at low volumes. Hence, that means I certainly don't
want to run the amp line-out from the DI back to the amp speaker. Will
that hurt my amplifier or does the DI alone make my amp think a
speaker is attached?

Or should I just forget about this idea altogether? :-)

Thanks, folks.
  #2   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Romeo Rondeau Romeo Rondeau is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 484
Default DI Box distorted through amp

Hugh Verdam wrote:
OK, I know I'm going to I'm going to be hammered for asking something
so elementary, but as long as you educate me at the same time I can
take it!

I just got a Countryman DI box and it is the first time I've ever used
DI. I got it mainly for recording my bass guitar direct and it
certainly works as advertised.

One thing I've never done with my guitar, though, is try to get my old
Sunn Solaris amp into the mix. Too loud to mic it in this house when
everyone is sleeping! I usually record through some amp
modeler--hardware or software.

So I thought I might run the speaker out from my Solaris to the
Countryman and into my Fireface, just to see how that sounds.

Well, it sounds just awful. There's a very unpleasant distortion
(that appears to my untrained ears to be in the upper frequencies)
almost like clipping.

Someone years ago installed a master volume switch on the Solaris.
Even with both volumes turned low--say 5 on the original volume and 2
on the master, the distortion is there. There are no clipping lights
going off anywhere. I still get that "clipping" distortion sound even
when I'm recording at levels so low I have to normalize the wave file
to hear it.

I've used the amp for years and it's always sounded great. So this is
a little disappointing. Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

Hey! Since I've made this dumb question day, let me go for a two-fer.

The whole point of the DI through the amp idea is so I can record a
screaming amp at low volumes. Hence, that means I certainly don't
want to run the amp line-out from the DI back to the amp speaker. Will
that hurt my amplifier or does the DI alone make my amp think a
speaker is attached?

Or should I just forget about this idea altogether? :-)

Thanks, folks.


Are you powering this through phantom or a battery?
  #3   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,744
Default DI Box distorted through amp


Hugh Verdam wrote:
I thought I might run the speaker out from my Solaris to the
Countryman and into my Fireface, just to see how that sounds.

Well, it sounds just awful. There's a very unpleasant distortion
(that appears to my untrained ears to be in the upper frequencies)
almost like clipping.


Someone years ago installed a master volume switch on the Solaris.
Even with both volumes turned low--say 5 on the original volume and 2
on the master, the distortion is there.


It's possible that with that switch you're getting clipping in the
amplifier. Still, your basic problem is that the speaker output of the
amplifier is considerably higher than the ouput level of a guitar
pickup except at VERY low volume. Some DIs have a "speaker" input that
has about a 20 dB attenuator ahead of it to bring the level into line
with what the active circuitry or transformer in the DI expects.

The whole point of the DI through the amp idea is so I can record a
screaming amp at low volumes. Hence, that means I certainly don't
want to run the amp line-out from the DI back to the amp speaker. Will
that hurt my amplifier or does the DI alone make my amp think a
speaker is attached?


OK, just what are the outputs on your amplifier? Is there an output
jack that goes to the speaker cabinet, and is that where you're
plugging in the DI? With the speaker disconnected? If it's a tube
amplifier, it really wants the load of a loudspeaker on it. Running
without a speaker, particularly at the same settings you'd use with the
speaker, will definitely change the sound, and could cause some damage
to the amplifier. There's a gadget called "Power Soak" which is a dummy
load that replaces the speaker that's designed to solve this problem.
You can't just use a resistor from Radio Shack, it needs to handle all
the power that the amplifier can put out.

  #4   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
[email protected] philipperanger@hotmail.com is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default DI Box distorted through amp

I assume you're looking for a clean sound. Distortion sounds need lots
of high frequency attenuation to simulate the speaker sound, which is
an important part of the sound (no flame please, I know speaker
simulation is waaay more than just cutting highs, but at least this
gives the idea). No speaker simulation would sound like harsh
clipping.

You could put the DI between the guitar and the amp and record clean
gtr, then take that signal to the amp input and mike the amp, when
people are awake/away, so you' d keep your amp sound. It's called
"reamping"

If you are willing to take the amplifier sound without the speaker
sound to always have a "silent" setup then, as The Always Excellent
Mike Rivers said, the level is probably way too loud. Can you do
simple electronics? If the amp is solid state (as opposed to tubes),
you could connect a the ends of a 5k potentiometer to the output of the
amp, and your DI to one of the end + middle of the pot, to get a
variable pad (works on amplifier output, on line or mic signal you'd
loose high frequencies)

(DI+)------------V
(amp +) ------MMMMMM----------- (amp - AND DI -)

  #5   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,853
Default DI Box distorted through amp

In article ,
Hugh Verdam wrote:
OK, I know I'm going to I'm going to be hammered for asking something
so elementary, but as long as you educate me at the same time I can
take it!

I just got a Countryman DI box and it is the first time I've ever used
DI. I got it mainly for recording my bass guitar direct and it
certainly works as advertised.

One thing I've never done with my guitar, though, is try to get my old
Sunn Solaris amp into the mix. Too loud to mic it in this house when
everyone is sleeping! I usually record through some amp
modeler--hardware or software.

So I thought I might run the speaker out from my Solaris to the
Countryman and into my Fireface, just to see how that sounds.

Well, it sounds just awful. There's a very unpleasant distortion
(that appears to my untrained ears to be in the upper frequencies)
almost like clipping.


Yes. That is what guitwr amps do.

Someone years ago installed a master volume switch on the Solaris.
Even with both volumes turned low--say 5 on the original volume and 2
on the master, the distortion is there. There are no clipping lights
going off anywhere. I still get that "clipping" distortion sound even
when I'm recording at levels so low I have to normalize the wave file
to hear it.

I've used the amp for years and it's always sounded great. So this is
a little disappointing. Any insights would be greatly appreciated.


That's because the speaker and the cabinet change that distorted sound
into something that sounds good. The speaker and the cabinet are part
of the instrument and where a lot of the tone comes from.

The DIed feed is useful for a lot of things, including later reamping,
but the DI is coming to you halfway in the middle of the instrument's
signal path.


The whole point of the DI through the amp idea is so I can record a
screaming amp at low volumes. Hence, that means I certainly don't
want to run the amp line-out from the DI back to the amp speaker. Will
that hurt my amplifier or does the DI alone make my amp think a
speaker is attached?


You will need a resistive load for the amp. There are commercial "power
soak" boxes out there that more or less simulate a speaker. However,
they don't give you the sound a speaker will.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


  #6   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
hank alrich hank alrich is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 891
Default DI Box distorted through amp

Hugh Verdam wrote:

So I thought I might run the speaker out from my Solaris to the
Countryman and into my Fireface, just to see how that sounds.


Not a good match, in many ways.

Well, it sounds just awful. There's a very unpleasant distortion
(that appears to my untrained ears to be in the upper frequencies)
almost like clipping.


You could use it with something like the THD Hotplate, which puts a
resistive load in place of the speaker(s) and offers an appropriate
output for the Countryman.

--
ha
  #7   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Hugh Verdam Hugh Verdam is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default DI Box distorted through amp

I've been reflecting that I've been on internet since before there was
a WWW to speak of. I can't believe that pros like Mike and Scott have
been here just about that long, helping beginners out. You guys are
saints.

Here are answers to various questions.

I got the Countryman DI after reading around--it seems like an
industry standard for a basic DI box. It is phantom powered. There
is a switch next to the input that lets you select "pickup" or
"speaker" output. The specs say it can handle 1,700 watts into 8 ohms
before distorting. The gain for the pickup mode is -12db (10 Meg Ohms
impedance) and for the speaker mode is -48db (10K Ohms impedance). I
don't know if those numbers are meaningful to you guys.

The Sunn Solaris is a true old-timer. I think mine was built before
solid state guitar amplifiers were even an option.

There are two speaker outputs on the back that you can access with a
1/4' phone plug. The speakers for the cabinet is plugged into one of
them. I unplugged that and inserted the line leading to the DI
instead.

The Countryman expects to have amplifiers plugged into it from time to
time and includes diagrams on how to do so. I was just surprised
when--following that diagram--I couldn't get a volume level on my amp
low enough to record without distortion.

So, even if I can't get ear-melting overdriven amp sounds through the
DI, I'm surprised that I can't get a clean sound at any level. I
recorded once with the signal so weak that I had to normalize the wave
file to even hear it play back. Still distortion.

Maybe reamping the sound I'm getting and micing the cabinet would turn
what I'm getting back into wonderful guitar sounds but--once again to
my naive ears--I can't see how that's possible. I'm certainly not
dumb enough to argue with Scott about that without trying first,
though. (Thank you for teaching me about reamping, anyway!)

Also, thanks for the information about the Power Soak. I have a
couple other amps around here that I can experiment with and see if
they perform differently. The Sunn has a nice rich sound and I was
hoping to capture that. (I know now that the sound is a result of
amp+cabinet, but anyway....)

This is more like a thing that makes me go Hmmm than a big disaster. I
got the DI for the bass and am 100% satisfied. Would be kinda fun if
it did more, though.

If any of this provides an opportunity for you to provide additional
insights, I'd appreciate it. But, regardless, thanks again!
  #8   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
hank alrich hank alrich is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 891
Default DI Box distorted through amp

Hugh Verdam wrote:

The Countryman expects to have amplifiers plugged into it from time to
time and includes diagrams on how to do so. I was just surprised
when--following that diagram--I couldn't get a volume level on my amp
low enough to record without distortion.


What you may well be hearing is what the output of your amp actually
sounds like if it isn't fed to the speakers. Guitar speakers in general
are not accurate transducers; they add a lot of color to the tone.
Taking them out of the picture often begets uglitude.

Further, without the speaker's load imposed on the output of the amp,
the amp itself is not outputting the same stuff it would if it was
looking into that load.

The Solaris is a great old tube amp.

--
ha
  #9   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,744
Default DI Box distorted through amp


Hugh Verdam wrote:

I got the Countryman DI after reading around--it seems like an
industry standard for a basic DI box.


It is, for sure, just not around here. I don't have one so I didn't
have immediate access to its gozintas and gozoutas. The "speaker" mode
is indeed what you want to use when plugging it in where the speaker is
normally connected.

There are two speaker outputs on the back that you can access with a
1/4' phone plug. The speakers for the cabinet is plugged into one of
them. I unplugged that and inserted the line leading to the DI
instead.


I was just surprised
when--following that diagram--I couldn't get a volume level on my amp
low enough to record without distortion.


OK, well what was the level OUT of the DI? With the amplifier turned
way down, did you find that the DI output was low, but still distorted?
Or was it abnormally high? Within a couple of notches on the mic input
gain control, you should be getting about the same output from the DI
whether you're plugging a guitar into it in the "pickup" mode or an
amplifier's speaker output in the "speaker" mode.

It could be that the amplifier just sounds like crap without a speaker
connected, but you just can't hear it. This is possible. Try
re-connecting the speaker and plugging the DI in parallel (the other
jack, assuming both work when you connect the speaker to them - try it
first) and doing a little recording at a time when you won't bother
anyone. If it's still distorted (much more so than the speaker sound)
then something's wrong somewhere. If that cleans it up, then you know
the amplifier doesn't like to work without a load.

Of course, what Scott said could be what you're hearing - distortion
that you don't normally hear coming from the speaker, because it acts
like a filter.

Maybe reamping the sound I'm getting and micing the cabinet would turn
what I'm getting back into wonderful guitar sounds


You can certainly give it a try. Feed the distorted recording back into
the amplifier and see if it sounds more or less normal.

  #10   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
[email protected] philipperanger@hotmail.com is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default DI Box distorted through amp

I may be wrong, but I think some tube amps don't like to have no
speaker (or equivalent load) connected, so that might be a cause for
your distorded signal. I think it would help if we knew:

1- Do you talk about a normally clean sound that ends up distorted or
2- A fuzz sound that sounds way too harsh.

The 1st case is a problem. The second one is normal as you remove the
speaker sound from the equation.



  #12   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Hugh Verdam Hugh Verdam is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default DI Box distorted through amp

Well, I'm so confused tonight I don't know what to tell you. I just
tried it again. First, I plugged the cabinet back in. There is a
second external speaker jack and I plugged the DI back into that. So
there was a speaker load on the amp.

And it recorded great! So it's the speaker being removed that messes
things up, right?

No! Because then I unplugged the speaker and recorded again and it
sounded great!

I just don't know what was going on last night and why it's all OK
tonight. The only thing I did differently was turn up the gain on my
fireface pre. Its range is from 10 db to 60 db. Last night I had it
turned completely down to 10. Tonight it was over 35. Why that would
make a difference, I can't guess.

I can capture the tone of the amp pretty well. You can tell that the
speaker is not there adding its tone as well, though.

Phillip--the question you're asking below is dead on. Last night, I
was getting #1 no matter what volume I set. Tonight, only if I
completely crank the first volume to overdrive the tube do I get #2,
which is expected.

I'm going to chalk this whole thing up to poltergeists.

Back to the Power Soak question. If I decide to continue this and
actually find one of those (I think the Sholz version is out of
production), where does it go in the chain...

Amp - DI - Powersoak?

or

Amp - Powersoak - DI?


On 26 Dec 2006 17:49:55 -0800, wrote:

I may be wrong, but I think some tube amps don't like to have no
speaker (or equivalent load) connected, so that might be a cause for
your distorded signal. I think it would help if we knew:

1- Do you talk about a normally clean sound that ends up distorted or
2- A fuzz sound that sounds way too harsh.

The 1st case is a problem. The second one is normal as you remove the
speaker sound from the equation.

  #13   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,744
Default DI Box distorted through amp


Hugh Verdam wrote:
Well, I'm so confused tonight I don't know what to tell you. I just
tried it again. First, I plugged the cabinet back in. There is a
second external speaker jack and I plugged the DI back into that. So
there was a speaker load on the amp.

And it recorded great! So it's the speaker being removed that messes
things up, right?

No! Because then I unplugged the speaker and recorded again and it
sounded great!


Maybe the jack was sprung a bit from having the speaker plugged in for
20 years. The plug on the cable going ot the DI is probably newer, and
may even be a cheepie import that's slightly undersized and plated with
something that doesn't conduct electricity very well. So while you
didn't have an intermittent contact between the jack and the plug (that
would cause it to crackle or cut out) you had some resitance, and in
fact, it was acting like a diode and rectifying the audio going to the
DI. Sometimes this happens with patchbays, and using a different patch
cable, working it in and out of the jack a bit, or giving it a shot of
contact cleaner usually fixes the problem.

The reason why it worked straight off when plugging into the open jack
is because that one hasn't had a plug in it for years and probalby made
better contact with the plug.

I'm going to chalk this whole thing up to poltergeists.


No, chalk it up to dirty contacts. Get yourself a can of DeOxIt.

Back to the Power Soak question. If I decide to continue this and
actually find one of those (I think the Sholz version is out of
production), where does it go in the chain...


Amp - Powersoak - DI?


Yup, if the dummy load (whatever brand you get) has an output. Or plug
the Powersoak into one speaker connector on the amp and the DI into the
other connector, just as you have now only with the load in place of
the speaker. Groove Tubes makes one, but it's quite a bit more than
just a load resistor, and it's priced accordingly, about $1,000.

  #14   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
hank alrich hank alrich is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 891
Default DI Box distorted through amp

Mike Rivers wrote:

Or plug
the Powersoak into one speaker connector on the amp and the DI into the
other connector, just as you have now only with the load in place of
the speaker. Groove Tubes makes one, but it's quite a bit more than
just a load resistor, and it's priced accordingly, about $1,000.


THD Hotplate is way less than that, still not actuall cheap by today's
ignorant consideration.

--
ha
Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Distorted Audio Neil Rutman Pro Audio 9 February 14th 06 06:08 PM
Sennhesier 421 on distorted guitar advice jeffontheleft Pro Audio 12 November 29th 05 09:50 PM
Why are the hits frequently the last (most distorted) track on the side?? Doc Audio Opinions 40 May 28th 04 03:07 PM
HAHA I FIGURED OUT THE holy grail of distorted guitar micing J&L Pro Audio 70 March 3rd 04 04:01 PM
Distorted vocals? yea or nay? Ross Vandegrift Pro Audio 21 October 1st 03 12:09 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:08 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AudioBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Audio and hi-fi"