By Michael Costin and David Phipps

Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously
mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a
*really* fast car in your garage.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

In article , says...
By Michael Costin and David Phipps

Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously
mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a
*really* fast car in your garage.

Take a look around this site to see said principles being put into practice..

http://www.knutspeed.com/mar30.asp

T.
--
Please Tony, NO!! You'd look dreadful in a basque and fishnets..

In message , Stewart
Pinkerton writes
By Michael Costin and David Phipps

Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously
mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a
*really* fast car in your garage.

I've got an original edition of that one as well! A classic work from
the early 60s.
--
Chris Morriss

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message

By Michael Costin and David Phipps

Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously
mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a
*really* fast car in your garage.

We had a copy kicking around the Advanced Chassis Analysis department at
Chrysler (US) when I worked there back in the 70s.

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously
mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a
*really* fast car in your garage.

We had a copy kicking around the Advanced Chassis Analysis department at
Chrysler (US) when I worked there back in the 70s.

Would that be when they were considering moving away from rigid rear axles?

--
*Age is a very high price to pay for maturity.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:11:51 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously
mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a
*really* fast car in your garage.

We had a copy kicking around the Advanced Chassis Analysis department at
Chrysler (US) when I worked there back in the 70s.

Would that be when they were considering moving away from rigid rear axles?

Tee hee! Well, it had to better than what Chevrolet did with indy rear
suspension in the Corvair.........................

Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Tee hee! Well, it had to better than what Chevrolet did with indy rear
suspension in the Corvair.........................

It was fine as long as you maintained the correct tire pressures. :-)

Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette!

Leaf springs are good. Suspension and location combined.
My last car had leaves at the back and torsion bars at the front.

--
Eiron.

In message , Stewart
Pinkerton writes
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:11:51 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously
mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a
*really* fast car in your garage.

We had a copy kicking around the Advanced Chassis Analysis department at
Chrysler (US) when I worked there back in the 70s.

Would that be when they were considering moving away from rigid rear axles?

Tee hee! Well, it had to better than what Chevrolet did with indy rear
suspension in the Corvair.........................

Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette!

Nothing wrong with the Corvair, in the Mk2 form with semi-trailing arm
rear suspension it handled quite well, and was one of the few
interesting American cars ever made. (IMO of course!)

Don't believe what Nader said; he wasn't (and still isn't) someone to
believe a word of.
--
Chris Morriss

In message , Eiron
writes
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Tee hee! Well, it had to better than what Chevrolet did with indy rear
suspension in the Corvair.........................

It was fine as long as you maintained the correct tire pressures. :-)

Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette!

Leaf springs are good. Suspension and location combined.
My last car had leaves at the back and torsion bars at the front.


NOOOOOOoooo!

Don't ever combine the suspension and location in one device. Good God
man, many of us here are engineers.
--
Chris Morriss

In article ,
Eiron wrote:
Leaf springs are good. Suspension and location combined.

Ie, cheap.

My last car had leaves at the back and torsion bars at the front.

Leaf springs don't act as a true spring - too much friction. Nor do they
locate well.

--
*With her marriage she got a new name and a dress.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Eiron wrote:

Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette!

Leaf springs are good.

s******

Chris Morriss wrote:


Nothing wrong with the Corvair, in the Mk2 form with semi-trailing arm
rear suspension it handled quite well, and was one of the few
interesting American cars ever made. (IMO of course!)

Don't believe what Nader said; he wasn't (and still isn't) someone to
believe a word of.


Would you like to comment on the original Corvair?
Wasn't that more interesting than the Mk2?

--
Eiron.

in article , Eiron at wrote
on 3/18/05 2:21 PM:

Chris Morriss wrote:


Nothing wrong with the Corvair, in the Mk2 form with semi-trailing arm
rear suspension it handled quite well, and was one of the few
interesting American cars ever made. (IMO of course!)

Don't believe what Nader said; he wasn't (and still isn't) someone to
believe a word of.


Would you like to comment on the original Corvair?
Wasn't that more interesting than the Mk2?


*** It got real interesting when it was rear-ended!

- Ralph Nader

Jon Yaeger wrote:

Would you like to comment on the original Corvair?
Wasn't that more interesting than the Mk2?



*** It got real interesting when it was rear-ended!

No, that was the Pinto. The Corvair rear-ended itself.

--
Eiron.

in article , Eiron at wrote
on 3/18/05 2:46 PM:

Jon Yaeger wrote:

Would you like to comment on the original Corvair?
Wasn't that more interesting than the Mk2?



*** It got real interesting when it was rear-ended!

No, that was the Pinto. The Corvair rear-ended itself.


I stand corrected . . .

In message , Eiron
writes
Chris Morriss wrote:


Nothing wrong with the Corvair, in the Mk2 form with semi-trailing
arm rear suspension it handled quite well, and was one of the few
interesting American cars ever made. (IMO of course!)
Don't believe what Nader said; he wasn't (and still isn't) someone
to believe a word of.


Would you like to comment on the original Corvair?
Wasn't that more interesting than the Mk2?


Don't know, I've only ever driven a Mk2 version (the 2-door body), and I
wouldn't mind owning one.
--
Chris Morriss

In message , Eiron
writes
Jon Yaeger wrote:

Would you like to comment on the original Corvair?
Wasn't that more interesting than the Mk2?
*** It got real interesting when it was rear-ended!

No, that was the Pinto. The Corvair rear-ended itself.


Nothing wrong with the better sort of rear-engined cars, I've owned
quite a few, including an Alpine-Renault GTA turbo. But the best
handling of all was a much-loved Hillman Imp.
--
Chris Morriss

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message

In article ,

Arny Krueger wrote:

Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously
mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a
*really* fast car in your garage.

We had a copy kicking around the Advanced Chassis Analysis
department at Chrysler (US) when I worked there back in the 70s.

Would that be when they were considering moving away from rigid rear
axles?

Yes and no. In some areas they were moving towards them and in some they
were moving away.

Rigid rear axles aren't necessarily a bad thing - the well-known De Dion
rear suspension comes to mind, as does the use of beam rear axles in
front-wheel-drive vehicles. As with all engineering approaches, the best
solution comes out of the requirements, and the requirements can vary.

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:11:51 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously
mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a
*really* fast car in your garage.

We had a copy kicking around the Advanced Chassis Analysis
department at Chrysler (US) when I worked there back in the 70s.

Would that be when they were considering moving away from rigid rear
axles?

Tee hee! Well, it had to better than what Chevrolet did with indy rear
suspension in the Corvair.........................

Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette!

Not to split hairs, but there are not leaf springs at the rear of a
Corvette. There is a single leaf which fills the role of what would
otherwise be two separate springs.

Typical implementation pictu

http://www.hpsalvage.com/Correar.htm


Commentary:

http://www.autoswalk.com/chevcorc5.html

"The configuration was relatively familiar: unequal-length control arms, a
transverse plastic leaf spring, tubular shocks and an anti-roll bar up
front, and unequal-length control arms with a toe control link, a transverse
plastic leaf spring, tubular shocks and an anti-roll bar in the rear."

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message

In article ,
Eiron wrote:
Leaf springs are good. Suspension and location combined.

Ie, cheap.

My last car had leaves at the back and torsion bars at the front.

Leaf springs don't act as a true spring - too much friction. Nor do
they locate well.

Friction in leaf springs comes from slippage between the leaves. Mono-leaf
springs obviously avoid that.

"Chris Morriss" wrote in message


Nothing wrong with the Corvair, in the Mk2 form with semi-trailing arm
rear suspension it handled quite well, and was one of the few
interesting American cars ever made. (IMO of course!)

I owned a 1965 Corvair 140 hp/4-speed for about 6 years. I upgraded it with
Michlen radial ply tires for better stability since its initial stability
was poor. IME it was a fairly unstable car - prone to oversteer at all
speeds. I survived 3 high-speed (60-80 mph) spin-outs on dry or only
slightly damp pavement, one of which included 3 go-arounds.

Don't believe what Nader said; he wasn't (and still isn't) someone to
believe a word of.

He was right about the Corvair (both versions) being unstable. The earlier
version was very bad, while the later version was merely bad.

What is less well-known is that there have been quite a few cars, even front
wheel drive front engine cars that are prone to cyclic yaw instability at
high speeds.

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:00:41 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Eiron wrote:
Leaf springs are good. Suspension and location combined.

Ie, cheap.

My last car had leaves at the back and torsion bars at the front.

Leaf springs don't act as a true spring - too much friction. Nor do they
locate well.

Actually, to be fair, I should point out that the current 'vette uses
a single composite transverse leaf spring, which works pretty well.
It's still a good laughing point, though! :-)

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Would that be when they were considering moving away from rigid rear
axles?

Yes and no. In some areas they were moving towards them and in some they
were moving away.

Rigid rear axles aren't necessarily a bad thing - the well-known De Dion
rear suspension comes to mind, as does the use of beam rear axles in
front-wheel-drive vehicles.

Both of which remove the torque reaction that is a big problem with an all
in one rigid rear axle on a powerful car. And removes much of the unsprung
weight. And allows independent movement of the wheels in the vertical
plane - in the case of a DeDion. Which has other problems.

As with all engineering approaches, the best
solution comes out of the requirements, and the requirements can vary.

For a RWD, the only decent solution is a form of double wishbone - or
multi-link type as used by BMW and others. Everything else is a cost
saving cludge.

--
*The only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Leaf springs don't act as a true spring - too much friction. Nor do
they locate well.

Friction in leaf springs comes from slippage between the leaves.
Mono-leaf springs obviously avoid that.

But then can't be progressive rate. And having to be made out of expensive
steel, cost more - and don't do the job as well as a coil spring and
decent axle location.

--
*If vegetable oil comes from vegetables, where does baby oil come from? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:47:11 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:

Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette!

No, they do not, and they have not for decades. Get real.

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:32:09 GMT, dizzy wrote:

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:47:11 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:

Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette!

No, they do not, and they have not for decades. Get real.

Look at the rear suspension of a 2005 C6 Corvette, and tell me what
you see supporting the wheels. Now trot down to the store and see if
they have a sense of humour on sale.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:01:32 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Leaf springs don't act as a true spring - too much friction. Nor do
they locate well.

Friction in leaf springs comes from slippage between the leaves.
Mono-leaf springs obviously avoid that.

But then can't be progressive rate. And having to be made out of expensive
steel, cost more - and don't do the job as well as a coil spring and
decent axle location.

Actually, the leaf spring at the back of the C6 Corvette is made out
of reinforced plastic, and certainly works as well as would a coil.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Actually Corvair people love Nader, because without him the second
series Corvair never would have been: they'd have given it a cosmetic
lift in '64 and discontinued it entirely in '66 because -(music: 'I've
heard That Song Before'...)-it was expensive to build. People are still
working out new ways to use Corvair engines in experimental aircraft!

But he is totally bereft of technical knowledge, and is a textbook
fascist to boot.

The only thing Chrysler did that was technically interesting at all
after the 50's was the aborted turbine car project. It actually did
make a huge amount of money, but not for Chrysler: Huebner's sidekick
Sam Williams founded WIlliams Research and made a colossal fortune from
super-profit-margin turbine engines. And their electronic ignition is
still the simplest and best-I know of Corvairs fitted with the /6
reluctor and pickup and the Mopar control box.

By double wishbone, you mean unequal-length A-arms,I take it? Some good
road racers used the deDion AFAIK.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Leaf springs don't act as a true spring - too much friction. Nor do
they locate well.

Friction in leaf springs comes from slippage between the leaves.
Mono-leaf springs obviously avoid that.

But then can't be progressive rate.

Not true. Leaf springs tend to be variable-rate like it or not, because
their geometry keeps changing as they are deformed.

And having to be made out of expensive steel,

You can't make any kind of spring out of cheap steep. Coil springs are made
out of expensive steel as well. Either that, or they sag or break.

cost more - and don't do the job as well as a coil spring and decent axle
location.

I think that you will find that the rear axle of a C5 or C6 Corvette is very
well-located. Just because the spring is a leaf puts few constraints on the
rest of the suspension design.

In article .com,
wrote:
By double wishbone, you mean unequal-length A-arms,I take it?

Yup. Of course the problem is they need to be a decent length to give good
travel for comfort, and take up a lot of room.

Some good road racers used the deDion AFAIK.

Yes - it's a good system, but costly to make. And you can't alter the
camber to balance oversteer/understeer characteristics, so rather out of
favour these days.

--
*Who are these kids and why are they calling me Mom?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andre, (if you're reading this). I sent a couple of emails to you
regarding the sale of the book. They were to your 'fiultra' address.
Have you got them, or is this address a black hole?

Regards,
--
Chris Morriss