As I suggested when Bob first posted his answer, I couldn't agree more. But
it is very rare to read such words by an actual JAZZ guy. Most musicians
today think jazz BEGAN with bebop and completely miss the significance of
earlier jazz. Maybe they're like people who think movies didn't count until
they were in color. Or maybe they think that any music that affects gut
level emotions is beneath them. Or maybe they just lack the ability to play
the right notes and don't want to admit it.

ANY "art form" that fails strongly to impact the emotions (usually in a
positive way) is doomed. ANY "art form" that exists to serve snobs is
doomed. ANY "art form" that needs colleges and universities to help it
survive (e.g., today's jazz) is doomed. ANY "art form" that falls into any
of the above categories is not really art. Don't believe it? Live a century
or two and find out for yourself ....

And ANY person who fails to understand the above lacks analytical skills, a
sense of history, sufficient intelligence, or all three. And none of the
above should suggest that post 1945 jazz players, as a whole, are not more
learned, sophisticated, or technically proficient than many of their
predecessors. It's just that, after a while, musicians -- or artists in
nearly any discipline -- tend to forget the reason their genre became
popular or try to make more of it than they should. (Yeah, we know why they
did it, but who cares? Can you say, "Entropy"?)

When I went to grad school, the professors wanted us to use big words,
convoluted sentences, and to express simple ideas in a complicated way. I
finally figured out it was because they wanted some people to think we were
much smarter than we really were. I also realized a lot of professors are
(figuratively) idiots. Then I went into TV news and a really intelligent guy
told me to use small words and simple sentences. It was hard. Especially
when I had to explain something complicated. Eventually I realized you can't
say something simply and clearly to an average guy until you truly
understand it yourself.

When, as a musician, I turned pro, my mentor (a veteran of the Louis
Armstrong All-Stars, an arranger for Benny Goodman, and a major talent in
his own right) asked me why I played so many notes. And Artie Shaw pointed
out to me that jazz ran into big trouble around the time musicians started
saying such things as, "I play, like, jazz." (We were talking about Miles
Davis.) He said it's either jazz or it isn't. If it's "'like' jazz", it's
not jazz; but it may be something related to jazz. It was one of his wry
"jokes".

So one day it all came together and I figured it out for myself. Less is
more. Simple usually out-classes complex and it is a lot harder to be
simple. Emotion in music invariably trumps intellect. And I realized many
jazz guys from the '20s through the mid '40s understood how to reach an
audience MUSICALLY and EMOTIONALLY. And I realized the bop and post bop guys
reached us intellectually but failed to reach us on a gut level as well as
their predecessors. And I realized what jazz was supposed to be all about.
And I stopped trying to impress other musicians. And I started to play a lot
better. (And I even achieved a better understanding of how to record jazz.)

When enough other musicians figure that stuff out, jazz may have a shot at a
comeback ... if anybody gives it a chance. But it is unlikely the corrupt
corporate bureaucracy would allow it onto the radio. Unless somebody else
already has made a lot of money with it ....

"Uncle Russ" Reinberg

WESTLAKE PUBLISHING COMPANY
www.finescalerr.com
WESTLAKE RECORDS
www.westlakerecords.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "hank alrich"
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 6:51 PM
Subject: What Year Did Jazz Die


Bob Vandiver wrote:

I have felt for some time that jazz died the year that BeBop was born,
which was close to the time rock was born, plus or minus a couple of
years.

Some years ago there was an interview in _Keyboard_ with Marcus Roberts.
He said that same thing. He said that when the jazzers forgot that
social music was mostly to dance to they gave it all up to rock 'n'
roll. He also said (and mind you, he's a jazz pianist) that jazzers
should stop bitching about rock 'n' roll becuase they brought this on
themselves by indulging themselves in cerebral technicality.

--
ha

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 01:19:41 -0700, "Uncle Russ"
wrote:

As I suggested when Bob first posted his answer, I couldn't agree more. But
it is very rare to read such words by an actual JAZZ guy. Most musicians
today think jazz BEGAN with bebop and completely miss the significance of
earlier jazz. Maybe they're like people who think movies didn't count until
they were in color. Or maybe they think that any music that affects gut
level emotions is beneath them. Or maybe they just lack the ability to play
the right notes and don't want to admit it.

Interesting comments Russ. And I also couldn't agree more with your
preference to play less notes, something I am still personally trying
hard to learn.

I really think it was pre 1945 when jazz was at it's peak. It was the
music of the time, on Broadway in dance halls and movies. Cole
Porter, Irving Berlin, the Gershwins, Fats Waller, Rogers and Hart,
Jerome Kern - these guys were the greatest composers of American Music
EVER. Not to belittle the accomplishments of Bird, Monk, Miles, Dizzy
and Coltrane by any means, but they were already playing in a market
where kids were dancing to rock and roll.

One answer is Jazz died when more people started dancing to other
styles of music.

Julian

In keeping with Uncle Russ's thread (Hi, Uncle Russ), the following is
an e-mail I recently sent to Ramsey Lewis after viewing a public TV
program he moderated which was aired locally this past July.

Hello Ramsey:

A couple nights ago, my wife noticed a jazz program in the PublicTV
listings which I was happy to know about since, obviously, there are so
few. Turned out to be the one where you were the moderator/player
with George Wein, John Hendricks, James Moody, Paquito D'Rivera, and
Nancy Wilson as guests and performers. Have no idea, of course, when
it was taped.

I'm a 68 year old white musician who has been playing jazz since I was
a little kid sitting beside my parent's Magnavox playing along with the
78's from the 20's, 30's, and 40's. Started on reeds and piano, then
took up at various junctures along the way trombone, upright bass,
guitar, and tenor banjo. Graduated from college, became a US naval
officer, spent some time while in the Navy (stationed at a small Navy
base inside Ft. Campbell, Ky.) sitting in on bass fiddle on Nashville's
Printers Alley where some of the top country and recording guys would
come to play jazz on weekend nights. This was in the very late 50's.
Also at that time I took in one of your concerts when you had L.D.
Young et al. Happened to be visiting the Memphis Naval Air Station
when you were in town at the time. After the Navy, I decided to pursue
the engineering business and keep music as a side line albeit a busy
one playing with trad and straight ahead swing groups in the Michigan
area for 30 years. Eventually sold my machinery building company and
pursued the music business almost full time playing symphony pops,
community concerts, cruise ships, and trad jazz festivals all over the
US, Canada, and parts of Europe for the past 10 years with my own
bands. Also at times I was lucky enough to serve as a rhythm
guitar/banjoist with some of the best of the world class players in the
classic jazz bag. Never attained any broad national fame, but did
create and sell 1000's of recordings and my bands were well known on
the trad circuit. I mention all this so you'll know where I'm coming
from.

Naturally since we continue to seek playing venues although not as
heavily as in the past, we're much interested in what is happening on
and to the jazz scene in general. We're fairly astute observers and
what we're seeing is not pretty. Festivals are becoming a sea of gray
with walkers and wheelchairs beginning to equal those still able to get
around without. Jazz on the media is essentially non-existent with
small audiences if it is played (there remain public radio stations
here and there which play it at least a couple of hours a day). We
notice your calendar is certainly not empty and probably full enough at
this stage of life, but regardless, the cold hard facts are that
interest in jazz by the general public hits new lows every day. Since
this is quite disturbing to those of us who have been around long
enough to have experienced the scene when general audiences would turn
out to hear the good swinging melodic music called "jazz", we're all
trying to figure out what went wrong.

I also have an on-location recording business which serves among others
many schools in my West Michigan area (Grand Rapids). So I get to hear
many, many concert bands, orchestras, jazz bands and ensembles
populated by the kids.

With all that said, here are some bottom line conclusions:

Jazz is killing itself. The roots are dead and the plants above the
ground can't survive without them. To be brutually frank, the
performances on your TV program were outstanding examples of this issue
and generally stunk. Nancy Wilson started by butchering "God Bless the
Child" not only failing to sing any notes from the melody, but making
contorted mouth gestures which were replusive to watch. Then James
Moody got up in front of the contemporary trio and it was just as bad.
The drummer in the group, as all now do, banged away continually
screwing up any chance for a groove, the piano man had barely two
fingers on his left hand using them only in that contemporary "claw"
position to play a fourth every odd once-in-a-while, and the bass
player was back there trying his best to figure out what the hell he
should be doing. Moody, of course, babbled on displaying senseless
technique which was also completely lacking in rhythmic and melodic
feel.

Then Hendricks appeared and did the same thing all over again making
nothing but noise with his so-called scat singing. D'Rivera saved the
day at least somewhat by playing with a measure of taste but still
rather obscurely. Both I and my long time drummer buddy who also
happened to be watching commented that we were utterly embarrassed when
you finally and surprisingly brought out the teenager who had to sit
through that garbage thinking she should pay some homage to these
"icons" even though she then completely and totally outclassed them
with her tune and presentation. (Found out later her name is Renee
Olstead and she's a class act).

Finally when you asked these people where they thought jazz was going,
they all mouthed the same head-in-the-sand line that things were just
fine. Plenty of work, blah, blah, blah. These guys have all played
one too many gig and the word is "denial".

The facts are that jazz began it's slow death march in the early 60's
when the roots were beginning to be lost and the beboppers took over.
The melodies were discarded and the rhythms became stilted. Mindless
technique became revered and the intent was to do anything but play
with that moldy fig thing called taste. Blow your head off, play out
of the range of the horn, make funny noises, play finger exercises, do
anything but play an occasional melody figure on the beat.
And do it all to amaze your contemporaries forgetting all about the
word "entertain" and the fact that there was a business side to all of
this and public interest to maintain.

Lets digress a minute and talk about contemporary piano players. Are
there any who can hold a candle to the guys who had all ten fingers and
knew how to use them to create internal chords and counter-melodies as
well as or to support the right hand which, in the case of most of
today's genre, sounds like somebody turned a chipmonk loose? Yes, I
know the old line - don't get in the way of the bass player. Bull
****. I just listened to a recording made in the early 90's live with
Andre Previn, Ray Brown, and Mundell Lowe. Previn played the most
beautiful and swinging stuff using all his fingers with Brown and Lowe
fitting in precisely. And if there had been a drummer, he would have
played entire chorures without ever once banging a stick on something
in the middle of a phrase. There is absolutely no comparison between
what I hear on this recording and what I heard on your TV program.

The school jazz programs are equally populated now by instructors who
never heard of Art Tatum, Fats Waller or even Louis Armstrong. They
all think jazz started with Monk, Miles, and Charley Parker. The
consequences of this are that I sit through countless jazz band
performances where the kids play nonsense charts, get up and try to
fake without having any idea of the changes or a melody only trying to
emulate the noise makers they've been introduced to by the recordings
the instructor plays. Then, after they stop and take a bow, the
parents and other kids who know nothing start their phony screaming.
So then a "jazz' band or player comes to town and these members of the
general public say, "well, it's not my kid and if "jazz" is what they
played at that concert the other night, who wants to go hear more of
that souless racket".

So what's happening, and we're experiencing it personally, is that even
on the odd chance that those from the "general public" do come across
"jazz" by some accident, they immediately write it off as boring and
unmoving. And shows like yours the other night with the one exception
simply contribute to this process.
On occasion a few younger people do somehow make it through the morass
of what's considered "jazz" today and all the pop garbage. We have a
clarinet player in our band right now who started with us when he was
15 (he's now 21). He was then 6'-2" tall, looked just like the young
Benny Goodman, and had the born-in talent to be able to play damn near
as well. And by now he's matured to the point where he's as good as
any in the world - but is wise enough to stay in college and get an
accounting degree while he gigs on the side since he's quite aware now
that there's very little market for his "jazz' talent. You, of course,
showcased briefly a similar person in the form of the teenaged gal
whose name escaped us (Renee Olstead). She should have been featured
on the whole show with you on piano. The drummer, I noticed, did calm
down when she sang although he picked up his sticks near the end and
started making noise again. As good as she seems to be, given the
state of the genre today, she'll be lucky to get very far - unless she
goes "pop" and starts shrieking as they all do after maybe one chorus
of something decent. I had the great pleasure a few years ago of
getting to back Maxine Sullivan at a festival shortly before she died.
If you know her, and you should, you get the picture.

For what's it worth, this is my two cents and I and some others who
feel similarly are beginning to make some noise about it. I'm raising
hell with the high school band directors and so far, oddly, most are
not giving me any argument when I tell them to stop putting kids on
stage as soloists who can't first play a melody note for note. "Gee,
that's a new idea", they say.

Sorry to have to pan your program, but something has to change or all
this malarkey about "jazz" being America's only true art form is going
to become just that and who will care?

Sincerely,

Dave Miller
Miller Analog Studios
Grand Rapids, Michigan

On 17 Oct 2005 19:56:17 -0700, wrote:

In keeping with Uncle Russ's thread (Hi, Uncle Russ), the following is
an e-mail I recently sent to Ramsey Lewis after viewing a public TV
program he moderated which was aired locally this past July.

gruesome details edited out

Dave,

What a dismal opinion! It made me sick to read.

Julian

Hi Julian:

Well, I'm sorry I made you sick. You've heard my opinions. Let's hear
yours. Are you a listener, musician, recording engineer? Are your
experiences different than mine and Uncle Russ'? Maybe we're missing
something. Your turn.

Regards, Dave

In article .com,
wrote:

Hi Julian:

Well, I'm sorry I made you sick. You've heard my opinions. Let's hear
yours. Are you a listener, musician, recording engineer? Are your
experiences different than mine and Uncle Russ'? Maybe we're missing
something. Your turn.

Regards, Dave


I'm not Julian but I'll give you my perspective. I grew up in the '60s and I am
primarily a rock and blues devotee. I've played guitar for 40 years and written
and recorded music for 30. I always regarded jazz as my parents' music and held
the a bit of skepticism about the "jazz snob" approach to music.

Recently, my wife and I have begun a musical project performing the music of
Ella Fitzgerald, Dinah Washington, Sarah Vaughn and the great composers of
early/mid 20th century American jazz and blues. Although I'm approaching this
material more from a blues perspective, I will tell you straight up this is the
most interesting music I've played. The melodies and lyrics (OK, not ALL the
lyrics...) are still interesting and fresh and lend themselves to improvisation
in a way no current popular music does. As musicians of my generation age, we
are beginning to appreciate the music that came before rock'n'roll. While this
has lead to a lot of rockers doing questionable versions of the classics, it may
also lead to a re-discovery of this great catalog of musical material and
hopefully to a new resurgence of popularity. And the way it will be performed
will add a new life as it incorporates the musicians' experiences in newer
musical forms into the compositions.

No musical form is dead as long as it's performed by dedicated musicians. There
are plenty of "early music" devotees if you know where to look. Certainly this
musical form is far from the mainstream but it is alive nonetheless. Jazz in
all its forms is far more visible than early music and I'm hard pressed to see
how you can consider it dead. It may have mutated as it evolved but it isn't
dead.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

On 18 Oct 2005 06:54:28 -0700, wrote:

Hi Julian:

Well, I'm sorry I made you sick. You've heard my opinions. Let's hear
yours. Are you a listener, musician, recording engineer? Are your
experiences different than mine and Uncle Russ'? Maybe we're missing
something. Your turn.

Regards, Dave

Dave,

First of all, thanks for your civil reply. It seems like a rare
courtesy on this group at times.

I do agree with you and Uncle Russ. My reply immediately before yours
to Uncle Russ' post should make it clear I do agree with him. As for
you I can hardly disagree with anything you say, it's just your
pessimistic attitude that's hard for me to take.

I'm not generally a Pollyanna but I live in Seattle where we arguably
have the best jazz radio station in the world, KPLU. It's playing in
my car every day. We have Garfield High School, Quincy Jones' alma
mata, whose students consistently bring home first prize in national
jazz contests. It's gotten so that the other local high schools are
so tired of Garfield always winning that several other Seattle schools
have been also ranking in the top honors nationally. We probably have
the best young jazz players in the country here. We have several
dance clubs of young adults 20 - 30 years old who are big time into
Swing Dancing and Lindy Hop. I know of a dozen places that teach
swing dancing. As I said in a previous post I believe it was when
people stopped dancing, that jazz began to decline. With people
dancing to jazz here it's hard for me to see jazz as dying. I know we
are unique nationally, but IMO jazz is staying alive even though not
thriving on a large scale.

I agree with you that musicians now don't match up to the masters of
the past but I hardly think it is to be expected. Jazz and Swing was
a phenomenon of the times. They were times when our culture had much
different values and a much different personality. You blame the
downfall of jazz on be bop, but you underestimate the cultural changes
that came about with the end of World War II. Be Bop, Rock and Roll,
Country and Western were all reaction to the changing times and are
positive developments IMO. You blame the fall of jazz on be bop, but
I ask if the cerebral performance orientated un-danceable, self
indulgent noise that be bop turned into was the cause of jazz's
decline or instead a reaction to the fact no one ever danced to it any
more? Benny Goodman, the King of Swing was like Elvis (the King of
Rock and Roll) or the Beatles in his time. Kids all over the country
flocked to his performances. When that phenomenon changed, the whole
music and the whole culture changed as a result. You can't expect
times NOT to change.

I am appalled by the way you trash be bop in general. The early Be
Bop musicians were geniuses IMO. Charlie Parker really got it IMO and
carried through the whole idea of jazz improvisation started by
Coleman Hawkins and others to it's logical conclusion. After that it
just plain went down hill. Consider Miles Davis whose Bitches Brew is
probably the worst album ever made in my opinion but who also made
Kind of Blue, the very best album ever made IMO. At least he mastered
the old style first. Whatever you might say about Monk, if I could
ever play 1/10th as creatively as him, I'd die a happy man.

I also agree with you about the old piano players who as you say
played with all ten fingers. I love the early stride masters and
those like Fats Waller who followed. But I also appreciate
minimalism. My very favorite pianist ever, Teddy Wilson who knew how
to play with all ten of his fingers, but he also knew how to keep the
left hand down to 2 notes when it suited the music. Nat King Cole is
another guy who knew how to keep it simple but tasteful, not to
mention some of Duke Ellington's work.

I can hardly believe the way you trashed Ramsey Lewis and Nancy
Wilson. You seem to understand jazz possibly far better than me, but
why the hell tear 'em up like that? No doubt you are completely right
and the show sucked big time, but don't forget they're a couple of old
has beens just trying to make some dough. Let them be, Dave. Also
you don't know what the producers wanted. The bad show might not have
been their entire fault.

Sure the young kids these days don't measure up to the old masters who
lived when jazz was the culture instead of having to go way far out of
your way to be part of it. Why should you expect otherwise? There
are youngsters who do get it, like the young man you talk about in
your own band. The old recordings are still around to listen to.
They'll always be there for those who have ears to hear. They will
never disappear and there will always be a talented few who are
inspired to bring some of these elements into their own music. Jazz
will never return to it's hey day, but it will never die.

As for me, since you asked, I've been playing standards since I was a
10-year-old taking accordion lessons. I've never been a professional
musician, although I considered doing so in my 20's. I've worked as a
broadcast engineer building radio and video studios for the past 12
years and for 20 years before that I was an audio engineer. I
currently have a little swing band as a hobby. We don't play a lot of
gigs, but it is way fun and I am lucky to be joined by some great
swing players on occasion. I play piano and do the arrangements. We
play straight ahead 1935 - 1945 stuff by the classic composers with a
few more modern things, Latin numbers and other surprises thrown in
just so it doesn't get too predicable. Last time we played, over 300
people danced to us. It's hard for me to think jazz is dead.

Julian

Good stuff, Julian, and I agree with nearly all of it. (Except, despite your
own experiences, I reluctantly think jazz is on death's doorstep for reasons
within and beyond its control.)

Interesting that you should mention the swing clubs. Recently I played as a
"special guest star" with a pretty successful group in Southern California
that caters specifically to swing dancers, Jonathan Stout's Campus Five and
his big band. He works more than any straight jazz band I know and captures
the feel of the '35 to '45 era very well. Of course, nobody can make a
living from the band and most players generally aren't up to the level of
the better stuff from 70 years ago and Jonathan himself freely admits
there's no future in it.

Still, the big band played for a big three-day swing dance festival called
"Camp Hollywood" and it was really exciting. I thought for certain we were
seeing just the tip of an iceberg but Jonathan explained the days of the
swing dance revival are long gone and things are declining. I should add
that Jonathan is 24, most musicians in his band are in their 20s through
40s, and the dancers were also within that age group. (Man, it's great to
see pretty girls on the floor instead of the usual audience of people so old
they have trouble walking.)

So, if any kind of jazz can make a comeback, it will have to get people up
and dancing as enthusiastically and athletically as I saw at that festival.
I'd love to be one of the musicians to make it happen. And I'm all but
certain that some variant of swing and swing dancing would be the key.
Despite my pessimism, I plan to keep playing and promoting. It ain't over
'til it's over!!

"Uncle Russ" Reinberg

WESTLAKE PUBLISHING COMPANY
www.finescalerr.com
WESTLAKE RECORDS
www.westlakerecords.com

"Julian" wrote in message
...
On 18 Oct 2005 06:54:28 -0700, wrote:

Hi Julian:

Well, I'm sorry I made you sick. You've heard my opinions. Let's hear
yours. Are you a listener, musician, recording engineer? Are your
experiences different than mine and Uncle Russ'? Maybe we're missing
something. Your turn.

Regards, Dave

Dave,

First of all, thanks for your civil reply. It seems like a rare
courtesy on this group at times.

I do agree with you and Uncle Russ. My reply immediately before yours
to Uncle Russ' post should make it clear I do agree with him. As for
you I can hardly disagree with anything you say, it's just your
pessimistic attitude that's hard for me to take.

I'm not generally a Pollyanna but I live in Seattle where we arguably
have the best jazz radio station in the world, KPLU. It's playing in
my car every day. We have Garfield High School, Quincy Jones' alma
mata, whose students consistently bring home first prize in national
jazz contests. It's gotten so that the other local high schools are
so tired of Garfield always winning that several other Seattle schools
have been also ranking in the top honors nationally. We probably have
the best young jazz players in the country here. We have several
dance clubs of young adults 20 - 30 years old who are big time into
Swing Dancing and Lindy Hop. I know of a dozen places that teach
swing dancing. As I said in a previous post I believe it was when
people stopped dancing, that jazz began to decline. With people
dancing to jazz here it's hard for me to see jazz as dying. I know we
are unique nationally, but IMO jazz is staying alive even though not
thriving on a large scale.

I agree with you that musicians now don't match up to the masters of
the past but I hardly think it is to be expected. Jazz and Swing was
a phenomenon of the times. They were times when our culture had much
different values and a much different personality. You blame the
downfall of jazz on be bop, but you underestimate the cultural changes
that came about with the end of World War II. Be Bop, Rock and Roll,
Country and Western were all reaction to the changing times and are
positive developments IMO. You blame the fall of jazz on be bop, but
I ask if the cerebral performance orientated un-danceable, self
indulgent noise that be bop turned into was the cause of jazz's
decline or instead a reaction to the fact no one ever danced to it any
more? Benny Goodman, the King of Swing was like Elvis (the King of
Rock and Roll) or the Beatles in his time. Kids all over the country
flocked to his performances. When that phenomenon changed, the whole
music and the whole culture changed as a result. You can't expect
times NOT to change.

I am appalled by the way you trash be bop in general. The early Be
Bop musicians were geniuses IMO. Charlie Parker really got it IMO and
carried through the whole idea of jazz improvisation started by
Coleman Hawkins and others to it's logical conclusion. After that it
just plain went down hill. Consider Miles Davis whose Bitches Brew is
probably the worst album ever made in my opinion but who also made
Kind of Blue, the very best album ever made IMO. At least he mastered
the old style first. Whatever you might say about Monk, if I could
ever play 1/10th as creatively as him, I'd die a happy man.

I also agree with you about the old piano players who as you say
played with all ten fingers. I love the early stride masters and
those like Fats Waller who followed. But I also appreciate
minimalism. My very favorite pianist ever, Teddy Wilson who knew how
to play with all ten of his fingers, but he also knew how to keep the
left hand down to 2 notes when it suited the music. Nat King Cole is
another guy who knew how to keep it simple but tasteful, not to
mention some of Duke Ellington's work.

I can hardly believe the way you trashed Ramsey Lewis and Nancy
Wilson. You seem to understand jazz possibly far better than me, but
why the hell tear 'em up like that? No doubt you are completely right
and the show sucked big time, but don't forget they're a couple of old
has beens just trying to make some dough. Let them be, Dave. Also
you don't know what the producers wanted. The bad show might not have
been their entire fault.

Sure the young kids these days don't measure up to the old masters who
lived when jazz was the culture instead of having to go way far out of
your way to be part of it. Why should you expect otherwise? There
are youngsters who do get it, like the young man you talk about in
your own band. The old recordings are still around to listen to.
They'll always be there for those who have ears to hear. They will
never disappear and there will always be a talented few who are
inspired to bring some of these elements into their own music. Jazz
will never return to it's hey day, but it will never die.

As for me, since you asked, I've been playing standards since I was a
10-year-old taking accordion lessons. I've never been a professional
musician, although I considered doing so in my 20's. I've worked as a
broadcast engineer building radio and video studios for the past 12
years and for 20 years before that I was an audio engineer. I
currently have a little swing band as a hobby. We don't play a lot of
gigs, but it is way fun and I am lucky to be joined by some great
swing players on occasion. I play piano and do the arrangements. We
play straight ahead 1935 - 1945 stuff by the classic composers with a
few more modern things, Latin numbers and other surprises thrown in
just so it doesn't get too predicable. Last time we played, over 300
people danced to us. It's hard for me to think jazz is dead.

Julian

Hi Julian:

Thanks much for your long reply. I've read it thoroughly and
understand your thoughts.
Most are mine as well although if you read my post carefully you'll see
I didn't trash Ramsey himself as his accompanying piano playing (very
little of it) was well done. Nancy, however, whom I used to like was
just over the top and should know better.

I just finished playing a jazz festival in Medford, OR where I heard
two young and lovely ladies from the Seattle area (I think) sitting in
with one of the groups. One played trumpet and one clarinet. They
play with a group called Mighty Aphrodite. Have you heard of them?
Barely out of their teens and both fine examples of the very young
learning and having fine feel for early jazz - trad, dixieland, classic
- whatever you want to call it.

It isn't that some fine young players aren't coming along. It's really
that they have few contemporaries to play for and few others who have
any sense of what they're trying to do. And that's the part about jazz
being nearly dead or so it seems for those of us who have been playing
long enough to have had significant numbers of the general public
regularly come out to hear and cheer. One of my 6 piece trad bands
played continuously for almost 30 years from the early '60's through
the 80's at least once-a-week for full houses at just two different
locations - one a peanuts-on-the-floor bar seating (mostly standing)
150 and the other a family restaurant seating over 200.

It's those times which are dead and gone and which we lament. Of
course for most of that period a broad range of music was played on
commercial radio and TV and people could hear the variety, get to know
it, and come out to hear it. And you could hear smatterings of great
big band music every night of the week just by tuning in Johnny Carson!
Why did that change when Leno (who can't carry Johnny's lunch box as a
comedian) came along? Who told him to replace Doc's gang with the
putrid crap put out by that guitar player with the phony smile?

Most people with any degree of intelligence, integrity, and awareness
feel that the US culture is in the toilet in almost all respects. So I
suppose we can agree that swinging melodic jazz with all it's
subtleties is just too esoteric for the masses anymore since they have
all they can handle with the garbage being dished out by money grubbing
CEO's panderering to the lowest common denominator. Right here in
River City (Grand Rapids, MI) where I live, the biggest draws for the
year at the local 13,000 seat arena were listed in the paper the other
day. Monster Trucks and some country guy named Kenny Chesney were the
winners. The country guy sold out two shows in 45 minutes - 26,000
people paid $50-75 per ticket. The review said that Mr. Chesney spent
most of his time on stage "jumping up and down and running from one
side of the stage to the other", that the beer lines were long, and the
people down in front did a lot of screaming. Nothing was mentioned
about the quality of the "music" pro or con.

For all practical purposes, then, jazz as we knew and loved it is
essentially relegated to the few festivals which survive with
diminishing crowds and zero media coverage. We're still out there
doing it but certainly with only our own energies to motivate. Glad to
hear you're finding some satisfying gigs. Certainly the swing dancers
are helping to keep the pilot light lit and dancers in general continue
to attend the festivals we play - those who can still get up out of
their seats.

There remain quite a few jazz stations (mostly all public radio) and
apparently you have a good one in your area. We have several but all
are mostly populated with psuedo DJ's who think it all began with the
Bop era. Rarely, if ever, do they play anything by such masters as
George Shearing, Shelley Manne, Dave Pell, Oscar Peterson, Erroll
Garner, Jim Hall, George VanEps, Barney Kessel, Ray Brown, Andre
Previn, Paul Desmond, Basie, Goodman, Dorsey, let alone the giants
Armstrong, Waller, Tatum, and countless others. It's all Monk, Parker,
Coltrane, Miles (who played out-of-tune much of the time with that
harmon mute), and other such frequently grooveless (and
danceless)experimenters. Sorry, but while these guys all could play
some nice stuff on occasion much of it was just noise - particularly
for the man-in-the-street who had no idea of what skill and talent it
might have involved.

So, jazz may not be precisely dead, but it is certainly relegated to
little tiny corners.

Keep the flame burning as best you can and we'll do the same.

Regards,

Dave

On 19 Oct 2005 20:43:56 -0700, wrote:

Hi Julian:

Thanks much for your long reply. I've read it thoroughly and
understand your thoughts

I just finished playing a jazz festival in Medford, OR where I heard
two young and lovely ladies from the Seattle area (I think) sitting in
with one of the groups. One played trumpet and one clarinet. They
play with a group called Mighty Aphrodite. Have you heard of them?

I haven't.


There remain quite a few jazz stations (mostly all public radio) and
apparently you have a good one in your area. We have several but all
are mostly populated with psuedo DJ's who think it all began with the
Bop era. Rarely, if ever, do they play anything by such masters as
George Shearing, Shelley Manne, Dave Pell, Oscar Peterson, Erroll
Garner, Jim Hall, George VanEps, Barney Kessel, Ray Brown, Andre
Previn, Paul Desmond, Basie, Goodman, Dorsey, let alone the giants
Armstrong, Waller, Tatum, and countless others.

You might want to check out KPLU.org. Many of these artists can be
heard there but not much big band or vintage stuff except on Sunday
afternoon. They do feature a lot of decent piano players and singers.
I first heard Gene Harris there. I think it was the only time I ever
called the station. I had to know who that guy was immediately!

Cheers,

Julian

Hi Julian:

Gene Harris should have been on my list. I have two late and
excellently recorded Concord LP's he's on - The Gene Harris All-Star
Big Band and The Red Hot Ray Brown Trio. If you don't have them, let
me know and I'll make you a couple of CD's.

Regards,

Dave