"xrongor" wrote in message
...

:

YOU LOST. Shut the **** up and get over it.

bush deserves the same treatment clinton got. except bush is actually
guilty.

If he lies under oath like Billy Jeff did, then yes, he deserves to be
impeached.

In article ,
says...

Dear Sirs,

AFAIK here in old Europe 75% or more of the population hoped for Kerry.
We're not a dangerous bunch of commies, we just would have felt better if
America had "relaxed" a bit its tendency to bomb everything that moves. A
short personal story: once upon a time I was traveling on a Greyhound when a
redneck sitting next to me asked "wheraeyafrom?". Italy, I said. Then he
took the US map I had on my knees and aiming his finger somewhere between
Iowa and the Lakes said "It's here, isnt'it?".
This is the point. I suspect that 50+% of US voters do not have the palest
idea about the bare existence of the whole rest of the world, therefore
bombing them is just a part of a TV show: is it CNN or is it Terminator vs.
Alien? Same tomato juice, virtual. Nobody cares but the ones in the wrong
column of the statistics, the "collateral effects". And they do not vote.

Anyway, other 4 years without Kyoto protocol and we'll be all steam cooked
together with the whole planet: left, right and middle, north and south.
And all rifles of Mr. Valve's private armory will not save him or anybody
else from this. Trust an oil engineer.

So long

Fabio

It is demonstratively provable the many Bush voters are ignorant.

http://www.pipa.org/

In article , says...

You lost. Get over it.

LV


You won. You pay for it.
US National debt = $7,454,169,115,545
Bush is increasing the debt twice as fast as Clinton did, even if you remove
the millitary buikd-up costs.

"Don" wrote in message
news:CfCid.355004$MQ5.185483@attbi_s52...
In article ,

says...

Dear Sirs,

AFAIK here in old Europe 75% or more of the population hoped for Kerry.
We're not a dangerous bunch of commies, we just would have felt better if
America had "relaxed" a bit its tendency to bomb everything that moves.
A
short personal story: once upon a time I was traveling on a Greyhound
when a
redneck sitting next to me asked "wheraeyafrom?". Italy, I said. Then he
took the US map I had on my knees and aiming his finger somewhere between
Iowa and the Lakes said "It's here, isnt'it?".
This is the point. I suspect that 50+% of US voters do not have the
palest
idea about the bare existence of the whole rest of the world, therefore
bombing them is just a part of a TV show: is it CNN or is it Terminator
vs.
Alien? Same tomato juice, virtual. Nobody cares but the ones in the
wrong
column of the statistics, the "collateral effects". And they do not
vote.

Anyway, other 4 years without Kyoto protocol and we'll be all steam
cooked
together with the whole planet: left, right and middle, north and south.
And all rifles of Mr. Valve's private armory will not save him or anybody
else from this. Trust an oil engineer.

So long

Fabio

It is demonstratively provable the many Bush voters are ignorant.

http://www.pipa.org/



What is this war in Iraq about? go here
www.ratical.com/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html
........GC

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:34:36 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:

A Labour government invented the concentration camps.

Excuse me? Concentration camps were invented by the English during the
Boer War, when your Labour party didn't even exist!

I believe you are mistaken.

Concentration camps were invented by the Spanish in Cuba in 1896, some
four years before their use by British liberals in South Africa during
the Second Anglo Boer War.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/sec...esofthewar.asp
http://www.bartleby.com/65/sp/SpanAmWar.html
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0861237.html
http://aolsvc.aol.factmonster.com/ce.../A0861237.html


"Causes of the War

Demands by Cuban patriots for independence from Spanish rule made
U.S. intervention in Cuba a paramount issue in the relations between
the United States and Spain from the 1870s to 1898. Sympathy for the
Cuban insurgents ran high in America, especially after the savage
Ten Years War (1868-78) and the unsuccessful revolt of 1895. After
efforts to quell guerrilla activity had failed, the Spanish military
commander, Valeriano Weyler y Nicolau, instituted the reconcentrado,
or concentration camp, system in 1896; Cuba's rural population was
forcibly confined to centrally located garrison towns, where thousands
died from disease, starvation, and exposure."

http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/reconcentrado.htm

The Spanish speak Spanish, rather than English, and this
means they have different names for things. Their camps in Cuba
(1896) were called 'Reconcentration camps' or 'reconcentrados'.
However, the process was one of concentration, as in the later
Boer War, not reconcentration. The Cuban civilians were in a
dispersed condition in the Cuban countryside, and then they were
collected and imprisoned in camps. The camp at Havana killed
50,000 people, more than all the Boer War camps put together.

http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oagld003.php
This URL quotes Senator Redfield Proctor in Clara Barton's
book "Concentration Camps of Cuba 1895-1898". 1896 is well
before the Second Anglo Boer War. Proctor's account clearly
describes concentration camps, however, people - notably
Irish - sometimes try to pretend that barbed wire fences,
trenches and blockhouses are normal features of Spanish
architecture.

The claim that the British invented concenrtation camps comes from
Dr. Goebbels:

According to Robertson, Patrick. "The Book of Firsts," Clarkson N.
Potter,
Inc., New York, 1974, p. 44.

"The idea that the British 'invented' concentration camps was fostered
by Dr. Goebbels during the 1930s. In 1938 Nazi propaganda picture
postcards, formerly sold as 'genuine Russian concentration camp scenes',
were relabelled for issue as 'genuine British concentration camp scenes in
South Africa'."

Anne Applebaum:

"As not everybody remembers, the Germans briefly had African colonies:
one of them was Deutsche Sud-West Afrika, now Namibia. The territory
was populated by the Herero, a tribe whose presence the Germans
resented; not only did their numbers hampered white settlement, but their
presence violated the ethnic purity of the new "German" state. At first, the
colonial policy was simply to slaughter the Herero. To some of the German
colonists, this seemed inefficient. Following the British example in
neighboring South Africa, the Herero were duly driven into concentration
camps. But the Herero were not merely starved. They also died of
exhaustion, carrying out forced labour on behalf of the German colony.
At the beginning of 1905, there had been 14,000 Herero in captivity. By
the end of that year, half were dead.

Because of the Herero, the word Konzentrationslager first appeared in
German, in 1905. It was also in these African camps that the first
German medical experiments were conducted on human beings. Two of Joseph
Mengele's teachers, Theodor Mollison and Eugen Fischer, carried out
research on the Herero, the latter in an attempt to prove his theories
about the superiority of the white race. Nor was he alone in his beliefs.
In 1912, a best-selling German book, German Thought in the World, claimed
that nothing "can convince reasonable people the preservation of a tribe
of South African kaffirs is more important for the future of humanity
than the expansion of the great European nations and the white race in
general," and that "it is only when the indigenous peoples have learned
to produce something of value in the service of the superior race..that
they can be said to have a moral right to exist."

The resemblance to the racist language of the Holocaust is clear enough;
there was, in addition, one further strange coincidence. The first
imperial commissioner of Deutsche Sud-West Afrika was one Dr Heinrich
Goering the father of Hermann , who set up the first Nazi camps in
1933."

On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:10:59 GMT, Lord Valve
wrote:

CFS wrote:

Brutha Valve,

You are such a right wing asshole!

A-

-men. : )



Ain't it grand?

It sure is. 4 more years, yeee haaaw.


Lord Valve
Charter Member, VRC

You lost. Get over it.

LV



Jon Yaeger sobbed:

(crap)

Choky wrote:

you lost Mr. Valve ;

Hey, y'all fix all of those bridges on the Danube yet?

That nice feller Klintoon (who I'm sure is one of the
favorite leftists of this sad, sorry-ass jerkwater
excuse for a newsgroup) had a rather interesting
impact on your infrastructure, or so I've heard.

Enjoy.

Lord Valve
American

You lost. Get over it.

LV



Don slobbered:

(crap)

On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 21:44:21 +0000, Max Muir wrote:

The Spanish speak Spanish, rather than English, and this means they have
different names for things. Their camps in Cuba (1896) were called
'Reconcentration camps' or 'reconcentrados'. However, the process was one
of concentration, as in the later Boer War, not reconcentration.

The prefix "re" in Spanish isn't used the same as the
prefix "re" in English, it's often used as an amplifier
rather than an indication that something was done a second time.
Examples: frijoles refritos are only fried once, chiles
rellenos are only stuffed once. But they're stuffed very
well!


--
Ned Carlson Triode Electronics Chicago,IL USA
www.triodeelectronics.com

Max Muir wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:34:36 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:

A Labour government invented the concentration camps.

Excuse me? Concentration camps were invented by the English during the
Boer War, when your Labour party didn't even exist!

I believe you are mistaken.

I was using the word "invented" rather too loosely,
and of course all you experts jumped on me.

I hope this thread wears itself out soon.

All this blather and BS, and the world does not improove one bit.

The Labour party didn't invent the concentration camp as such.
It did introduce the scheme whereby "illegal immigrants", mainly
refugees, were locked up for years like criminals, with their children,
until a "solution" could be found as to what to do with them, maybe
deport them back "home" or grant them refugee status.
The process of finding out what to do with these ppl who had no passport,
or who had thrown it overboard began to take years, and to me there should have been a
3 month limit as to how long detention could have been done, and if no solution
was found, it should have been a case of
"ok, you win, your'e free."
The crime Bloward committed was to allow the time to roll on, deliberately, and
have these people rot in the jails he built for them, instead of being able
to work, and be useful to themselves, and to everyone else.

The Bloward government expanded the scheme when the boatloads if illegals mushroomed
a few years back because they were so inept at keeping them out.
Bloward shouldn't have been so upset when he left the door open.
The injustice against these immigrants continues, and the navy has been made more
effective, so the tide of people has virtually stopped.

The schemes or plans used to control the people flows have been extremely expensive
when worked out per head of person detained.
It included the use of US based "security" companies,
and the guys who work in these companies are not very nice people.
The Oz taxpayer would have been far better off had Bloward just freed all these
unfortunate poor *******s and allowed them to be Australians whilst shutting door on any more coming our way
with the navy. A country has the right to shut its door, like you do if
someone knocks on your door.
But no, Bloward is mean and tricky, and racist, and used these poor folks as pawns to win
the "fear vote" at election time.

But people all over are too stupid to see such injustices, and most folks
are unaware of all the finer points of government mis-dealings,
as they are about the real reasons for the war in Iraq,
and as they are about the economy, or the hospitals, which are always said to be in fine shape
until the other side of politics finally scores a win.

Stupid people with the vote are a danger to themselves, but its better to have
votes in the ballot box than pools of blood everywhere you go caused by
rebels fighting for a cause.
Voting here is compulsory for all, and I don't know if that means compulsory
stupidity, rather than the voluntary stupudity that occurs in the US.
Its said that only 1/7 of US voters know where Iraq is.
Maybe not even 1/7 of Iraqis would have the feintest idea what democracy might be.


When elections are held, I am amused, but never depressed.




Patrick Turner.

This is not a game, I only try to REASON and I think the whole world lost,
'cause nobody breathes from a different atmosphere.
Incidentally, I'm not writing to anybody in such an unpolite way: is this an
example of the tolerance and politeness that some part of the US is showing
to the world?

Yours sincerely

Fabio

BTW I just finished to reload some .45ACP for my customized Colt Gold Cup.
It seems that the only way of getting Your respect is to deal with such
toys.



"Lord Valve" ha scritto nel messaggio
...


Fabio Berutti wrote:

Dear Sirs,

AFAIK here in old Europe 75% or more of the population hoped for Kerry.

You lost. Shut the **** up and get over it, asshole.

Lord Valve
American

Again you lost. Get over it.
one day nobody will left for NATO bullies ;
that day will be also day of your last joy ,not mine .
btw-via Serbian Danube only NATO asslickers can't navigate......

--
.................................................. ........................
Choky
Prodanovic Aleksandar
YU

"don't use force, "don't use force,
use a larger hammer" use a larger tube
- Choky and IST"
- ZM
.................................................. ...........................
"Lord Valve" wrote in message
...


Choky wrote:

you lost Mr. Valve ;

Hey, y'all fix all of those bridges on the Danube yet?

That nice feller Klintoon (who I'm sure is one of the
favorite leftists of this sad, sorry-ass jerkwater
excuse for a newsgroup) had a rather interesting
impact on your infrastructure, or so I've heard.

Enjoy.

Lord Valve
American

"Ned Carlson" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 21:44:21 +0000, Max Muir wrote:

The Spanish speak Spanish, rather than English, and this means they have
different names for things. Their camps in Cuba (1896) were called
'Reconcentration camps' or 'reconcentrados'. However, the process was one
of concentration, as in the later Boer War, not reconcentration.

The prefix "re" in Spanish isn't used the same as the
prefix "re" in English, it's often used as an amplifier
rather than an indication that something was done a second time.
Examples: frijoles refritos are only fried once, chiles
rellenos are only stuffed once. But they're stuffed very
well!

Carl; I've always wondered about that! Thanks for your
re-explanation.

Best regards,
Max

"Fabio Berutti" wrote in message
...
Dear Sirs,

AFAIK here in old Europe 75% or more of the population hoped for Kerry.
We're not a dangerous bunch of commies, we just would have felt better if
America had "relaxed" a bit its tendency to bomb everything that moves.
SNIP
America is not europe, Kerry should run the EU...........GC

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:12:26 GMT, "Fabio Berutti"
wrote:

Incidentally, I'm not writing to anybody in such an unpolite way: is this an
example of the tolerance and politeness that some part of the US is showing
to the world?


Is it polite and tolerant for you to judge a whole country by one
person that you met on a Greyhound bus? Most adults with more than a
4th grade education never ride Greyhound buses.

I have a number of Italian friends and acquaintances, but would never
think that they are stupid, just from hearing from an imbecile like
you.

mangia u'gatz


Brian McAllister

Sarasota, Florida

email bkm at oldtech dot net

"Ned Carlson" wrote i
And those machines don't make a paper trail to audit. Unlike,
say, Australia, where they use plain ol' paper ballots.

Another difference here is Australia is that voting is compulsory.

First, I didn't judge anybody: I just started from an old personal
experience to express my point of view.
Second, I'm not using the only 3 words of Your language I know to tell You
what to eat.
Third, disagreeing is not offending, or at least it is not meant to be.
Relax. This is only a NG, it's not the III WW. There are no enemies under
Your bed.

Ciao

Fabio


"Brian McAllister" ha scritto nel messaggio
...
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:12:26 GMT, "Fabio Berutti"
wrote:

Incidentally, I'm not writing to anybody in such an unpolite way: is this
an
example of the tolerance and politeness that some part of the US is
showing
to the world?


Is it polite and tolerant for you to judge a whole country by one
person that you met on a Greyhound bus? Most adults with more than a
4th grade education never ride Greyhound buses.

I have a number of Italian friends and acquaintances, but would never
think that they are stupid, just from hearing from an imbecile like
you.

mangia u'gatz


Brian McAllister

Sarasota, Florida

email bkm at oldtech dot net

Fabio Berutti wrote:

First, I didn't judge anybody: I just started from an old personal
experience to express my point of view.
Second, I'm not using the only 3 words of Your language I know to tell You
what to eat.
Third, disagreeing is not offending, or at least it is not meant to be.
Relax. This is only a NG, it's not the III WW. There are no enemies under
Your bed.

I dunno, that's not what some of the lame brained right wing pollytishuns here
have told us over the years.
Watch out, they warned, there's a communist hiding under your bed.

There is no accounting for taste some wives show when selecting
a gigilo.

Despite their antics, nobody much voted for the communists here, ever.
We've never fallen for that "what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine too"
BS.

Patrick Turner.



Ciao

Fabio

"Brian McAllister" ha scritto nel messaggio
...
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:12:26 GMT, "Fabio Berutti"
wrote:

Incidentally, I'm not writing to anybody in such an unpolite way: is this
an
example of the tolerance and politeness that some part of the US is
showing
to the world?


Is it polite and tolerant for you to judge a whole country by one
person that you met on a Greyhound bus? Most adults with more than a
4th grade education never ride Greyhound buses.

I have a number of Italian friends and acquaintances, but would never
think that they are stupid, just from hearing from an imbecile like
you.

mangia u'gatz


Brian McAllister

Sarasota, Florida

email bkm at oldtech dot net

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 11:24:06 GMT, "Fabio Berutti"
wrote:

First, I didn't judge anybody: I just started from an old personal
experience to express my point of view.
Second, I'm not using the only 3 words of Your language I know to tell You
what to eat.
Third, disagreeing is not offending, or at least it is not meant to be.
Relax. This is only a NG, it's not the III WW. There are no enemies under
Your bed.

Ciao

Fabio


"Brian McAllister" ha scritto nel messaggio
.. .
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:12:26 GMT, "Fabio Berutti"
wrote:

Incidentally, I'm not writing to anybody in such an unpolite way: is this
an
example of the tolerance and politeness that some part of the US is
showing
to the world?


Is it polite and tolerant for you to judge a whole country by one
person that you met on a Greyhound bus? Most adults with more than a
4th grade education never ride Greyhound buses.

I have a number of Italian friends and acquaintances, but would never
think that they are stupid, just from hearing from an imbecile like
you.

mangia u'gatz


Brian McAllister


Quote from Fabio Berutti: " A short personal story: once upon a time I
was traveling on a Greyhound when a redneck sitting next to me asked
"wheraeyafrom?". Italy, I said. Then he took the US map I had on my
knees and aiming his finger somewhere between Iowa and the Lakes said
"It's here, isnt'it?".This is the point. I suspect that 50+% of US
voters do not have the palest idea about the bare existence of the
whole rest of the world"

Using the same logic: The only homosexual child molester that I have
met (as far as I know) was Italian. Therefore I suspect that 50%+ of
Italians are homosexual child molesters, and that Fabio would consider
my closing a message of good wishes (not), especially since he
considers his statement an example of tolerence and politeness. At
least I am smart enough to know when I am insulting people.

Or , are insults ok if they are against Americans or delivered by
leftists, and not ok if they are delivered by Americans or against
leftists? Are we some subhuman species to be belittled and insulted
at will? I only entered this so-called discussion because I felt
grossly insulted by Fabio, and not being a Christian, I did not feel
compelled to "turn the other cheek".

By the way, in reply to another in this thread. there are still
communists IN the bed in Italy (the birthplace of Fascism), not only
under it.

Brian McAllister

Sarasota, Florida

email bkm at oldtech dot net

Ronald wrote:

Hi Carrol ,

I couldn't say it better !!

Ronald .

"Carroll Conklin" schreef in bericht
...
Please don't respond to political/sexual cross-postings!!!!!

I put the *******s in my kill file. If anyone responds, I can't eliminate
the reply posts because they may be from someone in the group. I would
like
to have the banality removed from the list that pops up every time I open
the newsgroup. I can't do this completely without black-listing someone
who,
normally, has pertinent things to say. Keep it Tube-y!

Please help to eliminate these pests BY NOT RESPONDING!

Thank you,

Carroll



You cannot escape the world or keep
rec.audio.tubes as a private sanctuary where the world won't intrude, imho.

There are some folks here who wouldn't ever partake in the hot air windbagging
that goes on at rec.political.windy et all and they cannot help saying
a few words when some major world event happens, like sep11
or the US presidentail elections. Its all they can think of at the time,
so its better they get it out of their system before moving on, rather than
pretend
nothing has happened, and we are the only people who they hang out with.

I don't kill file any poster. I like to see the whole group as it is,
with its idiosyncrasies and age lines.

I am not obsessive about how the group looks when I open up
the header list.....

It wories me not that I see fine row of roses,
with an occasional thistle.

Patrick Turner.

Fabio:
I hope you and the "rest" of the world keep remembering that about 50%
of us were Kerry & Nader supporters. I, for one, understand your
concerns. Most 'Muricans haven't traveled enough overseas to have any
profound understanding of the world outside the US. Their knowledge of
history and geography is abysmal. They get almost all of their news
from TV, and I'm not talking BBC or PBS, and it shows. Intelligent
objective analysis like The Economist, The Guardian, National Policy
Quarterly, and such, are not even on the horizon. Bush doesn't even
like to read!! And can you imagine, he'd never even been out of the US
prior to his initial assumption of power. An lazy, uninformed, and
intellectually uncurious public, or policymaker, is hardly likely to
make decisions that are insightful or competent.

Just keep in mind that your disagreement is with the current (insert
adjectives here) administration and their (more adjectives) ideologies
and policies. That will change eventually. When reading the all-too
frequent intemperate postings here, consider the source...and by now
we know who "they" are. No nasty name calling need be done, their
views and their profane attempts to express them do that for them
quite nicely. Just watch.
Roger Anderson in VT


Brian McAllister wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 11:24:06 GMT, "Fabio Berutti"
wrote:

First, I didn't judge anybody: I just started from an old personal
experience to express my point of view.
Second, I'm not using the only 3 words of Your language I know to tell You
what to eat.
Third, disagreeing is not offending, or at least it is not meant to be.
Relax. This is only a NG, it's not the III WW. There are no enemies under
Your bed.

Ciao

Fabio


"Brian McAllister" ha scritto nel messaggio
.. .
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:12:26 GMT, "Fabio Berutti"
wrote:

Incidentally, I'm not writing to anybody in such an unpolite way: is this
an
example of the tolerance and politeness that some part of the US is
showing
to the world?


Is it polite and tolerant for you to judge a whole country by one
person that you met on a Greyhound bus? Most adults with more than a
4th grade education never ride Greyhound buses.

I have a number of Italian friends and acquaintances, but would never
think that they are stupid, just from hearing from an imbecile like
you.

mangia u'gatz


Brian McAllister


Quote from Fabio Berutti: " A short personal story: once upon a time I
was traveling on a Greyhound when a redneck sitting next to me asked
"wheraeyafrom?". Italy, I said. Then he took the US map I had on my
knees and aiming his finger somewhere between Iowa and the Lakes said
"It's here, isnt'it?".This is the point. I suspect that 50+% of US
voters do not have the palest idea about the bare existence of the
whole rest of the world"

Using the same logic: The only homosexual child molester that I have
met (as far as I know) was Italian. Therefore I suspect that 50%+ of
Italians are homosexual child molesters, and that Fabio would consider
my closing a message of good wishes (not), especially since he
considers his statement an example of tolerence and politeness. At
least I am smart enough to know when I am insulting people.

Or , are insults ok if they are against Americans or delivered by
leftists, and not ok if they are delivered by Americans or against
leftists? Are we some subhuman species to be belittled and insulted
at will? I only entered this so-called discussion because I felt
grossly insulted by Fabio, and not being a Christian, I did not feel
compelled to "turn the other cheek".

By the way, in reply to another in this thread. there are still
communists IN the bed in Italy (the birthplace of Fascism), not only
under it.

Brian McAllister

Sarasota, Florida

email bkm at oldtech dot net

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over,
their spells dissolved, and the people recovering their true sight,
restoring their government to its true principles. It is true,
that in the meantime, we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring
the horrors of a war, and long oppressions of enormous public debt.
[...]
If the game runs sometimes against us at home, we must have patience
till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back
the principles we have lost. For this is a game where principles are
the stake.



Lord Valve wrote:
You lost. Get over it.

LV

You lost. Get over it.

LV



Walther cut/pasted:

(doesn't apply)

It wories me not that I see fine row of roses,
with an occasional thistle.

Hey! I for one like thistles.
"http://my-favorite-florist.com/Herbs & thistles.jpg"

I hope you and the "rest" of the world keep remembering that about 50%
of us were Kerry & Nader supporters.

Some of you were Nader supporters? How embarassing.

Watch out, they warned, there's a communist hiding under your bed.

Here in Canada, the commies are not hiding at all. They even hold 19 seats
in parliament...

Oh well, at least the Greens didn't get any. Then again, not much
difference. The Greens are like watermelons -- green on the outside, red
on the inside.

Prune wrote:

It wories me not that I see fine row of roses,
with an occasional thistle.

Hey! I for one like thistles.
"http://my-favorite-florist.com/Herbs & thistles.jpg"

When you see the thistle infestations choking good farmland in Oz,
one is saddened by the stupidity of our early settlers who brought with
them
all the pests from olde europe.
The foxes and rabbits and wild pigs are real bad news here, but the real

pest to the environment is man.
It has been estimated 6,000 animals die in car accidents in NSW alone
each day.

There are a whole lot of other plant pests here.

Being a city man, the occasional thistle worries me not,
but where I see them gathered like invading trifids, I feel sorry
for the farmers.

When we are bright eyed and bushy tailed in youth, we see all is rosy
and
prosperity beckons.
When we become sour old roosters, we have seen the realities and evil,
and some of us see through the fogs of BS, and its easy to loose one's
youthful ideals
about making a better world.
Many political old roosters should forthwith be turned into feather
dusters,
but then we could be saddled with the foolish man under 50,
whose wisdom rests on sand foundations.

The death rate on the roads amoungst the humans in Iran is estimated at
25,000 per year.
Not many wild animals on the roads, they musta run over most of them.
Ah, the wonder of trust in Alah, when you can't afford to fix the
brakes.

I dunno what it like is in Iraq, and I'd say the car accident rate is
probably only slightly worse
because of the roadside bombs and terrorists, not to mention the
thousands there
trying to kick the yanks off their soil.

Let me see now, 12,000 americans shoot each other dead each year,
and about 50,000 die on the roads.

Sounds about right, we lose about 3,000 per annum on roads,
but only about 60 from shootings.

Makes you wonder what all the fuss is about a few blokes dying in a war.

But wars are the product of political will, accidents are not.

We are a hopeless lot us humans, we strut life's stage all puffed up;
the most basic problems are far from cured, except for a small minority
in rich countries with good dentists, and we worry most about
what is our least risk of death, lest our puffed-upness
be seen to deflate floppily.
Meanwhile every other species is pressed towards extinction,
and our effect here on the planet will reduce the wonder with which we
view nature,
which will finish up all caged, or just a memory.
In a hundred years there won't be a football team called the Tigers;
they will have been extinct for 70 years.

Music, chess and a quiet life is about all I can do against
rampant consumerism, and putting on the style and agony.

Patrick Turner.

Prune wrote:

Watch out, they warned, there's a communist hiding under your bed.

Here in Canada, the commies are not hiding at all. They even hold 19 seats
in parliament...

Oh well, at least the Greens didn't get any. Then again, not much
difference. The Greens are like watermelons -- green on the outside, red
on the inside.

Communists have never fared well in Oz politically.
But the Green vote is the brightest we've seen it for years,
mainly propelled by 7% of the population who are fed up
with the lies of the big parties, and their in-bedness with either big business

or the darn unions.
Either way, we are managing to fall the most precious stands of old growth
forests
in Tasmania.

Even if all the folks in the West, ie, about 20% of the population of the world

drew in their belts tightly and acted entirely ethically, and allowed the
natural world to not lose an inch more of its unspoilt wonders,
then we'd still be all acting unsustainably, since all the have nots
only have to increase their consumption by 50%, not much,
and the drain on the globe is the same, and the ultimate outlook is gloomy,
since as my ancient economics teacher said, only demand has no limits.

We might all become quite depressed as a species, amoungst the mess we make,
and not get around to breeding much, since depression leads to flacidity,
and womanly headaches, so that'll be better for the environment than any
government run by
a bunch of loonies expecting everyone under 80 to use a bicycle to get to work
or become vegans....
( If they did, we'd need far more hospitals...)
But somehow I think the drug companies will make pills for depression
more potent as the reasons to cause symptoms get worse and worse,
and that'll keep people acting neurotically, like trying to keep up with the
Jones,
lest the economy collapse.......

Pity help the dude trying to make it through a day in 2104 without taking
a pill or something!

10,000 years of civilisation have passed since its invention in Iraq,
and it looks like failing us.....
A million years of evolution within nature, and nature will be gone....

But then in 2104, life now will be seen as primitive as we see the ancient
Greeks who managed to experiment with democracy,
even without ellctronic voting machines.

Patrick Turner.

Patrick Turner wrote:

but the real pest to the environment is man.

Do the world a favor and kill yourself.

Lord Valve
Environmentalist

But the Green vote is the brightest we've seen it for years,
mainly propelled by 7% of the population who are fed up
with the lies of the big parties, and their in-bedness with either big
business

The Greens scare me. They would restrict human progress to save the
environment. Look at what happened in Canada: due to nonsense propaganda
from David Suzuki and his cronies (among other things), last December
Canada pulled out of the ITER project (US, Japan, EU, Russia, China, and
South Korea remain as members, with India looking to join). ITER is the
multibillion $ project to build the first overunity fusion reactor, to
begin construction in a few years. The lunatic environmentalists here
spit out all sorts of nonsense about the dangers of radioactive tritium
etc., when amounts produced are far less than the radioactivity made by a
coal burning plant, not to mention the lack of pollution. But you see,
their true reasons are that they want the government's funding to go
instead to their own stupid pet project like windmills and solar power.
Of course, you'd have to cover the whole planet with windmills to
generate enough power to sustain current demands. And add to this that
most of the world's population is in third world and developing countries
whos energy use will rise a couple of orders of magnitude to match that
of developed countries in the coming decades, and it's clear that unless
progress is restricted, as the green mother****ers would have it, their
renewable sources of energy will be grossly insufficient. Fusion is the
only energy source we know that sustain us in the long term (millenia in
fact). All other sources that can produce sufficient energy, including
fossil fuels and uranium, will run out. Yes, even fission, as the world
mineable uranium is only about 7Mtonnes.

On top of this you have extreme greens like the Greenpeace terrorists...

Lord Valve wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

but the real pest to the environment is man.

Do the world a favor and kill yourself.

Lord Valve
Environmentalist

Gee, I actualy scored a response from master valve.

Same typical old grunt with less intelligence than an
old orangutang.

Patrick Turner.

Prune wrote:

But the Green vote is the brightest we've seen it for years,
mainly propelled by 7% of the population who are fed up
with the lies of the big parties, and their in-bedness with either big
business

The Greens scare me. They would restrict human progress to save the
environment.

But much human "progress" is sheer vanity and folly, and
we look like changing the climate, and wrecking our own environment.

if the planet's people learnt to be minimalists, and learnt to negotiate,
learned to share and care, we'd all be better off.
The danger isn't communism, its now consumerism.
And even if we had free electricty and limitless cheap fuel and energy,
we'd just wreck the planet sooner; people who ain't worried by fuel bills
build
big stupid houses....

Look at what happened in Canada: due to nonsense propaganda
from David Suzuki and his cronies (among other things), last December
Canada pulled out of the ITER project (US, Japan, EU, Russia, China, and
South Korea remain as members, with India looking to join). ITER is the
multibillion $ project to build the first overunity fusion reactor, to
begin construction in a few years. The lunatic environmentalists here
spit out all sorts of nonsense about the dangers of radioactive tritium
etc., when amounts produced are far less than the radioactivity made by a
coal burning plant, not to mention the lack of pollution.

There is enormous interest in fusion, greens or no damn greens.
I think you'll find that Canada has its reasons....

But you see,
their true reasons are that they want the government's funding to go
instead to their own stupid pet project like windmills and solar power.

Windfarms, as they are called, are now quite viable, and make a lotta sense,
but now green minded folks are objecting to them being erected at
breathtakingly
great portions of the national scenery. Why not indeed make sure they only
get placed where they won't **** up the view!!!!


Of course, you'd have to cover the whole planet with windmills to
generate enough power to sustain current demands. And add to this that
most of the world's population is in third world and developing countries
whos energy use will rise a couple of orders of magnitude to match that
of developed countries in the coming decades, and it's clear that unless
progress is restricted, as the green mother****ers would have it, their
renewable sources of energy will be grossly insufficient.

There will be a lot of nuclear power in future, no doubt about it.

But what do you think about Three Mile Island, and Chernoble?

Trouble is, nuclear technology sometimes blows up, and thousands are going to
die
prematurely from Chernoble, and then there is the proliferation of nuclear
weapons,
urainium used in anti tank shells, the nuclear waste problem building up,
and so the greens challenge nuclear because problems with nuclear
have never fully been addressed.
Its amazing more nuclear accidents have not happened.

Fusion is the
only energy source we know that sustain us in the long term (millenia in
fact).

No such thing so far though.


All other sources that can produce sufficient energy, including
fossil fuels and uranium, will run out. Yes, even fission, as the world
mineable uranium is only about 7Mtonnes.

On top of this you have extreme greens like the Greenpeace terrorists...

I sympathise entirely with Greenpeace.

I wish them well.

Otherwise you have a world where every single action by
ordinary unthinking people or especially by big business or regimes seems to
cause the most
appalling pollution outcomes.

The Danube is an example of what can be achieved by a green attitude,
and the cleaning up of what had become a filthy drain running through europe.

Mankind is directly reponsible for the greatest and fastest extinction of
a whole range of species that the planet has ever known.

I don't care if you think I'm an arsole terrorist because I prefer to
make sure people pay the full price for the things they take from the
environment.
I don't like forested lands become bald grazing paddocks,
I don't like every patch of green ground turned into parking lot,
and I don't like the slow poisening of everything.
I expect the water I drink to be clean, not full of heavy metals
or organo chlorides from some ****wit Engineering down the road,
and I like the air to be clean, and I want the victims of asbestos use
compensated, and if you smoke, you patronise companies
delivering premature death the world over.
I also want all the people living in 3rd world countries to be given more
aid,
to assist them towards a fairer living standard. I'd like to see the
trillion dollar arms business to foreign countries totally banned.

If everyone was like me, the economy of the world would utterly
collapse as we know it, but so what, maybe there would be less mess,
less waste, and who gives a **** if there was no Coca Cola or McDonalds?

People would have time, and time to spend planting 10 trees instead of the
two
to replace the one they cut for their house.

One big other cost of the frenetic consumerism obsessed existance we are all
supposed to
think is so marvellous is that nobody has time to relate properly,
and the prescriptions for all sorts of pills are at an all time high,
like depression, so the more we have the sadder we get,
like the fat man only able to think about his next burger with the lot.

I recall seeing a newspaper article saying that in the US
the airlines are having to spend up big to make seats bigger,
and that planes sometimes barely can fly, since the load from
people has increased so much.

In a world peopled only by right wing redneck nature haters,
we'd all be a lot worse off. There would be no National Parks,
no old buildings, far greater inequality between rich and poor, much lower
quality of life, lower life expectancy, and lots of silly expensive memorials

to soldiers sent to fight in unjust wars.
Your son, brother, or sister who might have been born gay, and very
intelligent,
and able to be a doctor or lawyer or engineer, would be locked up,
or treated appallingly.

I could go on for another 50 pages, but I'd bore the group to death.

I might write a book one day about it. It'd be easy.

I'd also be easy to write a book titled
" Fifty reasons why I didn't get laid last night"

For anyone over 50, such a book would be a great laugh,
were it not for the pain of reading it.

Patrick Turner.

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:41:12 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:

Prune wrote:

A suitable case for treatment.


Brian McAllister

Sarasota, Florida

email bkm at oldtech dot net

Prune wrote in message ...
I hope you and the "rest" of the world keep remembering that about 50%
of us were Kerry & Nader supporters.

Some of you were Nader supporters? How embarassing.

Not so embarrassing that we're afraid to sign our name to our posts....
Roger H. Anderson

Not so embarrassing that we're afraid to sign our name to our
posts.... Roger H. Anderson

Borislav D. Trifonov
Vancouver, BC