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#1
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
What do you folks think about this?
https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 14/12/2020 6:15 pm, Paul Dorman wrote:
What do you folks think about this? https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! I wonder what the actual origins of the capsules are. geoff |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/13/2020 11:06 PM, geoff wrote:
On 14/12/2020 6:15 pm, Paul Dorman wrote: What do you folks think about this? https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! I wonder what the actual origins of the capsules are. Dunno, but I'd like to see some blind tests with a real U87, and see if people can tell the difference! |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/14/2020 3:13 AM, Paul Dorman wrote:
Â*Â* \I'd like to see some blind tests with a real U87, and see if people can tell the difference! That's what they all ask - does it sound like the real thing? Does your U87 sound like my U87? Probably not exactly. The important thing is whether it sounds good to you on your projects. There was a time when there were a few standard studio mics that clients expected you to have. I bought two, and still have them and use them. But I have a couple of other mics that "sound like" U87s that don't sound like either of my U87s, but they're useful in most places where I'd use a U87 and they're nothing to be ashamed of. I'm not familiar with this maker and I have no idea where his parts come from. I know a little more about Mic Parts they're very open about their designs and sources. If you're looking to save some money buy building a mic from a kit, check them out https://microphone-parts.com/ -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/14/2020 11:18 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 12/14/2020 3:13 AM, Paul Dorman wrote: Â*Â*Â* \I'd like to see some blind tests with a real U87, and see if people can tell the difference! That's what they all ask - does it sound like the real thing? Does your U87 sound like my U87? Probably not exactly. The important thing is whether it sounds good to you on your projects. There was a time when there were a few standard studio mics that clients expected you to have. I bought two, and still have them and use them. But I have a couple of other mics that "sound like" U87s that don't sound like either of my U87s, but they're useful in most places where I'd use a U87 and they're nothing to be ashamed of. I'm not familiar with this maker and I have no idea where his parts come from. I know a little more about Mic PartsÂ* they're very open about their designs and sources. If you're looking to save some money buy building a mic from a kit, check them out https://microphone-parts.com/ I'd like to see two blind tests: 1) 5 mics. 4 real U87s, and 1 U87 Clone. 2) 5 mics. 4 Clones, and 1 Real U87. I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially since there are variations even between the real U87s! |
#6
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
Paul wrote:
----------------- ** FOAD you vile lunatic |
#7
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
I'd like to see two blind tests:
1) 5 mics. 4 real U87s, and 1 U87 Clone. 2) 5 mics. 4 Clones, and 1 Real U87. I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially since there are variations even between the real U87s! I once EQed an RE20 to sound like a U 87 for my voice. For that one incident, the difference was very difficult to tell. That, by no means, indicates the any similarities. We (Louis Mills, Mark Patey and I) could tell the difference between a U87 i and a U 87ai. I guess, what I'm thinking here is that, depending on your tests, you might be convinced of anything. You'd have to run exhaustive tests on music, room (pattern response), preamp loading, and probably a few things I've forgotten to mention here to get any solid data. Would I trust your findings? Probably not. |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
Paul Dorman wrote:
I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially since there are variations even between the real U87s! U87s are pretty consistent. There have been production changes over the years, but even comparing the old style with the battery to the new style, I don't hear big differences. Very much unlike the U47, where no two of them sound anything like one another. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#9
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
In article ,
Paul Dorman wrote: What do you folks think about this? https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 6:37:25 AM UTC-8, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul Dorman wrote: What do you folks think about this? https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." If everything else in the kit is true to the original, get a Neumann K87 capsule for less than $1K and put the Dachman capsule in inventory. Then do the blindfold test. ~ Roy W. Rising "If you notice the *sound*, it's wrong!" |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
Roy W. Rising wrote:
On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 6:37:25 AM UTC-8, Scott Dorsey wrote: In article , Paul Dorman wrote: What do you folks think about this? https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others. If everything else in the kit is true to the original, get a Neumann K87 capsule for less than $1K and put the Dachman capsule in inventory. Then do the blindfold test. Unfortunately there are two critical things that cannot be true to the original. First is the shape of the grille, which actually makes quite a difference in the sound. You can copy the material, but you can't copy the shape because it is trademarked and Neumann is very aggressive about legal action. So all the clones have slightly different grille shapes. The degree to which this changes the sound is something that nobody has systematically tested. The second is the diaphragm tensioning... the method Neumann uses today is a secret. The method all the people copying Neumann capsules use is one that Neumann abandoned some time in the sixties... and it can work well only if very skilled people are doing the work very carefully. The KM53 was finally discontinued when the woman who could hand-tension those capsules retired and they couldn't do it properly anymore. Today, Neumann uses automated tensioning methods which among other things means a consistently good null in figure-8 mode. Nobody outside Neumann has seen it in operation and it has not yet been copied. (Most of the other big companies also use automated systems but the Neumann method, whatever it is, is clearly different than the ones Shure, A-T, and AKG are using.) It's easy to make U87-style microphones, but it's hard to make them well and I am not sure it's possible to make them exactly like Neumann. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#12
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
Per Mike's and Scott's comments, I get really tired of seeing knock offs.
"Whoo Hooo! Get a Neumann clone for a fraction of the price!!!!!!" Stick with your SM58 until you can afford a real one. Then hope you actually know how to use it. I recall a conversation with a radio production guy many years ago who had a U 87 i. "Horrible on acoustic guitar", he said. I asked where he put the mic. "Right in front of the sound hole, OF COURSE! It was waay boomy. I don't know why people think they're so great." ::sigh:: Regards, Ty Ford |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 05:51:01 -0800 (PST), Ty Ford
wrote: Per Mike's and Scott's comments, I get really tired of seeing knock offs. "Whoo Hooo! Get a Neumann clone for a fraction of the price!!!!!!" Stick with your SM58 until you can afford a real one. Then hope you actually know how to use it. I recall a conversation with a radio production guy many years ago who had a U 87 i. "Horrible on acoustic guitar", he said. I asked where he put the mic. "Right in front of the sound hole, OF COURSE! It was waay boomy. I don't know why people think they're so great." ::sigh:: Regards, Ty Ford When I record acoustic guitar, I like to record the whole guitar, not the sound hole, not the 12th fret, not the upper bout. About six feet in front is my favoured location in my nicely treated room. Not only is the guitar properly balanced, but only a smidge of EQ is needed to kill the slight residue of proximity bass lift. d |
#14
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/20/2020 8:26 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Roy W. Rising wrote: On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 6:37:25 AM UTC-8, Scott Dorsey wrote: In article , Paul Dorman wrote: What do you folks think about this? https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others. If everything else in the kit is true to the original, get a Neumann K87 capsule for less than $1K and put the Dachman capsule in inventory. Then do the blindfold test. Unfortunately there are two critical things that cannot be true to the original. First is the shape of the grille, which actually makes quite a difference in the sound. You can copy the material, but you can't copy the shape because it is trademarked and Neumann is very aggressive about legal action. So all the clones have slightly different grille shapes. The degree to which this changes the sound is something that nobody has systematically tested. The second is the diaphragm tensioning... the method Neumann uses today is a secret. The method all the people copying Neumann capsules use is one that Neumann abandoned some time in the sixties... and it can work well only if very skilled people are doing the work very carefully. The KM53 was finally discontinued when the woman who could hand-tension those capsules retired and they couldn't do it properly anymore. Today, Neumann uses automated tensioning methods which among other things means a consistently good null in figure-8 mode. Nobody outside Neumann has seen it in operation and it has not yet been copied. (Most of the other big companies also use automated systems but the Neumann method, whatever it is, is clearly different than the ones Shure, A-T, and AKG are using.) It's easy to make U87-style microphones, but it's hard to make them well and I am not sure it's possible to make them exactly like Neumann. If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a "How It's Made" video on the U87? This video is WAY too clean to be from the 60's! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it. |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 29/12/2020 13:54, Paul Dorman wrote:
If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a "How It's Made" video on the U87? This video is WAY too clean to be from the 60's! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it. The "secret ingredients" are not even hinted at in the video. How thick and how tense is the plastic sheet as delivered to the assembler, and how thick is the gold plating? What type of plastic is used? Just a couple of the variables I can see that will make a massive difference to the end result. The torque on the screws we saw being fastened, by the way, won't make a massive difference to the consistency of the microphone performance as long as they are tight enough, that is set by the consistency between samples of the tension given to it by the ring it is mounted on during the plating process, which in turn is governed by the heat treatment at the initial mounting and plating stages. All the mounting ring you see being fastened does is to lock that initial tension in place. All the stuff you see is of minor importance compared to what they do not show you. Don't forget that video was passed by the legal department as not disclosing any commercially sensitive information. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#16
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
Paul Dorman wrote:
If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a "How It's Made" video on the U87? This video is WAY too clean to be from the 60's! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY Because that video doesn't show anything important. And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it. There are two things they will not show you: 1. How the backplate is made optically flat and parallel to the diaphragm. 2. How the diaphragm is tensioned. The trampoline method that all the Chinese factories are using is the method that Neumann used back in the fifties, and it can be done well with very skilled people. A torque wrench tells you something but it doesn't tell you flatness, it only tells you tension at a few points. If you combine this with interferometry you can make a capsule with a pretty good null. It's not easy or cheap and you'll go through a lot of material. The method Neumann is currently using is automated and results in a ring with the diaphragm evenly tensioned across it and fixed into place. You can tour the Neumann plant but they won't let you look into the room where that takes place. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#17
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/14/2020 7:37 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul Dorman wrote: What do you folks think about this? https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others. Can you recommend a U87 clone? Either in kit form, or fully assembled? |
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