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Wylie Williams
 
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Default Loudspeaker break-in

I know that many audiophiles believe that speakers need a period of break-in
to sound their best, while others disagree.

This post is a request for those who believe in speaker break-in to provide
advice, and it is also request that those who disagree allow those of us
they believe to be mistaken to continue in the error of our ways without
comment.

I am breaking in a pair of Gallo Reference III speakers in my garage on 24
hour/day FM music, which I plan to stop at 120 hours. I do this on the
advice of Gallo, and am told by Gallo that more power the better, as they
personally believe in break-in, and several reports they have received say
that for these speakers there is a definite break-in point that must be
reached for best quality. They further recommend using high power for best
results. My problem is that once I bring these into my living room I will
not be able to give them high power very often, as I have a wife who will be
disturbed by the noise. I wish to find the best way to continue the break-in
these speakers a few hours at a time.

While I have hard the general statement that break-in if desirable, I
haven't seen anything specific onwhat to play and how loud. It would be
easy to put a CD on repeat on occasion when we go out. I wonder if anyone
has experience with the best signals to play through speakers for break in.
Music? What sort? Test CDs? Which CDs? Which tracks?

Wylie Williams
Saint Louis Missouri

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Pooh Bear
 
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Wylie Williams wrote:

I know that many audiophiles believe that speakers need a period of break-in
to sound their best, while others disagree.

This post is a request for those who believe in speaker break-in to provide
advice, and it is also request that those who disagree allow those of us
they believe to be mistaken to continue in the error of our ways without
comment.


Many manufacturers of 'pro-audio' speakers specify parameters after a 'break-in'
period.

Before 'break-in' the resonant frequency will typically be higher than datasheet
values.

E.g.

"Notes
3. Thiele - Small Parameters follow a 400 Watt preconditioning period."


http://www.precisiondevices.co.uk/as...ds/super/9.pdf


Graham
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Place the speakers face to face, especially the wofers, and switch one of
the feed wires so they are now out of phase. This should cancel greatly
the total sound level while not changing the excursion of the cones. How
will you know if it makes any difference when all is done?


I know that many audiophiles believe that speakers need a period of break-in
to sound their best, while others disagree.

This post is a request for those who believe in speaker break-in to provide
advice, and it is also request that those who disagree allow those of us
they believe to be mistaken to continue in the error of our ways without
comment.

I am breaking in a pair of Gallo Reference III speakers in my garage on 24
hour/day FM music, which I plan to stop at 120 hours. I do this on the
advice of Gallo, and am told by Gallo that more power the better, as they
personally believe in break-in, and several reports they have received say
that for these speakers there is a definite break-in point that must be
reached for best quality. They further recommend using high power for best
results. My problem is that once I bring these into my living room I will
not be able to give them high power very often, as I have a wife who will be
disturbed by the noise. I wish to find the best way to continue the break-in
these speakers a few hours at a time.

While I have hard the general statement that break-in if desirable, I
haven't seen anything specific onwhat to play and how loud. It would be
easy to put a CD on repeat on occasion when we go out. I wonder if anyone
has experience with the best signals to play through speakers for break in.
Music? What sort? Test CDs? Which CDs? Which tracks?

Wylie Williams
Saint Louis Missouri

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Wylie Williams
 
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Thanks for your reply. In answer to your question - This is a faith based
initiative. I broke in many speakers when I had a stereo storefront. On a
few speakers, especially smaller bookshelf speakers with rubber-surround
woofers the change was dramatic. From this I make the assumption that all
speakers probably benefit to some degree. And since the only cost is a
little time, I always break in my speakers. his particular speaker is the
best I've ever had and I want to get the best from it. Having the Gallo
national sales manager tell me that they believe in break-in and that the
initial field reports are that break-in is important for these speakers
confirms me in my desire to do a good job.

I appreciate your suggestion, but I am still wanting to go a bit further
that just playing some unspecified music for an unspecified time. Given the
number of energetic audiophiles I thought maybe someone had done some
experimentation and would share the results..

Wylie Williams


wrote in message ...
Place the speakers face to face, especially the wofers, and switch one of
the feed wires so they are now out of phase. This should cancel greatly
the total sound level while not changing the excursion of the cones. How
will you know if it makes any difference when all is done?


I know that many audiophiles believe that speakers need a period of

break-in
to sound their best, while others disagree.

This post is a request for those who believe in speaker break-in to

provide
advice, and it is also request that those who disagree allow those of us
they believe to be mistaken to continue in the error of our ways without
comment.

I am breaking in a pair of Gallo Reference III speakers in my garage on

24
hour/day FM music, which I plan to stop at 120 hours. I do this on the
advice of Gallo, and am told by Gallo that more power the better, as they
personally believe in break-in, and several reports they have received

say
that for these speakers there is a definite break-in point that must be
reached for best quality. They further recommend using high power for

best
results. My problem is that once I bring these into my living room I will
not be able to give them high power very often, as I have a wife who will

be
disturbed by the noise. I wish to find the best way to continue the

break-in
these speakers a few hours at a time.

While I have hard the general statement that break-in if desirable, I
haven't seen anything specific onwhat to play and how loud. It would be
easy to put a CD on repeat on occasion when we go out. I wonder if anyone
has experience with the best signals to play through speakers for break

in.
Music? What sort? Test CDs? Which CDs? Which tracks?

Wylie Williams
Saint Louis Missouri




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Lawrence
 
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"Wylie Williams" wrote in
:

While I have hard the general statement that break-in if desirable, I
haven't seen anything specific onwhat to play and how loud. It would
be easy to put a CD on repeat on occasion when we go out. I wonder if
anyone has experience with the best signals to play through speakers
for break in. Music? What sort? Test CDs? Which CDs? Which tracks?

Wylie Williams
Saint Louis Missouri


I have a CD that play different frequencies, I put it on repeat mode. The
CD cost a lot of money but it claim that by playing this CD through your
new speakers, it is reduce the break-in time by 5 folds!

I think it make sense since normal music (either from a FM station or CD)
can only play a certain range of frequencies.

Don't ask me how much the CD cost, because I got it from my local Hi-Fi
store, the owner has that. But if you want to play with that, I can mail
you one of this!

Lawrence
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Wylie Williams
 
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote My only concern is - how
will I know when they have stopped breaking in, and started wearing out? You
can't reasonably have one without the other.

I haven't ever had a speaker wear out, and I don't worry about them
wearing out in home audio use. As I have done speaker repair for a few
years I have repaired many with age-deteriorated foam and I have also
replaced 20 year old capacitors on the general principle that they might be
deteriorated and new ones usually sound better. And I have seen speakers
virtually beat to death by musicians, DJs, and fans of very loud rock and/or
rap, but I don't anticipate that anything I do will cause speaker failure.
I just want to find out if anyone has made a serious study of the best
signal source to break in speakers, and ask them to share their findings
with me.

Wylie Williams



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Gary Vander Schel
 
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"Wylie Williams" wrote in message
...
I know that many audiophiles believe that speakers need a period of
break-in
to sound their best, while others disagree.

This post is a request for those who believe in speaker break-in to
provide
advice, and it is also request that those who disagree allow those of us
they believe to be mistaken to continue in the error of our ways without
comment.

I am breaking in a pair of Gallo Reference III speakers in my garage on 24
hour/day FM music, which I plan to stop at 120 hours. I do this on the
advice of Gallo, and am told by Gallo that more power the better, as they
personally believe in break-in, and several reports they have received say
that for these speakers there is a definite break-in point that must be
reached for best quality. They further recommend using high power for
best
results. My problem is that once I bring these into my living room I will
not be able to give them high power very often, as I have a wife who will
be
disturbed by the noise. I wish to find the best way to continue the
break-in
these speakers a few hours at a time.

While I have hard the general statement that break-in if desirable, I
haven't seen anything specific onwhat to play and how loud. It would be
easy to put a CD on repeat on occasion when we go out. I wonder if anyone
has experience with the best signals to play through speakers for break
in.
Music? What sort? Test CDs? Which CDs? Which tracks?

Wylie Williams
Saint Louis Missouri


Stereophile's Test CD 3, track 20. You may want to keep your amplifier's
output below clipping levels...
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L David Matheny
 
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ...
snip
My only concern is - how will I know when they have stopped
breaking in, and started wearing out? You can't reasonably have
one without the other.....................

It's all the same. You're just trying to move into the long (we hope)
linear part of the wearing-out curve.

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Stewart Pinkerton
 
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On 25 Sep 2004 20:54:32 GMT, "Wylie Williams"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote My only concern is - how
will I know when they have stopped breaking in, and started wearing out? You
can't reasonably have one without the other.

I haven't ever had a speaker wear out, and I don't worry about them
wearing out in home audio use. As I have done speaker repair for a few
years I have repaired many with age-deteriorated foam and I have also
replaced 20 year old capacitors on the general principle that they might be
deteriorated and new ones usually sound better. And I have seen speakers
virtually beat to death by musicians, DJs, and fans of very loud rock and/or
rap, but I don't anticipate that anything I do will cause speaker failure.
I just want to find out if anyone has made a serious study of the best
signal source to break in speakers, and ask them to share their findings
with me.


Tom Nousaine has made a considerable study of this phenomenon, and of
course Dick Pierce is an extremely experienced drive unit *designer*.
Their researches appear to indicate very clearly that there is no such
thing as break-in past the first few seconds. Since you yourself
acknowledge that you have not observed drivers wearing out, how could
they possibly 'break in'?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering


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Wylie Williams
 
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote
Since you yourself
acknowledge that you have not observed drivers wearing out, how could
they possibly 'break in'?


Pardon me for lack of clarity. Let me begin by repeating myself then
elaborating on what I meant to say but apparently failed to say clearly:
And I have seen speakers virtually beat to death by musicians, DJs, and

fans of very loud rock and/or
rap, but I don't anticipate that anything I do will cause speaker failure


By referring to seeing speakers "beat to death" I refer to the weakening,
splitting, tearing, and eventual malfunction of cones, surrounds, and
spiders that I have seen after extended hard use, as well as capacitors
exploded and voice coil formers melted . I would consider this to be
wearing out prematurely because of abuse, but based on my personal history I
don't believe any use I would make of a speaker is likely to wear it out
within my anticipated period of use.

Wylie Williams

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Stewart Pinkerton
 
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On 26 Sep 2004 14:51:46 GMT, "L David Matheny"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ...
snip
My only concern is - how will I know when they have stopped
breaking in, and started wearing out? You can't reasonably have
one without the other.....................

It's all the same. You're just trying to move into the long (we hope)
linear part of the wearing-out curve.


Perhaps so. But, given that people who've investigated this
possibility, such as Tom Nousaine and the redoubtable Dick Pierce,
seem to regard 'break-in' as a non-event after the first couple of
*seconds*, and given others (such as the OP himself) who claim never
to have observed 'wear out', do we have any real*evidence* that
break-in really exists? If not, then surely a search for 'the best
break-in CD' is as pointless as arguing which shade of green is best
for painting the edges of CDs?

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #13   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
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On 26 Sep 2004 17:17:46 GMT, "Wylie Williams"
wrote:

By referring to seeing speakers "beat to death" I refer to the weakening,
splitting, tearing, and eventual malfunction of cones, surrounds, and
spiders that I have seen after extended hard use, as well as capacitors
exploded and voice coil formers melted . I would consider this to be
wearing out prematurely because of abuse, but based on my personal history I
don't believe any use I would make of a speaker is likely to wear it out
within my anticipated period of use.


So, you agree that if 'wear out' isn't a normal phenomenon, then
'break in' is equally unlikely?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
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Nousaine
 
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Stewart Pinkerton wrote:



On 26 Sep 2004 14:51:46 GMT, "L David Matheny"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message

...
snip
My only concern is - how will I know when they have stopped
breaking in, and started wearing out? You can't reasonably have
one without the other.....................

It's all the same. You're just trying to move into the long (we hope)
linear part of the wearing-out curve.


Perhaps so. But, given that people who've investigated this
possibility, such as Tom Nousaine and the redoubtable Dick Pierce,
seem to regard 'break-in' as a non-event after the first couple of
*seconds*, and given others (such as the OP himself) who claim never
to have observed 'wear out', do we have any real*evidence* that
break-in really exists? If not, then surely a search for 'the best
break-in CD' is as pointless as arguing which shade of green is best
for painting the edges of CDs?

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering


I have conducted several experiments in break-in covering periods as long as
150 hours. What happens is that you can measure a fall in system or driver
resonance by several percent along with an increse in compliance of a like
amount immediately following an extended break-in period. However if you allow
the driver/system to rest for several hours you'll find that the unit returns
to its 'fresh' values.

Further if you model either set of parameters you'll wind up at the same
enclosure requirements for either condition (a lowered Fs and an increase in
compliance will be off-setting.)

The "most" you can say about extended break-in is that at most a system/driver
may "warm-up" but even then its sound will not change.

On the other hand, the only negative thing about 'warm-up' is that it can be
dangerous in that you can damage the speaker by putting too much currrent into
the voice coil for an extended period and/or rip suspension components with too
much power.

Noise signals are by far the most dangerous. I was involved in a trial testing
the EIA 426B power handing standards and found it was possible to actually melt
a plastic cone using their long term noise signal.

If one is to try-nature with break-in I'd strongly recommend against using
noise (as is often suggested) and especially against using the off-polarity
test using a pair of systems placed face-to-face out of polarity to reduce the
ambient noise of break-in with a noise signal. It's just too darn dangerous;
full or partial band signal with equal amplitude over the entire bandwith,
unless you 'like' the smell of softening voice coil glue.

At DLC Design where they use DUMAX to test linearity of loudspeakers they
sometimes need a short break-in period to allow a speaker that has been stored
on its back to restore its natural rest position .... and this takes less than
a minute.

What's the "safest" (as in using a condom for contraception even if you've had
a vasectomy) break-in signal? The most comfortable condition is a woofer driven
with a sine wave near its resonant frequency in free-air with enough power to
allow excursion to attain perhaps half to 2/3 stroke for a relatively short
period while you remain in attendance.

But even so if there really were an important "break-in" period wouldn't your
speakers simply just break-selfs-in during normal use? The only time this might
be an important issue is when the break-in period might exceed the
product-return time limit.

I once tested a product where the owner manual suggested that the speaker would
'improve' over 150 hours of use. I called a local dealer and asked what the
store return policy was. As it turned out that was 7-calendar days (meaning
that a speaker purchased on Monday had until Saturday to get returned but if
you bought on Tuesday you had a full week) so that meant that in order to
'reach' the speaker's full potential a new owner would have to use/break-in the
product for 6.25 days non-stop to find out if they 'sounded' as good as he was
lead to believe..

This condition is but one of the real reasons that break-in has become an audio
urban legend. I understand both the conditions where this might be important.
First it tends to reduce buyers remorse; but it also tends to limit customer
choice.
  #15   Report Post  
Robert C. Lang
 
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Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message ...
My only concern is - how will I know when they have stopped

breaking
in, and started wearing out? You can't reasonably have one without the
other.....................


Does it necessarily follow that a period of "break-in" leads directly
into an immediate period of decline? Can it be that the break-in
period is followed by a lengthy "plateau" period in which performance
stays within minimum specification or peak efficiency before
noticeably or measurably beginning to wear out?

I'm not talking about just speakers, but any product that has moving
parts (but also electronics as well). If speaker materials do change
their behavior maybe it's like breaking in a pair of shoes; the first
minutes, or maybe even the first hours (hopefully not) the shoe will
quickly feel better as it "loosens up" and conforms to your
feet(hopefully not the other way around, but maybe your feet do a
little conforming also.) After the "break in" process the shoe has a
"constant" feel about it for months or years until they begin to
noticeably wear and start to feel uncomfortable again. Baseball gloves
are clearly that way. They can take a season to loosen up, and then
they stay seemingly constant for years. Or the time when we had some
doors hung. They did not swing right, they were a little stiff, even
though they were hung properly.
The craftsman assured us that in a few days, after breaking in (use)
they would feel fine. He was right; after a little use the doors began
to open and close (swing) as expected and have done so for years.

There are other examples such as my motorcycle. The
clutch/transmission system was stiff when first purchased. Shifting
had to be done very deliberately and was audibly clunky. But in a few
days or weeks, as cautioned by experienced riders, shifting reached an
optimum tension level, became smoother, more quite and stayed that way
for many years before finally beginning to wear out (became loose and
unreliable). Many veteran BMW riders (not me) don't consider their
engines (not transmissions) fully broken in until after 40,000 miles.

I have never formed an opinion on speaker break in because whether it
exists or not, the listener, it would appear, by taking the time to
listen over a few days or weeks, can make a more accurate, sensible
decision with respect to their tastes. Hopefully they can return the
speakers for a complete refund if they don't work out. (This is the
only way I buy speakers or linestages). If it takes a few days or
weeks for the consumer to reach a more informed decision assisted by a
lengthy in-home audition, which may be fueled by beliefs about speaker
break-in, the more power to them.

Resources for researching speaker break-in, if they do exist, should
probably be redirected for more worth while pursuits.

Robert C. Lang


  #16   Report Post  
Chelvam
 
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"Nousaine" wrote in message
...

snip..snip..

I have conducted several experiments in break-in covering periods as long

as
150 hours. What happens is that you can measure a fall in system or driver
resonance by several percent along with an increse in compliance of a like
amount immediately following an extended break-in period. However if you

allow
the driver/system to rest for several hours you'll find that the unit

returns
to its 'fresh' values.


How about crossover? Do they need break-in?


..... As it turned out that was 7-calendar days (meaning
that a speaker purchased on Monday had until Saturday to get returned but

if
you bought on Tuesday you had a full week) so that meant that in order to
'reach' the speaker's full potential a new owner would have to

use/break-in the
product for 6.25 days non-stop to find out if they 'sounded' as good as he

was
lead to believe..


Most decent High End stores give about 3 months to return a speaker.

cheers.

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"Resources for researching speaker break-in, if they do exist, should
probably be redirected for more worth while pursuits."

This is reasonable, except we don't want such a laid back view to obscure
the use such claims are put to in marketing/publishing for commercial
intrest. The current benchmark is that breakin is at best a matter of a
very short time and of little consequence for most of the audio gear
purchased,ie. excludes wire, amps, signal sources, etc. as such. We don't
want this claim to be added to the stew of other unsupported claims so as
to suggest the whole should ever be a concern in making purchases and
enjoying the music. We want to demystify the whole scene that has grown
up to the detriment of audio. and to the support of paranormal belief
systems.
  #18   Report Post  
B&D
 
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I find the speaker "break in" vaguely reminiscent of the old wear-out
"bathtub" curves - where there is a period of early failure, followed by a
period of constant failure rate (hopefully low) and then an accelerating
failure rate as the components themselves wear out.

DO tubes "break in" - I kinow they need to warm up some to perform to their
peak - but is there a period of breakin?
  #20   Report Post  
Nousaine
 
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(Robert C. Lang) wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message
...
My only concern is - how will I know when they have stopped

breaking
in, and started wearing out? You can't reasonably have one without the
other.....................


Does it necessarily follow that a period of "break-in" leads directly
into an immediate period of decline? Can it be that the break-in
period is followed by a lengthy "plateau" period in which performance
stays within minimum specification or peak efficiency before
noticeably or measurably beginning to wear out?


Why would that be implied? Do drag racers get faster with use? Do race cars
have to be broken-in?

I'm not talking about just speakers, but any product that has moving
parts (but also electronics as well). If speaker materials do change
their behavior maybe it's like breaking in a pair of shoes; the first
minutes, or maybe even the first hours (hopefully not) the shoe will
quickly feel better as it "loosens up" and conforms to your
feet(hopefully not the other way around, but maybe your feet do a
little conforming also.) After the "break in" process the shoe has a
"constant" feel about it for months or years until they begin to
noticeably wear and start to feel uncomfortable again.


Sure; but that example has 'touching' moving parts. Your feet and body fluids
are in direct contact plus there is plenty of direct pressure from external
forces.

I currently own 2 pair of Penny Loafers that are now 20 years old. Both have
had several set of soles/heels over the years. However I seldom wear them these
days and they both feel now feel "strange" when I do even though each pair was
well-broken-in and fully comfortable when rotated out of service. Sitting in my
closet didn't cause the shoes to change .... my feel and my feet are the only
change agents.

Baseball gloves
are clearly that way. They can take a season to loosen up, and then
they stay seemingly constant for years.


This is pure conjecture. My glove never took a season to "loosen up" it began
loosening from the first day and never stopped. Just because I only played
baseball/softball in the summer months it may have psychological "seemed like
there was a lengthy full performance period."

Here's the counter example. How many times have you been ready to resume play
in the spring only to discover that your trusty glove became 'worn-out' over
the winter. Here's another good example; who has NOT found his old glove from a
past glorious period of baseball greatness and found it has has "worn-out"
sitting the closet?


Or the time when we had some
doors hung. They did not swing right, they were a little stiff, even
though they were hung properly.


A drop of oil and/or a sag of the hinges is a pretty good cure. But that's not
'breakin-in" If they were stiff when hung they weren't "properly" hung.

The craftsman assured us that in a few days, after breaking in (use)
they would feel fine. He was right; after a little use the doors began
to open and close (swing) as expected and have done so for years.


I'm not sure who was hanging your doors but if they were 'stiff' in the
beginning they should have been made right.


There are other examples such as my motorcycle. The
clutch/transmission system was stiff when first purchased. Shifting
had to be done very deliberately and was audibly clunky. But in a few
days or weeks, as cautioned by experienced riders, shifting reached an
optimum tension level, became smoother, more quite and stayed that way
for many years before finally beginning to wear out (became loose and
unreliable). Many veteran BMW riders (not me) don't consider their
engines (not transmissions) fully broken in until after 40,000 miles.



First of all I think that 'getting used' to the action may apply to much of
this. But, even so you are, like the door example, talking about systems with
moving parts that "touch" each other. Any loudspeaker with touching parts is
broken. There is NO wearing in of moving parts in contact. It is true that
elastic parts (spider, surround) may change with wear but simple experiments
have shown that this type of "wear" doesn't occur with short periods of use.

I have never formed an opinion on speaker break in because whether it
exists or not, the listener, it would appear, by taking the time to
listen over a few days or weeks, can make a more accurate, sensible
decision with respect to their tastes.



Now you are talking about "listener" acclaimitization or perhaps training but
NOT speaker break-in.

Hopefully they can return the
speakers for a complete refund if they don't work out. (This is the
only way I buy speakers or linestages). If it takes a few days or
weeks for the consumer to reach a more informed decision assisted by a
lengthy in-home audition, which may be fueled by beliefs about speaker
break-in, the more power to them.

Resources for researching speaker break-in, if they do exist, should
probably be redirected for more worth while pursuits.

Robert C. Lang


This effect has been investigated. It's an urban legend.


  #21   Report Post  
Dersu
 
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"Wylie Williams" wrote in message
...

I know that many audiophiles believe that speakers need a period of
break-in
to sound their best, while others disagree.


I am surprised that anyone who reads an audio.hign-end newsgroup doesn't
know that all quality speakers MUST be carefully broken in by playing the
Solti recording of Mahler's "Resurrection" Symphony (Decca 410 202-2) at
maximum volume late at night whilst consuming a half bottle (or so) of a
good vintage port or a slightly lesser quantity of a fine single malt
scotch. For ultimate speaker performance and longevity real purists will
likely wish to continue the break in with the Von Karajan, Verdi Requiem (DG
415091-2), Giulini, Bruckner 8th (DG 415 124-2) and Mravinski, Tchaikovsky
Symphony 4 (DG 419 745-2) on successive nights. At the end of this period
your speakers will be properly broken in and able to handle anything you
care to play through them to your complete satisfaction. If not, you bought
the wrong speakers and had better go shopping again!

D.
  #22   Report Post  
Dersu
 
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"Chelvam" wrote in message
...

How about crossover? Do they need break-in?


Now you have got me worried! Should I have broken in my new cables? They are
a kind of copper wire and they are a bit longer than the old ones, can
anyone tell me if I'm missing out on that final ounce of performance?

D.
  #23   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
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On 28 Sep 2004 00:46:02 GMT, B&D wrote:

I find the speaker "break in" vaguely reminiscent of the old wear-out
"bathtub" curves - where there is a period of early failure, followed by a
period of constant failure rate (hopefully low) and then an accelerating
failure rate as the components themselves wear out.


Except that this isn't what actually happens, except perhaps for foam
surrounds, and that's just chemical degradation, not actual wear. All
the available evidence suggests that driver 'break-in' occurs in the
first few seconds, if at all.

DO tubes "break in" - I kinow they need to warm up some to perform to their
peak - but is there a period of breakin?


Actually no, tubes begin to wear out from the first time they're
switched on. The only question is - how much do you allow them to
degrade before changing them? Doesn't seem like a great recipe for
top-class sound to me..................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #24   Report Post  
Chelvam
 
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"Nousaine" wrote in

snip.....

For full price refund? Or does that mean exchange?


Err..your are right. always been exchange.
Btw, you missed my earlier question. Do crossover need break-in?

cheers

  #26   Report Post  
Robert C. Lang
 
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wrote in message ...
"Resources for researching speaker break-in, if they do exist, should
probably be redirected for more worth while pursuits."

This is reasonable, except we don't want such a laid back view to obscure
the use such claims are put to in marketing/publishing for commercial
intrest. The current benchmark is that breakin is at best a matter of a
very short time and of little consequence for most of the audio gear
purchased,ie. excludes wire, amps, signal sources, etc. as such. We don't
want this claim to be added to the stew of other unsupported claims so as
to suggest the whole should ever be a concern in making purchases and
enjoying the music. We want to demystify the whole scene that has grown
up to the detriment of audio. and to the support of paranormal belief
systems.



Would I like to know to an absolute certainty whether speaker break-in
is myth or truth or whether it applies to some speaker designs and not
others? Absolutely! I'm only saying that, for me personally, there are
higher audio priorities. I'm also saying that I have not seen any
compelling arguments that there are a whole lot of victims due to
manufacturers, dealers, reviewers, and other consumers all saying that
some speakers need to be broken in. I have only seen vague
illustrations as to how consumers may be victimized about break in
claims. Besides, speaker break in may be a true phenomenon. A lot of
things that move or flex "break in". The key is whether or not it is
audible. And if it is audible can it be measured. I have seen
seemingly credible, but inclusive (too me) presentations in this group
and elsewhere on both sides. Of course, it is highly unlikely that I
have seen even most of the presentations on this subject.

But more important than whether there is proof one way or the other, I
see this break in issue as built in protection for consumers who can
legitimately demand to hold off their final purchase decisions on
loudspeakers until they have an opportunity to try them out at home.
This is especially true since both manufacturers and dealers both
often subscribe to the need for break in. I would certainly never buy
a speaker (or a line stage) without a home trial. Most (all) dealers I
know completely understand that. The consumer may find that the
speakers do sound lousy at home, but may be due to room and associated
equipment issues or other issues even those related to break in. It
doesn't matter as long as we can take the opportunity to get a home
trial.

Besides, I don't see many (or any that I know, even Joe Six Pack)
consumers buying speakers that they are from the onset sonically
displeased with in the dealers show room. The dealers' claim is
usually "if you think you like these speakers now just wait until you
break them in a little". I mean if a consumer buys a speaker that they
don't particularly like or just likes a little in the dealers show
room banking on that they will love the speaker after break in, can
you really protect that person with definitive data on break in
phenomena?

I say let's use the manufacturers and dealers claims that speakers
require break in to our advantage.
  #27   Report Post  
Nousaine
 
Posts: n/a
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(Robert C. Lang) wrote:
wrote in message ...
"Resources for researching speaker break-in, if they do exist, should
probably be redirected for more worth while pursuits."

This is reasonable, except we don't want such a laid back view to obscure
the use such claims are put to in marketing/publishing for commercial
intrest. The current benchmark is that breakin is at best a matter of a
very short time and of little consequence for most of the audio gear
purchased,ie. excludes wire, amps, signal sources, etc. as such. We don't
want this claim to be added to the stew of other unsupported claims so as
to suggest the whole should ever be a concern in making purchases and
enjoying the music. We want to demystify the whole scene that has grown
up to the detriment of audio. and to the support of paranormal belief
systems.



Would I like to know to an absolute certainty whether speaker break-in
is myth or truth or whether it applies to some speaker designs and not
others? Absolutely! I'm only saying that, for me personally, there are
higher audio priorities.


As I've said before I have personally investigated the phenomenon. "Break-in"
is an urban legend.

I'm also saying that I have not seen any
compelling arguments that there are a whole lot of victims due to
manufacturers, dealers, reviewers, and other consumers all saying that
some speakers need to be broken in. I have only seen vague
illustrations as to how consumers may be victimized about break in
claims.


I've described a system where the manufacturer in the owner's manual claims
that the speaker will become progressively better sounding over its first 150
hours of use. I've also asked a local retailer what the return-privileges might
be. The reply was 7-calendar days. This means that a customer would have to
"listen to" the speaker for 21 hours a day for the full 7-days to get the
full-sonic impact of the product.

IMO this just means that the 150-hour break-in period is simply a merchandising
tool to prevent buyer's remorse. Not that this would make any 'real'
difference; but the idea is just designed to make sure that the customer has a
chance to acclaimitize himself to the possibility that the speaker will not
sound exactly the same as it did in the showroom.


Besides, speaker break in may be a true phenomenon. A lot of
things that move or flex "break in". The key is whether or not it is
audible. And if it is audible can it be measured.


The effects of testing a "warm" speaker are quite measureable. The change in
sound quality have never been confirmed.

I have seen
seemingly credible, but inclusive (too me) presentations in this group
and elsewhere on both sides.


I've seen no credible evidence on the side of "break-in." What I have seen is
lots of talk but no experimental results.

Of course, it is highly unlikely that I
have seen even most of the presentations on this subject.

But more important than whether there is proof one way or the other, I
see this break in issue as built in protection for consumers who can
legitimately demand to hold off their final purchase decisions on
loudspeakers until they have an opportunity to try them out at home.


I've had a sales representative explain to me that his customers get to listen
to "broken-in" units in his listening room at the store. But even so, with a
150 hour break-in period, it's unlikely that anybody would be able avail
himself of the return priviledge unless he was smart enough to not buy the
break-in legend.

This is especially true since both manufacturers and dealers both
often subscribe to the need for break in. I would certainly never buy
a speaker (or a line stage) without a home trial.


I agree; but that is a different deal. The Break-In legend is purposefully
designed to "restrain" the probability of return. IF it were NOT than
responsible manufacturers would have already conducted the break-in experiments
and published the results in real peer-reviewed journals such as the JAES.

Most (all) dealers I
know completely understand that. The consumer may find that the
speakers do sound lousy at home, but may be due to room and associated
equipment issues or other issues even those related to break in. It
doesn't matter as long as we can take the opportunity to get a home
trial.


Home trials are a different issue from Break-in. Home trial is a policy.
Break-In is an engineering effect.


Besides, I don't see many (or any that I know, even Joe Six Pack)
consumers buying speakers that they are from the onset sonically
displeased with in the dealers show room.


Really. If that's so than why would a manufacturer specify a break-in period if
they haven't conducted relicable experiments to show they are needed?


The dealers' claim is
usually "if you think you like these speakers now just wait until you
break them in a little". I mean if a consumer buys a speaker that they
don't particularly like or just likes a little in the dealers show
room banking on that they will love the speaker after break in, can
you really protect that person with definitive data on break in
phenomena?


I agree that customers should have courted the literature before purchase. And
I fully understand that the sales staff certianly is unlikely to "know" the
truth. That doesn't make Break-In NOT an Urban Legend.

I say let's use the manufacturers and dealers claims that speakers
require break in to our advantage.


How can that happen when you disregard the facts of the matter? Return Policy
is a separate matter and Break-In legend simply confuses matters.
  #29   Report Post  
Uranium Committee
 
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Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message ...
On 26 Sep 2004 14:51:46 GMT, "L David Matheny"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ...
snip
My only concern is - how will I know when they have stopped
breaking in, and started wearing out? You can't reasonably have
one without the other.....................

It's all the same. You're just trying to move into the long (we hope)
linear part of the wearing-out curve.


Perhaps so. But, given that people who've investigated this
possibility, such as Tom Nousaine and the redoubtable Dick Pierce,
seem to regard 'break-in' as a non-event after the first couple of
*seconds*, and given others (such as the OP himself) who claim never
to have observed 'wear out', do we have any real*evidence* that
break-in really exists? If not, then surely a search for 'the best
break-in CD' is as pointless as arguing which shade of green is best
for painting the edges of CDs?


Mike Scarpitti here.

I have argued vociferously against such myths as 'burn-in' as it's
called on Head-Fi. I was banned for a month simply because I refuse to
believe in this fairy tale.

http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/forum...p?s=&forumid=2

The ONLY thing that playing signals through a driver can do is to heat
it up. If it is allowed to cool, it will return to the same state.
  #31   Report Post  
Steven Sullivan
 
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Dersu wrote:
"Chelvam" wrote in message
...

How about crossover? Do they need break-in?


Now you have got me worried! Should I have broken in my new cables? They are
a kind of copper wire and they are a bit longer than the old ones, can
anyone tell me if I'm missing out on that final ounce of performance?



They don't need any more breaking in, but they could benefit by
being wrapped once around a Shakti Stone for a fortnight.


--
-S
Your a boring little troll. How does it feel? Go blow your bad breath elsewhere.
  #32   Report Post  
Mike Gilmour
 
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On 28 Sep 2004 00:46:02 GMT, B&D wrote:

I find the speaker "break in" vaguely reminiscent of the old wear-out
"bathtub" curves - where there is a period of early failure, followed by a
period of constant failure rate (hopefully low) and then an accelerating
failure rate as the components themselves wear out.


Except that this isn't what actually happens, except perhaps for foam
surrounds, and that's just chemical degradation, not actual wear. All
the available evidence suggests that driver 'break-in' occurs in the
first few seconds, if at all.

DO tubes "break in" - I kinow they need to warm up some to perform to
their
peak - but is there a period of breakin?


Actually no, tubes begin to wear out from the first time they're
switched on. The only question is - how much do you allow them to
degrade before changing them? Doesn't seem like a great recipe for
top-class sound to me..................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering


That's a bit like saying your car begins to wear out driving it away from
the showroom, which of course it does. A new output valve under fixed bias
may take a couple of hours for Ia to settle down thereafter it stays
generally okay till the end of its life when emission starts to fade away...
that happens to us all eventually ;-
I'd say if you are having the readjust standing bias frequently then the
valve most likely dying..so just change the valve (matched pair then both)
and rebias..only takes a couple of minutes.

Mike

  #33   Report Post  
Chelvam
 
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"Dersu" wrote in message

snip....snip..

Now you have got me worried! Should I have broken in my new cables? They

are
a kind of copper wire and they are a bit longer than the old ones, can
anyone tell me if I'm missing out on that final ounce of performance?



Oh yes, you need to break in the cable. If I am not mistaken Sheffield Lab
got Burn in Cd for cable, speakers and probably others. That's the view of
many.

But having said that, I have not heard any significant difference because it
is my habit to let things run for about 50 hours or so before listening. The
only thing which i noticed of break in was after changing some caps i.e
black gates, hovland which I think it probably improved the sound after
about 100 hours. Others I am not so sure. And, I do not want to debate on
this.

  #34   Report Post  
Chelvam
 
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"Nousaine" wrote in message
...


snip..................

But how can I complete the 150 hours of burn-in playback during the 7 day
return period to assure that I haven't unfairly disadvantaged the speaker

with
this procedure?


Business minded ones invented some sort of burn in CDs to shorten the time.

  #36   Report Post  
 
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"I say let's use the manufacturers and dealers claims that speakers
require break in to our advantage."

I say let's put such claims in the same pot as many of their other
marketing/publishing claims, rubbish meant to promote the "I hear it, I
really really do, don't you too, don't you believe me"?. Such claims
require repeatable proof up front, not as market/publishing gossip and
"Yes, I hear too"! responses cultivated as part of the commercial intrest.
Tests presented here, and elsewhere, show that any change is minor, return
to baseline when cooling occurs, and is offset by other changes so as to
make any audible results highly unlikely; that is the benchmark. In
response we get a chorus of "I hear it too!" untested uncontrolled
anecdotal testimonials. Many have suggest it it is the hearing perception
that changes in a few days, not the hardware, and it is that which the
marketing/publishing folk count on to happen to bolster support for the
"audition" model to which they subscribe/sell and which they wave about as
a reason to pay attention to them as some authority on matters audio.
  #37   Report Post  
Wessel Dirksen
 
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"Wylie Williams" wrote in message ...
I know that many audiophiles believe that speakers need a period of break-in
to sound their best, while others disagree.

This post is a request for those who believe in speaker break-in to provide
advice, and it is also request that those who disagree allow those of us
they believe to be mistaken to continue in the error of our ways without
comment.

I am breaking in a pair of Gallo Reference III speakers in my garage on 24
hour/day FM music, which I plan to stop at 120 hours. I do this on the
advice of Gallo, and am told by Gallo that more power the better, as they
personally believe in break-in, and several reports they have received say
that for these speakers there is a definite break-in point that must be
reached for best quality. They further recommend using high power for best
results. My problem is that once I bring these into my living room I will
not be able to give them high power very often, as I have a wife who will be
disturbed by the noise. I wish to find the best way to continue the break-in
these speakers a few hours at a time.

While I have hard the general statement that break-in if desirable, I
haven't seen anything specific onwhat to play and how loud. It would be
easy to put a CD on repeat on occasion when we go out. I wonder if anyone
has experience with the best signals to play through speakers for break in.
Music? What sort? Test CDs? Which CDs? Which tracks?


This was recently addressed elsewhere. From my experience with very
many drivers through the years, and from talking to transducer
engineers at some of the main manufacturers, there seems to be little
mechanical break in these days with the typical modern cone drivers
with polymer suspensions. Specifically, Cms and Rms, and thus
indirectly Fs and Qt don't significantly change from 1st hit to after
rumbling around for many hours. Possibly, the hysteresis profile
loosens up with some, but if you allow the cone to move enough this is
also of no importance, Fs won't change. Some have previously referred
to Small's recommendation in his 1973 paper to have the cone barely
moving when measuring T/S but this doesn't apply today and I don't
feel it ever did. Drivers back then had pleated surrounds and were
stiff with small Xmax's so maybe this was precautionary advice. This
small part of the article was not science.

Some dome tweeters do change timbre after some running in, especially
coated fabric, but you can plainly hear them loosen up within a few
minutes. I assume we're discussing high end here, so there will always
be QA testing and very often 2x; before and after assembly. Assembly
line QA testing is also done after some run in and therefore drivers
themselves will not be virgins when you get 'em.

So what's with all those stories about how speakers change after
setup? How about atmospheric conditions changing with setup? Just got
your new speakers in February and you live in Minnesota, well yeah
they're going to "break in" or better said, warm up. Heck even
humidity can change a driver slightly if they were packaged in plastic
and then opened up in a damp environment. Many tweeters absorb some
ambiant humidity and get a bit heavier this way. Damping materials can
shift and slowly settle if oriented differently in the stock room. All
of this is potentially (but not likely) audible but doesn't come from
the drivers themselves, it comes environmental influences on the
drivers.

I'll leave break in of crossover components to those who know better
but that idea intuitively seems quite rediculous to me. As far as
break in program material goes, I'm with Dersu on this one, listen and
enjoy. Music in the emotional lines of celebration would probably work
best. If your new loudspeakers should require break-in, who cares,
they'll do it all by themselves so let them perform for you while
doing so.

If you should want to break an individual driver's cherry prior to the
design process to be sure, high pass filtered pink noise for tweeters
and for woofers / cone drivers +/- 1.5x Fs sinewave rumbling at 2/3
Xmax work well.
  #38   Report Post  
Steven Sullivan
 
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Mike Gilmour wrote:
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On 28 Sep 2004 00:46:02 GMT, B&D wrote:

I find the speaker "break in" vaguely reminiscent of the old wear-out
"bathtub" curves - where there is a period of early failure, followed by a
period of constant failure rate (hopefully low) and then an accelerating
failure rate as the components themselves wear out.


Except that this isn't what actually happens, except perhaps for foam
surrounds, and that's just chemical degradation, not actual wear. All
the available evidence suggests that driver 'break-in' occurs in the
first few seconds, if at all.

DO tubes "break in" - I kinow they need to warm up some to perform to
their
peak - but is there a period of breakin?


Actually no, tubes begin to wear out from the first time they're
switched on. The only question is - how much do you allow them to
degrade before changing them? Doesn't seem like a great recipe for
top-class sound to me..................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering


That's a bit like saying your car begins to wear out driving it away from
the showroom, which of course it does.


Or like saying your LPs begin wearing out as soon as you start playing them.
Oops, wait: they *do*.



--
-S
Your a boring little troll. How does it feel? Go blow your bad breath elsewhere.
  #40   Report Post  
Robert C. Lang
 
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(Nousaine) wrote in message ...
(Robert C. Lang) wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message
...
My only concern is - how will I know when they have stopped

breaking
in, and started wearing out? You can't reasonably have one without the
other.....................


Does it necessarily follow that a period of "break-in" leads directly
into an immediate period of decline? Can it be that the break-in
period is followed by a lengthy "plateau" period in which performance
stays within minimum specification or peak efficiency before
noticeably or measurably beginning to wear out?


Why would that be implied? Do drag racers get faster with use? Do race cars
have to be broken-in?


I don't know about drag racers and racecars but I assume the principal
would be the same as with high revving motorcycles and automobiles.
The manufacturers strongly recommend that you keep the engine
revolutions down during the "break in" period, and that you change
your oil more frequently during the brake in period. Do these machines
perform better (faster) after they have been driven for a while? All
the car magazines say yes and have published times to support this
(not to prove anything). But of course they are not about to race a
car right off the assembly line. That could cause severe damage or
shorten the life of the engine. So may be the car is as fast right off
the assembly line as it is after the break in period. But we will
never know because no one is about to risk damage to his or her
expensive machinery to prove a point.

I'm not talking about just speakers, but any product that has moving
parts (but also electronics as well). If speaker materials do change
their behavior maybe it's like breaking in a pair of shoes; the first
minutes, or maybe even the first hours (hopefully not) the shoe will
quickly feel better as it "loosens up" and conforms to your
feet(hopefully not the other way around, but maybe your feet do a
little conforming also.) After the "break in" process the shoe has a
"constant" feel about it for months or years until they begin to
noticeably wear and start to feel uncomfortable again.


Sure; but that example has 'touching' moving parts. Your feet and body fluids
are in direct contact plus there is plenty of direct pressure from external
forces.


Isn't there a lot of direct pressure and environmental forces brought
to bear on speaker drivers, especially woofers?

I currently own 2 pair of Penny Loafers that are now 20 years old. Both have
had several set of soles/heels over the years. However I seldom wear them these
days and they both feel now feel "strange" when I do even though each pair was
well-broken-in and fully comfortable when rotated out of service. Sitting in my
closet didn't cause the shoes to change .... my feel and my feet are the only
change agents.


Not exactly. Shoes sitting in the closet for extended periods, such as
20 years, *do* change. Everything on the planet, unless they are
hermetically sealed begins to change/wear from the time it is
produced. The environment, even on shoes sitting in the closet, can
cause not so subtle change and deterioration. Nevertheless, your point
is well made because you would more likely changed far more than the
shoes.

Baseball gloves
are clearly that way. They can take a season to loosen up, and then
they stay seemingly constant for years.


This is pure conjecture. My glove never took a season to "loosen up" it began
loosening from the first day and never stopped. Just because I only played
baseball/softball in the summer months it may have psychological "seemed like
there was a lengthy full performance period."


Of course, your glove began to loosen up from the first day and never
stopped, which is why I used the word "seemingly" stayed constant. The
point is when first purchased the glove is not ready for a player
under game conditions until it's "broken in" as determined by the ball
player. The glove is just used in practice situations with the
previous glove still used for the game. And even when the new glove is
first used in "game" situations it still may not be completely broken
in. Then, perhaps over the next 2-3 years are so, as you correctly
point out, the glove will continue to "loosen", "wear", "deteriorate",
whatever term you feel is most appropriate, but all the while meeting
minimum specifications, as determined by the player, for good
performance. Then at some point it becomes too loose, too broken in
and it becomes time to break in a new glove.

Here's the counter example. How many times have you been ready to resume play
in the spring only to discover that your trusty glove became 'worn-out' over
the winter. Here's another good example; who has NOT found his old glove from a
past glorious period of baseball greatness and found it has has "worn-out"
sitting the closet?


Never really had those experiences or I have forgotten about them.
Perhaps because living in California, we literally coach and play
organized ball (in leagues) 10-12 months out of the year. We go right
from fall ball to winter ball. Of course, a glove sitting in the
closet for a long period of time, such as what you described, *will*
continue to deteriorate, like everything else on the planet, unless
its hermetically sealed. A closet will offer only partial protection
and may actually be harmful to leather because it's not maintained.
But, nevertheless, I see your point. Clearly, there are non-physical,
psychological factors at play here as well. But one does not mutually
exclude the other. And if speaker break in does exist it would involve
both, as all the other examples we have bee talking about.


Or the time when we had some
doors hung. They did not swing right, they were a little stiff, even
though they were hung properly.


A drop of oil and/or a sag of the hinges is a pretty good cure. But that's not
'breakin-in" If they were stiff when hung they weren't "properly" hung.

The craftsman assured us that in a few days, after breaking in (use)
they would feel fine. He was right; after a little use the doors began
to open and close (swing) as expected and have done so for years.


I'm not sure who was hanging your doors but if they were 'stiff' in the
beginning they should have been made right.


There is nothing to suggest that the doors were not hung properly to
begin with. Maybe the hinges, as stated by the craftsman, needed to
break-in for a day or two. In any event, it has been 20 years and the
doors work great. No oil was applied. They were not rehung. Improperly
hung doors cannot self correct.


There are other examples such as my motorcycle. The
clutch/transmission system was stiff when first purchased. Shifting
had to be done very deliberately and was audibly clunky. But in a few
days or weeks, as cautioned by experienced riders, shifting reached an
optimum tension level, became smoother, more quite and stayed that way
for many years before finally beginning to wear out (became loose and
unreliable). Many veteran BMW riders (not me) don't consider their
engines (not transmissions) fully broken in until after 40,000 miles.



First of all I think that 'getting used' to the action may apply to much of
this.


Of course, getting use to it plays a part, but that does not explain
the transmission smoothing out and becoming audibly quieter in a few
days. Again, there are physical and non-physical factors at play here.
One does not mutually exclude the other. You really don't believe that
the interaction, friction, or whatever of moving parts can cause this
kind of change?

It is true that
elastic parts (spider, surround) may change with wear but simple experiments
have shown that this type of "wear" doesn't occur with short periods of use.


That's all I'm talking about. Now whether these changes are audible is
an entirely different question, which for me is not a burning
question.

I have never formed an opinion on speaker break in because whether it
exists or not, the listener, it would appear, by taking the time to
listen over a few days or weeks, can make a more accurate, sensible
decision with respect to their tastes.



Now you are talking about "listener" acclaimitization or perhaps
training but
NOT speaker break-in.


Of course, I'm talking about (including)listener acclimatization, room
interaction, changes in the speaker and anything else that might
contribute to reaching a sensible decision for the buyer on whether he
or she will like the speakers for the long haul.


Resources for researching speaker break-in, if they do exist, should
probably be redirected for more worth while pursuits.

Robert C. Lang


This effect has been investigated. It's an urban legend.


Urban legend? I really don't believe the term was even in my active
vocabulary until I joined this group that will sometimes immortalize
certain subjects, such as speaker break-in. For me, personally,
speaker break-in has never been a factor in me buying or rejecting a
speaker. I really believe that the whole thing is overblown, in this
group, not by those who subscribe to the belief, such as Mr. Williams,
but more so by those who lambaste or ridicule those who do believe
that audible changes can occur in the first few hours or days with a
new speaker. The "urban legend", is being fostered and fueled, given
added airtime, by those that claim to want to squelch it. I believe
Mr. Williams was sincere with his request "that those who disagree
allow those of us they believe to be mistaken to continue in the error
of our ways without comment." Well, at least he gave it a shot.

I find speaker break in, true or false, not worthy of all the ire that
it draws. The phenomenon is finite, lasting only a few hours or days.
I have yet to personally know a victim; that is, anyone who has lost
money or were stuck with speakers they did not like because they were
misled into believeing they would love them after the return policy
had expired but before the break-in was complete. On the contrary I
and audiophiles that I know ensure that the return policy provides
ample time for a home trial to undo a mistake. It's not that
difficult!

On the other hand, speaker cables and interconnects have a much more
profound effect on the consumers pocketbook. I personally know many
audiophiles that have spent untold hundreds and thousands of dollars
on these accessories. Do high priced speaker cables and interconnects
make a difference? That is a far more burning issue for me because if
they don't make a difference thousands of audiophiles may have been
victimized.


Robert C. Lang


P.S.

May be we could conduct a poll, unscientific though it may be, on who
(and *how*)in this group has been victimized because of speaker break
in beliefs. I really would like to know.
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