[Dave O'Heare]

One of my clients is interested in moving away from their current recording
system for services (via Bogen mixer/amp to cassette deck, delivered by hand
to shut-ins) to something that allows them to put the audio up on the
church's website more easily.

The needs are for a simple recording system, preferably one button push
after power-on. The Zoom H2 and others of that ilk seemed to be likely
candidates, except that it's too easy to steal something so small, I think.
Stuff that gets too complex will annoy them and not get used (after looking
at the Owner's Manual for the Tascam SS-CDR1, I worry that trying to get
them to select the correct device, etc. will generate service calls,
f'rinstance).

Is there anything out there that allows for recording to SD or compact flash
or USB drive or something, is as easy to use as a cassette deck, and is
about the size of a cassette deck or is easily tied down? I did consider a
CD recorder, but it has the problem of limited recording capacity (80
minutes is likely enough for *most* services, but I'd kinda hoped for
something that was less limited). Does anyone make a CD recorder that
records to CD in MP3/WMA format, perhaps?

Am I missing something?

Dave O'Heare
oheareATmagmaDOTca

[[email protected]]

On Sep 9, 6:00*pm, "Dave O'Heare" wrote:
One of my clients is interested in moving away from their current recording
system for services (via Bogen mixer/amp to cassette deck, delivered by hand
to shut-ins) to something that allows them to put the audio up on the
church's website more easily.

The needs are for a simple recording system, preferably one button push
after power-on. The Zoom H2 and others of that ilk seemed to be likely
candidates, except that it's too easy to steal something so small, I think.
Stuff that gets too complex will annoy them and not get used (after looking
at the Owner's Manual for the Tascam SS-CDR1, I worry that trying to get
them to select the correct device, etc. will generate service calls,
f'rinstance).

Is there anything out there that allows for recording to SD or compact flash
or USB drive or something, is as easy to use as a cassette deck, and is
about the size of a cassette deck or is easily tied down? *I did consider a
CD recorder, but it has the problem of limited recording capacity (80
minutes is likely enough for *most* services, but I'd kinda hoped for
something that was less limited). Does anyone make a CD recorder that
records to CD in MP3/WMA format, perhaps?

Am I missing something?

Dave O'Heare
oheareATmagmaDOTca

You can use whatever mixing setup you now have but then run the record
outputs into a computer audio interface (an iMic for $29) and use
something as simple as the free version of Wiretap or Audio Hijack and
record directly to the computer (if it's a Mac) and upload directly to
the website. Audio Hijack Pro will allow you to add plugins (at least
a compressor) to enhance the recordings (Wiretap Pro does the same but
is a clunkier user interface for plugins).

[Richard Crowley]

"Dave O'Heare" wrote...
Is there anything out there that allows for recording to SD or compact
flash or USB drive or something, is as easy to use as a cassette deck, and
is about the size of a cassette deck or is easily tied down? I did
consider a CD recorder, but it has the problem of limited recording
capacity (80 minutes is likely enough for *most* services, but I'd kinda
hoped for something that was less limited). Does anyone make a CD recorder
that records to CD in MP3/WMA format, perhaps?

http://www.ikey-audio.com/ikey.htm

Basic and simple.
Easy enough to bolt down to prevent someone from walking away
with it in their pocket..
Records to a USB thumb (Flash) "drive" or to a USB hard drive.
USB thumb drives are very cheap, sometimes even free. :-)

[Mike Rivers]

Dave O'Heare wrote:

The needs are for a simple recording system, preferably one button push
after power-on. The Zoom H2 and others of that ilk seemed to be likely
candidates, except that it's too easy to steal something so small,

Stealing? In a church? Haven't they heard of the Ten Commandments?

Why not have the person who makes the recordings carry the record along
with him or her, plug it in, record, unplug it, and take it home. Or
you could screw it to a large board (it has a 1/4-20 threaded tripod
socket in the bottom) or attach it to the table with the sound equipment
or other place where it would be permanently installed. It wouldn't be
difficult for someone who put his mind to it to steal it, but it would
make the point that it's supposed to stay there, and likely to encourage
the casual pickpocket.




--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Arny Krueger]

"Dave O'Heare" wrote in message


One of my clients is interested in moving away from their
current recording system for services (via Bogen
mixer/amp to cassette deck, delivered by hand to
shut-ins) to something that allows them to put the audio
up on the church's website more easily.

We made the move away from cassette to a CD recorder over 4 years ago.
Recently I was asked to convert one of the more recent of those cassette
tapes into a CD. It was really disappointing to have to listen to the sermon
while I was doing the transcription and editing. Can we all say "Modulation
Noise"?

The needs are for a simple recording system, preferably
one button push after power-on. The Zoom H2 and others of
that ilk seemed to be likely candidates, except that it's
too easy to steal something so small, I think. Stuff that
gets too complex will annoy them and not get used (after
looking at the Owner's Manual for the Tascam SS-CDR1, I
worry that trying to get them to select the correct
device, etc. will generate service calls, f'rinstance).

I understand that Tascam and Marantz among others, have flash-based
recorders in a large physical format that resembles a standard studio CD or
cassette recorder. Check the usual sources, and see what the current run of
model numbers are like.

Is there anything out there that allows for recording to
SD or compact flash or USB drive or something, is as easy
to use as a cassette deck, and is about the size of a
cassette deck or is easily tied down?

Sure, ever hear of Google?

I did consider a
CD recorder, but it has the problem of limited recording
capacity (80 minutes is likely enough for *most*
services, but I'd kinda hoped for something that was less
limited).

It appears that we've been somewhat successful in getting our pastor to
moderate his wind by pointing out that if he goes over 80 minutes, his
closing prayer will be lost to posterity. ;-)

Does anyone make a CD recorder that records to
CD in MP3/WMA format, perhaps?

I think so, but I'd never recommend it given all the great flash-based
recorders that are out there.


Am I missing something?

www.google.com

[Brent Lievers]

Dave O'Heare wrote:
Is there anything out there that allows for recording to SD or compact flash
or USB drive or something, is as easy to use as a cassette deck, and is
about the size of a cassette deck or is easily tied down? I did consider a
CD recorder, but it has the problem of limited recording capacity (80
minutes is likely enough for *most* services, but I'd kinda hoped for
something that was less limited). Does anyone make a CD recorder that
records to CD in MP3/WMA format, perhaps?

If there is a little flexibility with respect to size, why not use an
(new/old/donated) PC? Most will already have a soundcard and CD burner,
so simply install Audacity (or some other free recording software) and
you're good to go. The recording time is only limited by harddrive space,
and you can provide both audio CDs and MP3s.

Brent

[hank alrich]

Dave O'Heare wrote:

The needs are for a simple recording system, preferably one button push
after power-on. The Zoom H2 and others of that ilk seemed to be likely
candidates, except that it's too easy to steal something so small, I think.

The H2 works very well and costs very little. Once the preferences for
input and format have been set It's a two-button-push after power-on,
but it's two pushes of the same button.

If the line input is connected it is automatically selected.

The first push of the Red button puts it into record-ready mode, and
the meters show input level in the presence of signal, with the little
red blinking. Another push, the little red light goes steadily on, and
it's recording.

Transfer to computer is simple. Connect via USB. The H2 turns on and a
menu comes up with the cursor in the proper place. Push the Red button
and the H2 mounts on the computer's desktop as an external USB drive.
Drag 'n' drop files and you're ready to do whatever with them. If you do
this a lot you'll find a card reader a fine timesaver.

Do they really have to worry about parishioners stealing stuff from the
church? I guess there could be folks who come to church just to see if
there's anything to steal. Do they not have any relatively secure
storage?

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[hank alrich]

Brent Lievers wrote:

If there is a little flexibility with respect to size, why not use an
(new/old/donated) PC? Most will already have a soundcard and CD burner,
so simply install Audacity (or some other free recording software) and
you're good to go. The recording time is only limited by harddrive space,
and you can provide both audio CDs and MP3s.

Great idea. For instance, a friend came over yesterday and gave us his
late mother's old iMac. Something like that would work fine, and the
cost is something to appreciate.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Geetar Dave]

On Sep 9, 9:00 pm, "Dave O'Heare" wrote:
One of my clients is interested in moving away from their current recording
system for services (via Bogen mixer/amp to cassette deck, delivered by hand
to shut-ins) to something that allows them to put the audio up on the
church's website more easily.

The needs are for a simple recording system, preferably one button push
after power-on. The Zoom H2 and others of that ilk seemed to be likely
candidates, except that it's too easy to steal something so small, I think.
Stuff that gets too complex will annoy them and not get used (after looking
at the Owner's Manual for the Tascam SS-CDR1, I worry that trying to get
them to select the correct device, etc. will generate service calls,
f'rinstance).

Is there anything out there that allows for recording to SD or compact flash
or USB drive or something, is as easy to use as a cassette deck, and is
about the size of a cassette deck or is easily tied down? I did consider a
CD recorder, but it has the problem of limited recording capacity (80
minutes is likely enough for *most* services, but I'd kinda hoped for
something that was less limited). Does anyone make a CD recorder that
records to CD in MP3/WMA format, perhaps?

Am I missing something?

Dave O'Heare
oheareATmagmaDOTca

This was part of my job for about 5 years, until I went independent
fairly recently.

I recommend, if possible, going towards some kind of computer. There
are more options available, from the file-level up to the finished
media. AND, it can sit on a LAN with shared network folders.

We got a lot of mileage out of a desktop PC, Sony Sound Forge, CD-
Architect and a $75 stereo Edirol USB audio interface connected to
some stereo bus from the FOH console. We could go from a finished
recording to a burned CD in a few minutes. At the same time we could
save the finished audio as an MP3, and send it up to a web server.

The PC can be old, and you can use cheaper (or free) software. An old
Pentium III machine would be more than adequate for basic stereo
recording.

-dave-----:::
www.myspace/geetardave

[Richard Crowley]

"Geetar Dave" wrote ...
I recommend, if possible, going towards some kind of computer. There
are more options available, from the file-level up to the finished
media. AND, it can sit on a LAN with shared network folders.

I agree that a second-hand, donated ("hand-me-down", "waterfalled")
computer is an excelent choice for several reasons...
1) Cost. It can be implemented for free in most cases. H/W & S/W
2) Record time. Even with the smallest hard drive still operating it
offers more than enough capacity to store months worth of programs.
3) Flexibility. You can record in you choice of formats, and with
networking, etc. you can electronically distribute/forward the files
for post-production, duplication, distribution, etc. etc.

The PC can be old, and you can use cheaper (or free) software. An old
Pentium III machine would be more than adequate for basic stereo
recording.

Oh, it doesn't even need to be that new! We were recording audio
long before Pentiums came along. :-)

HOWEVER:
A computer-based solution does NOT meet Mr. O'Heare's
(likely the client's?) stated requirements...
"Simple", "not too complex"
"one button push after power-on"
"recording to SD, CF, USB drive, etc."
"easy to use as a cassette deck"
"about the size of a cassette deck or easily tied down"

Now if you want make the case that perhaps Mr. O'Heare
has some educating and negotiation with the client in his
future, I would agree! :-)

IME, however providing a compter-based solution would
be greatly depedent on the age and computer-savvy of
their typical operations staff. For some it might be ideal,
for other situations, it is a disaster on a stick.

[Mike Rivers]

On Sep 10, 12:06 pm, Geetar Dave wrote:

I recommend, if possible, going towards some kind of computer. There
are more options available, from the file-level up to the finished
media. AND, it can sit on a LAN with shared network folders.

Remember that right up front, Dave asked for a SIMPLE system, one that
was as easy to use as a cassette. A computer might be simple for
someone who has taken the time to learn how to use DAW software but to
a cassette user, it can be very daunting.

I think that a flash memory recorder is about as close as you can get
to a cassette, some closer than others, but all simpler than any
computer-based system. Cheaper, too. A church might easily get a
computer donated, but probably not an audio interface and software,
and someone knowledgeable enough to put it all together and teach the
operator(s) how to make it go.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 10, 3:39*pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Sep 10, 12:06 pm, Geetar Dave wrote:

I recommend, if possible, going towards some kind of computer. There
are more options available, from the file-level up to the finished
media. AND, it can sit on a LAN with shared network folders.

Remember that right up front, Dave asked for a SIMPLE system, one that
was as easy to use as a cassette. A computer might be simple for
someone who has taken the time to learn how to use DAW software but to
a cassette user, it can be very daunting.

I think that a flash memory recorder is about as close as you can get
to a cassette, some closer than others, but all simpler than any
computer-based system. Cheaper, too. A church might easily get a
computer donated, but probably not an audio interface and software,
and someone knowledgeable enough to put it all together and teach the
operator(s) how to make it go.

Someone still has to use a computer to transfer the file and upload it
to a website. The iMic interface is $29. The software is cheap (Audio
Hijack or Wiretap or free for Audacity). If it's going to end up in a
computer, it might as well start there. The learning curve isn't that
steep. A donated computer for a church shouldn't be that hard to get.

[Keith]

On Sep 11, 8:39*am, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Sep 10, 12:06 pm, Geetar Dave wrote:

I recommend, if possible, going towards some kind of computer. There
are more options available, from the file-level up to the finished
media. AND, it can sit on a LAN with shared network folders.

Remember that right up front, Dave asked for a SIMPLE system, one that
was as easy to use as a cassette. A computer might be simple for
someone who has taken the time to learn how to use DAW software but to
a cassette user, it can be very daunting.

I think that a flash memory recorder is about as close as you can get
to a cassette, some closer than others, but all simpler than any
computer-based system. Cheaper, too. A church might easily get a
computer donated, but probably not an audio interface and software,
and someone knowledgeable enough to put it all together and teach the
operator(s) how to make it go.

I have been reading this thread with interest as I am not entirely
happy with our solution.
Two years ago I replaced the cassette deck with a Yamaha CDR-HD1500
200GB Hard Drive that creates CD's and allows editing. I feel that
this unit is pitched at the 'enthusiastic consumer',it is certainly
not 'one touch' but not that complex. The hard drive allows you to get
over the anxiety of approaching 80 minutes and edit back. This is fine
for producing 44.1/16 CD's but as the web site was upgraded there was
a need for MP3 conversion and this is done by converting the CD via
computer to the web site. Lots of steps.
The iKey recording to Flash seems to me to be a neat solution but to
answer the OP's question about easy 'layman' recording there are two
aspects to church recording.
1. The person recording may or may not be experienced, so the process
must allow for this and be consumer level simple.
2.The Mp3 upload to the web site can be carried at a later time, by
someone else more experienced by taking the Flash drive with them.

[Keith]

On Sep 11, 11:18*am, Keith

This is where a computer on site may run into trouble.To upload to the
web page would need an internet connection (not an option at the
moment in our church,Wi Fi is possible I guess),room for a screen,and
the skill level to operate it.

Ideally the mixer would be consumer level design with a Flash drive
out. The Peavey Sanctuary Series automates some of the mixing but does
not record.
Any ideas?

Keith.

[Dave O'Heare]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
. ..
"Dave O'Heare" wrote...
Is there anything out there that allows for recording to SD or compact
flash or USB drive or something, is as easy to use as a cassette deck,
and is about the size of a cassette deck or is easily tied down? I did
consider a CD recorder, but it has the problem of limited recording
capacity (80 minutes is likely enough for *most* services, but I'd kinda
hoped for something that was less limited). Does anyone make a CD
recorder that records to CD in MP3/WMA format, perhaps?

http://www.ikey-audio.com/ikey.htm

Basic and simple.
Easy enough to bolt down to prevent someone from walking away
with it in their pocket..
Records to a USB thumb (Flash) "drive" or to a USB hard drive.
USB thumb drives are very cheap, sometimes even free. :-)


This is a good start, now to see if they sell anywwhere besides Toronto in
Canada.

Many thanks.

Dave O'H

[Dave O'Heare]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Dave O'Heare" wrote in message

Stuff that
gets too complex will annoy them and not get used (after
looking at the Owner's Manual for the Tascam SS-CDR1, I
worry that trying to get them to select the correct
device, etc. will generate service calls, f'rinstance).

I understand that Tascam and Marantz among others, have flash-based
recorders in a large physical format that resembles a standard studio CD
or cassette recorder. Check the usual sources, and see what the current
run of model numbers are like.

As I said above, I checked the Tascam owner's manual, and determined that it
wouldn't be usable because the menu system is designed for pro recordists,
not non-technical church folks.

Thanks anyhow.

[Dave O'Heare]

"Brent Lievers" wrote in message
...
Dave O'Heare wrote:
Is there anything out there that allows for recording to SD or compact
flash
or USB drive or something, is as easy to use as a cassette deck, and is
about the size of a cassette deck or is easily tied down? I did consider
a
CD recorder, but it has the problem of limited recording capacity (80
minutes is likely enough for *most* services, but I'd kinda hoped for
something that was less limited). Does anyone make a CD recorder that
records to CD in MP3/WMA format, perhaps?

If there is a little flexibility with respect to size, why not use an
(new/old/donated) PC? Most will already have a soundcard and CD burner,
so simply install Audacity (or some other free recording software) and
you're good to go. The recording time is only limited by harddrive space,
and you can provide both audio CDs and MP3s.

Size isn't the issue. Having to teach people to run the PC, run the
software, save the files, create the correct types of output files, back
things up, etc.; THAT is the issue.

Dave O'H

[Dave O'Heare]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...

Do they really have to worry about parishioners stealing stuff from the
church? I guess there could be folks who come to church just to see if
there's anything to steal. Do they not have any relatively secure
storage?

Relatively secure, I suppose, but that would mean plugging and unplugging
the device from the system every time they wanted to use it, and considering
that the minister recently lost her cell phone in her car for two days, I
don't think that's such a good idea.

Great person, great minister, but non-techie and has no interest in becoming
technical.

Dave O'H

[Dave O'Heare]

"Geetar Dave" wrote in message
...

This was part of my job for about 5 years, until I went independent
fairly recently.

I recommend, if possible, going towards some kind of computer.

Good points all, but there isn't a full-time tech, nor money to hire one,
nor a volunteer who's both reliable and knowledgeable.

Thanks

Dave O'H

[Dave O'Heare]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...

HOWEVER:
A computer-based solution does NOT meet Mr. O'Heare's
(likely the client's?) stated requirements...
"Simple", "not too complex"
"one button push after power-on"
"recording to SD, CF, USB drive, etc."
"easy to use as a cassette deck"
"about the size of a cassette deck or easily tied down"

Now if you want make the case that perhaps Mr. O'Heare
has some educating and negotiation with the client in his
future, I would agree! :-)

*OH* yeah, education and negotiation for sure. They're smart folks, but not
computer-savvy or even particularly technical-savvy, and they don't really
want to get embroiled in the techie stuff when their strengths are in the
ministerial stuff. Can't say I blame them, frankly.

And thanks, Richard, for reading what I said and replying so elegantly.

IME, however providing a compter-based solution would
be greatly depedent on the age and computer-savvy of
their typical operations staff. For some it might be ideal,
for other situations, it is a disaster on a stick.

Staff? I wish. The church secretary is a nice woman, but I can't imagine
trying to get her set up with even the simplest of DAWs. The minister is a
terrific minister and a brilliant person, but rather technically declined.
The person who looks after their website isn't a member of their church, nor
am I.

Dave O'H

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 01:02:32 -0400, "Dave O'Heare"
wrote:

Staff? I wish.

The person who looks after their website isn't a member of their church, nor
am I.

Reading though the thread, I wonder who does the recording
(not trivial) and the other more SR-ish stuff for services
(not trivial).

There are technical things happening during the service and
other technical things happening after the service. How
big a divide is there between the current sound mixer and
one who can also operate a recorder? Or is there no sound
mixer?

And couldn't the web person deal with just about *any* modern
form of media even easier than with a cassette tape?

I'm obviously missing important parts of the problem, but
at first blush it *seems* like required technical people
must already be in place. 'Course, different services will
differ.

All the best fortune,
Chris Hornbeck

[Keith]

On Sep 11, 2:52*pm, "Dave O'Heare" wrote:
"hank alrich" wrote in message

...

Do they really have to worry about parishioners stealing stuff from the
church? I guess there could be folks who come to church just to see if
there's anything to steal. Do they not have any relatively secure
storage?

Relatively secure, I suppose, but that would mean plugging and unplugging
the device from the system every time they wanted to use it, and considering
that the minister recently lost her cell phone in her car for two days, I
don't think that's such a good idea.

Great person, great minister, but non-techie and has no interest in becoming
technical.

Dave O'H

The mixer I assume is fixed and should be in a suitably designed and
lockable cabinet.The ikey can be left there connected to analog out
but everything should be locked out of site .It is best not to risk
temptation,our church welcomes visitors but no way are they going to
check the mixing desk,it just looks unprofessional for expensive
equipment to be in view.

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

I think that a flash memory recorder is about as close as you can get
to a cassette, some closer than others, but all simpler than any
computer-based system.

That's reminds me, don't Tascam and others make rackmountable recorders
that record to CF or other similar media? Seems like something like that
would be a direct replacement for a cassette deck.

Bingo, here we go:

http://www.tascam.com/products/ss-cdr1.html

http://www.tascam.com/products/ss-r1.html


I'd say either of those fits Dave's church customer's scenario well.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[hank alrich]

wrote:

On Sep 10, 3:39 pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Sep 10, 12:06 pm, Geetar Dave wrote:

I recommend, if possible, going towards some kind of computer. There
are more options available, from the file-level up to the finished
media. AND, it can sit on a LAN with shared network folders.

Remember that right up front, Dave asked for a SIMPLE system, one that
was as easy to use as a cassette. A computer might be simple for
someone who has taken the time to learn how to use DAW software but to
a cassette user, it can be very daunting.

I think that a flash memory recorder is about as close as you can get
to a cassette, some closer than others, but all simpler than any
computer-based system. Cheaper, too. A church might easily get a
computer donated, but probably not an audio interface and software,
and someone knowledgeable enough to put it all together and teach the
operator(s) how to make it go.

Someone still has to use a computer to transfer the file and upload it
to a website. The iMic interface is $29. The software is cheap (Audio
Hijack or Wiretap or free for Audacity). If it's going to end up in a
computer, it might as well start there. The learning curve isn't that
steep. A donated computer for a church shouldn't be that hard to get.

The person who uploads the files is not part of the church crew. There
is no advantage to a computer in this situation,. Dave has repeatedly
pointed out to us why that is.

He needs to provide a device that records to solid state media, whcih
can be given to the website person who wil then dump the audio into a
computer and upload it.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Kevin T]

On Sep 11, 2:08*pm, (hank alrich) wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote:
I think that a flash memory recorder is about as close as you can get
to a cassette, some closer than others, but all simpler than any
computer-based system.

That's reminds me, don't Tascam and others make rackmountable recorders
that record to CF or other similar media? Seems like something like that
would be a direct replacement for a cassette deck.

Bingo, here we go:

http://www.tascam.com/products/ss-cdr1.html

http://www.tascam.com/products/ss-r1.html

I'd say either of those fits Dave's church customer's scenario well.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

Or

http://www.music123.com/Marantz-PMD5...10628.Music123

This looks perfect for your web site person to access MP3's of the
service Via network or SD card.

[[email protected]]

On 2008-09-11 (hankalrich) said:
There is no advantage to a computer in this situation,. Dave has
repeatedly pointed out to us why that is.
He needs to provide a device that records to solid state media,
which can be given to the website person who wil then dump the
audio into a computer and upload it.
CHances are very good that the person responsible for this
bare bones system isn't savvy about the system itself even.
HE or she probably just throws the big switch to turn it on.
MOst likely traditional service with pastor, maybe an
organist or pianist, maybe (or not) a choir, otherwise
congregational singing.

i was involved in a sound system upgrade at my old church in
IOwa. Because of the desired capabilities of the old system
it couldn't be just a throw the big switch thing. we had a
separate power amp feeding sound to speakers in other spaces
than the sanctuary. HEnce the "operator" had to know to
fire up the mixer/amp unit first, then the auxilliary
amplifier unit.
I had tags affixed to each xlr connector coming to the mixer
denoting which source it was. A cheat sheet nearby told the
"operator" that "monitor" fed the sanctuary, main fed the
fellowship hall downstairs and the aux send fed the
auditorium upstairs which did nursery duty. THIs was so we
could record the services to cassette for shut-ins.

Chances are good that the secretary, who might be somewhat
computer savvy is not the custodian of this system. Chances
are real good that the gent in charge of building
maintenance and upkeep is in charge of it. A bunch of icons
on a screen and a mouse are going to be as foreign to this
guy as if they were speaking martian to him. iF somebody
even isadjusts one of the gain controls for the lectern
microphone he's probably just about out of his depth.





Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider

[Kevin T]

On Sep 11, 3:19*pm, wrote:
On 2008-09-11 (hankalrich) said:
* *There is no advantage to a computer in this situation,. Dave has
* *repeatedly pointed out to us why that is.
* *He needs to provide a device that records to solid state media,
* *which can be given to the website person who wil then dump the
* *audio into a computer and upload it.
CHances are very good that the person responsible for this
bare bones system isn't savvy about the system itself even.
HE or she probably just throws the big switch to turn it on.
MOst likely traditional service with pastor, maybe an
organist or pianist, maybe (or not) a choir, otherwise
congregational singing.

i was involved in a sound system upgrade at my old church in
IOwa. *Because of the desired capabilities of the old system
it couldn't be just a throw the big switch thing. *we had a
separate power amp feeding sound to speakers in other spaces
than the sanctuary. *HEnce the "operator" had to know to
fire up the mixer/amp unit first, then the auxilliary
amplifier unit.
I had tags affixed to each xlr connector coming to the mixer
denoting which source it was. *A cheat sheet nearby told the
"operator" that "monitor" fed the sanctuary, main fed the
fellowship hall downstairs and the aux send fed the
auditorium upstairs which did nursery duty. *THIs was so we
could record the services to cassette for shut-ins.

Chances are good that the secretary, who might be somewhat
computer savvy is not the custodian of this system. *Chances
are real good that the gent in charge of building
maintenance and upkeep is in charge of it. *A bunch of icons
on a screen and a mouse are going to be as foreign to this
guy as if they were speaking martian to him. *iF somebody
even isadjusts one of the gain controls for the lectern
microphone he's probably just about out of his depth.

Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider

OK

a Zoom H2 pre setup By you. on a micstand in good range of FOH. Run it
from AC hit 3 buttons& REC later hit stop. have secretary remove sd
card & upload MP3s

[[email protected]]

On 2008-09-11 said:
it couldn't be just a throw the big switch thing. ÿwe had a
separate power amp feeding sound to speakers in other spaces
than the sanctuary. ÿHEnce the "operator" had to know to
snippage
a Zoom H2 pre setup By you. on a micstand in good range of FOH. Run
it from AC hit 3 buttons& REC later hit stop. have secretary
remove sd card & upload MP3s

YEp, that would fit the op's needs I'd think. IF it must
run off a send from the sr system, rudimentary though it is
bolt it down, or provide some sort of way to keep it there.
I'm not the op in this case, just throwing out reasons why
the op might not desire a computerized solution.

wHEn we first built the church system I referenced in my
post you quoted I was around often, and our pastor was savvy
enough. HOwever, I was getting ready to move away, and our
pastor had moved on. The church was being served by a
variety of interim pastors. tHe buildings and grounds guy
was great about being there for workmen to do needed jobs,
shoveling snow, arranging to have the lawn mowed, etc.
HOwever, this guy was boiling 110% just standing at his
place on the factory floor working on the assembly line
every day. HE was at least literate enough that once we
affixed a cheat sheet on the wall he did fine.
I know one week he was very glad I showed up at all, as he
couldn't remember which box to turn on first, and I'd
admonished him that powering up in the wrong orde might do
nasty things to speakers.

regards,



Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider

[Dave O'Heare]

"Chris Hornbeck" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 01:02:32 -0400, "Dave O'Heare"
wrote:

Staff? I wish.

The person who looks after their website isn't a member of their church,
nor
am I.

Reading though the thread, I wonder who does the recording
(not trivial) and the other more SR-ish stuff for services
(not trivial).

Chris, the person who looks after the recording and sound reinforcement is
the minister, who turns on all the switches and presses "REC-PLAY" on the
cassette deck before the service.

There are technical things happening during the service and
other technical things happening after the service. How
big a divide is there between the current sound mixer and
one who can also operate a recorder? Or is there no sound
mixer?

There is no sound mixer person. There is a printed card with the settings
for the mixer/amp, giving the necessary settings for the controls.

And couldn't the web person deal with just about *any* modern
form of media even easier than with a cassette tape?

Precisely. The cassettes go out to the person who wants them, and are then
picked up and delivered to the next person. The recordings never make it
onto the web. That's what they're trying to change.

Thanks, Chris.

Dave O'H

[Arny Krueger]

"Dave O'Heare" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Dave O'Heare" wrote in message

Stuff that
gets too complex will annoy them and not get used (after
looking at the Owner's Manual for the Tascam SS-CDR1, I
worry that trying to get them to select the correct
device, etc. will generate service calls, f'rinstance).

I understand that Tascam and Marantz among others, have
flash-based recorders in a large physical format that
resembles a standard studio CD or cassette recorder. Check the usual
sources, and see what the current run of
model numbers are like.

As I said above, I checked the Tascam owner's manual, and
determined that it wouldn't be usable because the menu
system is designed for pro recordists, not non-technical
church folks.

(1) You didn't address my suggestion that you look at Marantz.

I have a cohort who couldn't comfortably master a Microtrack (got lost in
the menus), but loves his Marantz.

(2) Yes the unit has a ton of function and a user manual to match, but isn't
it true that once configured, you can still record by turning the machine
on, inserting media, and pressing the record and/or start buttons?

We use a HHB CD recorder and it has (fewer) but non-trivial menus. Once set
up, it takes power on, load media, and press 3 buttons to go, and 3 more to
stop and finalize. Nevertheless I've had two housewives, a 20-year-old and
a 12 year old boy who reliably cranked out a good CD-R every week.

[Richard Corfield[_3_]]

On 2008-09-11, Dave O'Heare wrote:

*OH* yeah, education and negotiation for sure. They're smart folks, but not
computer-savvy or even particularly technical-savvy, and they don't really
want to get embroiled in the techie stuff when their strengths are in the
ministerial stuff. Can't say I blame them, frankly.

And thanks, Richard, for reading what I said and replying so elegantly.

It would be solveable using an embedded solution if such a thing exists.

If you develop your own then you become the one support line which can
get expensive and difficult unless you're willing to make a business
selling one touch embedded solutions for this market. Of course you'd be
competing with all the other embedded solutions such as the Zoom F2 (too
small for this use and too portable) or more expensive "pro" gear (too
expensive?)

You could offer things like automated post processing or semi-automated
post processing if willing to spend time on development. A computer based
embedded solution could do the recording, allow the user to go back and
mark start and end and maybe enter a title or something "Sermon about
the sermon on the mount by Revd Bloggs". An automatic title could be
"Sermon at 10:24 on 15/9/2008" or guess the service "Sermon in 10:00
service on ...". It could then normalise or compress or otherwise clean
it, timestamp it automatically and upload it to the web site.

- Richard

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Kevin T wrote:

a Zoom H2 pre setup By you. on a micstand in good range of FOH. Run it
from AC hit 3 buttons& REC later hit stop. have secretary remove sd
card & upload MP3s

The Zoom H2 indeed comes to mind as possibly relevant for this.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[jdd]

Peter Larsen a écrit :
Kevin T wrote:

a Zoom H2 pre setup By you. on a micstand in good range of FOH. Run it
from AC hit 3 buttons& REC later hit stop. have secretary remove sd
card & upload MP3s

The Zoom H2 indeed comes to mind as possibly relevant for this.

I used it exacltly on this purpose recently. You have to try to set
the level manually during rehearsal if possible.

I used it only as a backup of my DV record, and as I couldn't manage
it during the show, I setup the automatic level. I was just a guest,
there, no rehearsal access :-( - but the level adjusting is too strong.

the H2 was just on his tripod on an unused harmonium on the side of
the church (with wind screen)

I had more freedom, I would have set it just in front of the chief
(between the chief and the choral)

the result is surprisingly good for a so cheap box

jdd

--
http://www.dodin.net
http://valerie.dodin.org
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

jdd wrote:

Peter Larsen a écrit :
Kevin T wrote:

a Zoom H2 pre setup By you. on a micstand in good range of FOH. Run
it from AC hit 3 buttons& REC later hit stop. have secretary
remove sd card & upload MP3s

The Zoom H2 indeed comes to mind as possibly relevant for this.

I used it exacltly on this purpose recently. You have to try to set
the level manually during rehearsal if possible.

? - I haven't close examined it, but it appears to simply have 3 settings.

I used it only as a backup of my DV record, and as I couldn't manage
it during the show, I setup the automatic level.

Just set it so that there is ample headroom and record 16 bit wave files.

jdd

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Mike Rivers]

jdd wrote:

The Zoom H2 indeed comes to mind as possibly relevant for this.

I used it exacltly on this purpose recently. You have to try to set
the level manually during rehearsal if possible.

My modus operandi with the H2 is that you don't set the level, you leave
the "record gain" setting at 100 and then CHECK the level to see that
it's not too high. If it is, switch the three-position gain switch to a
lower gain. If it's much too low, switch the gain up a notch and make
sure it's not then too high. With the record gain set to 100, the input
stage clips at full scale. If it's set lower (like the meter is hitting
the peak so you naturally want to turn it down) it will no longer hit
full scale, but it will still clip on peaks that would have hit full
scale had the record gain been set to 100 (or higher - it goes to 127).
This is a digital control that operates on the data after it goes
through A/D conversion.

Setting it higher than 100 to bring the peaks closer to full scale is OK
if you're going to listen to the recording immediately, but since in
order to do much of anything useful with it, you have to copy the file
to a computer, you can accomplish the same thing, and in the same
matter, with more control in a DAW. Alternately, you can use the
Normalize function on the Zoom to get the highest peak up to 0 dBFS.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[hank alrich]

jdd wrote:

Peter Larsen a écrit :
Kevin T wrote:

a Zoom H2 pre setup By you. on a micstand in good range of FOH. Run it
from AC hit 3 buttons& REC later hit stop. have secretary remove sd
card & upload MP3s

The Zoom H2 indeed comes to mind as possibly relevant for this.

I used it exacltly on this purpose recently. You have to try to set
the level manually during rehearsal if possible.

I used it only as a backup of my DV record, and as I couldn't manage
it during the show, I setup the automatic level. I was just a guest,
there, no rehearsal access :-( - but the level adjusting is too strong.

If I run mine formatted for 24 bit 44.1 KHz there is so much available
dynamic range that I needn't worry about pushing the level at all. I
most often use the middle setting, sometimes the lowest setting, and so
far, never the highest.

I have found that if feeding it via the line input it is very important
to leave lots of headroom. I think the analog portions of the input
circuitry allow nothing like full-scale operation before breaking into
serious distortion.

the H2 was just on his tripod on an unused harmonium on the side of
the church (with wind screen)

I had more freedom, I would have set it just in front of the chief
(between the chief and the choral)

the result is surprisingly good for a so cheap box

I agree. I bought my as a sketchpad and idea grabber, and it has proven
useful for far more than that.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[hank alrich]

Peter Larsen wrote:

jdd wrote:

Peter Larsen a écrit :
Kevin T wrote:

a Zoom H2 pre setup By you. on a micstand in good range of FOH. Run
it from AC hit 3 buttons& REC later hit stop. have secretary
remove sd card & upload MP3s

The Zoom H2 indeed comes to mind as possibly relevant for this.

I used it exacltly on this purpose recently. You have to try to set
the level manually during rehearsal if possible.

? - I haven't close examined it, but it appears to simply have 3 settings.

That is correct.

I used it only as a backup of my DV record, and as I couldn't manage
it during the show, I setup the automatic level.

Just set it so that there is ample headroom and record 16 bit wave files.

Better, get a 4 GB card and format it for 24 bit wave files. The
available dynamic range allows for very conservative setting of the gain
switch.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Mike Rivers]

hank alrich wrote:

I have found that if feeding it via the line input it is very important
to leave lots of headroom. I think the analog portions of the input
circuitry allow nothing like full-scale operation before breaking into
serious distortion.

The problem with the external analog input is that the input
sensitivity, even on the low gain range, is too high for a source with
nominal +4 dBu operating level. I have a set of cables with 15 dB pads
in the connectors that I use when recording off a console.

The external mic inputs don't have enough gain for most mics, and when
you set it to the high sensitivity, you get too much noise. When
recording with an output mic connected to the mic input, It's no better
than a cassette except for the lack of flutter. And when recording with
an outboard mic through a real preamp, you have to watch the output
level of the preamp lest it clip the front end.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

hank alrich wrote:

I have found that if feeding it via the line input it is very important
to leave lots of headroom. I think the analog portions of the input
circuitry allow nothing like full-scale operation before breaking into
serious distortion.

The problem with the external analog input is that the input
sensitivity, even on the low gain range, is too high for a source with
nominal +4 dBu operating level. I have a set of cables with 15 dB pads
in the connectors that I use when recording off a console.

Thanks. I've used it with two consoles. With Mackie 1202 I keep the
output levels so low that feeding it from the tape sends worked fine.
From an A&H MixWiz we fed it from the jacks that parallel the headphone
output and just used the cans level control to set the level.

I did have to coach and re-coach one FOH guy about not putting the level
where he "thought it should be". Giving him a CDR of his mix took final
care of that.

The external mic inputs don't have enough gain for most mics, and when
you set it to the high sensitivity, you get too much noise. When
recording with an output mic connected to the mic input, It's no better
than a cassette except for the lack of flutter. And when recording with
an outboard mic through a real preamp, you have to watch the output
level of the preamp lest it clip the front end.

I can't see a situation where I'd use it with external mics. If I'm
going to that trouble I'll haul the MIO and feed it with the Schoeps.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Jos Geluk]

hank alrich schreef:
Peter Larsen wrote:

jdd wrote:

Peter Larsen a écrit :
Kevin T wrote:
a Zoom H2 pre setup By you. on a micstand in good range of FOH. Run
it from AC hit 3 buttons& REC later hit stop. have secretary
remove sd card & upload MP3s
The Zoom H2 indeed comes to mind as possibly relevant for this.
I used it exacltly on this purpose recently. You have to try to set
the level manually during rehearsal if possible.
? - I haven't close examined it, but it appears to simply have 3 settings.

That is correct.


But after that, the recording level can be further adjusted. In standby
mode, press the REW or FF keys to lower or raise the recording level.

Jos.


--
Ardis Park Music
www.ardispark.nl