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  #1   Report Post  
apa
 
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Default Alternating Current means ALTERNATING current?

I was talking to an electrician doing some work in my building and
started asking some questions about AC. My electrical knowledge is
quite limited, but in the course of the conversation, I said something
about the the flow of current reversing direction twice every 60th of
a second. He said "No, the ACTUAL current always flows in one
direction from the hot to the neutral and it's the AMOUNT of current
flowing that alternates." Isn't that the definition of modulated DC,
not AC? I couldn't make any sense of his explanation of what he meant
by "actual current", but he insisted that current flows in ONE
DIRECTION ONLY. I really don't get what he's talking about - but he's
the professional. Can someone fill me in?
  #2   Report Post  
Ben Bradley
 
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On 16 Jun 2004 15:01:18 -0700, (apa) wrote:

I was talking to an electrician doing some work in my building and
started asking some questions about AC. My electrical knowledge is
quite limited, but in the course of the conversation, I said something
about the the flow of current reversing direction twice every 60th of
a second. He said "No, the ACTUAL current always flows in one
direction from the hot to the neutral and it's the AMOUNT of current
flowing that alternates." Isn't that the definition of modulated DC,
not AC? I couldn't make any sense of his explanation of what he meant
by "actual current", but he insisted that current flows in ONE
DIRECTION ONLY. I really don't get what he's talking about - but he's
the professional. Can someone fill me in?


I'm trying to interpret that in a way that he's right, but I can't.
You could almost say "power comes out of the hot" but you could just
as well say it comes out of the neutral - you need both connected to
get power.

The "hot" is called the hot because it's the one that has the high
voltage relative to ground - the neutral has (almost) no voltage
compared to ground (because it's acutually connected to ground at the
fuse/breaker box).
But during 1/120th second (in the USA and other places where 60Hz
power is used), current (presuming a resisiive load such as a light
bulb) comes out of the hot and goes into the neutral, and during the
next 120th second current goes into the hot and comes out of the
neutral.
-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley
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Bert Kraaijpoel
 
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apa wrote:
I was talking to an electrician doing some work in my building and
started asking some questions about AC. My electrical knowledge is
quite limited, but in the course of the conversation, I said something
about the the flow of current reversing direction twice every 60th of
a second. He said "No, the ACTUAL current always flows in one
direction from the hot to the neutral and it's the AMOUNT of current
flowing that alternates." Isn't that the definition of modulated DC,
not AC? I couldn't make any sense of his explanation of what he meant
by "actual current", but he insisted that current flows in ONE
DIRECTION ONLY. I really don't get what he's talking about - but he's
the professional. Can someone fill me in?


For all I know you are the professional here.

My regards

Bert Kraaijpoel

  #4   Report Post  
Danny Taddei
 
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Default

AC = Turn the knob and stand in front to feel the cold air.

This definition is the only one you need from June through September :-)

apa wrote:
I was talking to an electrician doing some work in my building and
started asking some questions about AC. My electrical knowledge is
quite limited, but in the course of the conversation, I said something
about the the flow of current reversing direction twice every 60th of
a second. He said "No, the ACTUAL current always flows in one
direction from the hot to the neutral and it's the AMOUNT of current
flowing that alternates." Isn't that the definition of modulated DC,
not AC? I couldn't make any sense of his explanation of what he meant
by "actual current", but he insisted that current flows in ONE
DIRECTION ONLY. I really don't get what he's talking about - but he's
the professional. Can someone fill me in?


  #5   Report Post  
Brandon Anderson
 
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Umm... Well, if you equate current to electrons, neither of you is "right."
If you measure peak voltage, than he's right in one regard, the voltage does
fluctuate. The electrons don't get a chance to go anywhere, really, as the
polarity of the electric field keeps reversing. Think of it this way: even
the ground has electrons. The electric field of the neutral (theoretically)
is the same as the ground, leading to no electric potential between the two
(ground does have a charge, but everything is relative to it). Hot,
however, has a potential relative to ground of 120v RMS (US). This is, in
one cycle the field goes 0 to (-)120 (can't remember the actual peak
voltage) to 0 to (+)120 to 0. When the cycle is negative, electrons move a
short distance from the hot wire to the neutral. When it is positive, it
attracts electrons from the neutral to the hot. Now, on a good day it is
safe to handle a live neutral, but I've read 80v from a neutral before, and
almost always get zapped.
Oh, the above holds true to single phase only. Dual phase is a little more
complicated because it involves the interaction of two fields relative to
each other... And I don't trust electricians; been in too many situations
where I've been shocked by shabby work and end up fixing it myself. You'd
find a physics book more informative than your electrician for sure.

--

____________________________________

Brandon Anderson
Lighting, Sound, and Video

http://www.bdanderson.com/


"apa" wrote in message
om...
I was talking to an electrician doing some work in my building and
started asking some questions about AC. My electrical knowledge is
quite limited, but in the course of the conversation, I said something
about the the flow of current reversing direction twice every 60th of
a second. He said "No, the ACTUAL current always flows in one
direction from the hot to the neutral and it's the AMOUNT of current
flowing that alternates." Isn't that the definition of modulated DC,
not AC? I couldn't make any sense of his explanation of what he meant
by "actual current", but he insisted that current flows in ONE
DIRECTION ONLY. I really don't get what he's talking about - but he's
the professional. Can someone fill me in?





  #6   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"apa" wrote in message
om..

I was talking to an electrician doing some work in my building and
started asking some questions about AC. My electrical knowledge is
quite limited, but in the course of the conversation, I said something
about the the flow of current reversing direction twice every 60th of
a second. He said "No, the ACTUAL current always flows in one
direction from the hot to the neutral and it's the AMOUNT of current
flowing that alternates." Isn't that the definition of modulated DC,
not AC? I couldn't make any sense of his explanation of what he meant
by "actual current", but he insisted that current flows in ONE
DIRECTION ONLY. I really don't get what he's talking about - but he's
the professional. Can someone fill me in?




** He is using "electrician's logic".

The "hot" wire is the one with electricity in it because it can give him a
shock while the neutral has no electricity in it because it does not.
Therefore the electricity flows from the hot to the cold - just like heat
does - in only one direction.




............. Phil



  #7   Report Post  
apa
 
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Default

Ben Bradley wrote in message . ..
On 16 Jun 2004 15:01:18 -0700, (apa) wrote:

I was talking to an electrician doing some work in my building and
started asking some questions about AC. My electrical knowledge is
quite limited, but in the course of the conversation, I said something
about the the flow of current reversing direction twice every 60th of
a second. He said "No, the ACTUAL current always flows in one
direction from the hot to the neutral and it's the AMOUNT of current
flowing that alternates." Isn't that the definition of modulated DC,
not AC? I couldn't make any sense of his explanation of what he meant
by "actual current", but he insisted that current flows in ONE
DIRECTION ONLY. I really don't get what he's talking about - but he's
the professional. Can someone fill me in?


I'm trying to interpret that in a way that he's right, but I can't.
You could almost say "power comes out of the hot" but you could just
as well say it comes out of the neutral - you need both connected to
get power.

The "hot" is called the hot because it's the one that has the high
voltage relative to ground - the neutral has (almost) no voltage
compared to ground (because it's acutually connected to ground at the
fuse/breaker box).
But during 1/120th second (in the USA and other places where 60Hz
power is used), current (presuming a resisiive load such as a light
bulb) comes out of the hot and goes into the neutral, and during the
next 120th second current goes into the hot and comes out of the
neutral.
-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley


That exactly what I thought. I would have disregarded what he said if
he wasn't an electrician. Thanks for the confirmation.
  #8   Report Post  
Steve King
 
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Default

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"apa" wrote in message
om..

I was talking to an electrician doing some work in my building and
started asking some questions about AC. My electrical knowledge is
quite limited, but in the course of the conversation, I said something
about the the flow of current reversing direction twice every 60th of
a second. He said "No, the ACTUAL current always flows in one
direction from the hot to the neutral and it's the AMOUNT of current
flowing that alternates." Isn't that the definition of modulated DC,
not AC? I couldn't make any sense of his explanation of what he meant
by "actual current", but he insisted that current flows in ONE
DIRECTION ONLY. I really don't get what he's talking about - but he's
the professional. Can someone fill me in?




** He is using "electrician's logic".

The "hot" wire is the one with electricity in it because it can give him

a
shock while the neutral has no electricity in it because it does not.
Therefore the electricity flows from the hot to the cold - just like heat
does - in only one direction.

............ Phil


I have found that Electricians who have gone through the apprentice schools
do, as Phil suggests, use a different way of describing the phenomenon of
electrical current flow. In several conversations with journeyman
electricians I've come to believe that their way of thinking about
electrical circuits serves them well for wiring buildings and adhering to
electrical codes. But, for those of us who learned our electrical theory
from an electonic perspective, its hard to communicate. For instance, I was
trying to convince an electrician that from an electrical potential
perspective, the neutral and ground were identical, barring a small
potential difference brought about by the resistance of the "grounding
neutral" wire that connects neutral in the switch box to earth ground. He
simply couldn't accept that they were the same in any way, even if the
measured potential difference were zero. To him, the neutral and the
'grounding neutral' had different jobs to do and, therefore, were different.
For him, one is the white wire and the other is not; ergo, different. The
fact that the copper of one was connected to the copper of the other made no
difference. There simply is not much room for deductive reasoning about
electrical realities in electrician's school, and, I guess, its better that
way.

Steve King


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Chris Warner
 
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How to answer this question, as I work with AC, electricans, and DC circuits
constantly I am trying to figure out how to answer this question the best.
First electrons only displace each other and move only a very small distance
with some situations being different(vacum tubes and spark gaps). DC the
elecrical potential is alwas postive when referenced to negative, which
means that electrons are always being pulled from a negative terminal to a
positive terminal. In AC electrons are pulled from the neutral and then
pushed towards the neutral. As an electrons move through a resistance(or
impedence) each point will drop the voltage, when the eventually reach
ground there is no more difference in potential.

Basic electroncs theory, hope I haven't missed anything. BTW if you are
reading voltage on a neutral(I saw someone mention this someplace) It means
that someone has screwed up in a circuit someplace. Rule of thumb with AC
is to carry one of those glow sticks I call em that light up when you wave
it close to a wire containing AC voltage. I have seen a situation when a
contractor had crossed a hot and neutral in the field, which game me 277(1
phase of 480 US) on the neutral referenced to ground.

Okay long post, later all.
"apa" wrote in message
om...
I was talking to an electrician doing some work in my building and
started asking some questions about AC. My electrical knowledge is
quite limited, but in the course of the conversation, I said something
about the the flow of current reversing direction twice every 60th of
a second. He said "No, the ACTUAL current always flows in one
direction from the hot to the neutral and it's the AMOUNT of current
flowing that alternates." Isn't that the definition of modulated DC,
not AC? I couldn't make any sense of his explanation of what he meant
by "actual current", but he insisted that current flows in ONE
DIRECTION ONLY. I really don't get what he's talking about - but he's
the professional. Can someone fill me in?



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.703 / Virus Database: 459 - Release Date: 6/13/2004


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Phil Allison
 
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Default


"Steve King" ...
"Phil Allison"



** He is using "electrician's logic".

The "hot" wire is the one with electricity in it because it can give

him
a
shock while the neutral has no electricity in it because it does not.
Therefore the electricity flows from the hot to the cold - just like

heat
does - in only one direction.

............ Phil


I have found that Electricians who have gone through the apprentice

schools
do, as Phil suggests, use a different way of describing the phenomenon of
electrical current flow. In several conversations with journeyman
electricians I've come to believe that their way of thinking about
electrical circuits serves them well for wiring buildings and adhering to
electrical codes. But, for those of us who learned our electrical theory
from an electonic perspective, its hard to communicate. For instance, I

was
trying to convince an electrician that from an electrical potential
perspective, the neutral and ground were identical, barring a small
potential difference brought about by the resistance of the "grounding
neutral" wire that connects neutral in the switch box to earth ground. He
simply couldn't accept that they were the same in any way, even if the
measured potential difference were zero. To him, the neutral and the
'grounding neutral' had different jobs to do and, therefore, were

different.
For him, one is the white wire and the other is not; ergo, different. The
fact that the copper of one was connected to the copper of the other made

no
difference. There simply is not much room for deductive reasoning about
electrical realities in electrician's school, and, I guess, its better

that
way.



** I have some sympathy for the electrician's position in this
stance - since the neutral conductor is a current carrying wire while the
safety earth (supposedly) is not. The independent and non conducting earth
wire is able to supply a barrier to electric shock that the neutral is
incapable of.

When dealing with appliances (of the plug in sort) neutral and active
are treated exactly the same for all safety and insulation requirements
since it is *so common* for them to become reversed or there to be no
continuity to supply neutral.




........... Phil





  #12   Report Post  
Scott Dorsey
 
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Default

touser wrote:
Is Neutral is the Center Tap of the 10:1 transformer secondary on the
power poll? 2200VAC to 220? So one side of that gives you 110 and to
wire a stove or dryer you use the whole tap? Just curious.


In this US, this is how standard 220V service works. Center tap goes
to neutral, and there are two 110V legs that are out of phase so there
is 220V between them.

There are still some houses wired for only one leg 110V service. This is
not used in new construction, however.

Also, if you are in the UK, like Don is, everything is different. Everything.
230V on each leg, circuits that double back to the panel at the end, fuses
in the appliance plugs. Very strange. But because the line voltage is so
much higher, required currents are much lower for the same power, so power
cabling is just tiny. Whenever I go to Europe I can't get over how small
everything is. It's really lovely.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #13   Report Post  
Don Pearce
 
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Default

On 17 Jun 2004 08:40:04 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

touser wrote:
Is Neutral is the Center Tap of the 10:1 transformer secondary on the
power poll? 2200VAC to 220? So one side of that gives you 110 and to
wire a stove or dryer you use the whole tap? Just curious.


In this US, this is how standard 220V service works. Center tap goes
to neutral, and there are two 110V legs that are out of phase so there
is 220V between them.

There are still some houses wired for only one leg 110V service. This is
not used in new construction, however.

Also, if you are in the UK, like Don is, everything is different. Everything.
230V on each leg, circuits that double back to the panel at the end, fuses
in the appliance plugs. Very strange. But because the line voltage is so
much higher, required currents are much lower for the same power, so power
cabling is just tiny. Whenever I go to Europe I can't get over how small
everything is. It's really lovely.
--scott


As you say, all appliance plugs are fused, but back at the
distribution box, all circuits have earth leakage breakers. The ring
main (doubling back as you describe it) is one of the best things that
ever happened to domestic wiring - no more lamps flickering and
dimming when high power appliances went on, clicks and pops a thing of
the past. No socket was at the far end of the line.

As for things being tiny - well not the domestic plug. You could
supply whole streets comfortably through a UK domestic 13 amp plug! It
scares me in the US to see those flimsy little things hanging
crookedly out of the wall, getting hot with some monstrous piece of
gear on the end.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
  #14   Report Post  
Mike Rivers
 
Posts: n/a
Default


In article writes:

I have found that Electricians who have gone through the apprentice schools
do, as Phil suggests, use a different way of describing the phenomenon of
electrical current flow. In several conversations with journeyman
electricians I've come to believe that their way of thinking about
electrical circuits serves them well for wiring buildings and adhering to
electrical codes. But, for those of us who learned our electrical theory
from an electonic perspective, its hard to communicate.


To an electrician, there's no functional difference between AC and DC,
and only specialized electricians today ever deal with DC, at least in
the USA. It's all "electricity" and the instantaneous direction of
motion of the electrons is of no concern to his job.

There is nothing wrong with this way of thinking. Knowing that the
current reversed direction many times a second doesn't help him to do
his job any better. But understanding that one wire is "hot" with
respect to a reference point (and being able to identify that wire
without killing himself or someone else) allows him to do the job he's
hired for - get the electricity from one place to another.

To him, the neutral and the
'grounding neutral' had different jobs to do and, therefore, were different.


This is true. Disconnecting the neutral from the ground at the service
entrance won't make the lights go out (if the house is wired properly)
but having it properly corrected may save a life.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  #19   Report Post  
Mike Clayton
 
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Default

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:

Not when one of the other sockets is heavily loaded - the problem
condition. With a ring main, every other socket on that ring becomes
electrically "nearer" the distribution box than the problem socket.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com


Don, Is there a reference I can look at to understand the UK way of power
distrubution?

As you know in NZ the system is Multiple Earth Neutral (MEN), which is
different from both the UK and the USA.

--
Mike Clayton
  #21   Report Post  
Roger W. Norman
 
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Default

The only thing I'd disagree with is that current flows, yes, but electrons
stay where they are. They excite the next molecule when polarized in one
direction by current, but electrons don't move down a line even in DC.
Otherwise all the electrons would ultimately go away and you'd no longer
have molecules of whatever the carrier is and no current would flow. In
other words, an electrical current would be a catalyst that would change the
atomic weight of a molecule in DC. In AC the electron simply excites the
next molecule's electron in a positive direction, and then a negative
direction, doing this 120 times a second in a two phase system, 180 times in
a three phase system.

I recall Stephen Paul (RIP) having what turned out to be a rather heated
discussion here about the fact that electrons don't actually flow, but a lot
of people either didn't get the discussion, or have this weird idea that
electrons jump from molecule to another in the direction of current. Even
if this were true, the best case is that an electron would be shared between
two molecules in AC generation. But, in fact, the initially excited
electron only jumps to an excited state within it's molecule (more enegetic
orbit), which excites the next molecule, and then it drops back to it's
"steady" state when power isn't flowing. The only difference is the
direction of the phase, meaning current flow.

The kicker is in the fact that, at absolute zero you get a halt in brownian
movement, and yet you also get absolutely no resistance to current flow,
which absolutely means that electrons aren't flowing down a copper wire.

For reference of Stephens somewhat rambling post, read
http://www.google.com/groups?q=elect...dio.com&rnum=2

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Brandon Anderson" wrote in message
...
Umm... Well, if you equate current to electrons, neither of you is

"right."
If you measure peak voltage, than he's right in one regard, the voltage

does
fluctuate. The electrons don't get a chance to go anywhere, really, as

the
polarity of the electric field keeps reversing. Think of it this way:

even
the ground has electrons. The electric field of the neutral

(theoretically)
is the same as the ground, leading to no electric potential between the

two
(ground does have a charge, but everything is relative to it). Hot,
however, has a potential relative to ground of 120v RMS (US). This is, in
one cycle the field goes 0 to (-)120 (can't remember the actual peak
voltage) to 0 to (+)120 to 0. When the cycle is negative, electrons move

a
short distance from the hot wire to the neutral. When it is positive, it
attracts electrons from the neutral to the hot. Now, on a good day it is
safe to handle a live neutral, but I've read 80v from a neutral before,

and
almost always get zapped.
Oh, the above holds true to single phase only. Dual phase is a little

more
complicated because it involves the interaction of two fields relative to
each other... And I don't trust electricians; been in too many situations
where I've been shocked by shabby work and end up fixing it myself. You'd
find a physics book more informative than your electrician for sure.

--

____________________________________

Brandon Anderson
Lighting, Sound, and Video

http://www.bdanderson.com/


"apa" wrote in message
om...
I was talking to an electrician doing some work in my building and
started asking some questions about AC. My electrical knowledge is
quite limited, but in the course of the conversation, I said something
about the the flow of current reversing direction twice every 60th of
a second. He said "No, the ACTUAL current always flows in one
direction from the hot to the neutral and it's the AMOUNT of current
flowing that alternates." Isn't that the definition of modulated DC,
not AC? I couldn't make any sense of his explanation of what he meant
by "actual current", but he insisted that current flows in ONE
DIRECTION ONLY. I really don't get what he's talking about - but he's
the professional. Can someone fill me in?





  #22   Report Post  
George
 
Posts: n/a
Default


The kicker is in the fact that, at absolute zero you get a halt in brownian
movement, and yet you also get absolutely no resistance to current flow,
which absolutely means that electrons aren't flowing down a copper wire.

so at absolute zero everything conducts ?
even glass and rubber?
George
  #23   Report Post  
Bryan Beasleigh
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I had been taught amongst other explainations that it's the
transmission of free holes and not the electron.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:58:07 -0400, "Roger W. Norman"
wrote:

The only thing I'd disagree with is that current flows, yes, but electrons
stay where they are. They excite the next molecule when polarized in one
direction by current, but electrons don't move down a line even in DC.
Otherwise all the electrons would ultimately go away and you'd no longer
have molecules of whatever the carrier is and no current would flow. In
other words, an electrical current would be a catalyst that would change the
atomic weight of a molecule in DC. In AC the electron simply excites the
next molecule's electron in a positive direction, and then a negative
direction, doing this 120 times a second in a two phase system, 180 times in
a three phase system.

I recall Stephen Paul (RIP) having what turned out to be a rather heated
discussion here about the fact that electrons don't actually flow, but a lot
of people either didn't get the discussion, or have this weird idea that
electrons jump from molecule to another in the direction of current. Even
if this were true, the best case is that an electron would be shared between
two molecules in AC generation. But, in fact, the initially excited
electron only jumps to an excited state within it's molecule (more enegetic
orbit), which excites the next molecule, and then it drops back to it's
"steady" state when power isn't flowing. The only difference is the
direction of the phase, meaning current flow.

The kicker is in the fact that, at absolute zero you get a halt in brownian
movement, and yet you also get absolutely no resistance to current flow,
which absolutely means that electrons aren't flowing down a copper wire.

For reference of Stephens somewhat rambling post, read
http://www.google.com/groups?q=elect...dio.com&rnum=2


  #24   Report Post  
Richard Crowley
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Bryan Beasleigh" wrote ...
I had been taught amongst other explainations that it's
the transmission of free holes and not the electron.


Anybody who has been on the Los Angeles "free"way
system during daylight hours knows exactly what "hole-
flow" is. :-)

Except that eventually you get to your destination in your
electron-vehicle while the copper atoms in the wire stay
put and just swap electrons in and out.


  #25   Report Post  
Roger W. Norman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Good question, but even if it doesn't, it doesn't mean that electrons flow
down a rubber cable! g

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"George" wrote in message
...

The kicker is in the fact that, at absolute zero you get a halt in

brownian
movement, and yet you also get absolutely no resistance to current flow,
which absolutely means that electrons aren't flowing down a copper wire.

so at absolute zero everything conducts ?
even glass and rubber?
George





  #26   Report Post  
Roger W. Norman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I take it you didn't read Stephen's explanation, although I have to admit,
you have to read the hole thing, mentally cut about 40% and then glue it all
together to see what he's talking about. Unfortunately, such a talented man
as Stephen was plagued with an extreme form of arthritus and endured a quite
few years of incredible pain along with the incumbent medication. But the
sheer genius of the man isn't in question with any of us who knew him and
talked to him regularly.

When it starts getting into quantum mechanics, I really start having a hard
time grasping some of the concepts. Superstring theory has been giving me a
headache for about the last 5 years. Electricity seems like it should be so
simple, but it still hurts when I grab a hot wire! g

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Bryan Beasleigh" wrote in message
...
I had been taught amongst other explainations that it's the
transmission of free holes and not the electron.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:58:07 -0400, "Roger W. Norman"
wrote:

The only thing I'd disagree with is that current flows, yes, but

electrons
stay where they are. They excite the next molecule when polarized in one
direction by current, but electrons don't move down a line even in DC.
Otherwise all the electrons would ultimately go away and you'd no longer
have molecules of whatever the carrier is and no current would flow. In
other words, an electrical current would be a catalyst that would change

the
atomic weight of a molecule in DC. In AC the electron simply excites the
next molecule's electron in a positive direction, and then a negative
direction, doing this 120 times a second in a two phase system, 180 times

in
a three phase system.

I recall Stephen Paul (RIP) having what turned out to be a rather heated
discussion here about the fact that electrons don't actually flow, but a

lot
of people either didn't get the discussion, or have this weird idea that
electrons jump from molecule to another in the direction of current.

Even
if this were true, the best case is that an electron would be shared

between
two molecules in AC generation. But, in fact, the initially excited
electron only jumps to an excited state within it's molecule (more

enegetic
orbit), which excites the next molecule, and then it drops back to it's
"steady" state when power isn't flowing. The only difference is the
direction of the phase, meaning current flow.

The kicker is in the fact that, at absolute zero you get a halt in

brownian
movement, and yet you also get absolutely no resistance to current flow,
which absolutely means that electrons aren't flowing down a copper wire.

For reference of Stephens somewhat rambling post, read


http://www.google.com/groups?q=elect...thor:Step hen

+author:Paul&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3A282138.8010102%40spaudio.com&rnum=2



  #27   Report Post  
Roger W. Norman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well, I have some old Romex and it has measurable 120 v AC on the metal
sheathing. Does that count? g I have to fix that one of these days, but
it's a 74 year old circuit and I really haven't seen much in terms of
problems unless you touch the ceiling fan light chain and the refrigerator
at the same time. Or the screws on the light switch box in the bathroom.
Ouch!

But I'm lazy and I know where the problem is. I just haven't fixed it yet.
Most people aren't walking around my house with no shoes and socks and going
into the bathroom, nor turning my fan lights on and off. Great as a
replacement for caffeine, though.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Chris Warner" wrote in message
news:ih9Ac.1679$u%3.337@fed1read04...
How to answer this question, as I work with AC, electricans, and DC

circuits
constantly I am trying to figure out how to answer this question the best.
First electrons only displace each other and move only a very small

distance
with some situations being different(vacum tubes and spark gaps). DC the
elecrical potential is alwas postive when referenced to negative, which
means that electrons are always being pulled from a negative terminal to a
positive terminal. In AC electrons are pulled from the neutral and then
pushed towards the neutral. As an electrons move through a resistance(or
impedence) each point will drop the voltage, when the eventually reach
ground there is no more difference in potential.

Basic electroncs theory, hope I haven't missed anything. BTW if you are
reading voltage on a neutral(I saw someone mention this someplace) It

means
that someone has screwed up in a circuit someplace. Rule of thumb with AC
is to carry one of those glow sticks I call em that light up when you wave
it close to a wire containing AC voltage. I have seen a situation when a
contractor had crossed a hot and neutral in the field, which game me 277(1
phase of 480 US) on the neutral referenced to ground.

Okay long post, later all.
"apa" wrote in message
om...
I was talking to an electrician doing some work in my building and
started asking some questions about AC. My electrical knowledge is
quite limited, but in the course of the conversation, I said something
about the the flow of current reversing direction twice every 60th of
a second. He said "No, the ACTUAL current always flows in one
direction from the hot to the neutral and it's the AMOUNT of current
flowing that alternates." Isn't that the definition of modulated DC,
not AC? I couldn't make any sense of his explanation of what he meant
by "actual current", but he insisted that current flows in ONE
DIRECTION ONLY. I really don't get what he's talking about - but he's
the professional. Can someone fill me in?



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.703 / Virus Database: 459 - Release Date: 6/13/2004




  #29   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Roger W. Norman"

The only thing I'd disagree with is that current flows, yes, but electrons
stay where they are.



** There is a slow but definite "electron drift speed" for a current in a
wire.

Do a search Google on that phrase and see.


They excite the next molecule when polarized in one
direction by current, but electrons don't move down a line even in DC.



** A DC current of 1 amp in a wire means that that ** 6.2 x 10 exp 18 **
electrons pass by a point in one second.



Otherwise all the electrons would ultimately go away and you'd no longer
have molecules of whatever the carrier is and no current would flow.



** A current only flows in a *continuous circuit* - hence so do electrons.
None are created or destroyed.



In other words, an electrical current would be a catalyst that would

change the
atomic weight of a molecule in DC.



** Childishly stupid.


In AC the electron simply excites the
next molecule's electron in a positive direction, and then a negative
direction, doing this 120 times a second in a two phase system, 180 times

in
a three phase system.



** There is no change in the frequency in multi phase power systems.


The kicker is in the fact that, at absolute zero you get a halt in

brownian
movement, and yet you also get absolutely no resistance to current flow,
which absolutely means that electrons aren't flowing down a copper wire.



** How completely asinine !!!

No resistance ( ie superconductivity) means the electrons flow with
perfect ease.


BTW Copper wire never becomes a superconductor, even at absolute zero.




.............. Phil




  #30   Report Post  
Bryan Beasleigh
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Have you ever looked into surgery?
Perhaps severing the connection of your optic nerve to your a$$hole
might cure that sh!tty outlook that you have .

There are several theories and all the math works on each one of them,
so who really cares.

Kill file time

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:04:31 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"Roger W. Norman"

The only thing I'd disagree with is that current flows, yes, but electrons
stay where they are.



** There is a slow but definite "electron drift speed" for a current in a
wire.

Do a search Google on that phrase and see.


They excite the next molecule when polarized in one
direction by current, but electrons don't move down a line even in DC.



** A DC current of 1 amp in a wire means that that ** 6.2 x 10 exp 18 **
electrons pass by a point in one second.



Otherwise all the electrons would ultimately go away and you'd no longer
have molecules of whatever the carrier is and no current would flow.



** A current only flows in a *continuous circuit* - hence so do electrons.
None are created or destroyed.



In other words, an electrical current would be a catalyst that would

change the
atomic weight of a molecule in DC.



** Childishly stupid.


In AC the electron simply excites the
next molecule's electron in a positive direction, and then a negative
direction, doing this 120 times a second in a two phase system, 180 times

in
a three phase system.



** There is no change in the frequency in multi phase power systems.


The kicker is in the fact that, at absolute zero you get a halt in

brownian
movement, and yet you also get absolutely no resistance to current flow,
which absolutely means that electrons aren't flowing down a copper wire.



** How completely asinine !!!

No resistance ( ie superconductivity) means the electrons flow with
perfect ease.


BTW Copper wire never becomes a superconductor, even at absolute zero.




............. Phil






  #31   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Bryan Beasleigh"

Have you ever looked into surgery?



** You should look into psychiatry, Bryan - from the prospective
consumers point of view.





............ Phil






  #32   Report Post  
Logan Shaw
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Phil Allison wrote:

"Bryan Beasleigh"

Have you ever looked into surgery?




** You should look into psychiatry, Bryan - from the prospective
consumers point of view.


OK, I can't stop myself from asking: do the asterisks mean anything?
Are they just decoration? Are they there for emphasis?

- ** Logan
  #33   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Logan Shaw"


OK, I can't stop myself from asking: do the asterisks mean anything?
Are they just decoration? Are they there for emphasis?



** They help to sort out my words from other folk's when the interleaving
gets a bit hairy.




............ Phil




  #34   Report Post  
Don Pearce
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:46:36 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"Logan Shaw"


OK, I can't stop myself from asking: do the asterisks mean anything?
Are they just decoration? Are they there for emphasis?



** They help to sort out my words from other folk's when the interleaving
gets a bit hairy.




........... Phil



Very thoughtful of you. It keeps me awake at night worrying that maybe
I can't find your posts among everybody else's. Drop the ego, and stop
screwing the threading - there are newsreaders that accept asterisks
at the start of a line as special meaning characters.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
  #35   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Don Pearce"
"Phil Allison"

"Logan Shaw"


OK, I can't stop myself from asking: do the asterisks mean anything?
Are they just decoration? Are they there for emphasis?


** They help to sort out my words from other folk's when the interleaving
gets a bit hairy.


Very thoughtful of you. It keeps me awake at night worrying that maybe
I can't find your posts among everybody else's.



** Having nightmares about it are you - Don ?????

Shame you have not got better things to worry about.



Drop the ego,



** How about *you* drop the arrogant pommy prick attitude - or is that
a calculated part of the Pearce panache ??



and stop screwing the threading - there are newsreaders that accept

asterisks
at the start of a line as special meaning characters.



** All my posts have "special meaning" - fancy a simple newsreader being
able to spot that.




................. Phil




  #36   Report Post  
Per Karlsson
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Brandon Anderson wondered:
So what is it that produces light when electricity arcs in a vacuum?


And what is it that causes electromigration* in integrated circuits?

* The process whereby copper or aluminum follows the current flow in
the very narrow wires on a chip, eventually causing opens.
  #37   Report Post  
S O'Neill
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Why are these necessary?


Phil Allison wrote:


** Childishly stupid.



** How completely asinine !!!




Wouldn't a simple "it's not like that", "you're mistaken" or something
else, work as well?


  #38   Report Post  
Don Pearce
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 23:32:09 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

** How about *you* drop the arrogant pommy prick attitude - or is that
a calculated part of the Pearce panache ??


Glad to see that racism is still alive and well back in the 19th
century.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
  #40   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"S O'Neill"
Why are these necessary?

Phil Allison wrote:

** Childishly stupid.


** How completely asinine !!!



Wouldn't a simple "it's not like that", "you're mistaken" or something
else, work as well?




** No.





............... Phil




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