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#1
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Comparing mic noise
I have a pair of mics that claim Equivalent Noise Level of 5dB-A.
Another mic claims 70dB Signal to noise ratio. How can I compare the noisiness of the two mics? Thanks, Tobiah |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Comparing mic noise
In article , Tobiah wrote:
I have a pair of mics that claim Equivalent Noise Level of 5dB-A. Another mic claims 70dB Signal to noise ratio. How can I compare the noisiness of the two mics? You cannot. The first number is actually a measurement of noise floor, but because it's A-weighted it's going to ignore all the low frequency noise (and that's primarily what you're going to have in a condenser microphone). The second number isn't a measurement of noise floor at all, but is a measurement of the _difference_ between the noise floor and the overload point at some unknown frequency. Neither one of these measurements is measuring what you want to know. They are measuring two different things, neither of which is what you want. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#3
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Comparing mic noise
On 7/13/2017 6:28 PM, Tobiah wrote:
I have a pair of mics that claim Equivalent Noise Level of 5dB-A. Another mic claims 70dB Signal to noise ratio. How can I compare the noisiness of the two mics? Hook them up to two channels of a preamp, bundle them up in a pile of pillows, put them in a quiet place, then listen to them. If you want to be studious about it, record the noise and look at it with a spectrum analyzer program. If you're going to do that, be sure to check the noise of the preamp first, with its input terminated with a nice quiet 150 ohm resistor. -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#4
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Comparing mic noise
On 7/13/17 4:07 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Tobiah wrote: I have a pair of mics that claim Equivalent Noise Level of 5dB-A. Another mic claims 70dB Signal to noise ratio. How can I compare the noisiness of the two mics? You cannot. The first number is actually a measurement of noise floor, but because it's A-weighted it's going to ignore all the low frequency noise (and that's primarily what you're going to have in a condenser microphone). The second number isn't a measurement of noise floor at all, but is a measurement of the _difference_ between the noise floor and the overload point at some unknown frequency. Neither one of these measurements is measuring what you want to know. They are measuring two different things, neither of which is what you want. --scott Still, couldn't an experienced individual give me some idea, given these incompatible statistics, what level of noise I might notice from one to the other. The one pair is Rode NT1-A, and the other is an Audio-Technica AT8010. I don't yet have the AT8010. I was just considering it. I'm trying to find any omni condenser that has a noise floor that is as close as I can get to the NT1-A's. Any other suggestions? Thanks, Tobiah |
#5
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Comparing mic noise
On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 7:40:23 PM UTC-4, Tobiah wrote:
On 7/13/17 4:07 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote: In article , Tobiah wrote: I have a pair of mics that claim Equivalent Noise Level of 5dB-A. Another mic claims 70dB Signal to noise ratio. How can I compare the noisiness of the two mics? You cannot. The first number is actually a measurement of noise floor, but because it's A-weighted it's going to ignore all the low frequency noise (and that's primarily what you're going to have in a condenser microphone). The second number isn't a measurement of noise floor at all, but is a measurement of the _difference_ between the noise floor and the overload point at some unknown frequency. Neither one of these measurements is measuring what you want to know. They are measuring two different things, neither of which is what you want. --scott Still, couldn't an experienced individual give me some idea, given these incompatible statistics, what level of noise I might notice from one to the other. The one pair is Rode NT1-A, and the other is an Audio-Technica AT8010. I don't yet have the AT8010. I was just considering it. I'm trying to find any omni condenser that has a noise floor that is as close as I can get to the NT1-A's. Any other suggestions? Thanks, Tobiah May I ask, why are you concerned with "noise"? I've listened to recordings from Pros and I hear magnetic tape and improper EMI shielding being the two MAJOR problems, not the microphones. Jack |
#6
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Comparing mic noise
On 7/13/2017 7:40 PM, Tobiah wrote:
Still, couldn't an experienced individual give me some idea, given these incompatible statistics, what level of noise I might notice from one to the other. The one pair is Rode NT1-A, and the other is an Audio-Technica AT8010. I don't yet have the AT8010. Oh, so you want to compare them based on published information, not actual performance. You should read my series about specifications published in Recording. The gist of the introduction is that manufacturers measure products any way they want to, and publish numbers that they think will look good to the customer even though they're relatively meaningless out of their own context. Neither of those specifications can tell you how many milivolts of noise you get out of the microphone when there's there's no sound going into it. What you want is a specification that says something like "Self-noise: -72 dBu (or 0.2 mV). But that's too simple and honest. -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Comparing mic noise
In article , Mike Rivers wrote:
What you want is a specification that says something like "Self-noise: -72 dBu (or 0.2 mV). But that's too simple and honest. There is in fact a push on the part of the AES standards committee SC-04-04 to actually create such a specification with a standard measurement method that would allow consistency between vendors. AT is one of those vendors, and their microphones among others were passed around the group comparing measurements. So, it IS possible that someday soon we'll have a standardized method that can be used for comparison. In the meantime, if you want a quiet mike, try the MKH-20. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#8
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Comparing mic noise
On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 21:45:31 -0400, Mike Rivers
wrote: On 7/13/2017 7:40 PM, Tobiah wrote: Still, couldn't an experienced individual give me some idea, given these incompatible statistics, what level of noise I might notice from one to the other. The one pair is Rode NT1-A, and the other is an Audio-Technica AT8010. I don't yet have the AT8010. Oh, so you want to compare them based on published information, not actual performance. You should read my series about specifications published in Recording. The gist of the introduction is that manufacturers measure products any way they want to, and publish numbers that they think will look good to the customer even though they're relatively meaningless out of their own context. Neither of those specifications can tell you how many milivolts of noise you get out of the microphone when there's there's no sound going into it. What you want is a specification that says something like "Self-noise: -72 dBu (or 0.2 mV). But that's too simple and honest. That isn't what you want either. The 5dBA figure is much more valuable than a simple level with no sensitivity reference to compare it to. What I do know is that it is a long time since mic noise was actually an issue. Noisy preamps like RNP are much more where the problem lies. I use an NT1-A and I can confirm that it is an extremely quiet mic. What noise it is, as Scott says, is at the bottom end, and most situations where you need the low noise figure are going to be ones where you are in any case going to roll the bottom end back because you are up close. d --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Comparing mic noise
Tobiah wrote:
Still, couldn't an experienced individual give me some idea, given these incompatible statistics, what level of noise I might notice from one to the other. The one pair is Rode NT1-A, and the other is an Audio-Technica AT8010. ** The AT8010 has a noise spec of " 70dB, 1kHz at 1 Pa" 1 Pascal = 94dB SPL. So the self noise of the AT is 24dB at 1kHz. Pretty poor, even for an electret mic. ...... Phil |
#10
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Comparing mic noise
Don Pearce wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 21:45:31 -0400, Mike Rivers wrote: .... What you want is a specification that says something like "Self-noise: -72 dBu (or 0.2 mV). But that's too simple and honest. That isn't what you want either. The 5dBA figure is much more valuable than a simple level with no sensitivity reference to compare it to. Perhaps a figure for the equivalent noise in dBC, so it takes account of the L.F. noise too? -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
#12
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Comparing mic noise
Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
--------------------- That isn't what you want either. The 5dBA figure is much more valuable than a simple level with no sensitivity reference to compare it to. Perhaps a figure for the equivalent noise in dBC, so it takes account of the L.F. noise too? ** The ear is very insensitive to low frequencies at low SPLs - so using the A curve is appropriate for condenser mic self noise when used for general music and speech applications. Dynamic mics have self noise that increases steadily as the frequency rises, cos it is white noise - very different to the pink or red like noise externally polarised condenser mics generate. ..... Phil |
#13
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Comparing mic noise
On 14/07/2017 6:14 PM, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Don Pearce wrote: On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 21:45:31 -0400, Mike Rivers wrote: ... What you want is a specification that says something like "Self-noise: -72 dBu (or 0.2 mV). But that's too simple and honest. That isn't what you want either. The 5dBA figure is much more valuable than a simple level with no sensitivity reference to compare it to. Perhaps a figure for the equivalent noise in dBC, so it takes account of the L.F. noise too? Far better an unweighted figure and a spectral plot. Trevor. |
#14
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Comparing mic noise
Don Pearce wrote:
What I do know is that it is a long time since mic noise was actually an issue. Noisy preamps like RNP are much more where the problem lies. I use an NT1-A and I can confirm that it is an extremely quiet mic. What noise it is, as Scott says, is at the bottom end, and most situations where you need the low noise figure are going to be ones where you are in any case going to roll the bottom end back because you are up close. For the most part this is true. But someday you're going to need to record a clavichord in a quiet room, and then you're going to be glad as hell that the MKH-20 exists. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#15
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Comparing mic noise
In the meantime, if you want a quiet mike, try the MKH-20.
--scott For too expensive for me. The AT I was looking at was $100. Any other suggestions for a quiet omni for less, maybe 2-3 hundred? Thanks |
#16
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Comparing mic noise
On 7/14/2017 11:11 AM, Tobiah wrote:
other suggestions for a quiet omni for less, maybe 2-3 hundred? "quiet omni" isn't very descriptive. What are you recording, with what preamp, and what's the setup? Are we talking Foley quiet here? Qrchestra in a concert hall quiet? Or the beehive in your back yard? -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Comparing mic noise
In article , Tobiah wrote:
In the meantime, if you want a quiet mike, try the MKH-20. For too expensive for me. The AT I was looking at was $100. Any other suggestions for a quiet omni for less, maybe 2-3 hundred? A used AT 4049. The problem is that most of your choices in that price range are going to wind up using capsules with cheap integral fets. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#18
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Comparing mic noise
On 07/14/2017 10:40 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Tobiah wrote: In the meantime, if you want a quiet mike, try the MKH-20. For too expensive for me. The AT I was looking at was $100. Any other suggestions for a quiet omni for less, maybe 2-3 hundred? A used AT 4049. The problem is that most of your choices in that price range are going to wind up using capsules with cheap integral fets. --scott I see a 4049a and 4049b. |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Comparing mic noise
In article , Tobiah wrote:
On 07/14/2017 10:40 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: In article , Tobiah wrote: In the meantime, if you want a quiet mike, try the MKH-20. For too expensive for me. The AT I was looking at was $100. Any other suggestions for a quiet omni for less, maybe 2-3 hundred? A used AT 4049. The problem is that most of your choices in that price range are going to wind up using capsules with cheap integral fets. I see a 4049a and 4049b. The first was discontinued in favor of the second. I don't know how different the noise floor is but they are very close to the same mike and either one would be fine. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#20
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Comparing mic noise
On 07/14/2017 11:31 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Tobiah wrote: On 07/14/2017 10:40 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: In article , Tobiah wrote: In the meantime, if you want a quiet mike, try the MKH-20. For too expensive for me. The AT I was looking at was $100. Any other suggestions for a quiet omni for less, maybe 2-3 hundred? A used AT 4049. The problem is that most of your choices in that price range are going to wind up using capsules with cheap integral fets. I see a 4049a and 4049b. The first was discontinued in favor of the second. I don't know how different the noise floor is but they are very close to the same mike and either one would be fine. --scott How about the AT8010. I can get one for a better price. Toby |
#21
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Comparing mic noise
On 14 Jul 2017 09:04:19 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Don Pearce wrote: What I do know is that it is a long time since mic noise was actually an issue. Noisy preamps like RNP are much more where the problem lies. I use an NT1-A and I can confirm that it is an extremely quiet mic. What noise it is, as Scott says, is at the bottom end, and most situations where you need the low noise figure are going to be ones where you are in any case going to roll the bottom end back because you are up close. For the most part this is true. But someday you're going to need to record a clavichord in a quiet room, and then you're going to be glad as hell that the MKH-20 exists. --scott It is very quiet, but I find it has this strange mid-range wobble that is quite hard to eq away. d --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#22
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Comparing mic noise
Don Pearce wrote:
Kludge writes: But someday you're going to need to record a clavichord in a quiet room, and then you're going to be glad as hell that the MKH-20 exists. It is very quiet, but I find it has this strange mid-range wobble that is quite hard to eq away. Yes, you don't get something for nothing. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#23
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Comparing mic noise
In article , Tobiah wrote:
How about the AT8010. I can get one for a better price. Never used one or had one on the bench so I can't say. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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