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a-l a-l is offline
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i noticed that the rca 44 mic goes up to about 10k. correct? not sure how
low it goes. and it is regarded as one of the great sounding classic mics. i
had read that les paul loved this on guitar and this makes alot of sense.
however i'm wondering about this type of curve on a variety of other
instruments.

there are also some very inexpensive electrets that have a similar curve...
i am not talking about quality of sound just the basic curves

what is the difference in sound between electret and condensor microphones?

can you approximate the curves of these mics with a high and low pass
filter?

ive been noticing recently that there are some situations that i like a
limited freq range... dumbing it down seems to be working

does anyone here intentionally use really cheap mics with high end preamps
to attain a sound, or vice versa high quality mics with intentionally low
quality preamps







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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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a-l wrote:
i noticed that the rca 44 mic goes up to about 10k. correct? not sure how
low it goes. and it is regarded as one of the great sounding classic mics. i
had read that les paul loved this on guitar and this makes alot of sense.
however i'm wondering about this type of curve on a variety of other
instruments.


"goes up to" is meaningless. Look at an actual plot. The 44B doesn't have
a lot of usable response up in the top octave, but it has some and it the
response curve is very ragged up on the top end.

there are also some very inexpensive electrets that have a similar curve...
i am not talking about quality of sound just the basic curves


No, they don't. Look for a narrowband curve on some cheap electrets and
you will see that they are ragged but very different than the raggedness
of the 44B.

Also, of course, the frequency response tells you very little about what
the mike sounds like... an impulse response or a waterfall plot would do
a lot better to actually show you something useful.

what is the difference in sound between electret and condensor microphones?


Electret mikes are condenser mikes. The sound has nothing to do with
whether the capsule is externally polarized or not.

can you approximate the curves of these mics with a high and low pass
filter?


Maybe if you had a filter bank with a few hundred narrowband filters so
you could emulate every peak and dip.

But it wouldn't do you any good, because in the case of the 44B, the
peaks and dips all move around as you move around in front of the mike.
And you wouldn't be necessarily emulating the impulse response of the mike
anyway.

ive been noticing recently that there are some situations that i like a
limited freq range... dumbing it down seems to be working


So get a bag of 635As, some ribbon mikes, and play around. Get a good cabinet
of microphones, get to know how they sound, and then pick the microphone
that gives the sound you want.

does anyone here intentionally use really cheap mics with high end preamps
to attain a sound, or vice versa high quality mics with intentionally low
quality preamps


What is high quality and what is low quality? Lots of folks use the SM57
and the EV 635A because they like the way they sound, when they have lots
of other choices.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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a-l wrote:
i noticed that the rca 44 mic goes up to about 10k. correct?


That's about right.

I had read that les paul loved this on guitar and this makes alot of sense.


Sure. It was about the best microphone, and about the only decent
quality microphone around when Les Paul started recording. And there's
practically nothing coming out of a guitar amplifier above about 5 kHz.

however i'm wondering about this type of curve on a variety of other
instruments.


The mic is a mic. The instrument is an instrument. They should
compliment each other.

there are also some very inexpensive electrets that have a similar curve...
i am not talking about quality of sound just the basic curves

what is the difference in sound between electret and condensor microphones?


An electret is a kind of element used in a condenser mic. They used be
the cheap condenser mics but today there are some very good sounding
mics that use an electret rather than externally polarizing the
capacitor element.

can you approximate the curves of these mics with a high and low pass
filter?


Sure, and maybe with a little adjustable midrange equalization. Curves
are mostly generated by the marketing department and don't very well
represent how a mic is going to sound in a particular application.

ive been noticing recently that there are some situations that i like a
limited freq range... dumbing it down seems to be working


That's a useful mixing technique to allow you to use things in a mix
that would naturally fight each other for their piece of the spectrum.

does anyone here intentionally use really cheap mics with high end preamps
to attain a sound, or vice versa high quality mics with intentionally low
quality preamps


Not usually. But experimentation is a wonderful thing. If you got stuff
that you're not using and you're looking for a different sound than
you're getting, it never hurts to try unexpected combinations.

But don't go out and buy a cheap mic or a great preamp just because you
read about the combination on a newsgroup. Whatever worked for someone
else probably isn't going to work for you.

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Roy W. Rising Roy W. Rising is offline
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"a-l" wrote:

ive been noticing recently that there are some situations that i like a
limited freq range... dumbing it down seems to be working

Scott Dorsey's and Mike Rivers' answers pretty well cover the turf.

Let me add an interesting "rule of thumb" for limited frequency range:
Multiplying the LF and HF -3dB numbers should come out to about 600,000.
For example 30Hz to 20KHz = 600,000. In the days of 5KHz Telco loops, we
would use a 120Hz high-pass. The result? A natural sounding bass-treble
balance. Small box radios and TVs that can't produce much below 100Hz
benefit from a 6KHz low pass.

--
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"
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"Let me add an interesting "rule of thumb" for limited frequency range:
Multiplying the LF and HF -3dB numbers should come out to about 600,000.
For example 30Hz to 20KHz = 600,000. In the days of 5KHz Telco loops, we
would use a 120Hz high-pass. The result? A natural sounding bass-treble
balance. Small box radios and TVs that can't produce much below 100Hz
benefit from a 6KHz low pass.
---------------------------------

????

please explain how you go from 600,000 to 120 hz





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Richard Kuschel Richard Kuschel is offline
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a-l wrote:
"Let me add an interesting "rule of thumb" for limited frequency range:
Multiplying the LF and HF -3dB numbers should come out to about 600,000.
For example 30Hz to 20KHz = 600,000. In the days of 5KHz Telco loops, we
would use a 120Hz high-pass. The result? A natural sounding bass-treble
balance. Small box radios and TVs that can't produce much below 100Hz
benefit from a 6KHz low pass.
---------------------------------

????

please explain how you go from 600,000 to 120 hz



I never heard of this rule of thumb before, but--

I get it. So 120 X 5000 equals 600,000 and if a telephone is
200Hz-3kHz it still = 600,000

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Richard Kuschel wrote:

I never heard of this rule of thumb before, but--

I get it. So 120 X 5000 equals 600,000 and if a telephone is
200Hz-3kHz it still = 600,000


Right. There's actually a paper on the subject from the BSTJ some time in
the 1930s. I will see if I can find a citation on it. But the notion is
that for the response to be subjectively "balanced," whatever is lost on
the top needs to be balanced with a corresponding loss on the bottom and
vice-versa. Note that once you get beyond 10KC or so, this becomes less
and less the case, and the original paper was entirely about voice reproduction.
Still it's a good rule of thumb.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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So get a bag of 635As, some ribbon mikes, and play around. Get a good
cabinet
of microphones, get to know how they sound, and then pick the microphone
that gives the sound you want.


thanks for the 635 suggestion. theres a host of other ev omni dynamics as
well, why the 635 over these.


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bill bill is offline
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a-l wrote:
So get a bag of 635As, some ribbon mikes, and play around. Get a good
cabinet
of microphones, get to know how they sound, and then pick the microphone
that gives the sound you want.


thanks for the 635 suggestion. theres a host of other ev omni dynamics as
well, why the 635 over these.


This may be off topic a bit, but what is the best microphone for
listening to outside nature? I would like to put one in a tree on my
property that is usually full of birds and be able to record them onto
my hard drive via my sound card input. I have a stereo input but would
like to just use one mike if at all possible. The last time I tried
something like this I took (get ready) a speaker out of an old tube
radio that had the matching transformer on it. The transformer was meant
to translate the 5K plate to the 8ohm speaker but worked just as well in
reverse, giving me a hum proof isolated 5K to input into my standalone,
ah, Radio Shack pre-amp. So far it is just junk I have laying around,
and did work well in the past, but I have lost the speaker/transformer
combo and don't have a broken tube radio to kill for parts.
Ideas?

--
Bill (Sleepless biker) Baka
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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bill wrote:

This may be off topic a bit, but what is the best microphone for
listening to outside nature? I would like to put one in a tree on my
property that is usually full of birds and be able to record them onto
my hard drive via my sound card input.


A waterproof dynamic mic. An EV 635 with a condom over it would
probably work pretty well. Hopefully your sound card has a balanced
input so you can avoid the mic cable acting like an antenna.

The speaker trick is pretty clever, but when used as a microphone, it
probably doesn't have very good high frequency response. Birds don't
sing bass.



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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"Richard Kuschel" wrote in message
oups.com...

a-l wrote:
"Let me add an interesting "rule of thumb" for limited frequency range:
Multiplying the LF and HF -3dB numbers should come out to about 600,000.
For example 30Hz to 20KHz = 600,000. In the days of 5KHz Telco loops, we
would use a 120Hz high-pass. The result? A natural sounding bass-treble
balance. Small box radios and TVs that can't produce much below 100Hz
benefit from a 6KHz low pass.
---------------------------------

????

please explain how you go from 600,000 to 120 hz


I never heard of this rule of thumb before, but--


I get it. So 120 X 5000 equals 600,000 and if a telephone is
200Hz-3kHz it still = 600,000


IME, tt's been around forever. I remember finding it in some consumer audio
handbooks from the 50s and 60s. I think you'll find it in ancient texts like
Tremain's audio handbook and the Radiotron designer's handbook.

The basic idea is that the ear seems to be more comfortable with a balance
of energy around some point in the midrange.

If the bass cutoff goes too low for the given treble cutoff, then things
sound bass-heavy and, vice-versa.

I think that this balanced energy theory starts to fall apart when bandwidth
goes so low or so high that the ear and music sources start introduce
roll-offs of their own. Then, you're not specing the strong contributors to
perceived sonic balance with system performance parameters.

IOW, if you have a system that goes flat down to 3 Hz it probably won't
reproduce a lot more music-related energy on the low side, than one that
cuts off at 30 Hz, unless you have an atypical music source.

Also, the ear rolls off pretty fast below 100 Hz and above 10 KHz.

In the 50s and 60s lots of consumers were still struggling to get smooth,
clean, response below say 150 Hz, and above 8 KHz. Based on recordings from
those times, many production people were also struggling.


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bill bill is offline
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Mike Rivers wrote:
bill wrote:

This may be off topic a bit, but what is the best microphone for
listening to outside nature? I would like to put one in a tree on my
property that is usually full of birds and be able to record them onto
my hard drive via my sound card input.


A waterproof dynamic mic. An EV 635 with a condom over it would
probably work pretty well. Hopefully your sound card has a balanced
input so you can avoid the mic cable acting like an antenna.

The speaker trick is pretty clever, but when used as a microphone, it
probably doesn't have very good high frequency response. Birds don't
sing bass.

You are right about the bass, and a bare speaker does pick up the wind
pretty good. What was strange about that setup was that a bug crawling
on the speaker surface was LOUD.

--
Bill (Sleepless biker) Baka
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Richard Crowley Richard Crowley is offline
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"bill" wrote ...
You are right about the bass, and a bare speaker does pick up the wind
pretty good. What was strange about that setup was that a bug crawling
on the speaker surface was LOUD.


You may be on to something there (for insects, at least).
But doesn't seem very well-suited for birds. What about
an ordinary (and ultra-cheap) electret mic capsule in some
sort of weather-resistant enclosure like those louvered
little round housings they use for weather station thermal
sensors?

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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a-l wrote:
So get a bag of 635As, some ribbon mikes, and play around. Get a good
cabinet
of microphones, get to know how they sound, and then pick the microphone
that gives the sound you want.


thanks for the 635 suggestion. theres a host of other ev omni dynamics as
well, why the 635 over these.


Because all the others have been discontinued, except for the RE-50 which
is a 635A with better shockmounting.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Roy W. Rising Roy W. Rising is offline
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"a-l" wrote:
So get a bag of 635As, some ribbon mikes, and play around. Get a good
cabinet of microphones, get to know how they sound, and then pick the
microphone that gives the sound you want.


thanks for the 635 suggestion. theres a host of other ev omni dynamics as
well, why the 635 over these.


I don't think you'll be able to find many EV 635s. ;-) The 635A has been
a "best seller" for 40 years. It is "tailored" (top and bottom) for voice
and, in the field, excludes some of the sounds of nature that aren't needed
in news reports.

If you want amazing frequency range and accuracy, try to locate an EV RE55,
DO54 or PL9. These share the same dynamic element, the RE55 is twice as
long to deliver better LF performance. Unless you want to record
earthquakes, the shorter DO54 or PL9 will serve you quite well.

Also, using a condom for moisture protection really corrupts the sound.
I'd consider a large open-cell foam sock that can be wrung out when the
rain gets too serious. I've known EV 642s to have been doused by ocean
waves, rinsed thoroughly in tap water and dried, resulting in "as new"
performance!

--
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"


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Richard Crowley wrote:
"bill" wrote ...
You are right about the bass, and a bare speaker does pick up the wind
pretty good. What was strange about that setup was that a bug crawling
on the speaker surface was LOUD.


You may be on to something there (for insects, at least).
But doesn't seem very well-suited for birds. What about
an ordinary (and ultra-cheap) electret mic capsule in some
sort of weather-resistant enclosure like those louvered
little round housings they use for weather station thermal
sensors?


I'm collecting ideas right now. The speaker did kind of roll off the
birds but I could hear trucks and trains for miles, even farther than
with my own ears. A 4" speaker does seem to be kind of optimum around
200-400 Hz. I put a pre-emphasis network on it and it wasn't too
terribly bad.

--
Bill (Sleepless biker) Baka
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bill wrote:
The speaker did kind of roll off the
birds but I could hear trucks and trains for miles, even farther than
with my own ears. A 4" speaker does seem to be kind of optimum around
200-400 Hz.


A local sound company built some long throw (very directional) horn
cabinetss, and to test them out, pointed them off the back deck of
their building, across a field, and out to a major highway, a distance
of about a quarter of a mile. Someone from the company drove down the
highway while they were playing music through the speakers to get an
idea of the directivity pattern. Then they got the idea to hook one up
to a mixer mic input (this was before anyone had "mic preamps") and
listen to what they were picking up. They could hear radios in the cars
going by.

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Roy W. Rising wrote:

I don't think you'll be able to find many EV 635s. ;-) The 635A has been
a "best seller" for 40 years.


Picky, picky, but you're right. These days, someone is sure to ask: "I
was told to look for a 635. I found a 635A for a good price. Will it
affect my sound quality?"

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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Roy W. Rising wrote:

I don't think you'll be able to find many EV 635s. ;-) The 635A has been
a "best seller" for 40 years.


Picky, picky, but you're right. These days, someone is sure to ask: "I
was told to look for a 635. I found a 635A for a good price. Will it
affect my sound quality?"

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bill bill is offline
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Mike Rivers wrote:
bill wrote:
The speaker did kind of roll off the
birds but I could hear trucks and trains for miles, even farther than
with my own ears. A 4" speaker does seem to be kind of optimum around
200-400 Hz.


A local sound company built some long throw (very directional) horn
cabinetss, and to test them out, pointed them off the back deck of
their building, across a field, and out to a major highway, a distance
of about a quarter of a mile. Someone from the company drove down the
highway while they were playing music through the speakers to get an
idea of the directivity pattern. Then they got the idea to hook one up
to a mixer mic input (this was before anyone had "mic preamps") and
listen to what they were picking up. They could hear radios in the cars
going by.

Sounds right. I got crazy around 1989 and tried mounting one in a snow
dish and managed to make a pretty good poor man's directional pickup.

--
Bill (Sleepless biker) Baka


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Ron Capik Ron Capik is offline
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Mike Rivers wrote:

bill wrote:
The speaker did kind of roll off the
birds but I could hear trucks and trains for miles, even farther than
with my own ears. A 4" speaker does seem to be kind of optimum around
200-400 Hz.


A local sound company built some long throw (very directional) horn
cabinetss, and to test them out, pointed them off the back deck of
their building, across a field, and out to a major highway, a distance
of about a quarter of a mile. Someone from the company drove down the
highway while they were playing music through the speakers to get an
idea of the directivity pattern. Then they got the idea to hook one up
to a mixer mic input (this was before anyone had "mic preamps") and
listen to what they were picking up. They could hear radios in the cars
going by.


I can do you one better than that. The guys that discovered the big bang
residue found that with their big microwave horn they could clearly hear
kids playing in a school yard in a town some 12 miles away.


Later...

Ron Capik
--


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bill bill is offline
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Ron Capik wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote:

bill wrote:
The speaker did kind of roll off the
birds but I could hear trucks and trains for miles, even farther than
with my own ears. A 4" speaker does seem to be kind of optimum around
200-400 Hz.

A local sound company built some long throw (very directional) horn
cabinetss, and to test them out, pointed them off the back deck of
their building, across a field, and out to a major highway, a distance
of about a quarter of a mile. Someone from the company drove down the
highway while they were playing music through the speakers to get an
idea of the directivity pattern. Then they got the idea to hook one up
to a mixer mic input (this was before anyone had "mic preamps") and
listen to what they were picking up. They could hear radios in the cars
going by.


I can do you one better than that. The guys that discovered the big bang
residue found that with their big microwave horn they could clearly hear
kids playing in a school yard in a town some 12 miles away.


Later...

Ron Capik
--


That just beat the heck out of my snow 3' dish and speaker.
12 miles is pretty darn impressive.

--
Bill (Sleepless biker) Baka
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Roy W. Rising Roy W. Rising is offline
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"Mike Rivers" wrote:
bill wrote:
The speaker did kind of roll off the
birds but I could hear trucks and trains for miles, even farther than
with my own ears. A 4" speaker does seem to be kind of optimum around
200-400 Hz.


A local sound company ... Then they got the idea to hook one up
to a mixer mic input (this was before anyone had "mic preamps") ...


The venerable RCA OP-6 was called a Remote Amp. It had mic-level input and
true line-level out able to drive a Telco line. There was a real VU meter
and a real variable attenuator on the front. It dates back 50 years or
more. And ... it used real "fire bottles" in a VERY quiet circuit design.

--
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"
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Agent 86 Agent 86 is offline
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On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 08:34:45 -0700, Mike Rivers wrote:


Roy W. Rising wrote:

I don't think you'll be able to find many EV 635s. ;-) The 635A has been
a "best seller" for 40 years.


Picky, picky, but you're right. These days, someone is sure to ask: "I
was told to look for a 635. I found a 635A for a good price. Will it
affect my sound quality?"


Last time I ordered a 635A they sent me a 635A/B instead. I found it a
lot darker g


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