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#81
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Sander deWaal" wrote in message "Clyde Slick" said: His name is Mike McKelvey. No it isn't. did I spell it wrong? Yep. It's Michael McKelvy. So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and Art all ganging up on Mike and agreeing that he's an idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more for some of them. Arny's first lie of the day concerning me. I in no way "ganged up" on Mike. I simply and politely asked him his name, because I didn't want to use the silly "put down" names that are used here. Once again, no good deed left unpunished by you. Stop lying. Not at all. You quite clearly agreed with a post by Art that accused him of "having his thong in a bunch" Here's the reference: You should be more careful about what you agree with, Jenn. At the very least you should edit out the things you don't agree with. Incorrect, yet again. I didn't AGREE with the "thong in a bunch" comment, I WROTE it. And that is not "ganging up on him". Rather it was a comment on the mood of his posts at that moment. |
#82
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"Arny Krueger" said:
So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and Art all ganging up on Mike and agreeing that he's an idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more for some of them. Arny's first lie of the day concerning me. I in no way "ganged up" on Mike. I simply and politely asked him his name, because I didn't want to use the silly "put down" names that are used here. Once again, no good deed left unpunished by you. Stop lying. Not at all. You quite clearly agreed with a post by Art that accused him of "having his thong in a bunch" Here's the reference: You should be more careful about what you agree with, Jenn. At the very least you should edit out the things you don't agree with. So saying "geez Mike, having your thong in a bunch?" actually means "agreeing that he is an idiot"? Only on planet Krueger, I suppose? ;-) Besides, Art didn't say that, Jenn did. Get yer facts straight, mr. Krueger! -- - Never argue with idiots, they drag you down their level and beat you with experience. - |
#83
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
In article ,
Sander deWaal wrote: Jenn said: "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Sander deWaal" wrote: "Clyde Slick" said: did I spell it wrong? Yep. It's Michael McKelvy. So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and Art all ganging up on Mike and agreeing that he's an idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more for some of them. Arny's first lie of the day concerning me. I in no way "ganged up" on Mike. I simply and politely asked him his name, because I didn't want to use the silly "put down" names that are used here. Once again, no good deed left unpunished by you. Stop lying. To make matters worse, the only person using the word "idiot" is the person Arny claims is getting abused. Follow the attributions: beginquote-------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- wrote in message oups.com... Clyde Slick wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message ... In article .com, " wrote: Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Geeze Mike; your thong in a bunch tonight? (Your name is Mike, isn't it? I've only seen derivatives of it here, and I don't care to participate in that. If I have your name wrong, sorry.) His name is Mike McKelvey. No it isn't. did I spell it wrong? Exactly. And when I asked Mike if he had his "thong in a bunch" because he called someone an idiot, that is called "ganging up" by Arny. LOL |
#84
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
Jenn said:
Exactly. And when I asked Mike if he had his "thong in a bunch" because he called someone an idiot, that is called "ganging up" by Arny. LOL Yes, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Watching Arny being more and more disconnected from reality each day is not a pretty sight. -- - Never argue with idiots, they drag you down their level and beat you with experience. - |
#85
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"Jenn" wrote in message
In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Sander deWaal" wrote in message "Clyde Slick" said: His name is Mike McKelvey. No it isn't. did I spell it wrong? Yep. It's Michael McKelvy. So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and Art all ganging up on Mike and agreeing that he's an idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more for some of them. Arny's first lie of the day concerning me. I in no way "ganged up" on Mike. I simply and politely asked him his name, because I didn't want to use the silly "put down" names that are used here. Once again, no good deed left unpunished by you. Stop lying. Not at all. You quite clearly agreed with a post by Art that accused him of "having his thong in a bunch" Here's the reference: You should be more careful about what you agree with, Jenn. At the very least you should edit out the things you don't agree with. Incorrect, yet again. I didn't AGREE with the "thong in a bunch" comment, I WROTE it. And that is not "ganging up on him". Rather it was a comment on the mood of his posts at that moment. Oh yeah, "I'm not insulting him, I'm just describing him". Any neutral observer should be laughing his butt off at this thread. His (printable) response might be: "Pot:kettle:black" |
#86
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Sander deWaal" wrote in message "Clyde Slick" said: His name is Mike McKelvey. No it isn't. did I spell it wrong? Yep. It's Michael McKelvy. So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and Art all ganging up on Mike and agreeing that he's an idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more for some of them. Arny's first lie of the day concerning me. I in no way "ganged up" on Mike. I simply and politely asked him his name, because I didn't want to use the silly "put down" names that are used here. Once again, no good deed left unpunished by you. Stop lying. Not at all. You quite clearly agreed with a post by Art that accused him of "having his thong in a bunch" Here's the reference: You should be more careful about what you agree with, Jenn. At the very least you should edit out the things you don't agree with. Incorrect, yet again. I didn't AGREE with the "thong in a bunch" comment, I WROTE it. And that is not "ganging up on him". Rather it was a comment on the mood of his posts at that moment. Oh yeah, "I'm not insulting him, I'm just describing him". Any neutral observer should be laughing his butt off at this thread. His (printable) response might be: "Pot:kettle:black" Indeed, the observer should be laughing; laughing at the fact that a "thong in a bunch" comment to someone calling another person an IDIOT should be viewed by someone as "ganging up". |
#87
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
news Jenn said: Exactly. And when I asked Mike if he had his "thong in a bunch" because he called someone an idiot, that is called "ganging up" by Arny. LOL Yes, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Watching Arny being more and more disconnected from reality each day is not a pretty sight. No insult taken, Sander. It's just the old "My opponent is emotionally disturbed" debating trade ruse. |
#88
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"Jenn" wrote in message ... In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Sander deWaal" wrote in message "Clyde Slick" said: His name is Mike McKelvey. No it isn't. did I spell it wrong? Yep. It's Michael McKelvy. So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and Art all ganging up on Mike and agreeing that he's an idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more for some of them. Arny's first lie of the day concerning me. I in no way "ganged up" on Mike. I simply and politely asked him his name, because I didn't want to use the silly "put down" names that are used here. Once again, no good deed left unpunished by you. Stop lying. Not at all. You quite clearly agreed with a post by Art that accused him of "having his thong in a bunch" Here's the reference: You should be more careful about what you agree with, Jenn. At the very least you should edit out the things you don't agree with. Incorrect, yet again. I didn't AGREE with the "thong in a bunch" comment, I WROTE it. And that is not "ganging up on him". Rather it was a comment on the mood of his posts at that moment. And it was a mild but accurate description of his posts at the moment. I was more or less wondering the same thing. |
#89
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"Arny Krueger" said:
Yes, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Watching Arny being more and more disconnected from reality each day is not a pretty sight. No insult taken, Sander. Good, because that was not intended. I merely feel sorry for you. It's just the old "My opponent is emotionally disturbed" debating trade ruse. I can't go around saying in every post that I'm half a madman myself, no? I expect that to be well known and a prerequisite when reading my posts ;-) -- - Never argue with idiots, they drag you down their level and beat you with experience. - |
#90
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
KuckooKrazyBorg whined: It's just the old "My opponent is emotionally disturbed" debating trade ruse. Correction, Turdy: Nobody has said you are "emotionally disturbed". The phrase we'd all agree on is "mentally unbalanced". Let me know if you need help figuring out the difference. |
#91
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Sander deWaal" wrote in message "Clyde Slick" said: His name is Mike McKelvey. No it isn't. did I spell it wrong? Yep. It's Michael McKelvy. So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and Art all ganging up on Mike and agreeing that he's an idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more for some of them. Heartwarming or what? ;-) And where does it say that? -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
#92
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Sander deWaal" wrote in message "Clyde Slick" said: His name is Mike McKelvey. No it isn't. did I spell it wrong? Yep. It's Michael McKelvy. So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and Art all ganging up on Mike and agreeing that he's an idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more for some of them. Arny's first lie of the day concerning me. I in no way "ganged up" on Mike. I simply and politely asked him his name, because I didn't want to use the silly "put down" names that are used here. Once again, no good deed left unpunished by you. Stop lying. Not at all. You quite clearly agreed with a post by Art that accused him of "having his thong in a bunch" Here's the reference: Not me!! I never used that term. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
#93
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... It's just the old "My opponent is emotionally disturbed" debating trade ruse. my opponent is flat out insane. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
#94
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:01:05 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: "Sander deWaal" wrote in message "Clyde Slick" said: His name is Mike McKelvey. No it isn't. did I spell it wrong? Yep. It's Michael McKelvy. So here we've got it - gentlepersons Sander, Jenn and Art all ganging up on Mike and agreeing that he's an idiot. Probably for the 100th time or more for some of them. Heartwarming or what? ;-) Well, criticism has never affected you or caused you to change in any way, Arnie. What makes you think it will have any effect on Mike? |
#95
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"Jenn" wrote in message ... Exactly. And when I asked Mike if he had his "thong in a bunch" because he called someone an idiot, that is called "ganging up" by Arny. LOL Wait a sec.... I missed a gang wedgie? Just when I thought this thread had nothing further of interest. ScottW |
#96
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:24:04 GMT, Jenn
wrote: Pure BS Arny. Jenn has said she prefers really good LP's over most CD's, all CDs -- at least, all she's heard -- really. To be accurate, I've stated this in terms of timbres only. Jenn, I hope you realize that all statements on RAO are blanket statements. There's no room for equivocation here. |
#97
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"John Atkinson" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world: Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD is abnormal by modern standards. Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an objectively inferior format. Arny when will you grasp that preferences and cultural choices are not subject to an opinion poll. When you will people stop claiming he does things that he doesn't do? There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP. Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for him to do something he hasn't. Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being more natural from a source laden with noise and distortion is different than attacking preference. And while there is an element of "anachrophilia" about a preference for LPs almost a quarter century after the launch of CD, it is a fact that sales of LP playback equipment are increasing. Admittedly from a low base, but the etnhusiasm is real. And sad. What rational person wants to hear more distortion and noise when they could jut hear music? Of course going from .0001% of the audio sales market to .0002% is not something to get all excited about. On the subject iof string sound on CD that provoked Arny Krueger's crusade, the violin sound on the new Harmonia Mundi SACD of Tchaikovsky's Symphony 6 is good as I as have ever heard from LP. You mean they deliberately added layers of distortion and tried to remove it from the original master by dubbing it off to analog a couple of generations? |
#98
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
wrote in message
ink.net "John Atkinson" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world: Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD is abnormal by modern standards. Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an objectively inferior format. Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people. Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio. There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP. Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for him to do something he hasn't. Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being more natural from a source laden with noise and distortion is different than attacking preference. Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences while saying that is really self-contradictory. One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone to ear damange. Based on the small and subtle audio issues she does pick up and deal with on the job, I'd say that listening to vinyl would literally send her out of the room, screaming. And while there is an element of "anachrophilia" about a preference for LPs almost a quarter century after the launch of CD, it is a fact that sales of LP playback equipment are increasing. Admittedly from a low base, but the etnhusiasm is real. Actually, the sales of LPs and presumably LP playback equipment show signs of topping out and decreasing (see RIAA 2005 stats). The statistics I've seen never broke down the DJ and Retro-Audio markets. We do know that the LP playback equipment sales in the DJ market had a fantastic boom, sometimes exceeding the sales of guitars. However several digital alternatives do now exist. In addition, I'm aware of some *everyman* type guys who are digitizing their LP collections. I suspect that some people are buying new LP playback equipment for this purpose - the percentages I can only guess at. And sad. What rational person wants to hear more distortion and noise when they could just hear music? There may not be a lot of sales for that purpose. There aren't a lot of Harry and Jenns. Of course going from .0001% of the audio sales market to .0002% is not something to get all excited about. On the subject iof string sound on CD that provoked Arny Krueger's crusade, the violin sound on the new Harmonia Mundi SACD of Tchaikovsky's Symphony 6 is good as I as have ever heard from LP. You mean they deliberately added layers of distortion and tried to remove it from the original master by dubbing it off to analog a couple of generations? I don't think so - I think its about people who hear what they've been told to hear by corrupted sources. |
#99
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in message ink.net "John Atkinson" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world: Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD is abnormal by modern standards. Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an objectively inferior format. Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people. Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio. There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP. Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for him to do something he hasn't. Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being more natural from a source laden with noise and distortion is different than attacking preference. Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences while saying that is really self-contradictory. One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone to ear damange. My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is, based on your age, is. |
#100
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
Jenn wrote: In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in message ink.net "John Atkinson" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world: Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD is abnormal by modern standards. Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an objectively inferior format. Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people. Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio. There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP. Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for him to do something he hasn't. Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being more natural from a source laden with noise and distortion is different than attacking preference. Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences while saying that is really self-contradictory. One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone to ear damange. My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is, based on your age, is. But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are too close to the orchestra when conducting. Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your class :-) vlad |
#102
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
vlad wrote: Jenn wrote: In article . com, "vlad" wrote: Jenn wrote: In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in message ink.net "John Atkinson" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world: Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD is abnormal by modern standards. Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an objectively inferior format. Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people. Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio. There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP. Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for him to do something he hasn't. Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being more natural from a source laden with noise and distortion is different than attacking preference. Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences while saying that is really self-contradictory. One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone to ear damange. My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is, based on your age, is. But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are too close to the orchestra when conducting. Incorrect. The ensemble that I usually conduct doesn't reach the dB level for hearing damage from my position. Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your class :-) And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny? BTW, have you come up with that evidence that you claimed that you had from RAHE that I claimed that I have better hearing than anyone else? vlad I am glad you asked. I did an attempt to find these messages on RAHE. I found very few posts from you, all of them relatively old. No messages about violin timbre. I did wider search - found your messages on abortion and homosexuality group but again nothing came to light about your superior hearing abilities. So, I consider there are two possible explanations of that: 1) somebody (like you) erased messages from Google about your superior hearing abilities, I don't even know how to do that. I'm sure that it's too difficult, but I've never had the need to do it. 2) I have a case of "de ja vue" and imagined all this lively exchange on RAHE. Some other people here mentioned your bragging on RAHE how musicians are better qualified to judge musical instruments sound then us simple mortals (objectivists :-). So it makes me think that may be I am still sane and do not imagine things. It leaves first explanation. You can present you side of the story here. Sigh... I've never erased anything. Until you mentioned it, I didn't know that it was possble. That leaves the truth: As demonstrated by my friend Chung, you THOUGHT that I wrote something that I didn't for some unknown reason. So all of that was for naught, as usual. |
#103
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
vlad wrote:
Jenn wrote: In article . com, "vlad" wrote: Jenn wrote: In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in message ink.net "John Atkinson" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world: Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD is abnormal by modern standards. Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an objectively inferior format. Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people. Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio. There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP. Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for him to do something he hasn't. Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being more natural from a source laden with noise and distortion is different than attacking preference. Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences while saying that is really self-contradictory. One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone to ear damange. My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is, based on your age, is. But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are too close to the orchestra when conducting. Incorrect. The ensemble that I usually conduct doesn't reach the dB level for hearing damage from my position. Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your class :-) And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny? BTW, have you come up with that evidence that you claimed that you had from RAHE that I claimed that I have better hearing than anyone else? vlad I am glad you asked. I did an attempt to find these messages on RAHE. I found very few posts from you, all of them relatively old. No messages about violin timbre. violin sound in particular: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...e=source&hl=en "This is the kind of thing I am refering to when I say that all halls have something in common: no professional hall allows the listener to confuse the sound of instruments. But, some recordings do. Other recordings and equipment don't display that gross of error, but rather they mask more subtle timbres. For example, in some halls and on some recordings playing through some equipment, one can hear if there is one Strad violin playing in a section of otherwise good but not superb instruments. In ALL of the halls, however, it sounds like a violin. On some recordings through some equipment, barely so, It ****es me off to hear a recording of the L.A. Phil, knowing that there are 4 Strads in that violin section, and the recording sounds like all of the violins are made by J.C. Penny. In my experience, that happens much more on CD than in LP, that is, the homoginization of color into one bland, "beige". " May 2005 timbre generally " I used the word "accurate" in the sense that a recording captures the timbre of the instruments, the balance of the players and the musical "logic" behind their choices, and so on. Many musicians describe that analog gets these things better. Mike Oh, I very much agree, but I wanted to see if any musician is known to have used the term "analogue is more accurate" in the "measurement" sense. " // and this whole thread: http://tinyurl.com/s986t So, I consider there are two possible explanations of that: 1) somebody (like you) erased messages from Google about your superior hearing abilities, 2) I have a case of "de ja vue" and imagined all this lively exchange on RAHE. I think you simply need to look harder. Some other people here mentioned your bragging on RAHE how musicians are better qualified to judge musical instruments sound then us simple mortals (objectivists :-). So it makes me think that may be I am still sane and do not imagine things. It leaves first explanation. You can present you side of the story here. I see no evidence of deleted posts by Jenn on RAHE...but I haven't looked that hard for them. -- -S "If men were angels, no government would be necessary." - James Madison (1788) |
#104
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"vlad" wrote in message ups.com... Jenn wrote: In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in message ink.net "John Atkinson" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world: Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD is abnormal by modern standards. Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an objectively inferior format. Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people. Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio. There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP. Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for him to do something he hasn't. Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being more natural from a source laden with noise and distortion is different than attacking preference. Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences while saying that is really self-contradictory. One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone to ear damange. My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is, based on your age, is. But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are too close to the orchestra when conducting. Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your class :-) Sorry, I thought you were ARny. So, you are saying that all conductors are hearing dmamged? -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
#105
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"vlad" wrote in message oups.com... Jenn wrote: In article . com, "vlad" wrote: Jenn wrote: In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in message ink.net "John Atkinson" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world: Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD is abnormal by modern standards. Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an objectively inferior format. Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people. Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio. There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP. Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for him to do something he hasn't. Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being more natural from a source laden with noise and distortion is different than attacking preference. Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences while saying that is really self-contradictory. One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone to ear damange. My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is, based on your age, is. But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are too close to the orchestra when conducting. Incorrect. The ensemble that I usually conduct doesn't reach the dB level for hearing damage from my position. Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your class :-) And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny? BTW, have you come up with that evidence that you claimed that you had from RAHE that I claimed that I have better hearing than anyone else? vlad I am glad you asked. I did an attempt to find these messages on RAHE. I found very few posts from you, all of them relatively old. No messages about violin timbre. I did wider search - found your messages on abortion and homosexuality group but again nothing came to light about your superior hearing abilities. So, I consider there are two possible explanations of that: 1) somebody (like you) erased messages from Google about your superior hearing abilities, 2) I have a case of "de ja vue" and imagined all this lively exchange on RAHE. Some other people here mentioned your bragging on RAHE how musicians are better qualified to judge musical instruments sound then us simple mortals (objectivists :-). So it makes me think that may be I am still sane and do not imagine things. It leaves first explanation. You can present you side of the story here. Happy LP listening. vlad There was a very long discussion on the subject of musicans and audiophiles and how they listen differently and they are mutually exclusive. I don't recall Jenn's exact participation, but I distinctly recall the discussions. Perhaps if you contact the moderators, they can point you towards the right thread(s). |
#106
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In article ,
Steven Sullivan wrote: vlad wrote: Jenn wrote: In article . com, "vlad" wrote: Jenn wrote: In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in message ink.net "John Atkinson" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world: Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD is abnormal by modern standards. Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an objectively inferior format. Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people. Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio. There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP. Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for him to do something he hasn't. Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being more natural from a source laden with noise and distortion is different than attacking preference. Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences while saying that is really self-contradictory. One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone to ear damange. My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is, based on your age, is. But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are too close to the orchestra when conducting. Incorrect. The ensemble that I usually conduct doesn't reach the dB level for hearing damage from my position. Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your class :-) And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny? BTW, have you come up with that evidence that you claimed that you had from RAHE that I claimed that I have better hearing than anyone else? vlad I am glad you asked. I did an attempt to find these messages on RAHE. I found very few posts from you, all of them relatively old. No messages about violin timbre. violin sound in particular: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...beecb7?dmode=s ource&hl=en "This is the kind of thing I am refering to when I say that all halls have something in common: no professional hall allows the listener to confuse the sound of instruments. But, some recordings do. Other recordings and equipment don't display that gross of error, but rather they mask more subtle timbres. For example, in some halls and on some recordings playing through some equipment, one can hear if there is one Strad violin playing in a section of otherwise good but not superb instruments. In ALL of the halls, however, it sounds like a violin. On some recordings through some equipment, barely so, It ****es me off to hear a recording of the L.A. Phil, knowing that there are 4 Strads in that violin section, and the recording sounds like all of the violins are made by J.C. Penny. In my experience, that happens much more on CD than in LP, that is, the homoginization of color into one bland, "beige". " May 2005 timbre generally " I used the word "accurate" in the sense that a recording captures the timbre of the instruments, the balance of the players and the musical "logic" behind their choices, and so on. Many musicians describe that analog gets these things better. Mike Oh, I very much agree, but I wanted to see if any musician is known to have used the term "analogue is more accurate" in the "measurement" sense. " // and this whole thread: http://tinyurl.com/s986t So, I consider there are two possible explanations of that: 1) somebody (like you) erased messages from Google about your superior hearing abilities, 2) I have a case of "de ja vue" and imagined all this lively exchange on RAHE. I think you simply need to look harder. Some other people here mentioned your bragging on RAHE how musicians are better qualified to judge musical instruments sound then us simple mortals (objectivists :-). So it makes me think that may be I am still sane and do not imagine things. It leaves first explanation. You can present you side of the story here. I see no evidence of deleted posts by Jenn on RAHE...but I haven't looked that hard for them. I've deleted no posts, ever. You can believe me or not; I don't care. |
#107
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
In article
, Jenn wrote: In article , Steven Sullivan wrote: vlad wrote: Jenn wrote: In article . com, "vlad" wrote: Jenn wrote: In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in message ink.net "John Atkinson" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world: Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD is abnormal by modern standards. Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an objectively inferior format. Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people. Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio. There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP. Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for him to do something he hasn't. Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being more natural from a source laden with noise and distortion is different than attacking preference. Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences while saying that is really self-contradictory. One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone to ear damange. My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is, based on your age, is. But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are too close to the orchestra when conducting. Incorrect. The ensemble that I usually conduct doesn't reach the dB level for hearing damage from my position. Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your class :-) And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny? I wonder why this went unanswered... BTW, have you come up with that evidence that you claimed that you had from RAHE that I claimed that I have better hearing than anyone else? vlad I am glad you asked. I did an attempt to find these messages on RAHE. I found very few posts from you, all of them relatively old. No messages about violin timbre. violin sound in particular: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...78beecb7?dmode =s ource&hl=en "This is the kind of thing I am refering to when I say that all halls have something in common: no professional hall allows the listener to confuse the sound of instruments. But, some recordings do. Other recordings and equipment don't display that gross of error, but rather they mask more subtle timbres. For example, in some halls and on some recordings playing through some equipment, one can hear if there is one Strad violin playing in a section of otherwise good but not superb instruments. In ALL of the halls, however, it sounds like a violin. On some recordings through some equipment, barely so, It ****es me off to hear a recording of the L.A. Phil, knowing that there are 4 Strads in that violin section, and the recording sounds like all of the violins are made by J.C. Penny. In my experience, that happens much more on CD than in LP, that is, the homoginization of color into one bland, "beige". " May 2005 timbre generally " I used the word "accurate" in the sense that a recording captures the timbre of the instruments, the balance of the players and the musical "logic" behind their choices, and so on. Many musicians describe that analog gets these things better. Mike Oh, I very much agree, but I wanted to see if any musician is known to have used the term "analogue is more accurate" in the "measurement" sense. " // and this whole thread: http://tinyurl.com/s986t So, I consider there are two possible explanations of that: 1) somebody (like you) erased messages from Google about your superior hearing abilities, 2) I have a case of "de ja vue" and imagined all this lively exchange on RAHE. I think you simply need to look harder. Some other people here mentioned your bragging on RAHE how musicians are better qualified to judge musical instruments sound then us simple mortals (objectivists :-). So it makes me think that may be I am still sane and do not imagine things. It leaves first explanation. You can present you side of the story here. I see no evidence of deleted posts by Jenn on RAHE...but I haven't looked that hard for them. I've deleted no posts, ever. You can believe me or not; I don't care. |
#108
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Non-LP analogue
Jenn said: And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny? I wonder why this went unanswered... Merely voicing a preference for non-Hive-approved stuff is an attack. You've said you like vinyl, the medium that is the apotheosis of Holy Hivie Accuracy. You might as well have accused Arnii of whoring out the Kroobitch in a back alley for nickel BJs. ;-) |
#109
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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"Jenn" wrote in message
In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in message ink.net "John Atkinson" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world: Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD is abnormal by modern standards. Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an objectively inferior format. Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people. Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio. There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP. Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for him to do something he hasn't. Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being more natural from a source laden with noise and distortion is different than attacking preference. Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences while saying that is really self-contradictory. One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone to ear damange. My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is, based on your age, is. I've already documented the fact that concert musicians are prone to hearing loss due to their work environment. |
#110
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"Jenn" wrote in message
In article . com, "vlad" wrote: Jenn wrote: In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in message ink.net "John Atkinson" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world: Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD is abnormal by modern standards. Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an objectively inferior format. Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people. Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio. There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP. Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for him to do something he hasn't. Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being more natural from a source laden with noise and distortion is different than attacking preference. Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences while saying that is really self-contradictory. One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone to ear damange. My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is, based on your age, is. But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are too close to the orchestra when conducting. Incorrect. The ensemble that I usually conduct doesn't reach the dB level for hearing damage from my position. Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your class :-) And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny? Vlad, you made a tactical error. Note that Jenn jumps on your comment about attacks, thus avoiding serious discussion of the well-known and well-documented fact that concert musicians are prone to hearing damage due to their work environment. |
#111
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Non-LP analogue
wrote in message
ink.net There was a very long discussion on the subject of musicans and audiophiles and how they listen differently and they are mutually exclusive. I don't recall Jenn's exact participation, but I distinctly recall the discussions. I also documented the fact that concert musicians are prone to hearing damage due to their work environment. Evidence she doesn't want to deal with sort of disappears around Jenn. |
#112
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Arny Krueger wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in message ink.net "John Atkinson" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world: Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD is abnormal by modern standards. Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an objectively inferior format. Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people. Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio. There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP. Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for him to do something he hasn't. Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being more natural from a source laden with noise and distortion is different than attacking preference. Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences while saying that is really self-contradictory. One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone to ear damange. My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is, based on your age, is. I've already documented the fact that concert musicians are prone to hearing loss due to their work environment. No, you didn't. You came up with a study that states that some concert musicians suffer hearing loss, not that concert musicians are prone to hearing loss. Do you see the difference? Concert pianists are not in any way "prone" to hearing loss, nor are conductors. Very, very seldom do orchestral dB levels reach the 90 dB threshold for a workday that is considered to be the danger point. Even in orchestral pits, the most confined spaces where we perform, the danger has been found to be minimum; see the recent study by Canadian Opera. Now, violinsts and violists tend to be the most hearing damaged of those instrumentalists who are damaged, but only in the left ear, for obvious reasons. In addition, union regs for the past 20 years or so help to guard against any of this, as rehearsals are kept to a shorter time frame, etc. And, any of us now wear specialized ear plugs while sitting, for example, near the percussion during Le Sacre. At any rate, any rock musician, rock concert attender, or anyone with a iPod who uses earbuds/headphones is at FAR greater danger of hearing loss. |
#113
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
Arny Krueger wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article . com, "vlad" wrote: Jenn wrote: In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in message ink.net "John Atkinson" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Arny tells Jenn about the way of the world: Most normal audiophiles and music lovers had abandoned the LP format as their "daily driver" about 12-15 years ago. *Anybody* who favors the LP format over CD is abnormal by modern standards. Abnormal in the sense that they are preferring an objectively inferior format. Also, abnormal in that they are a relatively small, rare group of people. Abnormal that they often have false beliefs about audio. There is no rational reason for Arny Krueger to keep attacking Jenn's preference for listening to music on LP. Whew that's a relief, good to know there's no reason for him to do something he hasn't. Criticizing a statement about the timbre of violins being more natural from a source laden with noise and distortion is different than attacking preference. Exactly. And claiming superior abilities to discern technical differences while saying that is really self-contradictory. One of the best live sound mixers I trained at church is a woman about Jenn's age, whose ears are very sensitive but still somewhat untrained in some ways. She can do some things I've trained he to do at better than I can because her hearing is just that much more sensitive. She's taken good care of her ears and unlike Jenn does not have an occupation that is prone to ear damange. My occupation isn't prone to hearing damage, Arny, but your gender is, based on your age, is. But of course, your occupation is prone to the hearing damage. You are too close to the orchestra when conducting. Incorrect. The ensemble that I usually conduct doesn't reach the dB level for hearing damage from my position. Now, you can attack me. Like you did attack Arny. Really shows your class :-) And what way, pray tell, did I "attack" Arny? Vlad, you made a tactical error. No, his errors we 1. Not showing that my closness to my ensembles produce dB levels what will endanger my hearing. 2. Not answering a simple question: "In what way did I attack Arny?" Yet another unfounded allegation. Note that Jenn jumps on your comment about attacks, thus avoiding serious discussion of the well-known and well-documented fact that concert musicians are prone to hearing damage due to their work environment. No, I had answered it long ago when you first brought up the topic, and I did again about 5 mins ago. What I noted was how Vlad failed to answer my question about attacking you. |
#114
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
Arny Krueger wrote: wrote in message ink.net There was a very long discussion on the subject of musicans and audiophiles and how they listen differently and they are mutually exclusive. I don't recall Jenn's exact participation, but I distinctly recall the discussions. I also documented the fact that concert musicians are prone to hearing damage due to their work environment. See previous post. Evidence she doesn't want to deal with sort of disappears around Jenn. LOL |
#115
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"Jenn" wrote in message
oups.com I've already documented the fact that concert musicians are prone to hearing loss due to their work environment. No, you didn't. You came up with a study that states that some concert musicians suffer hearing loss, not that concert musicians are prone to hearing loss. Do you see the difference? As Jenn would say, this is Jenn Lie #1 for today. I came up with more than one study. The study did say that some concert musicians suffer hearing loss. However, the studies also gave reasons why this can be due to their work environment. So, we've got more than one case of correlation, not just the one case that Jenn has tried to deceptively reduce the evidence to. We've also got explanations for the observations based on the well-known sensitivity of the human ear to damage by loud ambient sound levels. Concert pianists are not in any way "prone" to hearing loss, nor are conductors. Prove it. Very, very seldom do orchestral dB levels reach the 90 dB threshold for a workday that is considered to be the danger point. Prove it. Even in orchestral pits, the most confined spaces where we perform, the danger has been found to be minimum; see the recent study by Canadian Opera. No tracable cite(s) provided. Doing my own reasarch, I find that: http://www.4hearingloss.com/archives...sity_of_t.html "The findings are the opposite of those gathered by Alison Wright Reid in a 2001 study for the Association of British Orchestras." So now we're caught between two dueling studies. No proof except that there is a controversy. Now, violinsts and violists tend to be the most hearing damaged of those instrumentalists who are damaged, but only in the left ear, for obvious reasons. In addition, union regs for the past 20 years or so help to guard against any of this, as rehearsals are kept to a shorter time frame, etc. And, any of us now wear specialized ear plugs while sitting, for example, near the percussion during Le Sacre. Interesting claims lacking properly cited evidence. At any rate, any rock musician, rock concert attender, or anyone with a iPod who uses earbuds/headphones is at FAR greater danger of hearing loss. Prove it. Here are some studies for Jenn to rebut in her spare time: http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm "Given the medical details, said Tyler, the most obvious explanation is that the conductor's hearing was done in by a lifetime of facing brass sections in Wagner and Bruckner." http://www.uic.edu/sph/glakes/harts/...y/musnoise.txt "A 1981 study at Sweden's Concert Hall and Lyric Theatre in Gothenberg revealed that 59 out of 139 orchestra musicians (42%) had hearing losses greater than that expected for their ages." http://www.4hearingloss.com/archives...gs_for_or.html "Malcolm Warne Holland, orchestra and concerts director of Opera North, who has suffered a "dulling" of hearing on one side after 20 years as a trombone player, thinks not. "Wagner is notoriously noisy, but loud music that is nice is much easier to endure than loud music that isn't," he said. "High squeaks are more tiring than louder music, and peaks of sound can be loud enough to be dangerous." http://ew2005.osha.eu.int/europeanno...5_frohlich.doc In the year 1991 doctors of the General Hospital of Vienna had examined classical musicians. 87 of 194 examined ears showed signs of noise induced hearing loss. In addition hearing loss is often paired with permanent tinnitus. Permanent threshold shifts were found[1] a.. In 66 ears: 20-35 dB, b.. In 19 ears: 40-55 dB, c.. In 2 ears: more than 60 dB http://www2.worksafebc.com/pdfs/hear...lMusicians.pdf "An additional finding was that violinists had significantly poorer hearing in their left ear at the higher frequencies." "Based on the exposures established for musicians, some noise-induced hearing loss is predicted. ...However, several studies reported highfrequency "notches" suggesting minimal noise damage in some musicians, possibly the more." etc. |
#116
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
Arny Krueger wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message oups.com I've already documented the fact that concert musicians are prone to hearing loss due to their work environment. No, you didn't. You came up with a study that states that some concert musicians suffer hearing loss, not that concert musicians are prone to hearing loss. Do you see the difference? As Jenn would say, this is Jenn Lie #1 for today. I came up with more than one study. Well, one of the websites you linked to showed some studies. The study did say that some concert musicians suffer hearing loss. Correct. Read my paragraph above; I didn't dispute this. But YOU (today) said thta concert musicians are "prone" to hearing loss. There is no proof of this. However, the studies also gave reasons why this can be due to their work environment. So, we've got more than one case of correlation, not just the one case that Jenn has tried to deceptively reduce the evidence to. We've also got explanations for the observations based on the well-known sensitivity of the human ear to damage by loud ambient sound levels. Concert pianists are not in any way "prone" to hearing loss, nor are conductors. Prove it. YOU made the postive allegation; it is up to YOU to prove it. Very, very seldom do orchestral dB levels reach the 90 dB threshold for a workday that is considered to be the danger point. Prove it. According to published standards, 90db should be experienced for fewer than *8 HOURS* per day (U.S. standard; Canada's standard is 85 db) to guard against damage. The loudest sound I've ever measured in my rehearsal room or performance hall is 90 dB, and that only for less than about 30 seconds. No ensemble rehearses for more than about 3 hours at a time. Even in orchestral pits, the most confined spaces where we perform, the danger has been found to be minimum; see the recent study by Canadian Opera. No tracable cite(s) provided. Try a Google search: http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/nationa...ing050316.html Doing my own reasarch, I find that: http://www.4hearingloss.com/archives...sity_of_t.html "The findings are the opposite of those gathered by Alison Wright Reid in a 2001 study for the Association of British Orchestras." So now we're caught between two dueling studies. No proof except that there is a controversy. Now, violinsts and violists tend to be the most hearing damaged of those instrumentalists who are damaged, but only in the left ear, for obvious reasons. In addition, union regs for the past 20 years or so help to guard against any of this, as rehearsals are kept to a shorter time frame, etc. And, any of us now wear specialized ear plugs while sitting, for example, near the percussion during Le Sacre. Interesting claims lacking properly cited evidence. Feel free to search the archives of the American Symphony League and the American Federation of Musicians. At any rate, any rock musician, rock concert attender, or anyone with a iPod who uses earbuds/headphones is at FAR greater danger of hearing loss. Prove it. No proof needed, as it's common knowledge. Go to any rock concert and see if you can discern what has the higher average dB level, a typical classical concert or a typical rock concert. Here are some studies for Jenn to rebut in her spare time: http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm Well, I wouldn't call that a "study" but anyway... "Given the medical details, said Tyler, the most obvious explanation is that the conductor's hearing was done in by a lifetime of facing brass sections in Wagner and Bruckner." LOL Well, that and he was nearly 70 years old and in the last year of his life! http://www.uic.edu/sph/glakes/harts/...y/musnoise.txt "A 1981 study at Sweden's Concert Hall and Lyric Theatre in Gothenberg revealed that 59 out of 139 orchestra musicians (42%) had hearing losses greater than that expected for their ages." What instruments did they play? http://www.4hearingloss.com/archives...gs_for_or.html "Malcolm Warne Holland, orchestra and concerts director of Opera North, who has suffered a "dulling" of hearing on one side after 20 years as a trombone player, thinks not. "Wagner is notoriously noisy, but loud music that is nice is much easier to endure than loud music that isn't," he said. "High squeaks are more tiring than louder music, and peaks of sound can be loud enough to be dangerous." http://ew2005.osha.eu.int/europeanno...5_frohlich.doc In the year 1991 doctors of the General Hospital of Vienna had examined classical musicians. 87 of 194 examined ears showed signs of noise induced hearing loss. In addition hearing loss is often paired with permanent tinnitus. Permanent threshold shifts were found[1] a.. In 66 ears: 20-35 dB, b.. In 19 ears: 40-55 dB, c.. In 2 ears: more than 60 dB http://www2.worksafebc.com/pdfs/hear...lMusicians.pdf "An additional finding was that violinists had significantly poorer hearing in their left ear at the higher frequencies." "Based on the exposures established for musicians, some noise-induced hearing loss is predicted. ...However, several studies reported highfrequency "notches" suggesting minimal noise damage in some musicians, possibly the more." etc. All true, I'm sure. One of your studies also stated that 10% of the general population is exposed to workplace dB levels that cause hearing loss and that over 50 million Americans have tinnitus, |
#117
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In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote: Even in orchestral pits, the most confined spaces where we perform, the danger has been found to be minimum; see the recent study by Canadian Opera. No tracable cite(s) provided. http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin6/050314-1109.asp "The researchers found that the noise exposure of players of all of the instrument groups fell below acceptable 85 dBA (noise exposure level measured in decibels - dB, corrected to the frequency response of the human ear - A) for an eight-hour day recommended by institutions such as the U.S. National Institute of Safety and Health, the International Standard Organization (ISO) and also included in the Canadian Standards Association." Stephen |
#118
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"Jenn" wrote in message
oups.com Arny Krueger wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message oups.com I've already documented the fact that concert musicians are prone to hearing loss due to their work environment. No, you didn't. You came up with a study that states that some concert musicians suffer hearing loss, not that concert musicians are prone to hearing loss. Do you see the difference? As Jenn would say, this is Jenn Lie #1 for today. I came up with more than one study. Well, one of the websites you linked to showed some studies. The study did say that some concert musicians suffer hearing loss. Correct. Read my paragraph above; I didn't dispute this. But YOU (today) said thta concert musicians are "prone" to hearing loss. There is no proof of this. OK Jenn, lets have a drag-out-knock-down fight over the meaning of the word "prone". Yawn! However, the studies also gave reasons why this can be due to their work environment. So, we've got more than one case of correlation, not just the one case that Jenn has tried to deceptively reduce the evidence to. We've also got explanations for the observations based on the well-known sensitivity of the human ear to damage by loud ambient sound levels. Jenn has no comment, so this must all be true Concert pianists are not in any way "prone" to hearing loss, nor are conductors. Prove it. YOU made the postive allegation; it is up to YOU to prove it. Since you can't agree on the meaning of the word prone, Jenn - for me to go on would be futile. Very, very seldom do orchestral dB levels reach the 90 dB threshold for a workday that is considered to be the danger point. Prove it. According to published standards, 90db should be experienced for fewer than *8 HOURS* per day (U.S. standard; Canada's standard is 85 db) to guard against damage. Huh? http://www.acoem.org/position/statements.asp?CATA_ID=53 In obtaining a history of noise exposure, the clinician should keep in mind that the risk of noise-induced hearing loss is considered to increase significantly with chronic exposures above 85 dBA for an 8-hour time-weighted average (TWA). Seems like this U.S. based authority agrees with the Canadians. The loudest sound I've ever measured in my rehearsal room or performance hall is 90 dB, and that only for less than about 30 seconds. No ensemble rehearses for more than about 3 hours at a time. Since you don't say where you've measured in your rehearsal hall, all of your measements may be invalid. Even in orchestral pits, the most confined spaces where we perform, the danger has been found to be minimum; see the recent study by Canadian Opera. No tracable cite(s) provided. Try a Google search: http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/nationa...ing050316.html Doing my own reasarch, I find that: http://www.4hearingloss.com/archives...sity_of_t.html "The findings are the opposite of those gathered by Alison Wright Reid in a 2001 study for the Association of British Orchestras." So now we're caught between two dueling studies. No proof except that there is a controversy. Now, violinsts and violists tend to be the most hearing damaged of those instrumentalists who are damaged, but only in the left ear, for obvious reasons. In addition, union regs for the past 20 years or so help to guard against any of this, as rehearsals are kept to a shorter time frame, etc. And, any of us now wear specialized ear plugs while sitting, for example, near the percussion during Le Sacre. Interesting claims lacking properly cited evidence. Feel free to search the archives of the American Symphony League and the American Federation of Musicians. Not my job. It's a positive assertion and therefore up to you to support Jenn. At least that's what you just told me earlier in this post. At any rate, any rock musician, rock concert attender, or anyone with a iPod who uses earbuds/headphones is at FAR greater danger of hearing loss. Prove it. No proof needed, as it's common knowledge. Unsupported assertion misrepresented as an accepted fact. Go to any rock concert and see if you can discern what has the higher average dB level, a typical classical concert or a typical rock concert. Straw man argument based on rock concerts noted. Jenn apparently does not think that iPod owners ever listen to anything but rock and roll, and at ear-shattering volumes. Besides it doesn't matter what rock lovers do, the discussion is about classical musicians and conductors. Here are some studies for Jenn to rebut in her spare time: http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm Well, I wouldn't call that a "study" but anyway... "Given the medical details, said Tyler, the most obvious explanation is that the conductor's hearing was done in by a lifetime of facing brass sections in Wagner and Bruckner." LOL Well, that and he was nearly 70 years old and in the last year of his life! http://www.uic.edu/sph/glakes/harts/...y/musnoise.txt "A 1981 study at Sweden's Concert Hall and Lyric Theatre in Gothenberg revealed that 59 out of 139 orchestra musicians (42%) had hearing losses greater than that expected for their ages." What instruments did they play? Irrelevant detail. http://www.4hearingloss.com/archives...gs_for_or.html "Malcolm Warne Holland, orchestra and concerts director of Opera North, who has suffered a "dulling" of hearing on one side after 20 years as a trombone player, thinks not. "Wagner is notoriously noisy, but loud music that is nice is much easier to endure than loud music that isn't," he said. "High squeaks are more tiring than louder music, and peaks of sound can be loud enough to be dangerous." no comment by Jenn - she must be stipulating that this is relevant http://ew2005.osha.eu.int/europeanno...5_frohlich.doc In the year 1991 doctors of the General Hospital of Vienna had examined classical musicians. 87 of 194 examined ears showed signs of noise induced hearing loss. In addition hearing loss is often paired with permanent tinnitus. Permanent threshold shifts were found[1] a.. In 66 ears: 20-35 dB, b.. In 19 ears: 40-55 dB, c.. In 2 ears: more than 60 dB no comment by Jenn - she must be stipulating that this is relevant http://www2.worksafebc.com/pdfs/hear...lMusicians.pdf "An additional finding was that violinists had significantly poorer hearing in their left ear at the higher frequencies." "Based on the exposures established for musicians, some noise-induced hearing loss is predicted. ...However, several studies reported highfrequency "notches" suggesting minimal noise damage in some musicians, possibly the more." no comment by Jenn - she must be stipulating that this is relevant etc. All true, I'm sure. One of your studies also stated that 10% of the general population is exposed to workplace dB levels that cause hearing loss and that over 50 million Americans have tinnitus, Irrelevant. This is not about general workers, its about musicans in symphony orchestras and similar smaller ensembles. |
#119
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
"MINe 109" wrote in message
In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: Even in orchestral pits, the most confined spaces where we perform, the danger has been found to be minimum; see the recent study by Canadian Opera. No tracable cite(s) provided. http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin6/050314-1109.asp "The researchers found that the noise exposure of players of all of the instrument groups fell below acceptable 85 dBA (noise exposure level measured in decibels - dB, corrected to the frequency response of the human ear - A) for an eight-hour day recommended by institutions such as the U.S. National Institute of Safety and Health, the International Standard Organization (ISO) and also included in the Canadian Standards Association." On contrary paragraph in one study does not overcome all the other evidence that I collected. |
#120
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Non-LP analogue
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote: "MINe 109" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: Even in orchestral pits, the most confined spaces where we perform, the danger has been found to be minimum; see the recent study by Canadian Opera. No tracable cite(s) provided. http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin6/050314-1109.asp "The researchers found that the noise exposure of players of all of the instrument groups fell below acceptable 85 dBA (noise exposure level measured in decibels - dB, corrected to the frequency response of the human ear - A) for an eight-hour day recommended by institutions such as the U.S. National Institute of Safety and Health, the International Standard Organization (ISO) and also included in the Canadian Standards Association." On contrary paragraph in one study does not overcome all the other evidence that I collected. It implies that the hearing damage isn't necessarily due to professional musical activities. Of course, no one wants to sit in front of the trombones... Stephen |
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