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#1
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Best upgrade option?
Hi All -
I'm itching for an upgrade (no good reason to be honest). Looking for opinions on what would be a good way to spend my money. Currently my system is a very simple one - an Arcam Solo with Kef iQ9s. I listen to a lot of classical, but many other styles as well (pretty much everything really, but I care most about how the classical sounds). I'm willing to spend about $2000. The big catch is that the place I got my speakers from will allow you to upgrade with 100% trade in value in the first year if you buy speakers twice as much as the ones you have. This offer would expire for me sometime in the fall. I've considered a power amp (use my solo as the pre) - looking at a Rogue Audio Stereo 90 tube amp (I like the tube sound, but I'm not obsessed with the idea). Currently the solo is giving me 35 wpc, but I'm starting to think that it may not quite have the power I need for demanding work like Bruckner or Mahler. Things seem to get a little messy in strong passages, but it could very well just be room dynamics (which I'll be spending some time on this week). Whatcha think? Is 35 wpc enough for these speakers in a generally large room at moderate volumes? Would I even notice an amplifier upgrade with my Kefs? Should I forget all that and spend the money on a sub, SACD player or some other item? Thanks j. |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
Hi Jason -
I'd consider adding an Outlaw LFW-1 or 2 powered sub. That would add power and a foundation of low bass to let the orchestra "speak" with authority. Wouldn't cost nearly the $2000 (more like $400-600). Use some of that to get a dedicated SACD player (the C2000ES comes to mind as a good match - about $300). Blow the rest on music. Just M2CW. Harry "j." wrote in message ups.com... Hi All - I'm itching for an upgrade (no good reason to be honest). Looking for opinions on what would be a good way to spend my money. Currently my system is a very simple one - an Arcam Solo with Kef iQ9s. I listen to a lot of classical, but many other styles as well (pretty much everything really, but I care most about how the classical sounds). I'm willing to spend about $2000. The big catch is that the place I got my speakers from will allow you to upgrade with 100% trade in value in the first year if you buy speakers twice as much as the ones you have. This offer would expire for me sometime in the fall. I've considered a power amp (use my solo as the pre) - looking at a Rogue Audio Stereo 90 tube amp (I like the tube sound, but I'm not obsessed with the idea). Currently the solo is giving me 35 wpc, but I'm starting to think that it may not quite have the power I need for demanding work like Bruckner or Mahler. Things seem to get a little messy in strong passages, but it could very well just be room dynamics (which I'll be spending some time on this week). Whatcha think? Is 35 wpc enough for these speakers in a generally large room at moderate volumes? Would I even notice an amplifier upgrade with my Kefs? Should I forget all that and spend the money on a sub, SACD player or some other item? Thanks j. |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
Harry Lavo wrote: Hi Jason - I'd consider adding an Outlaw LFW-1 or 2 powered sub. That would add power and a foundation of low bass to let the orchestra "speak" with authority. Wouldn't cost nearly the $2000 (more like $400-600). Use some of that to get a dedicated SACD player (the C2000ES comes to mind as a good match - about $300). Blow the rest on music. Just M2CW. Haha - yeah, blowing the rest on music is probably not a bad idea. I may take your advice. I wasn't sure how well a sub would fit into the whole picture, only because my past experience with them has just been in home theater setups and car audio - in both cases they were just used to make loud booming noises Maybe a nice refined sub would do me well. SACD may be a good idea as well. I've been considering a new source of some sort - thought of a turntable, but likely SACD might fit my world better. Thanks for the advice! Anyone else got anything to say on the matter? |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
In article . com,
"j." wrote: Hi All - I'm itching for an upgrade (no good reason to be honest). Looking for opinions on what would be a good way to spend my money. Currently my system is a very simple one - an Arcam Solo with Kef iQ9s. I listen to a lot of classical, but many other styles as well (pretty much everything really, but I care most about how the classical sounds). I'm willing to spend about $2000. The big catch is that the place I got my speakers from will allow you to upgrade with 100% trade in value in the first year if you buy speakers twice as much as the ones you have. This offer would expire for me sometime in the fall. I've considered a power amp (use my solo as the pre) - looking at a Rogue Audio Stereo 90 tube amp (I like the tube sound, but I'm not obsessed with the idea). Currently the solo is giving me 35 wpc, but I'm starting to think that it may not quite have the power I need for demanding work like Bruckner or Mahler. Things seem to get a little messy in strong passages, but it could very well just be room dynamics (which I'll be spending some time on this week). Whatcha think? Is 35 wpc enough for these speakers in a generally large room at moderate volumes? Would I even notice an amplifier upgrade with my Kefs? Should I forget all that and spend the money on a sub, SACD player or some other item? How large is large? I took a look at the Kef iQ9 specs and 91 dB sensitivity should be easy on your amp. Unfortunately, the speakers I like under $2k, the Magnepan 1.6, wouldn't be so easy. Tubes? JA, in his measurement sidebar to the Stereophile review, cautions that the KEFs might sound bright with tube amps with high source impedance. In general, it would take a big increase in amp power to be noticeable in casual listening. Spend some time on the listening area. If the Solo still seems short of breath on those orchestral climaxes, you could do worse than adding an Arcam amplifier or, at risk of adding complexity to the system, a powered subwoofer. Stephen PS Used Quad 63s are often available under $2k. |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
How large is large? I took a look at the Kef iQ9 specs and 91 dB sensitivity should be easy on your amp. Unfortunately, the speakers I like under $2k, the Magnepan 1.6, wouldn't be so easy. Tubes? JA, in his measurement sidebar to the Stereophile review, cautions that the KEFs might sound bright with tube amps with high source impedance. In general, it would take a big increase in amp power to be noticeable in casual listening. Spend some time on the listening area. If the Solo still seems short of breath on those orchestral climaxes, you could do worse than adding an Arcam amplifier or, at risk of adding complexity to the system, a powered subwoofer. Stephen PS Used Quad 63s are often available under $2k. The room isn't huge really; it's about 14'x24'x8' with hardwood floors and large, thick curtains behind the speakers. I'll be spending some time doing what I can with the listening area, but I have to deal with girlfriend-induced limitations I've read that same Stereophile review, and was concerned by that as well. I have a tube headphone amp, so I can probably get my fix that way and save the hassle. You mentioned speakers for under $2k - as I said, if I took advantage of my dealers 'upgrade' program, I'd be able to use 100% of the cost of my Kefs against a new set, so I could then afford something in the $3500 range. This is a devious tactic on their part because of course it leads me into the "If I'm EVER going to upgrade my speakers, I better do it now!" mentality. ....but keep that in mind - the speaker budget would be well above the budget for anything else. Thanks for the input. j. |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
In article . com,
"j." wrote: How large is large?... The room isn't huge really; it's about 14'x24'x8' with hardwood floors and large, thick curtains behind the speakers. I'll be spending some time doing what I can with the listening area, but I have to deal with girlfriend-induced limitations I've read that same Stereophile review, and was concerned by that as well. I have a tube headphone amp, so I can probably get my fix that way and save the hassle. You could try it as a preamp for fun. You mentioned speakers for under $2k - as I said, if I took advantage of my dealers 'upgrade' program, I'd be able to use 100% of the cost of my Kefs against a new set, so I could then afford something in the $3500 range. This is a devious tactic on their part because of course it leads me into the "If I'm EVER going to upgrade my speakers, I better do it now!" mentality. ...but keep that in mind - the speaker budget would be well above the budget for anything else. Hmm. Magneplanar 3.6s wouldn't be a match for the amp either. I wonder if the M-Ls in that range have a powered woofer. You might sense that I like non-conventional speakers! so I'm at a disadvantage recommending dynamic models in your price range that are amp-friendly. The ones I've heard (PSB, Paradigm) would sound okay Solo'd but would ultimately need more watts. Good luck! Stephen |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
MINe 109 wrote: In article . com, "j." wrote: How large is large?... The room isn't huge really; it's about 14'x24'x8' with hardwood floors and large, thick curtains behind the speakers. I'll be spending some time doing what I can with the listening area, but I have to deal with girlfriend-induced limitations I've read that same Stereophile review, and was concerned by that as well. I have a tube headphone amp, so I can probably get my fix that way and save the hassle. You could try it as a preamp for fun. You mentioned speakers for under $2k - as I said, if I took advantage of my dealers 'upgrade' program, I'd be able to use 100% of the cost of my Kefs against a new set, so I could then afford something in the $3500 range. This is a devious tactic on their part because of course it leads me into the "If I'm EVER going to upgrade my speakers, I better do it now!" mentality. ...but keep that in mind - the speaker budget would be well above the budget for anything else. Hmm. Magneplanar 3.6s wouldn't be a match for the amp either. I wonder if the M-Ls in that range have a powered woofer. You might sense that I like non-conventional speakers! so I'm at a disadvantage recommending dynamic models in your price range that are amp-friendly. The ones I've heard (PSB, Paradigm) would sound okay Solo'd but would ultimately need more watts. Good luck! Stephen I have a set of 5 Paradigms for my home theater setup - I've found them to be great for what I paid for them. If I went the speaker upgrade route (taking advantage of the trade program my dealer has), I'd have to stick with speakers they sold. I know they have B&W, Lynn, and obviously Kef - but they have others (brands listed on their site: www.soundplus.ca). Right now they do have an Arcam power amp (Alpha 10 p3) that was a demonstration model for a good deal, and a couple of demo powered subs (A PMC TLE 1c and a McIntosh SL1). Maybe I should be looking that way. ...after all I like my Kefs, I just started feeling the need to upgrade after getting my HD650s and a tube headphone amp and now my main system just doesn't seem the same... but I have a feeling that matching that combo in a non-headphone system would cost a silly amount. ....its also possible that this weekend when I get some time to fiddle I'll find my issues are solved my throwing a rug down on my hard wood in front of the speakers Again - thanks for all the responses! j. |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
"j." wrote in message ps.com... Harry Lavo wrote: Hi Jason - I'd consider adding an Outlaw LFW-1 or 2 powered sub. That would add power and a foundation of low bass to let the orchestra "speak" with authority. Wouldn't cost nearly the $2000 (more like $400-600). Use some of that to get a dedicated SACD player (the C2000ES comes to mind as a good match - about $300). Blow the rest on music. Just M2CW. Haha - yeah, blowing the rest on music is probably not a bad idea. I may take your advice. I wasn't sure how well a sub would fit into the whole picture, only because my past experience with them has just been in home theater setups and car audio - in both cases they were just used to make loud booming noises Maybe a nice refined sub would do me well. The outlaw LMF-1 not only delivers really low bass, but is tuneful and musical as well. There are others as well, but generally not as good a value. SACD may be a good idea as well. I've been considering a new source of some sort - thought of a turntable, but likely SACD might fit my world better. Thanks for the advice! Anyone else got anything to say on the matter? Don't be scared off by "not enough music available". 3850 and rising on http://www.sa-cd.net/home . That's enough to keep me busy buying items I want for some time (today took delivery of Brothers in Arms, Bob Marley, John Hiatt, the CSO playing "Pines" and "Fountains" of Rome, and two others). My monthly quota. Since you care about the sound of classical music, I think you'll find SACD a natural. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
Harry Lavo wrote: Don't be scared off by "not enough music available". 3850 and rising on http://www.sa-cd.net/home . That's enough to keep me busy buying items I want for some time (today took delivery of Brothers in Arms, Bob Marley, John Hiatt, the CSO playing "Pines" and "Fountains" of Rome, and two others). My monthly quota. Since you care about the sound of classical music, I think you'll find SACD a natural. I wouldn't be scared off by the lack of selection - pretty much all the classical and jazz shops around here stock plenty of SACDs. I've looked at some of them longingly many times! My concern would more be - is it worth it with just a two speaker system? I have a HT setup as well, and its great for movies, but its just not where I do my musical listening. Is the sound quality increase so much better than what I'd be getting from the Solo (which I think has a pretty good CD player in it) that it would be worth it even with just a stereo system and not 5.1? Certainly I've heard SACDs before and was impressed, but they were being played on a stereo many times more expensive than mine, so its not exactly a good test. Thoughts? |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
Harry Lavo wrote: The outlaw LMF-1 not only delivers really low bass, but is tuneful and musical as well. There are others as well, but generally not as good a value. I took a look at the Outlaw products on your recommendation. They certainly seem like a good value, but my main concern is that no one around here (that I can find) carries them. From what I can tell, they only sell direct - so it makes it hard to give it a listen. If it was for my HT system, I wouldn't be as concerned, but since I am looking for something strictly musical, it makes it difficult just because all the reviews I can find talk about subs in terms of HT work where impact is the key. If I were to add a sub I'd want to simply extend my reach down and not mess with the existing sound too much. Is it pretty common for people to use subs in pure music stereos with floor standing loudspeakers? ...specifically people who listen to classical? |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
MINe 109 wrote: How large is large? I took a look at the Kef iQ9 specs and 91 dB sensitivity should be easy on your amp. Unfortunately, the speakers I like under $2k, the Magnepan 1.6, wouldn't be so easy. Tubes? JA, in his measurement sidebar to the Stereophile review, cautions that the KEFs might sound bright with tube amps with high source impedance. In general, it would take a big increase in amp power to be noticeable in casual listening. ....Alright - I emailed Rogue Audio about the specific comment made by Stereophile and linked to the measurements page that demonstrated the impedance spike. Mark O'Brien (who I believe is their main engineer) emailed me back directly almost right away and said their amps had no issues driving 'complex reactive loads', but suggested (based on the Stereophile measurements) that I use the 4ohm taps. Since I come from a world where there are no separate taps for 4ohm loads (all the amps I've had just use the same taps either handle the load or don't) - I have absolutely no idea what effect this will have on things. ...and while it sure would be fun to just take the amp and mess with it, that would be an expensive journey. Man, the choices. It was easier when I had a small budget and no equipment |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
On 23 Jun 2006 10:12:49 -0700, "j." wrote:
Is it pretty common for people to use subs in pure music stereos with floor standing loudspeakers? ...specifically people who listen to classical? Not common but some of us do. Kal |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
j. wrote:
Hi All - I'm itching for an upgrade (no good reason to be honest). Looking for opinions on what would be a good way to spend my money. Currently my system is a very simple one - an Arcam Solo with Kef iQ9s. I listen to a lot of classical, but many other styles as well (pretty much everything really, but I care most about how the classical sounds). I'm willing to spend about $2000. The big catch is that the place I got my speakers from will allow you to upgrade with 100% trade in value in the first year if you buy speakers twice as much as the ones you have. This offer would expire for me sometime in the fall. I've considered a power amp (use my solo as the pre) - looking at a Rogue Audio Stereo 90 tube amp (I like the tube sound, but I'm not obsessed with the idea). Currently the solo is giving me 35 wpc, but I'm starting to think that it may not quite have the power I need for demanding work like Bruckner or Mahler. Things seem to get a little messy in strong passages, but it could very well just be room dynamics (which I'll be spending some time on this week). Whatcha think? Is 35 wpc enough for these speakers in a generally large room at moderate volumes? Would I even notice an amplifier upgrade with my Kefs? Should I forget all that and spend the money on a sub, SACD player or some other item? Thanks j. Get an RAL program for your PC and a mic (some cheap mics that come with PC's are actually OK) and run sweeps etc and plot your room. Fixing the room or setup will usually yield much bigger improvements than equipment. Given you want more low end this would be imperative. Adding a sub to a poor room will make things worse. Additionally this program will help you place your sub. Are all first order reflections tamed? Including behind your head (if you sit close) or the ceiling? Based on running these programs I am now cautious of using subs. I have speakers rated to only 43hz flat. However when setup properly in my room I am only 3db down at 30hz. The room can fill in the bottom end for you. Unless one has mini-monitors or has to set things up in a bad spot (WAF or maybe a home theater etc) I think subs are a bad choice. The Stereophile review of this speaker cautions a tube amp due to high imp in the upper end. Additionally the speakers look to have a mid bass hump but go down to below 40hz. My guess is you have a very large room or placement issues. I would try setting them up right and maybe in near field so you can hear the system with as little room interference as possible. This should tell you if you need an equipment change or a room change. |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
j. wrote:
MINe 109 wrote: How large is large? I took a look at the Kef iQ9 specs and 91 dB sensitivity should be easy on your amp. Unfortunately, the speakers I like under $2k, the Magnepan 1.6, wouldn't be so easy. Tubes? JA, in his measurement sidebar to the Stereophile review, cautions that the KEFs might sound bright with tube amps with high source impedance. In general, it would take a big increase in amp power to be noticeable in casual listening. ...Alright - I emailed Rogue Audio about the specific comment made by Stereophile and linked to the measurements page that demonstrated the impedance spike. Mark O'Brien (who I believe is their main engineer) emailed me back directly almost right away and said their amps had no issues driving 'complex reactive loads', but suggested (based on the Stereophile measurements) that I use the 4ohm taps. Since I come from a world where there are no separate taps for 4ohm loads (all the amps I've had just use the same taps either handle the load or don't) - I have absolutely no idea what effect this will have on things. ...and while it sure would be fun to just take the amp and mess with it, that would be an expensive journey. Man, the choices. It was easier when I had a small budget and no equipment Run some measurements on the room. IF you can't do a RAL from a PC then use test CDs and a RadioShack meter and plot the values. Given your girlfriend factor I bet it's the room. (Not to pry but girlfriend factor shouldn't rate this high unless you want to marry her. Maybe this is a chance to test your priorities.) |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
"Kalman Rubinson" wrote in message ... On 23 Jun 2006 10:12:49 -0700, "j." wrote: Is it pretty common for people to use subs in pure music stereos with floor standing loudspeakers? ...specifically people who listen to classical? Not common but some of us do. While not a classical music lover...I will say that I've found the flexibility of tuning a system with a sub far superior to a typical floor standing set of speakers with technically superior bass response. ScottW |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
Witlessmongrel yapped: I've found the flexibility of tuning a system with a sub far superior to a typical floor standing set of speakers with technically superior bass response. Yes, but you're an idiot. How many music-lovers seriously try to "tune a system" in a room with 7-foot ceilings and a great big honking pool table sitting right in the middle? -- A day without Krooger is like a day without arsenic. |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote in message ... Witlessmongrel yapped: I've found the flexibility of tuning a system with a sub far superior to a typical floor standing set of speakers with technically superior bass response. Yes, but you're an idiot. How many music-lovers seriously try to "tune a system" in a room with 7-foot ceilings and a great big honking pool table sitting right in the middle? I wondered why his coffee table had pockets. But his setup wasn't in that room. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
MD wrote: Run some measurements on the room. IF you can't do a RAL from a PC then use test CDs and a RadioShack meter and plot the values. Given your girlfriend factor I bet it's the room. (Not to pry but girlfriend factor shouldn't rate this high unless you want to marry her. Maybe this is a chance to test your priorities.) I agree that I should be doing some work on the room - I'll see if I can get the software you mentioned. The room is pretty big and sonically has some problems. Unfortunately, I live in a city where space is pretty expensive, so all my rooms are 'multipurpose'. The girlfriend factor might as well be the wife factor. We own the place together and have been living together for many years - add enough shared assets and effectively you're married Jason |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote in message ... Witlessmongrel yapped: I've found the flexibility of tuning a system with a sub far superior to a typical floor standing set of speakers with technically superior bass response. Yes, but you're an idiot. How many music-lovers seriously try to "tune a system" in a room with 7-foot ceilings and a great big honking pool table sitting right in the middle? Thanks for demonstrating who the true idiot is George. If you paid any attention (or perhaps more accurately, if you could pay any attention) you would know that my main system hasn't been in the pool room for years.... and neither room has a 7 foot ceiling...both rooms have vaulted ceilings. Once again the world can see (if anyone cares) that you have no qualms in lying to score points or pursue your vendettas. I've said what an ass you are...thanks for proving it. ScottW |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
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Best upgrade option?
MD wrote: Get an RAL program for your PC and a mic... Ok, so looking into this a bit, the most likely software match I can find for RAL is: http://www.ymec.com/products/rale/ Am I going in the right direction? Any specific sites or references you can recommend for this? I am certainly unexperienced in all of this, but I do agree that probably some changes to the room might be my best bet. I'm thinking something as simple as throwing a rug down on the hard wood just in front of the speakers might help out. Thanks for the help. Jason |
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