John,

I've renamed the thread 'cause this is a big departure.

This is sort of a "what would you do if you only had" question...

What kind of differences do you see with more expensive mics for live
recordings? (I'm thinking about noticable, audible differences - give no
changes in down-stream equipment)

I've used the Sony ECM-DS70P (sub-$100, stereo mini-mic design for mini-disc
recorders)
I've used a few shotgun mics for video recording as well as omnis and
cartiods for same + voice overs.

To borrow a phrase: "let's get retarded" and look at mics like these:
http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/stmic99.html
http://www.riksmusic.com/brauner/vm1s.htm

What level of gear do you need hooked up to these to make use of their
performance?

When using something like a portable MD recorder, where's the law of
diminishing returns?

You could spend $100,000 and hook up one cheap, $20 component only to find
you've thrown away all benefits of the rest of the gear.

I guess what I'm getting at is, if MD or a digital recorder is what you're
capturing the data on, where are the biggest returns going to be seen for
the smallest up-stream investment?

It's been my experience, with limited funds, all technology becomes a choice
of which trade-offs to accept.
With LIMITED gear, what can you do to minimize weaknesses in devices like
the cheap Sony ECM-DS70P mic or an MD recorder? (I'm thinking of stuff as
basic as mic placement or adding a muff...or as costly as an external
pre-amp...and what kind of benefit would those tactics give)

OK...that's a lot of questions but maybe someone would like to take some
stabs at them.



Chris





"John in Detroit" wrote in message
...
Steve Maks wrote:

Yes, it's CD quality and all that, but mics used to tape a live show
aren't exactly studio mics. A recording is only going to be as good as
the weakest link and that is most likely the mics.

Who says you can't use Studio Mics... I have, both my own and those
belonging to others (By feeding off their sound board)


--
John F Davis, in Delightful Detroit. WA8YXM(at)arrl(dot)net
"Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business"
Diabetic? http://community.compuserve.com/diabetes

C.J.Patten wrote:

I guess what I'm getting at is, if MD or a digital recorder is what you're
capturing the data on, where are the biggest returns going to be seen for
the smallest up-stream investment?

The microphone. The MD, and even it's preamp, is more than
adequate to capture the lion's share of the difference
between a DS70P and a Schoeps or even an Oktava MC-012 or to
capture the differences between the sound of large diaphragm
condensers and small diaphragm ones.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

C.J.Patten wrote:
John,

I've renamed the thread 'cause this is a big departure.

This is sort of a "what would you do if you only had" question...

What kind of differences do you see with more expensive mics for live
recordings? (I'm thinking about noticable, audible differences - give no
changes in down-stream equipment)

Good question, And I am not sure I can answer it since each and every
improvement in microphones has been coupled with an imporvement in the
Mini-Disc, (Save one, that was accepting the feed off a professional board)

I also have tinnitius which makes it hard to notice many things

But I can tell you this.. Using some very high quality dynamics, and a
TAPCO mixer, feeding my HI-MD in PCM mode I recorded a live concert last
January, ONe of the first 4 disks full of recordings I made.

The results were very impressive... Even the performers (THey are pros)
were impressed (I recorded with their permission and at their request
sent them a copy of the recording) I do admit to part of what made it
impressive being my placement of the mics (There is a story there too
but later) but it did very well

But with a classical daughter,,, I like to do as good as I can afford.

"C.J.Patten" wrote in message
...
John,

I've renamed the thread 'cause this is a big departure.

This is sort of a "what would you do if you only had" question...

What kind of differences do you see with more expensive mics for live
recordings? (I'm thinking about noticable, audible differences - give no
changes in down-stream equipment)

I've used the Sony ECM-DS70P (sub-$100, stereo mini-mic design for
mini-disc
recorders)
I've used a few shotgun mics for video recording as well as omnis and
cartiods for same + voice overs.

To borrow a phrase: "let's get retarded" and look at mics like these:
http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/stmic99.html
http://www.riksmusic.com/brauner/vm1s.htm

What level of gear do you need hooked up to these to make use of their
performance?

When using something like a portable MD recorder, where's the law of
diminishing returns?

You could spend $100,000 and hook up one cheap, $20 component only to find
you've thrown away all benefits of the rest of the gear.

I guess what I'm getting at is, if MD or a digital recorder is what you're
capturing the data on, where are the biggest returns going to be seen for
the smallest up-stream investment?

It's been my experience, with limited funds, all technology becomes a
choice
of which trade-offs to accept.
With LIMITED gear, what can you do to minimize weaknesses in devices like
the cheap Sony ECM-DS70P mic or an MD recorder? (I'm thinking of stuff as
basic as mic placement or adding a muff...or as costly as an external
pre-amp...and what kind of benefit would those tactics give)

OK...that's a lot of questions but maybe someone would like to take some
stabs at them.



Chris

Mic placement is critical, but too complicated to sum up in a usenet post,
varies widely from room to room, and from system to system. IMO the most
important thing to learn is the dispersion patterns of PA speakers, in
particular the compression horns. That's where the detail is.

The weakest link in the simple rig with binaural electrets is the crappy mic
preamp in the recorder. That Church Audio unit would seem to be the most
cost-effective means of getting around that, and also provides 9V mic power,
which is better than the 5V supplied by the recorder's mic input.

Electret condenser mics are less of a weak point than you might think. The
down side of the Church Audio preamp is that it won't support "studio mics",
but once you optimize the electret signal chain you might not care to make
that step, since it gets quite costly from there and isn't nearly as
cost-effective. I would speculate that the typical proportion of shows
where the conditions are good enough that the shortcomings of electret mics
would be a substantial consideration is about 1 in 12. That's an expensive
8%.

Case in point, check out the Tea Party's recent live recording they've made
available to download:
http://www.theteaparty.de/audio/e_audio.htm
It seems it was done with electret mics and a Sony D8 DAT deck, and the
problems with the recording have nothing to do with the quality of the
signal chain. The mics are too close so the PA is passing them by, leaving
mostly stage sound, and there's despirate need for a de-esser on the vocals.
11 out of 12 shows will have obstacles like that beyond your control, and a
pair of KM184's and a Lunatec V3 won't fix them. Once you find yourself
often saying "man that sounds killer, I only wish I had better mics" then
don't concern yourself with studio caliber gear, since they won't help until
you've got some solid expertise.

And one of the best ways to improve your game is to record in good rooms
with good sound systems and good techs, regardless of who's playing. In my
region I can recommend Zaphod Beeblebrox in Ottawa, Metropolis in Montreal,
Lee's Palace in Toronto, and the Empire Theater in Belleville, each have
good mic positions availble, but I'm not going to take the fun out of it for
you! I do suggest buying/building a variety of clamping mic stands, I
rarely use a standard floor stand anymore. Nothing better than having a
protected/inaccessible recording rig rolling while you stroll about the
room!

Wow. Very cool! I'm in Ottawa and my friends play Zaphod's with some
regularity (Sarah Hallman, Brian Simms, Adam Fogo, Hollow Water, The
Hollowings, Autonomous Unit, Red Fey).

Thanks very much for the wealth of info! Lots more to Google on and learn.

Let me add one mo I now have access to several Sony cams that have manual
mic levels. Most will have mini-plug mic-ins, not XLR.
Am I going to be at a big disadvantage trying to use it instead of a DAT, MD
or digital recorder to capture the audio? (I mean, it does do Stereo,
16/44.1)

Where abouts are you located if I might ask? (feel free to email offlist)

Thanks again!

Chris


"Zigakly" wrote in message
...

"C.J.Patten" wrote in message
...
John,

I've renamed the thread 'cause this is a big departure.

This is sort of a "what would you do if you only had" question...

What kind of differences do you see with more expensive mics for live
recordings? (I'm thinking about noticable, audible differences - give no
changes in down-stream equipment)

I've used the Sony ECM-DS70P (sub-$100, stereo mini-mic design for
mini-disc
recorders)
I've used a few shotgun mics for video recording as well as omnis and
cartiods for same + voice overs.

To borrow a phrase: "let's get retarded" and look at mics like these:
http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/stmic99.html
http://www.riksmusic.com/brauner/vm1s.htm

What level of gear do you need hooked up to these to make use of their
performance?

When using something like a portable MD recorder, where's the law of
diminishing returns?

You could spend $100,000 and hook up one cheap, $20 component only to
find
you've thrown away all benefits of the rest of the gear.

I guess what I'm getting at is, if MD or a digital recorder is what
you're
capturing the data on, where are the biggest returns going to be seen for
the smallest up-stream investment?

It's been my experience, with limited funds, all technology becomes a
choice
of which trade-offs to accept.
With LIMITED gear, what can you do to minimize weaknesses in devices like
the cheap Sony ECM-DS70P mic or an MD recorder? (I'm thinking of stuff as
basic as mic placement or adding a muff...or as costly as an external
pre-amp...and what kind of benefit would those tactics give)

OK...that's a lot of questions but maybe someone would like to take some
stabs at them.



Chris

Mic placement is critical, but too complicated to sum up in a usenet post,
varies widely from room to room, and from system to system. IMO the most
important thing to learn is the dispersion patterns of PA speakers, in
particular the compression horns. That's where the detail is.

The weakest link in the simple rig with binaural electrets is the crappy
mic
preamp in the recorder. That Church Audio unit would seem to be the most
cost-effective means of getting around that, and also provides 9V mic
power,
which is better than the 5V supplied by the recorder's mic input.

Electret condenser mics are less of a weak point than you might think.
The
down side of the Church Audio preamp is that it won't support "studio
mics",
but once you optimize the electret signal chain you might not care to make
that step, since it gets quite costly from there and isn't nearly as
cost-effective. I would speculate that the typical proportion of shows
where the conditions are good enough that the shortcomings of electret
mics
would be a substantial consideration is about 1 in 12. That's an
expensive
8%.

Case in point, check out the Tea Party's recent live recording they've
made
available to download:
http://www.theteaparty.de/audio/e_audio.htm
It seems it was done with electret mics and a Sony D8 DAT deck, and the
problems with the recording have nothing to do with the quality of the
signal chain. The mics are too close so the PA is passing them by,
leaving
mostly stage sound, and there's despirate need for a de-esser on the
vocals.
11 out of 12 shows will have obstacles like that beyond your control, and
a
pair of KM184's and a Lunatec V3 won't fix them. Once you find yourself
often saying "man that sounds killer, I only wish I had better mics" then
don't concern yourself with studio caliber gear, since they won't help
until
you've got some solid expertise.

And one of the best ways to improve your game is to record in good rooms
with good sound systems and good techs, regardless of who's playing. In
my
region I can recommend Zaphod Beeblebrox in Ottawa, Metropolis in
Montreal,
Lee's Palace in Toronto, and the Empire Theater in Belleville, each have
good mic positions availble, but I'm not going to take the fun out of it
for
you! I do suggest buying/building a variety of clamping mic stands, I
rarely use a standard floor stand anymore. Nothing better than having a
protected/inaccessible recording rig rolling while you stroll about the
room!

What kind of differences do you see with more expensive mics for live
recordings? (I'm thinking about noticable, audible differences - give no
changes in down-stream equipment)

I compared a midpriced Audio Technica SP cardioids to their high end ones
(tiny, coakie mounted) and there was a huge difference. OTOH, DPA 4060
omnis, costing 3 times my Sennheiser MKE-2 omnis do not sound 3 times
better, unless coupled with their MMA6000 pre-amp, which makes it 6 times
more expensive and yes, better. I'd say SP's highest end AT omnis or
Sennheiser's MKE-2 will give you the best sound in the under the $500
department for omnis (I'm referring to tiny croakie mounted from
microphonemaddness or SP). In the cardioid department it is the Sennheiser
MKE-40 from microphnemaddness or the CMC-8 from SP. - Noam

I just used a set of CMC-8's with a battery box last week at a queens
of the stone age show. I will post a link to some samples after I get
some made. I have transferred it to my PC (effortlessly I might add),
and just need to post some clips.

The results in my opinion are VERY impressive. I used to use cheaper
sony mic's and they pale in comparison... I have a MZ-RH10 and
recorded in PCM mode via line in. No noise, very low crowd (and the
crowd was noisy to me!), and excellent range. For $400 with a battery
box, they are highly impressive.

I just used a set of CMC-8's with a battery box

which CMC-8 pick up option? omnis or cardioids? - Noam

cardoid. I am going to be buying omni's soon as well. I like options