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#1
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Here you go George.
I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate.
Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
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#2
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Paul Dormer said:
"Trevor Wilson" emitted : I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml I find those numbers scary. Scary indeed, but not surprising. Times are uncertain, and returning to biblical principles may be a reaction to perceived Islamic danger. -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
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#3
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"Sander deWaal" wrote in message news  Paul Dormer said: "Trevor Wilson" emitted : I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml I find those numbers scary. Scary indeed, but not surprising. Times are uncertain, and returning to biblical principles may be a reaction to perceived Islamic danger. -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
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#4
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"Sander deWaal" wrote in message news Paul Dormer said: "Trevor Wilson" emitted : I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml I find those numbers scary. Scary indeed, but not surprising. Times are uncertain, and returning to biblical principles may be a reaction to perceived Islamic danger. No, I think the numbers would have been similar before 9/11 Once an evolutionist, its hard to go back to creationsism, something you are absolutely sure is impossible. |
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#5
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If by "evolutionist" you mean somebody who does not believe in
"creationism", then you have it wrong. Not believing something is true is not the same as believing it's impossible. For example, my "belief" in evolution is not a belief at all -- it's a provisional acceptance of the most likely explanation for the known facts. I don't say creationism is impossible, except in the literal sense. I do say that creationism is impossible to prove in any sense. That sounds about right. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
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#6
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Sander deWaal wrote:
Paul Dormer said: "Trevor Wilson" emitted : I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml I find those numbers scary. Scary indeed, but not surprising. Why scary ? Times are uncertain, Why ? Not more than yesterday... Perhaps have you a "prophetic" statement to share with us ? and returning to biblical principles may be a reaction to perceived Islamic danger. "Islamic danger" seems to be your today obsession. Is it this "danger" which drives you to write that "times are uncertain" ? If yes you are nearly mature to join the 67% of Bush's voters... |
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#7
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"Paul Dormer" wrote in message ... "Sander deWaal" emitted : I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml I find those numbers scary. Scary indeed, but not surprising. I'm always surprised by people who are consumed by faith.. unless they're about to snuff it of course. I doubt that most people who believe that God had a hand in creation are consumed by faith. I think the most likely scenario is that they have some amount of faith and find the idea of a universe devoid of some sort of supreme conciousness to be unthinkable. It doesn't appear that all that many of them are lving any sort of life that strictley adheres to any organized religious principles. There are place in the country where fundamentalsim is the norm and education is the rarity, those people scare me. You may recall the Scopes Monkey Trial where the ACLU paid for the defense of teacher who taught evolution in Tennessee, in violation of state law. The law that the teacher was being prosocuted under, wasn't repealed until 1967! Times are uncertain, Always has been. and returning to biblical principles may be a reaction to perceived Islamic danger. "God willing.." |
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#8
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Lionel said:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml I find those numbers scary. Scary indeed, but not surprising. Why scary ? Believing in God, Allah or whatever deity scares me. Religion changes people into racists and intolerant dogmatics. Times are uncertain, Why ? Not more than yesterday... Perhaps have you a "prophetic" statement to share with us ? Economical problems, many people losing their job, danger of terrorist attacks...........enough for most to look for relief into religion. This can be observed any time a war is on, or economics go bad. and returning to biblical principles may be a reaction to perceived Islamic danger. "Islamic danger" seems to be your today obsession. Is it this "danger" which drives you to write that "times are uncertain" ? Perceived Islamic danger. And you know better than that. If yes you are nearly mature to join the 67% of Bush's voters... Excuse me?You think you know me at all because of a few usenet posts from me that you've read? If I were to do the same to you, you'd get responses from me very different from this one. -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
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#9
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Sander deWaal wrote:
Lionel said: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml I find those numbers scary. Scary indeed, but not surprising. Why scary ? Believing in God, Allah or whatever deity scares me. Religion changes people into. No it's fear which changes people into racists and intolerant dogmatics. Times are uncertain, Why ? Not more than yesterday... Perhaps have you a "prophetic" statement to share with us ? Economical problems, many people losing their job, danger of terrorist attacks...........enough for most to look for relief into religion. This can be observed any time a war is on, or economics go bad. Times are like the weather, always uncertain. The people memory for "times" is as bad as people memory fo weather. :-( and returning to biblical principles may be a reaction to perceived Islamic danger. "Islamic danger" seems to be your today obsession. Is it this "danger" which drives you to write that "times are uncertain" ? Perceived Islamic danger. And you know better than that. Islamic danger is the *JOKE*. If yes you are nearly mature to join the 67% of Bush's voters... Excuse me?You think you know me at all because of a few usenet posts from me that you've read? If I were to do the same to you, you'd get responses from me very different from this one. No difference between you and me. I wrote "IF", and you answered "IF". |
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#10
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"Sander deWaal" wrote in message ... Lionel said: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml I find those numbers scary. Scary indeed, but not surprising. Why scary ? Believing in God, Allah or whatever deity scares me. Religion changes people into racists and intolerant dogmatics. Martin Luther King was a racist? The problem with religion, at least with Christianity, is that the bible can be interpreted to support any cause of conviction one may hold. they you can go and say that your actions are OK because tehy are backed up by scripture. On the other hand there are people like MLK whose aims were to do good works and that God was for everybody and that meant no race was more favored than another. In the mind of a good person, good deeds can indeed come from religion. In the hands of an ignorant or mean spirited person, can come great evil. Times are uncertain, Why ? Not more than yesterday... Perhaps have you a "prophetic" statement to share with us ? Economical problems, many people losing their job, danger of terrorist attacks...........enough for most to look for relief into religion. This can be observed any time a war is on, or economics go bad. and returning to biblical principles may be a reaction to perceived Islamic danger. "Islamic danger" seems to be your today obsession. Is it this "danger" which drives you to write that "times are uncertain" ? Perceived Islamic danger. And you know better than that. If yes you are nearly mature to join the 67% of Bush's voters... Excuse me?You think you know me at all because of a few usenet posts from me that you've read? If I were to do the same to you, you'd get responses from me very different from this one. -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
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#11
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"Lionel" wrote in message ... Sander deWaal wrote: Lionel said: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml I find those numbers scary. Scary indeed, but not surprising. Why scary ? Believing in God, Allah or whatever deity scares me. Religion changes people into. No it's fear which changes people into racists and intolerant dogmatics. Times are uncertain, Why ? Not more than yesterday... Perhaps have you a "prophetic" statement to share with us ? Economical problems, many people losing their job, danger of terrorist attacks...........enough for most to look for relief into religion. This can be observed any time a war is on, or economics go bad. Times are like the weather, always uncertain. The people memory for "times" is as bad as people memory fo weather. :-( and returning to biblical principles may be a reaction to perceived Islamic danger. "Islamic danger" seems to be your today obsession. Is it this "danger" which drives you to write that "times are uncertain" ? Perceived Islamic danger. And you know better than that. Islamic danger is the *JOKE*. Tell that to the Israelis, or the Jewish people in France where I understand there is a muslim radio station broadcasting non-stop anti-semitism. If yes you are nearly mature to join the 67% of Bush's voters... Excuse me?You think you know me at all because of a few usenet posts from me that you've read? If I were to do the same to you, you'd get responses from me very different from this one. No difference between you and me. I wrote "IF", and you answered "IF". |
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#13
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"S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Trevor Wilson" Date: 11/25/2004 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au And to think Mikey was taking issue with Michael Moore's claim that Americans are stupid. Clearly most are. If being religious makes you stupid, then clearly most of the world is. |
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#14
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From: "Clyde Slick"
Date: 11/25/2004 7:25 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "Sander deWaal" wrote in message news Paul Dormer said: "Trevor Wilson" emitted : I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml I find those numbers scary. Scary indeed, but not surprising. Times are uncertain, and returning to biblical principles may be a reaction to perceived Islamic danger. No, I think the numbers would have been similar before 9/11 Once an evolutionist, its hard to go back to creationsism, something you are absolutely sure is impossible. And yet we clearly are going back as a nation. I doubt the numbers would have been anything like this in the early sixties when science was still seen as a good thing. |
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#15
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"Michael McKelvy" said:
Believing in God, Allah or whatever deity scares me. Religion changes people into racists and intolerant dogmatics. Martin Luther King was a racist? Of course there are exceptions. I was generalizing, which is in general (....) a bad thing. However, the majority of Christians (or Moslims, whatever) are just a mindless herd, following "leaders" that take advantage of their position. Kind of like politicians. You're right, I dislike both. -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
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#16
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"Michael McKelvy" said:
Perceived Islamic danger. And you know better than that. Islamic danger is the *JOKE*. Tell that to the Israelis, or the Jewish people in France where I understand there is a muslim radio station broadcasting non-stop anti-semitism. Tell it to the victims of 9/11, to the victims of Bali, to Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Oh, and Salman Rushdie, too. Perhaps not in the news in the rest of Europe and the US, but there have been many more cases of (individual) threats, murderings and violence by proclaimed Islamics in the Netherlands. Like I wrote earlier, public opinion here is getting grim. Holland is known for its tolerance, but it seems the limits have been reached. Large groups of Islamics simply don't have respect for the culture they're living in in Europe. They still think all of us should be converted to Islam. Whether or not this is in the Koran, is irrelevant. It's the interpretation that we have to live with every day. My Turkish friends, of which most are Muslims, have adapted enough to realize that those medieval standpoints hold no water in a modern werstern society. The same intolerance can be found among Christian extremists, though they won't be found that soon with guns or C4 to make their point clear. They're just as guilty of intolerance and hatred, though. The human race still has got lots to learn, and it starts with simple respect for eachother. BUT: if I don't get respect from you, don't expect me to give you any. -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
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#17
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Sander deWaal wrote:
"Michael McKelvy" said: Perceived Islamic danger. And you know better than that. Islamic danger is the *JOKE*. Tell that to the Israelis, or the Jewish people in France where I understand there is a muslim radio station broadcasting non-stop anti-semitism. Tell it to the victims of 9/11, to the victims of Bali, to Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Oh, and Salman Rushdie, too. Perhaps not in the news in the rest of Europe and the US, but there have been many more cases of (individual) threats, murderings and violence by proclaimed Islamics in the Netherlands. Like I wrote earlier, public opinion here is getting grim. Holland is known for its tolerance, but it seems the limits have been reached. Large groups of Islamics simply don't have respect for the culture they're living in in Europe. They still think all of us should be converted to Islam. Whether or not this is in the Koran, is irrelevant. It's the interpretation that we have to live with every day. My Turkish friends, of which most are Muslims, have adapted enough to realize that those medieval standpoints hold no water in a modern werstern society. The same intolerance can be found among Christian extremists, though they won't be found that soon with guns or C4 to make their point clear. They're just as guilty of intolerance and hatred, though. Actually, a few members of the extreme pro-choice (anti-abortion) movement in the US *have* been found with guns and/or explosives. Unfortunately, at least one doctor has been murdered and several abortion clinics bombed by American extremists.  The human race still has got lots to learn, and it starts with simple respect for eachother. BUT: if I don't get respect from you, don't expect me to give you any. -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " Bruce J. Richman |
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#18
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From: "Michael McKelvy"
Date: 11/26/2004 1:18 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: et "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Trevor Wilson" Date: 11/25/2004 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au And to think Mikey was taking issue with Michael Moore's claim that Americans are stupid. Clearly most are. If being religious makes you stupid, then clearly most of the world is. Most of the populations of most of the first world countries do not suffer from this mass stupidity over evolution and science in general. It isn't about religion it is about rational thought. Clearly rational thought is painfully lacking in America. That should be cause for concern. It also seems to confirm that which you were so upset about. Looks like Michael Moore pegged our nation's people. Why were you so upset about it? |
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#19
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"Michael McKelvy" wrote in message nk.net... "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Trevor Wilson" Date: 11/25/2004 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au And to think Mikey was taking issue with Michael Moore's claim that Americans are stupid. Clearly most are. If being religious makes you stupid, then clearly most of the world is. **And that's news because......? -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
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#20
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"S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Clyde Slick" Date: 11/25/2004 7:25 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "Sander deWaal" wrote in message news Paul Dormer said: "Trevor Wilson" emitted : I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml I find those numbers scary. Scary indeed, but not surprising. Times are uncertain, and returning to biblical principles may be a reaction to perceived Islamic danger. No, I think the numbers would have been similar before 9/11 Once an evolutionist, its hard to go back to creationsism, something you are absolutely sure is impossible. And yet we clearly are going back as a nation. I doubt the numbers would have been anything like this in the early sixties when science was still seen as a good thing. What do you suppose changed that perception? |
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#21
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"Sander deWaal" wrote in message ... "Michael McKelvy" said: Believing in God, Allah or whatever deity scares me. Religion changes people into racists and intolerant dogmatics. Martin Luther King was a racist? Of course there are exceptions. I was generalizing, which is in general (....) a bad thing. However, the majority of Christians (or Moslims, whatever) are just a mindless herd, following "leaders" that take advantage of their position. Kind of like politicians. You're right, I dislike both. I'm not sure I agree with the assessment that the majority are a mindless herd. IME Christians tend to be more non-chalant about their faith. There are people who attend church every week and then go home and live their lives with a nod and a wink towards their faith, and then there are those who believe absolutely, IME they are the minority. I can's speak to the way Muslims treat their faith here since I don't know many. The ones I've met tend to be glad to be away from the extremist in their home country. |
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#22
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"S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Michael McKelvy" Date: 11/26/2004 1:18 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: et "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Trevor Wilson" Date: 11/25/2004 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au And to think Mikey was taking issue with Michael Moore's claim that Americans are stupid. Clearly most are. If being religious makes you stupid, then clearly most of the world is. Most of the populations of most of the first world countries do not suffer from this mass stupidity over evolution and science in general. Can you cite any evidence for this belief? Most of Europe is Christian, is it not? Do they not believe in creationism? The rest of the world is pretty much either Muslim, Budist, or Hindu, all of which have some sort of creation myth do they not? It isn't about religion it is about rational thought. For me religion is the opposite of rational thought. Clearly rational thought is painfully lacking in America. Depends on what you're talking about. If you mean as it pertains to allowing people to live their lives and make a living, I'd say we're doing well. Regarding political discourse, not so much. That should be cause for concern. It also seems to confirm that which you were so upset about. Looks like Michael Moore pegged our nation's people. Why were you so upset about it? I'm not upset by that in and of itself. It's the sneering, smarmy, way he looks down his nose at those who don't buy his jaundiced views. It's also his dishonesty. If what he believes is true he should be able to make his case much more honestly, with out the editing. I've not read any objective critique of his work that finds his methods to honest or even making a pretense at objectivity. I think he's a prefect example of a lack of rational thought. |
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#23
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From: "Michael McKelvy"
Date: 11/26/2004 4:55 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Clyde Slick" Date: 11/25/2004 7:25 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "Sander deWaal" wrote in message news
Paul Dormer said:"Trevor Wilson" emitted : I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml I find those numbers scary. Scary indeed, but not surprising. Times are uncertain, and returning to biblical principles may be a reaction to perceived Islamic danger. No, I think the numbers would have been similar before 9/11 Once an evolutionist, its hard to go back to creationsism, something you are absolutely sure is impossible. And yet we clearly are going back as a nation. I doubt the numbers would have been anything like this in the early sixties when science was still seen as a good thing. What do you suppose changed that perception? I don't know. It seemed to happen away from the spot light. |
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#24
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"S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Michael McKelvy" Date: 11/26/2004 1:18 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: et "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Trevor Wilson" Date: 11/25/2004 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au And to think Mikey was taking issue with Michael Moore's claim that Americans are stupid. Clearly most are. If being religious makes you stupid, then clearly most of the world is. Most of the populations of most of the first world countries do not suffer from this mass stupidity over evolution and science in general. It isn't about religion it is about rational thought. Clearly rational thought is painfully lacking in America. That should be cause for concern. It also seems to confirm that which you were so upset about. Looks like Michael Moore pegged our nation's people. Why were you so upset about it? I think the shallow ones are those who stereotype entire nations based on one controversial topic. One could also easily make the case that rational thought is lacking in many actors. Does that make everyone working in Hollywood stupid? ScottW |
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#25
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"S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Michael McKelvy" Date: 11/26/2004 4:55 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Clyde Slick" Date: 11/25/2004 7:25 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "Sander deWaal" wrote in message news
Paul Dormer said:"Trevor Wilson" emitted : I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml I find those numbers scary. Scary indeed, but not surprising. Times are uncertain, and returning to biblical principles may be a reaction to perceived Islamic danger. No, I think the numbers would have been similar before 9/11 Once an evolutionist, its hard to go back to creationsism, something you are absolutely sure is impossible. And yet we clearly are going back as a nation. I doubt the numbers would have been anything like this in the early sixties when science was still seen as a good thing. What do you suppose changed that perception? I don't know. It seemed to happen away from the spot light. Realization that living through chemistry isn't better, perhaps? ScottW |
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#26
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"Sander deWaal" wrote in message ... "Michael McKelvy" said: The same intolerance can be found among Christian extremists, Really? I've never heard a christian sermon advocating killing someone if they held different beliefs. I never heard a christian sermon claiming that people without christian faith were only entitled to menial jobs. Trying to equate Christian intolerance with Islamic intolerance in modern times is going to be a very hard case to make. ScottW |
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#27
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From: "Michael McKelvy"
Date: 11/26/2004 5:15 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: et "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Michael McKelvy" Date: 11/26/2004 1:18 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: et "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Trevor Wilson" Date: 11/25/2004 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au And to think Mikey was taking issue with Michael Moore's claim that Americans are stupid. Clearly most are. If being religious makes you stupid, then clearly most of the world is. Most of the populations of most of the first world countries do not suffer from this mass stupidity over evolution and science in general. Can you cite any evidence for this belief? I'm sure I could with a little search on line. I'm not going to bother unless to tell me you think that Europe has the same phenomenon of a majority of people believing in creationism. Most of Europe is Christian, is it not? Not fundimentalists who don't believe life evolved. That is actually quite rare in Europe. Do they not believe in creationism? Very very few. The rest of the world is pretty much either Muslim, Budist, or Hindu, all of which have some sort of creation myth do they not? Myth yes. And there are fundimentalist Muslems and Jews that also take their respective bibles literally. They are also a minority amoung Jews and Muslems. Just as fundimentalist Christians are amoung first world Christians, excluding the U.S. It isn't about religion it is about rational thought. For me religion is the opposite of rational thought. You paint religion with a rather big brush. What, for instance, do you find irrational about Deism? You know, the common religious belief held by our forefathers who formed this nation. Clearly rational thought is painfully lacking in America. Depends on what you're talking about. If you mean as it pertains to allowing people to live their lives and make a living, I'd say we're doing well. Are you not following the thread? I was clearly talking about the rational thought that would preclude the belief in such primative superstitions as the literal belief in Genesis. Regarding political discourse, not so much. I wasn't talking about that either. That should be cause for concern. It also seems to confirm that which you were so upset about. Looks like Michael Moore pegged our nation's people. Why were you so upset about it? I'm not upset by that in and of itself. It's the sneering, smarmy, way he looks down his nose at those who don't buy his jaundiced views. You seemed to be particularly bothered by his comment that Americans are stupid. Now you are not upset by it? Hmmm. It's also his dishonesty. If what he believes is true he should be able to make his case much more honestly, with out the editing. I've not read any objective critique of his work that finds his methods to honest or even making a pretense at objectivity. Then why make such an issue over his assertion that Americans are stupid? It looks pretty accurate at this point. I think he's a prefect example of a lack of rational thought. Funny, you get that a lot too. Opinions abound. IMO one has to be quite ignorant, quite stupid or quite scared to belive in creationism. |
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#28
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"S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Michael McKelvy" Date: 11/26/2004 4:55 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Clyde Slick" Date: 11/25/2004 7:25 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "Sander deWaal" wrote in message news
Paul Dormer said:"Trevor Wilson" emitted : I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml I find those numbers scary. Scary indeed, but not surprising. Times are uncertain, and returning to biblical principles may be a reaction to perceived Islamic danger. No, I think the numbers would have been similar before 9/11 Once an evolutionist, its hard to go back to creationsism, something you are absolutely sure is impossible. And yet we clearly are going back as a nation. I doubt the numbers would have been anything like this in the early sixties when science was still seen as a good thing. What do you suppose changed that perception? I don't know. It seemed to happen away from the spot light. It's a perception I don't share. I think there was an effort to change that perception which gave birth to what we now know as the environmental movement. There are still some kinds of science that are perceived as good, stem cell research, eco-science are some examples. I think there is also a perception that research into space and learning about the things that NASA looks into are seen as god science by many, but others see it as a lot of money for little return. I also think that the nuclear arms race has much to do with taking the gloss of science. Throw in Love Canal a newly discovered hole in the ozone, and acid rain, and you have a PR nightmare for scientific research. Phrases like we can put a man on the Moon but we can't find a cure for Cancer didn't help much either. I still think that it wouldn't take much to change that perception but that the economy need some more freedom to innovate. Americans seem an enormously optimistic group on the whole, but trying to steer the economy into certain directions as I believe has been done, has not worked to our betterment. Indeed the areas like electronics, computers, cell phones, etc, are areas that were relatively free form interference and "guidance." My 2 cents worth. |
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#29
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"S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Michael McKelvy" Date: 11/26/2004 5:15 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: et "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Michael McKelvy" Date: 11/26/2004 1:18 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: et "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Trevor Wilson" Date: 11/25/2004 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au And to think Mikey was taking issue with Michael Moore's claim that Americans are stupid. Clearly most are. If being religious makes you stupid, then clearly most of the world is. Most of the populations of most of the first world countries do not suffer from this mass stupidity over evolution and science in general. Can you cite any evidence for this belief? I'm sure I could with a little search on line. I'm not going to bother unless to tell me you think that Europe has the same phenomenon of a majority of people believing in creationism. Most of Europe is Christian, is it not? Not fundimentalists who don't believe life evolved. That is actually quite rare in Europe. Do they not believe in creationism? Very very few. The rest of the world is pretty much either Muslim, Budist, or Hindu, all of which have some sort of creation myth do they not? Myth yes. And there are fundimentalist Muslems and Jews that also take their respective bibles literally. They are also a minority amoung Jews and Muslems. Just as fundimentalist Christians are amoung first world Christians, excluding the U.S. It isn't about religion it is about rational thought. For me religion is the opposite of rational thought. You paint religion with a rather big brush. What, for instance, do you find irrational about Deism? You know, the common religious belief held by our forefathers who formed this nation. Clearly rational thought is painfully lacking in America. Depends on what you're talking about. If you mean as it pertains to allowing people to live their lives and make a living, I'd say we're doing well. Are you not following the thread? I was clearly talking about the rational thought that would preclude the belief in such primative superstitions as the literal belief in Genesis. Regarding political discourse, not so much. I wasn't talking about that either. That should be cause for concern. It also seems to confirm that which you were so upset about. Looks like Michael Moore pegged our nation's people. Why were you so upset about it? I'm not upset by that in and of itself. It's the sneering, smarmy, way he looks down his nose at those who don't buy his jaundiced views. You seemed to be particularly bothered by his comment that Americans are stupid. Now you are not upset by it? Hmmm. I wasn't upset so much by the fact that he said it, but by the fact that people were denying he said it. It's also his dishonesty. If what he believes is true he should be able to make his case much more honestly, with out the editing. I've not read any objective critique of his work that finds his methods to honest or even making a pretense at objectivity. Then why make such an issue over his assertion that Americans are stupid? It looks pretty accurate at this point. It's still not something I entirely believe, but again, it was that it was being denied that he said it. I think he's a prefect example of a lack of rational thought. Funny, you get that a lot too. I think the kind of freedom I enorse and the amount of government suport it would remove frightens people. I also think that there ought not to be contradictions. If it's wrong for the average Joe to take something he didn't earn by force, it can't be OK for the government to essentially do the same thing. Opinions abound. IMO one has to be quite ignorant, quite stupid or quite scared to belive in creationism. My own experience is that people tend to mix a bit of Darwin with a bit of God had a hand in it also. The idea of no God directing things is hard for people who've been fed a diet of some sort of religion all their lives. They think there's a God of some sort who created everything but it was longer ago than the creationists want them to believe, so therefore belief in evolution is OK too. I doubt very seriously that there are many hard core creationists. |
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Bruce J. Richman wrote:
Sander deWaal wrote: My Turkish friends, of which most are Muslims, have adapted enough to realize that those medieval standpoints hold no water in a modern werstern society. So we come back to the begining. This has nothing to do with religion. The same intolerance can be found among Christian extremists, though they won't be found that soon with guns or C4 to make their point clear. They're just as guilty of intolerance and hatred, though. Just one example : France 1989 - Movie : "The Last Temptation of Christ" Actually, a few members of the extreme pro-choice (anti-abortion) movement in the US *have* been found with guns and/or explosives. Unfortunately, at least one doctor has been murdered and several abortion clinics bombed by American extremists. The human race still has got lots to learn, and it starts with simple respect for eachother. BUT: if I don't get respect from you, don't expect me to give you any. This is the keyword, the Respect. When you judge people in large group, political, religious, ethnic... you lack of respect for at leat 50% of them. -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " Bruce J. Richman |
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#32
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"ScottW" said:
The same intolerance can be found among Christian extremists, Really? I've never heard a christian sermon advocating killing someone if they held different beliefs. I never heard a christian sermon claiming that people without christian faith were only entitled to menial jobs. Trying to equate Christian intolerance with Islamic intolerance in modern times is going to be a very hard case to make. Northern Ireland? -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
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From: "Michael McKelvy"
Date: 11/26/2004 7:55 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: t "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Michael McKelvy" Date: 11/26/2004 5:15 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: et "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Michael McKelvy" Date: 11/26/2004 1:18 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: et "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Trevor Wilson" Date: 11/25/2004 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au And to think Mikey was taking issue with Michael Moore's claim that Americans are stupid. Clearly most are. If being religious makes you stupid, then clearly most of the world is. Most of the populations of most of the first world countries do not suffer from this mass stupidity over evolution and science in general. Can you cite any evidence for this belief? I'm sure I could with a little search on line. I'm not going to bother unless to tell me you think that Europe has the same phenomenon of a majority of people believing in creationism. Most of Europe is Christian, is it not? Not fundimentalists who don't believe life evolved. That is actually quite rare in Europe. Do they not believe in creationism? Very very few. The rest of the world is pretty much either Muslim, Budist, or Hindu, all of which have some sort of creation myth do they not? Myth yes. And there are fundimentalist Muslems and Jews that also take their respective bibles literally. They are also a minority amoung Jews and Muslems. Just as fundimentalist Christians are amoung first world Christians, excluding the U.S. It isn't about religion it is about rational thought. For me religion is the opposite of rational thought. You paint religion with a rather big brush. What, for instance, do you find irrational about Deism? You know, the common religious belief held by our forefathers who formed this nation. Clearly rational thought is painfully lacking in America. Depends on what you're talking about. If you mean as it pertains to allowing people to live their lives and make a living, I'd say we're doing well. Are you not following the thread? I was clearly talking about the rational thought that would preclude the belief in such primative superstitions as the literal belief in Genesis. Regarding political discourse, not so much. I wasn't talking about that either. That should be cause for concern. It also seems to confirm that which you were so upset about. Looks like Michael Moore pegged our nation's people. Why were you so upset about it? I'm not upset by that in and of itself. It's the sneering, smarmy, way he looks down his nose at those who don't buy his jaundiced views. You seemed to be particularly bothered by his comment that Americans are stupid. Now you are not upset by it? Hmmm. I wasn't upset so much by the fact that he said it, but by the fact that people were denying he said it. Funny, that never happened. It's also his dishonesty. If what he believes is true he should be able to make his case much more honestly, with out the editing. I've not read any objective critique of his work that finds his methods to honest or even making a pretense at objectivity. Then why make such an issue over his assertion that Americans are stupid? It looks pretty accurate at this point. It's still not something I entirely believe, but again, it was that it was being denied that he said it. It wasn't being denied. I think he's a prefect example of a lack of rational thought. Funny, you get that a lot too. I think the kind of freedom I enorse and the amount of government suport it would remove frightens people. I also think that there ought not to be contradictions. If it's wrong for the average Joe to take something he didn't earn by force, it can't be OK for the government to essentially do the same thing. I think you think in very very simplistic terms. The world is far too complicated for your ideas. Just my opinion. Opinions abound. IMO one has to be quite ignorant, quite stupid or quite scared to belive in creationism. My own experience is that people tend to mix a bit of Darwin with a bit of God had a hand in it also. That is quite different unless you are talking about those who believe complexity is proof of god the designer. I see nothing irrational about believing a god set it all in motion. The idea of no God directing things is hard for people who've been fed a diet of some sort of religion all their lives. They think there's a God of some sort who created everything but it was longer ago than the creationists want them to believe, so therefore belief in evolution is OK too. I think you are shooting from the hip. There are very specific beliefs about these issues held by various groups. I doubt very seriously that there are many hard core creationists. Then you are ignoring the data presented at the begining of this threadalong with a **** load of other easily accessable data. Every poll I have seen has returned the alarming results that in fact the majority of Americans are stupid enough, ignorant enough or scared enough to believe in the primative superstition that the bible is literally true. I find that fact quite unnerving. |
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 23:01:57 +0000, Paul Dormer
wrote: "Trevor Wilson" emitted : I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml I find those numbers scary. Well if 65 percent of the public want it, then I guess it should be taught. |
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On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:57:50 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote: I doubt that most people who believe that God had a hand in creation are consumed by faith. I think the most likely scenario is that they have some amount of faith and find the idea of a universe devoid of some sort of supreme conciousness to be unthinkable. It doesn't appear that all that many of them are lving any sort of life that strictley adheres to any organized religious principles. There are place in the country where fundamentalsim is the norm and education is the rarity, those people scare me. Maybe they got an e-mail saying God did it. |
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On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 03:45:23 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote: I still think that it wouldn't take much to change that perception but that the economy need some more freedom to innovate. Cut taxes and eliminate public education, and we'll have that 65 percent up to 99 percent in no time! |
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#38
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jak163 wrote:
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:57:50 GMT, "Michael McKelvy" wrote: I doubt that most people who believe that God had a hand in creation are consumed by faith. I think the most likely scenario is that they have some amount of faith and find the idea of a universe devoid of some sort of supreme conciousness to be unthinkable. It doesn't appear that all that many of them are lving any sort of life that strictley adheres to any organized religious principles. There are place in the country where fundamentalsim is the norm and education is the rarity, those people scare me. Maybe they got an e-mail saying God did it. I wonder- can the voices in a person's head directing them to lie about others (auditory command hallucinations) also send them emails? If so, that would be a milestone in the ........er........*anals" of pseudoscientific research ! Today's thougtt about religion and behavior: If a person talks to God, that is called "praying". If God talks to a person, that is called "schizophrenia". Bruce J. Richman |
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#39
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McKelvy said:
That should be cause for concern. It also seems to confirm that which you were so upset about. Looks like Michael Moore pegged our nation's people. Why were you so upset about it? I'm not upset by that in and of itself. It's the sneering, smarmy, way he looks down his nose at those who don't buy his jaundiced views. It's also his dishonesty. If what he believes is true he should be able to make his case much more honestly, with out the editing. I've not read any objective critique of his work that finds his methods to honest or even making a pretense at objectivity. That's funny, because people have been offering instances of objective critiques of his work to you for weeks now. In fact, someone did it today. No wonder you think there's nothing wrong with Arny. You see what you want to see. Boon |
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#40
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McKelvy said:
That should be cause for concern. It also seems to confirm that which you were so upset about. Looks like Michael Moore pegged our nation's people. Why were you so upset about it? I'm not upset by that in and of itself. It's the sneering, smarmy, way he looks down his nose at those who don't buy his jaundiced views. It's also his dishonesty. If what he believes is true he should be able to make his case much more honestly, with out the editing. I've not read any objective critique of his work that finds his methods to honest or even making a pretense at objectivity. That's funny, because people have been offering instances of objective critiques of his work to you for weeks now. In fact, someone did it today. No wonder you think there's nothing wrong with Arny. You see what you want to see. Boon They were meant for each other. I have it on good authority from a confidential source who contacted me via telegraph (morse code) that McKelvy used to be employed as a polygraph tester. Unfortunately, they had to let him go after finding out that every time they hooked hm up to the various physiological indices, and aske him to answer some questions, he blew the circuits and sent all the measurements off the charts. Bruce J. Richman |
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