[Keith G]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
You manage to work valves into most of those too. Why on earth
you're
going for valve mics escapes me.

Don't you have access to any valve mics, Dave?
Neumann U47, U49, U50 are particularly good
They are very expensive, and highly regarded
in classical recording. The only people who don't
like them are those that don't have them:-)

Or those who require to impress a client. ;-)

However, these are a rather different matter from new chinese ones.


So are the prices....



The heart of any condenser mic is the capsule - and always was. This
is a
precision device which like all such things has to be properly made.
And
that costs money.


Did you miss this one:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=001

??

[Keith G]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:



I've got a number of SS mics already (also on the above link), I just
want to try a valve mic to see/hear for myself and get, dare I say
it, a
'balanced view'...??

Not really. To do reasonable comparisons for the real world requires
reasonable hearing and knowing what you're listening for.


Which is why I post clips for the opinions of other who *supposedly*
know more than I do. They are usually mostly for Don who never fails to
give good advice and FB but, as they are already *up there* in
Cyberspace, I usually mention them here because, let's face it Plowie,
without my *blogging*, your *memoirs* and the odd bit of transatlantic,
crossposted trolling, there wouldn't be a whole lot of traffic in here -
other than the odd, monthly 'helpdesk' enquiry...



By the amount of experimenting you do - with each new project being
an
'improvement' - my guess is you have no real idea what you're
searching
for or how to achieve it. Really, you seem to be trying to re-invent
the
wheel. Things like valve mics/amps and horn speakers were superseded
by
modern techniques for a very good reason - not some conspiracy.


Calm down Plowie - I'm not *re-inventing* anything, I'm simply
investigating for myself. (Or is there some new EEC legislation to
prevent that or summat?)



Of course there's nothing wrong in starting from basics and arriving
at
your own conclusions. Plenty here will have done this in real time
rather
than trying to compress it all into a few years.


I don't have more than a few years, besides I don't need to know the
various topics down to *molecular level* - some better understanding
than blindly following the instructions on the box is all I need...


But like any child who learns by experience you also seem to dislike
hearing 'I told you so'...


Damn right I do. Do you know anyone who doesn't - especially when it
comes from one of those *types* who thinks their own *perceived* greater
experience/knowledge gives them leave to be rude, patronising and
condescending to anyone who declares a level of ignorance or
inexperience in the same subject? When your input to one of my topics
has been helpful and not impolite, you have been thanked for it; when
your input has (more commonly) been rude, patronising or insulting, you
have been ignored...

I'm surprised you haven't twigged that yet...

[Arny Krueger]

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
ups.com...

Here's your challenge - find a significant (3% of the market) amount of
newly-produced media, or even media produced produced in the last 30
years,
that didn't pass through at least one SS device.

But more importantly, almost all pop releases today have audio that
has been through a tube somewhere.

Nonsense.

[Arny Krueger]

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
Bret Ludwig wrote:
But more importantly, almost all pop releases today have audio that
has been through a tube somewhere.

Does that account for the appalling quality? Optimod type thingie set to
kill?

I think he means in the recording chain. Tube mic preamps, and
tube compressors are to be found in almost every studio.

Nonsense.

[Arny Krueger]

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
ti.fi...

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 31, 3:54 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Keith G" wrote in message





No, as I've said recently elsewhere, I'm heartily sick of
seeing the words 'valvelike' and 'analogue sound' being
applied to SS kit and digital music by silly *hip*
magazine writers.

Agreed, no reason to slander good SS kit and good digital recordings
that
way.

Still having trouble accepting that others don't see it your way.

Just listen to one of Arny's "recordings", and you will understand
why his opinion on recording quality differs from that held by the
many of the rest of us:-)))

I make no pretenses. I generally record amateurs, very often in substandard
halls. I don't happen to have the resources of a multimillion dollar
organization behind me. I primarily make recordings to to help amateur
musicians and non-profit organizations.

In contrast, just listen to one of Iain's recordings - you know a recording
that he made from start to finish, including personally buying all the
equipment and personally arranging for the musicians and venue at his own
personal expense.

That would be an apples-to-apples comparison.

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
Bret Ludwig wrote:
But more importantly, almost all pop releases today have audio that
has been through a tube somewhere.

Does that account for the appalling quality? Optimod type thingie set
to kill?

I think he means in the recording chain. Tube mic preamps, and
tube compressors are to be found in almost every studio.

Right. So it's these that are responsible for the appalling quality of
much of today's pop output?

If only it was that simple, Dave:-)

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
You manage to work valves into most of those too. Why on earth you're
going for valve mics escapes me.

Don't you have access to any valve mics, Dave?
Neumann U47, U49, U50 are particularly good
They are very expensive, and highly regarded
in classical recording. The only people who don't
like them are those that don't have them:-)

Or those who require to impress a client. ;-)

I have yet to see a client cliamber to the top of
a boom to peer at the badge on the microphone:-)

However, these are a rather different matter from new chinese ones.

It would be interesting to make a comparison. Have you done this?

I think it is a very good idea indeed for anyone having tried FET
mics to give a good valve mic an audition. The fact that so many
vintage Neumann mics have beenconverted *back* from FET
is surely food for thought.

Regards
Iain

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
You manage to work valves into most of those too. Why on earth you're
going for valve mics escapes me.

Don't you have access to any valve mics, Dave?
Neumann U47, U49, U50 are particularly good
They are very expensive, and highly regarded
in classical recording. The only people who don't
like them are those that don't have them:-)

Or those who require to impress a client. ;-)

However, these are a rather different matter from new chinese ones.


So are the prices....



The heart of any condenser mic is the capsule - and always was. This is a
precision device which like all such things has to be properly made. And
that costs money.


Did you miss this one:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=001

??

No capsule.
Iain

[Keith G]

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
You manage to work valves into most of those too. Why on earth
you're
going for valve mics escapes me.

Don't you have access to any valve mics, Dave?
Neumann U47, U49, U50 are particularly good
They are very expensive, and highly regarded
in classical recording. The only people who don't
like them are those that don't have them:-)

Or those who require to impress a client. ;-)

However, these are a rather different matter from new chinese ones.


So are the prices....



The heart of any condenser mic is the capsule - and always was. This
is a
precision device which like all such things has to be properly made.
And
that costs money.


Did you miss this one:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=001

??

No capsule.


No - no microphone! The capsule is a K47 and the seller will even give a
warranty on it, apparently!

[Keith G]

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
ti.fi...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
You manage to work valves into most of those too. Why on earth
you're
going for valve mics escapes me.

Don't you have access to any valve mics, Dave?
Neumann U47, U49, U50 are particularly good
They are very expensive, and highly regarded
in classical recording. The only people who don't
like them are those that don't have them:-)

Or those who require to impress a client. ;-)

I have yet to see a client cliamber to the top of
a boom to peer at the badge on the microphone:-)

However, these are a rather different matter from new chinese ones.

It would be interesting to make a comparison. Have you done this?



Has he even heard a Chinese valve mic?? (Other than the Right Channel of
these clips:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...0&%20Valve.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...0&%20Valve.mp3


....and that one is on its way back to Poole in Dorset as 'not fit for
purpose'!!)

Personally, I doubt it (but I'm always ready to be put right, of course
??) - ordinarily, there's too many people ready to dismiss stuff on
guesswork and hearsay. I at least, get hold of examples and try them for
myself...



I think it is a very good idea indeed for anyone having tried FET
mics to give a good valve mic an audition.


Absolutely!


The fact that so many
vintage Neumann mics have beenconverted *back* from FET
is surely food for thought.


Stuff of legends, AFAIAC - sorry to say!! ;-)

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Did you miss this one:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=001

??

No capsule.

Eh? That's exactly what it is - the capsule, mounting and windshield. The
bit missing is the head amp or body.

--
*Gun Control: Use both hands.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article i,
Iain Churches wrote:
However, these are a rather different matter from new chinese ones.

It would be interesting to make a comparison. Have you done this?

Not with valve mics, no. But have heard plenty of Chinese and Russian
mics. Ok for what they cost but of no use to a pro - unless you need a
disposable mic for any reason.

It's rather like power tools. PPPro etc will be perfectly ok for most DIY
tasks and DIYers who haven't tried Makita. But once you've used a decent
make you won't be satisfied with less.

--
*Reality? Is that where the pizza delivery guy comes from?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Mr.T]

"George M. Middius" cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote in message
...

Why don't you admit the truth, ****?

That YOU have absolutely nothing to say other than school boy name calling?

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Not that much less of a stretch than what Keith was saying - that the fact
that CD sales are being replaced by downloaded music is somehow relevant
to
the fact that analog media like the LP went from 100% of the market to
only
a percent or two.

The vinylistas can only dare to dream it will ever again reach "a percent or
two" of total recorded music sales! :-)

MrT.

[George M. Middius]

The **** has a breakthrough.

Why don't you admit the truth, ****?

That YOU have absolutely nothing to say other than school boy name calling?

That's what you come up with after three days of stewing? No wonder you're
the ****.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Not that much less of a stretch than what Keith was saying - that the fact
that CD sales are being replaced by downloaded music is somehow relevant
to
the fact that analog media like the LP went from 100% of the market to
only
a percent or two.

The vinylistas can only dare to dream it will ever again reach "a percent or
two" of total recorded music sales! :-)

MrT.

Other than the resulting increased selection of new stuff, why would
they care?

[Mr.T]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Should we still accept that the sun
and stars revolve around the earth?

Remember that established Science taught that for most of recorded
history.

Not so. The ancient Greeks pretty much founded the scientific establishment,
and they knew better, as did the Egyptians, some South American cultures and
countless others.
It was only the religious nuts who really changed European thinking for a
millenia. And for much of that, priests promoted themselves as the
"scientific establishment", and holders of all wisdom.

I don't think we have any TV evangelists who are saying that their magic
prayer cloth will double the number of molecules of anything you wrap with
it. Do we? ;-)

No, but they sure have their equivalents, like faith healers etc.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Keith G" wrote in message
...
I neither know nor care, but think
about this: If 'vinylists' were as *elitist* as some here would have you
believe, then the smaller that percentage, the better - no?

They must be very happy then - no? :-)


It's amazing what you can do with statistics though. An Audio rag
recently
claimed that turntable sales in England were greater than CD player
sales
last year.
Even IF true, what they conveniently ignored was the millions of DVD
player,
SACD player, DVDA player and other assorted hybrid player sales, that
all
play standard CD disks.


Factor in the 'iPod effect' and you've answered your own question...

What question?


"Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument" is still a
widely
accepted philosophy it seems.

Facts? That's an intriguing prospect - we get a lot of 'facts' in here
(ukra)....

Did you forget the smiley?
Here's one for you :-)

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Keith G" wrote in message
...
I don't know a single soul who plays LPs who feels he needs to *prove*
anything....

The thousands who post to usenet excepted of course?

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Jenn" wrote in message

et...
Tell me Mr. T: What have I "distorted"?

Nothing at all, since that's all you've said, once all your denials are
taken into account.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"flipper" wrote in message
...
Case in point. You can argue all you like about the technical
inferiority of 8-track and cassette vs other mechanisms but the tapes
were conveniently compact, simple to use, and you could play them in
the car.

Yes, unlike CD or MP3's!

Case closed.

:-) :-)

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Jenn" wrote in message

om...
Not that much less of a stretch than what Keith was saying - that the
fact
that CD sales are being replaced by downloaded music is somehow
relevant
to
the fact that analog media like the LP went from 100% of the market to
only
a percent or two.

The vinylistas can only dare to dream it will ever again reach "a
percent or
two" of total recorded music sales! :-)

Other than the resulting increased selection of new stuff, why would
they care?

Yes, they certainly wouldn't want an increase in availability or titles,
would they?
Much prefer to keep playing the same out worn out ones I guess. :-)

MrT.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

et...
Tell me Mr. T: What have I "distorted"?

Nothing at all, since that's all you've said, once all your denials are
taken into account.

MrT.

What denials, Mr. T? Do you believe that I've been less than truthful?
If so, show some honor and point out where I've done so.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

om...
Not that much less of a stretch than what Keith was saying - that the
fact
that CD sales are being replaced by downloaded music is somehow
relevant
to
the fact that analog media like the LP went from 100% of the market to
only
a percent or two.

The vinylistas can only dare to dream it will ever again reach "a
percent or
two" of total recorded music sales! :-)

Other than the resulting increased selection of new stuff, why would
they care?

Yes, they certainly wouldn't want an increase in availability or titles,
would they?
Much prefer to keep playing the same out worn out ones I guess. :-)

MrT.

As I said, Mr. T:"other than..."

[Mr.T]

"George M. Middius" cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote in message
...
The **** has a breakthrough.

Why don't you admit the truth, ****?

That YOU have absolutely nothing to say other than school boy name
calling?

That's what you come up with after three days of stewing? No wonder you're
the ****.

Unlike you I have better things to do than sit and wait for your next stupid
insult, especially since they are all the same.
Someone with the slightest bit of intelligence could come up with new ones
at least.

Must be a **VERY** boring life you lead George.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Jenn" wrote in message

om...
What denials, Mr. T? Do you believe that I've been less than truthful?
If so, show some honor and point out where I've done so.

No idea, I did ask you to clarify one statement, but you failed to do so.
I'll accept your denials, so that leaves nothing else to discuss.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Jenn" wrote in message

om...
Other than the resulting increased selection of new stuff, why would
they care?

Yes, they certainly wouldn't want an increase in availability or titles,
would they?
Much prefer to keep playing the same out worn out ones I guess. :-)

As I said, Mr. T:"other than..."

So you were just being funny then? If you add a smiley it is more obvious.

MrT.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

om...
What denials, Mr. T? Do you believe that I've been less than truthful?
If so, show some honor and point out where I've done so.

No idea, I did ask you to clarify one statement, but you failed to do so.
I'll accept your denials, so that leaves nothing else to discuss.

MrT.

What statement, Mr. T?

[George M. Middius]

**** twittered:

Why don't you admit the truth, ****?

That YOU have absolutely nothing to say other than school boy name
calling?

Newsreader incompetence noted.

That's what you come up with after three days of stewing? No wonder you're
the ****.

Unlike you I have better things to do than sit and wait for your next stupid

Very quick response time, ****. Do you do everything this quickly when you
put your mind to it?

BTW, Arnii Krooger doesn't respect you at all. To Mr. ****, you're just
another bump in the highway of his bloated ego.

[Mr.T]

"George M. Middius" cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote in message
...
**** twittered:
Why don't you admit the truth, ****?
No wonder you're the ****.
Very quick response time, ****.

Wow George, what an amazingly limited "intelligence" you have. I'd be really
ashamed to advertise that to the world, but obviously you don't know any
better.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Jenn" wrote in message
news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-
What denials, Mr. T? Do you believe that I've been less than
truthful?
If so, show some honor and point out where I've done so.

No idea, I did ask you to clarify one statement, but you failed to do
so.
I'll accept your denials, so that leaves nothing else to discuss.

What statement, Mr. T?

The one you ignored, asking WHAT your supposed statement actually was, since
you claimed it was not just an opinion, but was not as others claimed it to
be.
Try Google groups *IF* you actually care, I don't any longer, and you
obviously didn't when I asked.

MrT.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"George M. Middius" cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote in message
...

Why don't you admit the truth, ****?

That YOU have absolutely nothing to say other than school boy name
calling?

The Middiot has never had anything but childish name-calling to offer. He
calls it ridicule, but most would call it delayed mental and social
development.

[Mr.T]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
The Middiot has never had anything but childish name-calling to offer. He
calls it ridicule, but most would call it delayed mental and social
development.

So true, permanently delayed in his case it seems.

MrT.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Not that much less of a stretch than what Keith was saying - that the
fact
that CD sales are being replaced by downloaded music is somehow
relevant
to
the fact that analog media like the LP went from 100% of the market to
only
a percent or two.

The vinylistas can only dare to dream it will ever again reach "a percent
or
two" of total recorded music sales! :-)

MrT.

Other than the resulting increased selection of new stuff, why would
they care?

The selection of new LP titles is going to loose a lot, as the sales
continue to drop. Remember, it already fell into a horrifically deep hole
from where it was say 20 years ago.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Jenn" wrote in message

om...
Not that much less of a stretch than what Keith was saying - that the
fact
that CD sales are being replaced by downloaded music is somehow
relevant
to
the fact that analog media like the LP went from 100% of the market
to
only
a percent or two.

The vinylistas can only dare to dream it will ever again reach "a
percent or
two" of total recorded music sales! :-)

Other than the resulting increased selection of new stuff, why would
they care?

Yes, they certainly wouldn't want an increase in availability or titles,
would they?
Much prefer to keep playing the same out worn out ones I guess. :-)

The more you play vinyl, the more it sounds like vinyl! ;-)

[Arny Krueger]

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...
No Arny, you've got that all wrong (unless you are *distorting* again
which, of course, is highly likely) - it's CDs that are disappearing
rapidly.

Where the hell do YOU live?
But I note you do NOT claim vinyl sales have even reached the most
minuscule
percentage of CD sales, or availability.

Why should I make any such claim? - I neither know nor care, but think
about this: If 'vinylists' were as *elitist* as some here would have you
believe, then the smaller that percentage, the better - no?

No. There is a practical side to all this. If the vinyl market drops to a
tenth of what it is now, which it could in a few years, then the supplies of
new hardware and software are going to really dry up.

It's amazing what you can do with statistics though. An Audio rag
recently
claimed that turntable sales in England were greater than CD player sales
last year.
Even IF true, what they conveniently ignored was the millions of DVD
player,
SACD player, DVDA player and other assorted hybrid player sales, that all
play standard CD disks.

Factor in the 'iPod effect' and you've answered your own question...

The battle was never between the LP and the CD, and all the vinylista
propaganda that tried to crap on digital proves it. The battle was between
analog and digital.

"Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument" is still a widely
accepted philosophy it seems.

Facts? That's an intriguing prospect - we get a lot of 'facts' in here
(ukra)....

Facts that are irrelevant to most music lovers, who care not about tubes or
vinyl.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

Should we still accept that the sun
and stars revolve around the earth?

Remember that established Science taught that for most of recorded
history.

Not so.

So.

The ancient Greeks pretty much founded the scientific establishment,
and they knew better, as did the Egyptians, some South American cultures
and
countless others.

The greeks were a diverse lot. Just because some greek someplace thought
that the earth circulated around the sun didn't keep others from believing
that Icaraus flew so close to the sun that the feathers on his arms melted
off.

It was only the religious nuts who really changed European thinking for a
millenia.

Science and religion started out being almost completely blended together.
Early technology was practiced by many as a kind of religious rite. Most
universities were run by the Church. Government, Science and Religon were
blended together.

And for much of that, priests promoted themselves as the
"scientific establishment", and holders of all wisdom.

That was simply how things were. During the dark ages the churches were the
places where ancient scientific wisdom was preserved and practiced.

I don't think we have any TV evangelists who are saying that their magic
prayer cloth will double the number of molecules of anything you wrap
with
it. Do we? ;-)

No, but they sure have their equivalents, like faith healers etc.

TV faith healers are an aberration, not the mainstream of people of faith.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

I don't know a single soul who plays LPs who feels he needs to *prove*
anything....

The thousands who post to usenet excepted of course?

Right. If they aren't trying to prove something, why don't they keep their
weird religious rites to themselves?

[Keith G]

"Arny Krueger" wrote


No. There is a practical side to all this. If the vinyl market drops
to a tenth of what it is now, which it could in a few years, then the
supplies of new hardware and software are going to really dry up.


Sorry Arny, deny it all you like, but here in the UK (I can't speak for
anywhere else) the evidence is heavily against you. In addition to the
steady stream of new turntables from existing manufacturers, we are also
seeing new models from established names like Marantz who are starting
to *re-introduce* them after a break of some 20 years (according to the
blurb):

http://uk.gizmodo.com/2006/01/06/mar...t_turntab.html


And then there are completely new (from scratch) models from
manufacturers with no history of turntable manufacturing - like EAR:

http://www.needledoctor.com/EAR-Disc...urntable?sc=10


and Creek:

http://whathifi.com/hi-fi/archive/20...turntable.aspx


What that tells me is that vinyl is likely to be around for quite a
while yet, irrespective of what *percentage* it may or may not represent
of anything - what does it tell you....??



The battle was never between the LP and the CD, and all the vinylista
propaganda that tried to crap on digital proves it. The battle was
between analog and digital.


Except there is no battle. Most 'vinylista' I know (includes me) use
both regualarly, according to their requirements - sometimes analogue is
best, sometimes digital is more suitable. Same with valves and SS -
there is no 'mutual exclusion', once you get away from neurosis and
irrational prejudice....



"Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument" is still a
widely
accepted philosophy it seems.

Facts? That's an intriguing prospect - we get a lot of 'facts' in
here (ukra)....

Facts that are irrelevant to most music lovers, who care not about
tubes or vinyl.


Facts bother me - so many of them turn out to be nothing more than
someone's *wishful thinking*....

[Keith G]

"Arny Krueger" wrote


Science and religion started out being almost completely blended
together.


They still are - ask Einstein...


Early technology was practiced by many as a kind of religious rite.
Most universities were run by the Church. Government, Science and
Religon were blended together.


Physics always becomes *metaphysics* when the tape measure's too
short....