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#402
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
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#403
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Keith G" wrote in message "Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. wrote in message ups.com Scott makes up a straw man argument: One would think from your post that one's ability to solder has something to do with one's ability to make aesthetic judgements. Do I hve to tell you just how stupid that idea is? No Scott, you told us how stupid that idea is when you made it up. Engineers do the work the hobbyists consume it. Scott might have us believe that all engineers: (1) never make aesthetic judgements. (2) have no interest in aesthetics One does not need to know anything about engineering to evaluate the results. Simply not true. It takes technical knowlege to properly evaluate a technological product. Utter ********, consumers are the best evaluators of *any* product - Speaks to your ignorance of modern product evaluation, Keith. Product evaluation takes place on many levels and involves many different people with various skills. Consumers are the *final* evaluators of any product. However, products get evaluated many times during their development. Particularly in the earlier stages, skilled evaluators are invaluable. Don't be pedantic - you know what I meant. The final product is all we're interested in here - if a crappy product got through all the process and development evaluation you have listed above and *then* gets ****ed off by the (consumer) public, it's so much the *worse*... every crock produced since the Beginning Of Time has been graded/passed as 'OK' by someone, for some reason or other... In many cases, the people who graded the subsequently failing product as being OK were themselves consumers. Sure, your own Abe Lincoln had that more or less pretty well covered..... |
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#404
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
In article ,
Keith G wrote: We have *hundreds* of bloody CDs here and maybe more than a dozen different gadgets that can play them. Once in a while I'll put one of a very small, select few on (no LP equivalents) and, sure as eggs, I'll wander off after a while and quite simply *not hear* the rest of it. I can't recall the last time I was ever able to sit through an entire CD - it must be *years* ago now!! LPs? One after the other, usually - sometimes 'til the wee small hours, unable to stop slapping them on to the turntable!! Get the idea? No-one to impress, no-one taking note..... Thought you only listened to music, not equipment. -- *Never test the depth of the water with both feet.* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#406
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
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#407
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
In rec.audio.tech "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article .com, wrote: I think thre is something to this claim. I remember a mastering engineer, I think it was Stan Ricker, saying that he often found the LPs he mastered often sounded more lifelike than the original master tapes even when he did a flat transfer with no processing. Says it all about some mastering people. "My job is to improve the master" Well, sometimes the master comes with instructions for 'improving' it -- or at least making it sound presentable on vinyl. (That's what mastering was originally for -- to smooth the passage from tape to vinyl) One could argue that CD listeners of a certain age expect to hear the music sound like it did on their moldy old LPs...'only better'. That could involve jiggering the master to get it to sound like it had passed through a cutting lathe etc. I've read several old-time CD mastering engineers who in the 80's were trying to 'match' the sound of the LP. Pristine LPs are still used today as 'references' for digital remastering projects (e.g., the Rolling Stones' SACD reissues) And sometimes masters were recorded in , er, interesting circumstances (like, maybe the monitor speakers weren't so hot at bass, so the engineer jacked that up on the master...). And lastly, badly stored old tapes may need some TLC to bring them back to what they were. THose are 'improvements' that even a purist could love...as opposed to the arbitrary 'improvements' that much mastering involves. ___ -S "As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy, metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason |
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#408
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
In rec.audio.tech wrote: "The limitations of listening." Good one. Thanks for a nother laugh. A psychoacoustics or sensory psychology textbook shoudl have you in *stitches*, then. Trouble is, Scotts alama mater, a school of cosmetology I presume, didn't have much of an engineering department. Ironically given all the things they are doing with cosmetics, a school of cosmetology of the future might have an engineering department. However, I don't think Scott is much for that lifelong learning thing. Yeah if the meter readers can't corilate the numbers to the aesthetic experience there must be something wrong with the aesthetic experience. That's stupid enough for Scott to have made it up on his own. Hmm...did anyone *here* say that? Don't think so. AFAIK, Scott is the only one who said it. That's about as backassward as it gets. in the world of meter readers the perception must bend to meet the expectations given to them by the measurements. That's stupid enough for Scott to have made it up on his own. Hmm...did anyone *here* say that? Don't think so. AFAIK, Scott is the only one who said it. Well, correlation of objective reality to subjective reality has its merits. Does Scott even believe in objective reality? It allowed the creation of things like audio gear and recordings. Scott seems like he's a poster boy for igorance of the well-known correlations between sound quality and specs. yet many vinylphiles seem less interested in that than in promoting what they believe (often without basis) are audible limitations of digital. Think of turntables as altars on which rational thought is sacrificed. Maybe they are just looking for an explination for what they hear? Oh, you mean, an objective correlate of their subjective experience? I thought that was a nonstarter for you? if that is so terrible but attacking the perceptions as wrong because they don't fit the meter reader's formulas is completely reasonable. What's usually wrong is not the effort, but the execution. Vinylphile 'explanations' of digital tend to be laughable nonsense. The audio salesmen(amn) who brainwashed Scott into believing that tubes and vinyl are superior must have been a heck of a guy. He no doubt spent his rookie years selling air conditioners to the Aleut and Inuit. |
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#409
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
"Keith G" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Keith G" wrote in message "Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. wrote in message ups.com Scott makes up a straw man argument: One would think from your post that one's ability to solder has something to do with one's ability to make aesthetic judgements. Do I hve to tell you just how stupid that idea is? No Scott, you told us how stupid that idea is when you made it up. Engineers do the work the hobbyists consume it. Scott might have us believe that all engineers: (1) never make aesthetic judgements. (2) have no interest in aesthetics One does not need to know anything about engineering to evaluate the results. Simply not true. It takes technical knowlege to properly evaluate a technological product. Utter ********, consumers are the best evaluators of *any* product - Speaks to your ignorance of modern product evaluation, Keith. Product evaluation takes place on many levels and involves many different people with various skills. Consumers are the *final* evaluators of any product. However, products get evaluated many times during their development. Particularly in the earlier stages, skilled evaluators are invaluable. Don't be pedantic - you know what I meant. Sorry, I've learned that it is unwise to give you more credit for deep thought than you deserve. The final product is all we're interested in here - if a crappy product got through all the process and development evaluation you have listed above and *then* gets ****ed off by the (consumer) public, it's so much the *worse*... By all reasonable standards of product evaluation by end-users, the CD was a rousing sucess and the LP has been forgotten. every crock produced since the Beginning Of Time has been graded/passed as 'OK' by someone, for some reason or other... In many cases, the people who graded the subsequently failing product as being OK were themselves consumers. Sure, your own Abe Lincoln had that more or less pretty well covered..... ?????????? |
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#410
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
Just thought I'd remind Scott that the name of this forum *I'm*
posting from is 'rec.audio.tech'. Perhaps if one wants to guard against dreaded questioning of the logic behind a subjective impression, one should refrain from posting to a '.tech' forum. In other words , if you just want to hear anecdotes about what sounds good, or bad, accompanied by the occasional wild guess with obvious technical flaws (that goes unchallenged), stick to nontechnical forums. ___ -S "As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy, metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason |
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#411
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
I would suggest you lobby one of the 'high end' boutique businesses to design a box that recreates LP distortion. http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/ Note that it will work with Scott's fetish about 24/96. |
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#412
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
In article . com,
wrote: But are so keen to name drop all the engineers you 'know'. You sound like you don't know one end of a soldering iron from the other and think that all the equipment you use was hatched from an egg rather than designed by an engineer... One would think from your post that one's ability to solder has something to do with one's ability to make aesthetic judgements. Do I hve to tell you just how stupid that idea is? Engineers do the work the hobbyists consume it. So they're mutually exclusive? Isn't that a tad pompous? One does not need to know anything about engineering to evaluate the results. And in your case to totally misunderstand them? Seems I've heard this before many many times. Usually from a bean counter. Who doesn't understand how to evaluate technical matters either. But you find it important to know the name of who engineered a recording, but not to know how it's made, etc? Weird or what. It seems that in the case of the meter readers a little bit of knowledge is a destructive force. Sad. To see you posture one would think you have this wacky idea that you were actually a somebody in the world of audio. I'm somebody in my world of audio. That's all that matters to me. You seems terribly star struck. Are you some kind of groupie? -- *How come you never hear about gruntled employees? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#413
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
In article .com,
wrote: IME the percieved dynamic range of Redbook and Vinyl at their best are neck and neck. Perceived? You can't hear the difference of more than 20 dB? Explains a lot. What the **** would you know about it? you've never made a reasonable comparison. You cant get past the numbers. Perhaps that's because I have an idea what they mean - in practice. -- *Stable Relationships Are For Horses. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#414
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote: Here's some helpful advice Scott - find a good newsgroup about some area where you have some expertise in, like makeup. He is an expert on makeup? -- *Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#415
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Keith G" wrote in message "Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Keith G" wrote in message "Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. wrote in message ups.com Scott makes up a straw man argument: One would think from your post that one's ability to solder has something to do with one's ability to make aesthetic judgements. Do I hve to tell you just how stupid that idea is? No Scott, you told us how stupid that idea is when you made it up. Engineers do the work the hobbyists consume it. Scott might have us believe that all engineers: (1) never make aesthetic judgements. (2) have no interest in aesthetics One does not need to know anything about engineering to evaluate the results. Simply not true. It takes technical knowlege to properly evaluate a technological product. Utter ********, consumers are the best evaluators of *any* product - Speaks to your ignorance of modern product evaluation, Keith. Product evaluation takes place on many levels and involves many different people with various skills. Consumers are the *final* evaluators of any product. However, products get evaluated many times during their development. Particularly in the earlier stages, skilled evaluators are invaluable. Don't be pedantic - you know what I meant. Sorry, I've learned that it is unwise to give you more credit for deep thought than you deserve. You're the one unable to join up the dots, Arneee... The final product is all we're interested in here - if a crappy product got through all the process and development evaluation you have listed above and *then* gets ****ed off by the (consumer) public, it's so much the *worse*... By all reasonable standards of product evaluation by end-users, the CD was a rousing sucess and the LP has been forgotten. WTF was that all about...?? every crock produced since the Beginning Of Time has been graded/passed as 'OK' by someone, for some reason or other... In many cases, the people who graded the subsequently failing product as being OK were themselves consumers. Sure, your own Abe Lincoln had that more or less pretty well covered..... ?????????? Sorry, I've learned that it is unwise to give you more credit for deep thought than you deserve... Try: 'You can fool all of the people some of the time.....' |
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#416
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message In article , Arny Krueger wrote: Here's some helpful advice Scott - find a good newsgroup about some area where you have some expertise in, like makeup. He is an expert on makeup? That what we're told about him. He's a makeup artist of some renown in LA. |
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#417
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
Steven Sullivan wrote: In rec.audio.tech wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: In rec.audio.tech wrote: Mr.T wrote: "Keith G" wrote in message ... Whatever - if you did start such a thread in a car group you'd also get shot down unless you heavily qualified your opinion. Which is what happens here to all those who constantly harp on about how marvellous vinyl is while knocking digital. You have it back to front. I can't remember the last time anyone STARTED a thread bashing vinyl, rather than simply responding to the ill informed. Who was it that said I don't get irony? Don Plowman? Dick Pearce? You can't remember this thread while you were posting to it? Scott, Dick Pierce and Don Pearce are two different people. Funny thing about the meter reders, they actualy do all sound th same. Yet I can easily tell the difference between them...I guess my ears are better than yours. Um yeah that must be it. Couldn't have been well set up joke or anything like that. Both are capable of laying your arguments to waste, So they choose to make asses of themselves instead? Odd choice. Neither have done that...you, on the other hand, are making *quite* the spectacle of yourself. Sure. yeah. uh huh. so perhaps that's what's confused you. I wasn't confused. Thank you for finally taking the bait. I had all but given up on my punchline about all meter readers sounding the same. Ah, you weren't confused...you *meant it all along*. You were just trolling, then. Are you feeling used? So sorry. But yes I was poking fun by mixing up their names. I guess you missed me calling Dave Plowman Don Plowman. Oh well. Scott |
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#418
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
In article ,
Keith G wrote: Sure, your own Abe Lincoln had that more or less pretty well covered..... ?????????? Sorry, I've learned that it is unwise to give you more credit for deep thought than you deserve... Try: 'You can fool all of the people some of the time.....' Ah. You mean George Bush. http://en.thinkexist.com/quotation/y...nd/365431.html -- *When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#419
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
Steven Sullivan wrote: In rec.audio.tech wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: In rec.audio.tech Rob wrote: Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Mr.T MrT@home wrote: snip If the vinyl lovers wish to enjoy their personal choice without disparaging remarks, all they need do is stop claiming to the world that it is better than CD. Seems simple enough to me. Indeed. I haven't noticed many remarks that state in absolute terms that 'vinyl is better than CD'. I read most of the remarks as 'I prefer the sound produced from vinyl'. So perhaps it isn't quite as simple as you pair believe ... :-) It rarely stops there... But it has on this thread. Disappointed I bet. So gosh, if you can't get someone to say what you want so you can attack it best thing to do is just say it yourself and then attack it. it's usually followed by some rather technically dubious claims about analog and digital....often phrased as a report of hearing things that digital 'can't do'. Originally it was digital, period, but in the past half decade or so the scripture has been amended to allow that 'hi rez' digital might, on a good day, sound as good as vinyl, but 16/44.1, heavens no, it can't sound as good as 'the best' vinyl played on 'SOTA' gear to 'golden ears', even if it's a CD transfer of an LP. Which brings us back to this thread. aw, c'mon you could do better than that can't you? For myself, I'm more interested in audio than vinyl. I think it's nice if people can make up their own mind about vinyl by listening, using and taking on board the technical arguments. The UK audio group tends to provide a good blend of things I'm interested in. I think it's nice if people understand the well-documented limitations of 'listening' as it is generally done.. "The limitations of listening." Good one. Thanks for a nother laugh. A psychoacoustics or sensory psychology textbook shoudl have you in *stitches*, then. Not at all. But then maybe iIm actually understanding what I read. Yeah if the meter readers can't corilate the numbers to the aesthetic experience there must be something wrong with the aesthetic expeience. Hmm...did anyone *here* say that? Pretty much. Don't think so. Even you are subject to Bias stevie. You se what you want to see. That's about as backassward as it gets. in the world of meter readers the perception must bend to meet the expectations given to them by the measurements. Well, correlation of objective reality to subjective reality has its merits. It allowed the creation of things like audio gear and recordings. It did? I had no idea Edison was relying on that. yet many vinylphiles seem less interested in that than in promoting what they believe (often without basis) are audible limitations of digital. Maybe they are just looking for an explination for what they hear? Oh, you mean, an objective correlate of their subjective experience? I thought that was a nonstarter for you? Maybe you are struggling with pronouns. When I say "they" i don't mean "me." Pretty basic English don't you think? "I" don't worry so much about explinations unless I think they can narrow the scope of things I look out for when making purchases. "My" focus is on thr results not the explanations for those results. if that is so terrible but attacking the perceptions as wrong because they don't fit the meter reader's formulas is completely reasonable. What's usually wrong is not the effort, but the execution. Vinylphile 'explanations' of digital tend to be laughable nonsense. But you love that don't you? makes you feel better about your faith in the almighty meter. Scott |
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#420
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message In article , Arny Krueger wrote: Here's some helpful advice Scott - find a good newsgroup about some area where you have some expertise in, like makeup. He is an expert on makeup? That what we're told about him. He's a makeup artist of some renown in LA. Crikey. Doubt he talks much to the sound recordists. ;-) -- *Save a tree, eat a beaver* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#421
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
Steven Sullivan wrote: In rec.audio.tech wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: In rec.audio.tech Keith G wrote: You seem angry. Also, you're missing the point of this thread..which is that a CD transfer of an LP could well capture all that 'realism' you like. If you claim it *can't ever* do that, then it's time to explain why that could be so. No, no one is required to have an explination for their perceptions. You see that is part of the bull**** game. You demand an explination for peoples' perceptions and when they offer a wild guess that has obvious technical flaws you attack the whole claim via the explination. It's ****ing shell game with you dorks. You don't like the aesthetic perceptions when they don't line up with the technogeek meter readers true love, the numbers. Heavens, you do seem upset. Anoyed. If you don't like having your statements subjected to scrutiny, best not to post to a public forum. You call this scrutiny? You don't see the bull****? You really are lost then. I wonder how the *science* part of audio and electronics (it's all that nasty stuff in the background that you really don't want to know about) would have progressed if we never questioned what lies behind 'aesthetic perceptions'. "We?" Dude give me a break. The meter reader geeks on Usenet have contributed nothing to the advancement of audio. OTOH the heretical designers of high end equipment have been on the cutting edge pushing the envelope. Where would we be if the meter readers had their way? Maybe listening to undithered CDs mastered on first generation A/D converters on 14 bit players. Hey, the meter readers said right out of the gate none of that stuff mattered. I shudder to think where audio would be today if the Usenet dorks had their way. I am thankful that you guys are on the sideline whining and bitching about high end rather than actually influencing it. And you are in the best position to comment. But might your technical certainties twist your listening experience? Because you know that CD must be better, do your prophecies self-fulfill? I used to think the CD bigots bashed vinyl out of jealousy, having got rid of their vinyl (like so many did), but so many of them claim to still own many LPs - presumably for the opposite purpose of digging out the occasional LP just to prove they still don't like 'em...??? Cover art, mainly. And a few that have never come out on CD, I've transferred from LP. But all of them reside in the attic. There you go. And you have no excuse Sully. You know that mastering is an overriding factor. Yes, I do. And that relates to all of this, how, exactly? Um gosh maybe if yo wee paying attention. Just reread the thread from the begining. If you still don't get it I'll hold your hand and point you to the specifics. What am I supposed to have an 'excuse' for? I suppose defending the dorks that claim there is no reason to transfer LPs to digital because the CDs all sound better. did you miss that? I'm sure lots of vinylphiles own a CD or two, too. Or several hundred. Shameful. So are you going to get the MoFi Fragile? Scott |
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#422
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
Arny Krueger wrote: "Steven Sullivan" wrote in message In rec.audio.tech wrote: "The limitations of listening." Good one. Thanks for a nother laugh. A psychoacoustics or sensory psychology textbook shoudl have you in *stitches*, then. Trouble is, Scotts alama mater, a school of cosmetology I presume, didn't have much of an engineering department. Ironically given all the things they are doing with cosmetics, a school of cosmetology of the future might have an engineering department. However, I don't think Scott is much for that lifelong learning thing. Cal Poly San Luis Obispo doesn't hae an enginering department? Wouldn't it be more correct to say my alma mater didn't have an engineering department that Arny could ever hope to get into? Arny, underachievers like you are better off not going into these kinds of things. Scott |
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#423
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
Arny Krueger wrote: wrote in message ups.com Mr.T wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Which is all I'm complaining about, the unprovable claim that vinyl is better than CD (rather than simply saying - some CD's are dreadful despite the mediums huge technical superiority.) Hey mr science dude. How on earth is the claim unbprovable? It's a simple claim to test and it has been tested with vinyl coming out on top. You can wave your arms all you want but that reality will not change. So where is this "proof"? Talk to the guy who made the world's only recording that was made specifically to test this. I can easily believe that Boyk, a well-known analog bigot, made a recording designed to conceal the well-known audible deficiencies of the LP format. Yes *you* could easily believe that. Scott |
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#424
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message In article , Arny Krueger wrote: Here's some helpful advice Scott - find a good newsgroup about some area where you have some expertise in, like makeup. He is an expert on makeup? That what we're told about him. He's a makeup artist of some renown in LA. He's a make-up artist around here too. And adjective challenged. |
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#425
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article . com, wrote: But are so keen to name drop all the engineers you 'know'. You sound like you don't know one end of a soldering iron from the other and think that all the equipment you use was hatched from an egg rather than designed by an engineer... One would think from your post that one's ability to solder has something to do with one's ability to make aesthetic judgements. Do I hve to tell you just how stupid that idea is? Engineers do the work the hobbyists consume it. So they're mutually exclusive? The ability to solder and the ability to make aestheic judgemens? Yes they are. Isn't that a tad pompous? No, it is a very stupid to thnk they are in any way related. One does not need to know anything about engineering to evaluate the results. And in your case to totally misunderstand them? **** you never cease to amaze me with your stupidity. How does one misunderstand their perceptions in and of themselves? Sure one can come up with eroneous explanantions for the causes of heir peceptions but misunderstand them? Again you are trying to call aesthetic peceptions wrong because they don't meet the expectations of your worshipped meansurements. no thank you. Seems I've heard this before many many times. Usually from a bean counter. Who doesn't understand how to evaluate technical matters either. That doesn't even make sense. But you find it important to know the name of who engineered a recording, Yes. for reasons already explained to you. but not to know how it's made, etc? Weird or what. no just you making **** up again when your arguments fail. Where did I ever say I don't care how it's made? I care in so far as I can relate it to the end result. It seems that in the case of the meter readers a little bit of knowledge is a destructive force. Sad. To see you posture one would think you have this wacky idea that you were actually a somebody in the world of audio. I'm somebody in my world of audio. Yeah right. That's all that matters to me. You seems terribly star struck. You seem totally delluded. Are you some kind of groupie? You think you have groupies? Sure their not just cheap hookers? Scott |
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#426
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
wrote in message
oups.com Arny Krueger wrote: "Steven Sullivan" wrote in message In rec.audio.tech wrote: "The limitations of listening." Good one. Thanks for a nother laugh. A psychoacoustics or sensory psychology textbook shoudl have you in *stitches*, then. Trouble is, Scotts alama mater, a school of cosmetology I presume, didn't have much of an engineering department. Ironically given all the things they are doing with cosmetics, a school of cosmetology of the future might have an engineering department. However, I don't think Scott is much for that lifelong learning thing. Cal Poly San Luis Obispo doesn't hae an enginering department? Well Scott, that just makes your much-vaunted ignorance of technology, all that musch more intolerable. Too bad your interests have remained so immature and narrow. |
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#427
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
wrote in message
ps.com "We?" Dude give me a break. The meter reader geeks on Usenet have contributed nothing to the advancement of audio. That would include John Atkinson, of course, well-known for his use of test equipment to characterize the performance of audio equipment, and long-time poster on various Usenet audio groups. Wow Scott, I didn't know that you had it in for John! OTOH the heretical designers of high end equipment have been on the cutting edge pushing the envelope. As in receiving lots of paper cuts from pushing envelopes? ;-) Where would we be if the meter readers had their way? Pretty much wherever mainstream technology is today. Correct me if I'm wrong but audio's subjectivism uber alles high priests have contributed *nothing* to mainstream audio technology. Maybe listening to undithered CDs mastered on first generation A/D converters on 14 bit players. Every card-carrying meter reader I know of believes in using dither. A CD or two might have fallen through the cracks, but the meter-reader's rule books say use dither or don't do digital. AFAIK the few known examples of quantization failure on CD did not happen by design, but by accident. They were the result of equipment that was prone to being sensitive to adjustement and a tad drifty. Absense of dither was not the problem. the meter readers said right out of the gate none of that stuff mattered. Speaks to Scott's lack of proper information about the state of digital audio technology at the time. Does Scott know how to spell Nyquist and Shannon? There's no evidence he has ever read their work, or has a clue what they wrote, or when. I shudder to think where audio would be today if the Usenet dorks had their way. Pretty much where it is. We abandoned vinyl as a mainstream format some decades ago. Tubes were abandoned a decade or more before that. So much for the parts of your listening room that you brag most about, Scott. |
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#428
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
In rec.audio.tech wrote:
Steven Sullivan wrote: In rec.audio.tech wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: In rec.audio.tech wrote: Mr.T wrote: "Keith G" wrote in message ... Whatever - if you did start such a thread in a car group you'd also get shot down unless you heavily qualified your opinion. Which is what happens here to all those who constantly harp on about how marvellous vinyl is while knocking digital. You have it back to front. I can't remember the last time anyone STARTED a thread bashing vinyl, rather than simply responding to the ill informed. Who was it that said I don't get irony? Don Plowman? Dick Pearce? You can't remember this thread while you were posting to it? Scott, Dick Pierce and Don Pearce are two different people. Funny thing about the meter reders, they actualy do all sound th same. Yet I can easily tell the difference between them...I guess my ears are better than yours. Um yeah that must be it. Couldn't have been well set up joke or anything like that. You do much better at generating laughs, when you don't try. Both are capable of laying your arguments to waste, So they choose to make asses of themselves instead? Odd choice. Neither have done that...you, on the other hand, are making *quite* the spectacle of yourself. Sure. yeah. uh huh. Another well set up joke, no doubt. so perhaps that's what's confused you. I wasn't confused. Thank you for finally taking the bait. I had all but given up on my punchline about all meter readers sounding the same. Ah, you weren't confused...you *meant it all along*. You were just trolling, then. Are you feeling used? So sorry. But yes I was poking fun by mixing up their names. I guess you missed me calling Dave Plowman Don Plowman. Oh well. That name stuff is gold, *gold*. ___ -S "As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy, metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason |
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#429
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
In rec.audio.tech wrote:
Steven Sullivan wrote: In rec.audio.tech wrote: Not at all. But then maybe iIm actually understanding what I read. But not the parts about the limits of human hearing, or the sources of errors in interpreting what is heard. These are what I was referring to as 'the well-documented limitations of listening'. You should read up on them, they're *gold*. Yeah if the meter readers can't corilate the numbers to the aesthetic experience there must be something wrong with the aesthetic expeience. Hmm...did anyone *here* say that? Pretty much. Don't think so. Even you are subject to Bias stevie. You se what you want to see. I see what you want to see, too. It's quite obvious. That's about as backassward as it gets. in the world of meter readers the perception must bend to meet the expectations given to them by the measurements. Well, correlation of objective reality to subjective reality has its merits. It allowed the creation of things like audio gear and recordings. It did? I had no idea Edison was relying on that. Well, maybe you should do some reading on his work, too, then. yet many vinylphiles seem less interested in that than in promoting what they believe (often without basis) are audible limitations of digital. Maybe they are just looking for an explination for what they hear? Oh, you mean, an objective correlate of their subjective experience? I thought that was a nonstarter for you? Maybe you are struggling with pronouns. When I say "they" i don't mean "me." Ah, you mean people like Keith, my reply to whom set you off on this latest tirade. Pretty basic English don't you think? "I" don't worry so much about explinations unless I think they can narrow the scope of things I look out for when making purchases. "My" focus is on thr results not the explanations for those results. Scott, you'd do best not to chastise others for their command of English. You've embarrassed yourself enough as is. But you have hit on a wonderful example of the usefulness of explanations: they help you evaluate the claims of advertisers and manufacturers. If the explanation is technically or logically dubious, there's a good chance the claim is too. It's funny that having hit upon this, you backtracked immediately from it. if that is so terrible but attacking the perceptions as wrong because they don't fit the meter reader's formulas is completely reasonable. What's usually wrong is not the effort, but the execution. Vinylphile 'explanations' of digital tend to be laughable nonsense. But you love that don't you? makes you feel better about your faith in the almighty meter. Vinylphile stereotypes of the reality-based population tend to be laughable nonsense too. ___ -S "As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy, metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason |
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#430
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
In article . com,
wrote: One would think from your post that one's ability to solder has something to do with one's ability to make aesthetic judgements. Do I hve to tell you just how stupid that idea is? Engineers do the work the hobbyists consume it. So they're mutually exclusive? The ability to solder and the ability to make aestheic judgemens? Yes they are. Wonder what your only 'supporter' Mr G will make of that? He loves to build kit and is the vinyl disciple to end all disciples. Isn't that a tad pompous? No, it is a very stupid to thnk they are in any way related. I'd guess you haven't understood plain English - again. Perhaps because there aren't any curses in it. -- *If horrific means to make horrible, does terrific mean to make terrible? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#431
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
Steven Sullivan wrote: In rec.audio.tech wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: In rec.audio.tech wrote: Not at all. But then maybe iIm actually understanding what I read. But not the parts about the limits of human hearing, or the sources of errors in interpreting what is heard. These are what I was referring to as 'the well-documented limitations of listening'. Suffering from an identity crisis? You should read up on them, they're *gold*. I have actually. that is one of the many reasons I get such a laugh at the idiots on Usenet and their complete misapplication and misinerpretation of psychoacoustics. The idea that human hearing is wrong while technical measurements are right when it comes to this hobby is a prime example of that misapplication. Yeah if the meter readers can't corilate the numbers to the aesthetic experience there must be something wrong with the aesthetic expeience. Hmm...did anyone *here* say that? Pretty much. Don't think so. Even you are subject to Bias stevie. You se what you want to see. I see what you want to see, too. It's quite obvious. Do tell. What is it I want to to see? Share with us your insight. That's about as backassward as it gets. in the world of meter readers the perception must bend to meet the expectations given to them by the measurements. Well, correlation of objective reality to subjective reality has its merits. It allowed the creation of things like audio gear and recordings. It did? I had no idea Edison was relying on that. Well, maybe you should do some reading on his work, too, then. How about filling us in? yet many vinylphiles seem less interested in that than in promoting what they believe (often without basis) are audible limitations of digital. Maybe they are just looking for an explination for what they hear? Oh, you mean, an objective correlate of their subjective experience? I thought that was a nonstarter for you? Maybe you are struggling with pronouns. When I say "they" i don't mean "me." Ah, you mean people like Keith, No i don't. my reply to whom set you off on this latest tirade. tirade? Suffering from hypersensitivity? Did it really bother you that much to be the sucker who set up my joke about meter readers all sounding the same? It was just a poke. Pretty basic English don't you think? "I" don't worry so much about explinations unless I think they can narrow the scope of things I look out for when making purchases. "My" focus is on thr results not the explanations for those results. Scott, you'd do best not to chastise others for their command of English. You've embarrassed yourself enough as is. Big difference between speeling errors and mistakes like confusing "they" with" I." But really I don't think it was as much a language problem with you as it was the trappings of your prejudices. Like I said, you see what you want to see, not what I actually write. You talk about me embarrassing myself. OK put up or shut up. Without taking something out of context cite one thing that I have said about the subject of LPs v. Cds on this thread that you think was embarrassingly wrong. only rules are it has to be about the subject, I had to actually say it and you have to leave it in the context inwhich it was said. But you have hit on a wonderful example of the usefulness of explanations: they help you evaluate the claims of advertisers and manufacturers. If the explanation is technically or logically dubious, there's a good chance the claim is too. That may or may not be. never really spent any time trying to study the connection. But we aren't talking about that. Would you say the same is true of audiophiles? Would you say the claims of cause offered by audiophiles in any way reflects the claims of theaesthetic experiences that spawn those explanations? It's funny that having hit upon this, you backtracked immediately from it. How did I back track? if that is so terrible but attacking the perceptions as wrong because they don't fit the meter reader's formulas is completely reasonable. What's usually wrong is not the effort, but the execution. Vinylphile 'explanations' of digital tend to be laughable nonsense. But you love that don't you? makes you feel better about your faith in the almighty meter. Vinylphile stereotypes of the reality-based population tend to be laughable nonsense too. IOW yes. Scott |
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#432
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article . com, wrote: One would think from your post that one's ability to solder has something to do with one's ability to make aesthetic judgements. Do I hve to tell you just how stupid that idea is? Engineers do the work the hobbyists consume it. So they're mutually exclusive? The ability to solder and the ability to make aestheic judgemens? Yes they are. Wonder what your only 'supporter' Mr G will make of that? I'll bet he agrees. I think he is smart enough to know his soldering skills are independent of his listening skills. He loves to build kit Yes I have noticed that. I have yet to see him claim that his skills at building has any impact on his listening skills. and is the vinyl disciple to end all disciples. Disciple? I know he generally prefers LPs over CDs. I guess you can't wrap your punny brain around that so you have to attack it. sad Scott |
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#433
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... I seem to recall that Scott claims to have heard differences due to cables, in a single-blind test. More likely in a sighted test, like all the rest of his listening "tests". We call "single blind" tests "Egregiously flawed double blind tests". ;-) Yes, but what do you call sighted "tests" then :-) They aren't tests at all. That's why I put the word in inverted commas. It wasn't reproduced that way in OE. Funny, it's still showing them in my copy of OE6. Not that it's important. MrT. |
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#434
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... Mr.T used quotation marks which aren't top set characters so may or may not come out correctly on your reader depending on a number of things. Same as the pound sign "£" (that could be fun) so should called gbp on newsnet. For this reason most use inverted commas rather than quotation marks as these are top set characters. I see the confusion now, thanks for the tip. MrT. |
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#435
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. Now where's the specs on the cutting lathe though :-( The cutting lathe probably performs better than the user's cartridge, etc. I'm not so sure about that myself. I'm sure there were worse cutting heads than my Shure V15VMR, and there are FAR more expensive cartridges available. Or there were and probably still are some bad cutting heads, but most that were used to produce most records were pretty good. Yes, and $1,000 cartridges are pretty good. The question is HOW good at the time they are used. It was my experience that they were not always replaced as often as they should be. Trying to reduce costs is not a new concept. A more common problem was trying to make each stamper last far longer than optimum though. And using crappy vinyl compounds, and a hundred other problems some seem capable of forgetting. In fact half speed mastering was to reduce the deficiencies of the cutting lathes, Sort of. Half speed mastering mostly addressed HF losses and excess heating in the cutting heads. Sort of? Aren't those deficiencies? BTW there are some other benefits though, such as less groove flow/deformation around the cutter. t a cartridge doesn't need to cut a groove as it goes. (although some do :-) That may seem to be intuitively clear, but there are some hidden details. One hidden detail is that it is quite easy for a cutter to create a groove that can't be properly tracked by *any* cartridge. Sure, including those used to test the master. One would hope it is rejected, but amazingly some pretty bad examples were produced in days gone by. Yet the vinyl brigade insists that only CD mastering is crook :-) MrT. |
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#436
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
"Keith G" wrote in message ... Cassettes only held a certain popularity due the player being installed in 'upmarket' car audio systems for a long time **** EVERY car sold had a cassette player at one time. Much of CD's success was due to the plentiful supply of reasonably-priced hardware, What crap, the hardware was prohibitively expensive for most at the outset. The prices fell BECAUSE of mass production that comes AFTER public acceptance. The disks here in Australia were *twice* the price of the equivalent vinyl for MANY years, and still outsold vinyl before too long. SACD and DVD-A could have had the same success if the MI hadn't been so greedy with the price of new releases Actually the prices were CHEAPER (in real terms) in comparison to the original CD players and disks. However the market was extremely limited since not many could see the need for a format primarily designed for bats. (actually it was *totally* designed to make more money by selling new hardware and the same software yet again. Fortunately they failed miserably) MrT. |
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#437
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message news  SACD and DVD-A discs are and were sold for about the same price as CDs. Less than the original price of CD if adjusted for inflation. When the sales failed to take off, nobody with a brain invested in more new titles. Nobody *with a brain* invested in a SACD/DVDA player to begin with. and at least one hardware manufacturer had had the foresight to make a DVD video player with additional 5.1 *audio only* capability available at a reasonable price. As a rule DVD players do just fine with 5.1 discs that are essentially music-only. But why would you want *music only* when you can get 5.1 DVD music video's for less than the CD price in many cases? You can still listen to the sound with the TV off, if you prefer. MrT. |
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#438
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
wrote in message ups.com... LOL and that is where the world of audio begins and ends for dorks like you. Your failure to supply YOUR obviously non dictionary definition is noted. MrT. |
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#439
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
"Keith G" wrote in message ... What kills me is these clowns don't seem to realise there is no small degree of *engineering* in vinyl and vinyl playback systems... Some of us were those Engineers! We are the ones with enough experience to know when technology has moved on. You obviously don't. MrT. |
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#440
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl to CD on a PC
wrote in message ups.com... Now where is your proof to the contrary? I see no proof in the link you have quoted? MrT. |
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