These specs belong to two different Valve Amplifiers. Which one can be
considered to be better?



Product X



Specifications



Power Output - 36 watts RMS @ 1kHz into 6 Ohms 9 watts RMS (Pure Class A)
into 6Ohms

Peak Power -Output - 50 watts into 6 Ohms

Freq. Response 3 Hz to 40 kHz (+ - 0.5 dB), @ 1 watt with -Electrostatics
connected.3Hz to 100 kHz (+- 0.5 dB) into 6 Ohms at 1 watt

Rise Time 2.5 Micro Seconds @ 1 watt into 6 Ohms 8.00 Micro Seconds with
Electrostat connected

THD 0.01 % @ 1 watt 20 to 20kHz in 6 Ohms

0.1 % @ 10 watts into 6 Ohms

0.6 % @ 36 watts (1kHz

IM Distortion

0.01 % 250 Hz + 8020 Hz (@ 1 watt into 6 Ohms)

Dynamic Range 108 dB

Input Impedance 10 K Ohms

Output Impedance 6 Ohms ( 4 to 8 Ohms)

Damping Factor 26

Input Sensitivity 1 V - 35 watts

Power Consumption 170 watts

Weight 50 Kgs.







Product Y



Specification

Power Tube 833

Effective -Power output 150 watts

Frequency range 20Hz-100KHz

Input sensitivity 1.0Vrms

Input impedance 100k ohms

S/N ratio 100dB

Power consumption 800W(each)

-Load impedance 4/8 ohms

External dimensions 435Wx525Dx305H(mm)

Weight 50kg(each)

(exclude power supply)

On 8/18/04 10:44 AM, in article , "Chelvam"
wrote:

These specs belong to two different Valve Amplifiers. Which one can be
considered to be better?

The one that sound best in your system and sits easiest within your budget!

[snip]

Chelvam wrote:

These specs belong to two different Valve Amplifiers. Which one can be
considered to be better?
=========================

I don't know because I have not heard either one, and neither do you,
until you do.

-GP

B&D wrote in message ...
On 8/18/04 10:44 AM, in article , "Chelvam"
wrote:

These specs belong to two different Valve Amplifiers. Which one can be
considered to be better?

The one that sound best in your system and sits easiest within your budget!



Neither one! One costs 5x more than my current Amp (and my budget) and
the other about 60x. I was looking for some specs to be used as "the
standard" before picking one with the closest match. Not the best way
to buy but audition is becoming more difficult these days.

So far, it appears that THD and output correlates with price.

TChelvam wrote:


Neither one! One costs 5x more than my current Amp (and my budget) and
the other about 60x. I was looking for some specs to be used as "the
standard" before picking one with the closest match. Not the best way
to buy but audition is becoming more difficult these days.

So far, it appears that THD and output correlates with price.


So what? That all means nil unless you can correlate THD and/or output
and/or price with how the amplifier SOUNDS.

-GP

Chelvam wrote:

These specs belong to two different Valve Amplifiers. Which one can be
considered to be better?

snip specs for brevity

Since the specs for product X and product Y specify entirely different
parameters, there is no meaningful comparison that can be made on this
information alone, let alone decisions about which is *better*.


Graham

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
Chelvam wrote:

These specs belong to two different Valve Amplifiers. Which one can be
considered to be better?

snip specs for brevity

Since the specs for product X and product Y specify entirely different
parameters, there is no meaningful comparison that can be made on this
information alone, let alone decisions about which is *better*.


Yes, that's why I posted the question. The product x was a $25,000 VA-1 of
www.cadenceaudio.com and the product Y is WAVAC's 833.



What I don't get is the specifications are not uniform and they give
different parameters for different model. And I have one more manufacturer
who says "There is a difference between TAC 34 , TAC 88 , TAC 834 , Magma ,
Audio Institute and our MODIFIED IN ENGLAND valve amplifier ! ( Unscrupulous
dealers who tell you that they are the same are liars , and breaking the law
of "Trade Description Act" ! )" . This the boldest statement that I have
heard so far. http://www.affordablevalvecompany.com/index.html but somehow
I can't find the specs in there.

Surely there must be some standard set by AES or other audio engineering
organisation for amplifiers.

There is no law that would be effective for getting manufacturers to
conform measurements. They can simply provide other measurements or
none at all. If you have enough dough, you could buy them both and
have them tested at an independent lab using the same gear and group
of tests. Even armed with those results, you would not be able to make
a choice of which amp would "sound best". My advise is not to lose any
sleep over it and listen to things before purchasing them. The proof
is in the pudding.
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"Chelvam" wrote in message
...
"Pooh Bear" wrote in
message
...
Chelvam wrote:

These specs belong to two different Valve Amplifiers. Which one
can be
considered to be better?

snip specs for brevity

Since the specs for product X and product Y specify entirely
different
parameters, there is no meaningful comparison that can be made on
this
information alone, let alone decisions about which is *better*.


Yes, that's why I posted the question. The product x was a $25,000
VA-1 of
www.cadenceaudio.com and the product Y is WAVAC's 833.



What I don't get is the specifications are not uniform and they give
different parameters for different model. And I have one more
manufacturer
who says "There is a difference between TAC 34 , TAC 88 , TAC 834 ,
Magma ,
Audio Institute and our MODIFIED IN ENGLAND valve amplifier ! (
Unscrupulous
dealers who tell you that they are the same are liars , and breaking
the law
of "Trade Description Act" ! )" . This the boldest statement that I
have
heard so far. http://www.affordablevalvecompany.com/index.html but
somehow
I can't find the specs in there.

Surely there must be some standard set by AES or other audio
engineering
organisation for amplifiers.

Chelvam wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
Chelvam wrote:

These specs belong to two different Valve Amplifiers. Which one can be
considered to be better?

snip specs for brevity

Since the specs for product X and product Y specify entirely different
parameters, there is no meaningful comparison that can be made on this
information alone, let alone decisions about which is *better*.


Yes, that's why I posted the question. The product x was a $25,000 VA-1 of
www.cadenceaudio.com and the product Y is WAVAC's 833.

I would be deeply sceptical of any audio amplifier product with a price of
$25,000. It's simply pandering to 'boutique audio' marketing that claims
*magical* properties for their product only of course ! And pandering to those
with deep pockets too of course !

What I don't get is the specifications are not uniform and they give
different parameters for different model.

I am most involved with the professional audio trade. Most manufacturers in that
realm have no difficulty presenting full and meaningful specifications that are
easily compared.

A manufacturer in the hi-fi realm who chooses to avoid quoting recognised
technical measurements should be questioned for their reasoning IMHO.

You may choose to let the manufacturer's reluctance to quote full and meaningful
figures influence your estimation of them.


And I have one more manufacturer
who says "There is a difference between TAC 34 , TAC 88 , TAC 834 , Magma ,
Audio Institute and our MODIFIED IN ENGLAND valve amplifier ! ( Unscrupulous
dealers who tell you that they are the same are liars , and breaking the law
of "Trade Description Act" ! )" . This the boldest statement that I have
heard so far. http://www.affordablevalvecompany.com/index.html but somehow
I can't find the specs in there.

I believe I saw this recently on ebay.co.uk or a link from there too. Seems to
apply to imported valve amps of Chinese manufacture.


Surely there must be some standard set by AES or other audio engineering
organisation for amplifiers.

I don't think the AES has ever felt the need to intervene ! The AES does however
publish recommended test *techniques / methods*. I assume that they expect that
those test figures might then be published ! They can't force ppl to however.
Any competent manufacturer knows what scecifications are routinely published. If
they choose not to publish recognised technical specs - then caveat emptor.
WAVEC's 'spec' was deeply lacking in meaningful detail.

Specs can only give you a portion of the picture however. The distortion specs
that are typically published for example ( usually THD - total harmonic
distortion ) give insufficient information about the distortion spectrum to make
a truly informed choice between ( especially ) those products using different
circuit toplogies. E.g. Valve / solid state : class A / class AB : linear / PWM
( digital ) to name just a few possibilities.

In comparison a signal to noise ratio is quite meaningful ( the bigger the
better ). Similarly, frequency response should be 'flat' ( +/- the least number
of dB - ideally 0.5 for example ) over the whole of - or more than the entire
audio spectrum to avoid obvious signal colouration. In practice, a flat
frequency response is pretty easy to acheive these days.


Graham

Uptown Audio wrote:

My advise is not to lose any sleep over it and listen to things before
purchasing them. The proof
is in the pudding.

Always good advice but be aware of the effect of different listening
environments if you can't do this at home.

Graham

I don't know what the law is in the UK, but the issue is moot; you
shouldn't buy ANY valve amplifier. Certainly not one that costs 4
figures. Yes, that would be a big IMO.

Norm Strong


"Uptown Audio" wrote in message
...
There is no law that would be effective for getting manufacturers to
conform measurements. They can simply provide other measurements or
none at all. If you have enough dough, you could buy them both and
have them tested at an independent lab using the same gear and group
of tests. Even armed with those results, you would not be able to
make
a choice of which amp would "sound best". My advise is not to lose
any
sleep over it and listen to things before purchasing them. The proof
is in the pudding.
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"Chelvam" wrote in message
...
"Pooh Bear" wrote in
message
...
Chelvam wrote:

These specs belong to two different Valve Amplifiers. Which
one
can be
considered to be better?

snip specs for brevity

Since the specs for product X and product Y specify entirely
different
parameters, there is no meaningful comparison that can be made
on
this
information alone, let alone decisions about which is *better*.


Yes, that's why I posted the question. The product x was a $25,000
VA-1 of
www.cadenceaudio.com and the product Y is WAVAC's 833.



What I don't get is the specifications are not uniform and they
give
different parameters for different model. And I have one more
manufacturer
who says "There is a difference between TAC 34 , TAC 88 , TAC 834
,
Magma ,
Audio Institute and our MODIFIED IN ENGLAND valve amplifier ! (
Unscrupulous
dealers who tell you that they are the same are liars , and
breaking
the law
of "Trade Description Act" ! )" . This the boldest statement that
I
have
heard so far. http://www.affordablevalvecompany.com/index.html
but
somehow
I can't find the specs in there.

Surely there must be some standard set by AES or other audio
engineering
organisation for amplifiers.

Chelvam wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
Chelvam wrote:

These specs belong to two different Valve Amplifiers. Which one can be
considered to be better?

Your question makes no sense as stated. Better at what? And before you say,
"Playing music!", amps don't play music. Amps drive loudspeakers. If you had
the right measurements (of both amps and speakers) you could make some
intelligent distinctions about which amp might be better at driving a
particular set of speakers.

But specs aren't measurements. Specs are marketing. Or, to put it another
way, spec sheets are drawn up with an eye to making the product appear as
good as possible, or to target buyers looking for particular things. Beyond
honestly reported power ratings (which already seems to be asking a lot in
some cases), there isn't much I would trust on any amp's spec sheet. Then
again, given my own perspective and needs, there isn't much else I need to
know.

(Based on the specs you quoted, I wouldn't give either of those products a
second thought. Neither quotes a meaningful power rating, so they can't even
answer the most basic question: Can it drive my speakers?)

snip specs for brevity

Since the specs for product X and product Y specify entirely different
parameters, there is no meaningful comparison that can be made on this
information alone, let alone decisions about which is *better*.


Yes, that's why I posted the question. The product x was a $25,000 VA-1 of
www.cadenceaudio.com* and the product Y is WAVAC's 833.

What I don't get is the specifications are not uniform and they give
different parameters for different model. And I have one more manufacturer
who says "There is a difference between TAC 34 , TAC 88 , TAC 834 , Magma ,
Audio Institute and our MODIFIED IN ENGLAND valve amplifier ! (
Unscrupulous
dealers who tell you that they are the same are liars , and breaking the
law
of "Trade Description Act" ! )" . This the boldest statement that I have
heard so far. http://www.affordablevalvecompany.com/index.html but somehow
I can't find the specs in there.

I suggest you stop looking for truth--or at least the complete truth--in
advertisements. And everything you see on a manufacturer's web page is
advertising. (And almost everything you read on the Web--or for that matter
in print--is based on that advertising.)

Surely there must be some standard set by AES or other audio engineering
organisation for amplifiers.

And if there were, why would a manufacturer use them, rather than presenting
the specs that put his product in the best light? Objective comparisons are
somebody else's job.

bob

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Uptown Audio wrote:

There is no law that would be effective for getting manufacturers to
conform measurements. They can simply provide other measurements or
none at all. If you have enough dough, you could buy them both and
have them tested at an independent lab using the same gear and group
of tests. Even armed with those results, you would not be able to make
a choice of which amp would "sound best". My advise is not to lose any
sleep over it and listen to things before purchasing them. The proof
is in the pudding.
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250



Better yet, go on ebay and pick up a used adcom for $300 or $400. With
300 to 400 w/channel and vanishing
distortion, the specs'll make you happy.

And, evryone who's anyone knows you can't here the difference between
well engineered amplifiers anyway, so i
gnore all the tube amp hogwash

auplater