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Preamp, srround, SACD bass management
Can anyone discuss possible choices for a multi-channel
preamp/processor, or receiver, capable of decoding Dolby 5.1 audio on DVD discs, etc., that would also have good response on multi-channel SACD's and stereo CD's? My present system doesn't have bass management provisions for SACD multi-channel or provisions for varying the crossover points between the sub and the front, center, and rear speakers, and my speakers include the Magneplanar MG-3.6 and several other Maggies, several of which have limited bass response. - So, it seems to me that I need something that will provide some sort of bass management for playing the multi-channel SACDs. I don't think that using full-range speakers on all channels would be practical with the Maggies. - Although the response of the 3.6's is incredible IMO, they are six feet tall. One possible option may be the Rotel RSP-1098, in which crossover points of all the speakers can be individually adjusted. I recognize that this isn't bass management in the same sense as it is practiced in the Dolby 5.1 decoders, but at least it would protect my center and surround speakers. However, $3,000 is more than I want to pay. I also understand that Pioneer has at least two models in which bass management of SACD signals is possible while the signals are still in digital form. Recommended? For what it's worth, I have also tried the Outlaw ICBM for SACD bass management. - My impression was that it could provide impressive, dynamic surround sound, but it seemed to subtract something from the accuracy of the mains. - I didn't get the same clean Maggie sound that I get when playing CDs or stereo SACDs through my old (Carver) preamp. Thanks for any suggestions. Jim Cate |
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#3
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#4
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Jim Cate wrote:
Can anyone discuss possible choices for a multi-channel preamp/processor, or receiver, capable of decoding Dolby 5.1 audio on DVD discs, etc., that would also have good response on multi-channel SACD's and stereo CD's? My present system doesn't have bass management provisions for SACD multi-channel or provisions for varying the crossover points between the sub and the front, center, and rear speakers, and my speakers include the Magneplanar MG-3.6 and several other Maggies, several of which have limited bass response. - So, it seems to me that I need something that will provide some sort of bass management for playing the multi-channel SACDs. I don't think that using full-range speakers on all channels would be practical with the Maggies. - Although the response of the 3.6's is incredible IMO, they are six feet tall. I think the top end of Pioneer's, Denon's and Yamaha's receiver lines these days can handle a digital (firewire) input of hi-rez sources (assuyming you have a player with that output) and thus can do bass management and time alignment internally. Some also have variable crossovers for each channel. I would look into those brands -- you can often download the user's manuals from the mfrs sites.. One possible option may be the Rotel RSP-1098, in which crossover points of all the speakers can be individually adjusted. I recognize that this isn't bass management in the same sense as it is practiced in the Dolby 5.1 decoders, but at least it would protect my center and surround speakers. However, $3,000 is more than I want to pay. I also understand that Pioneer has at least two models in which bass management of SACD signals is possible while the signals are still in digital form. Recommended? For what it's worth, I have also tried the Outlaw ICBM for SACD bass management. - My impression was that it could provide impressive, dynamic surround sound, but it seemed to subtract something from the accuracy of the mains. - I didn't get the same clean Maggie sound that I get when playing CDs or stereo SACDs through my old (Carver) preamp. I don't know why that would be the case...the Outlaw box provides separate crossover adjustement for mains vs center vs surround. Were you comparing apples to apples (e.g. a CD played with and without the Outlaw box in the circuit)? -- -S Your a boring little troll. How does it feel? Go blow your bad breath elsewhere. |
#5
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"Jim Cate" wrote in message
... Can anyone discuss possible choices for a multi-channel preamp/processor, or receiver, capable of decoding Dolby 5.1 audio on DVD discs, etc., that would also have good response on multi-channel SACD's and stereo CD's? My present system doesn't have bass management provisions for SACD multi-channel or provisions for varying the crossover points between the sub and the front, center, and rear speakers, and my speakers include the Magneplanar MG-3.6 and several other Maggies, several of which have limited bass response. - So, it seems to me that I need something that will provide some sort of bass management for playing the multi-channel SACDs. I don't think that using full-range speakers on all channels would be practical with the Maggies. - Although the response of the 3.6's is incredible IMO, they are six feet tall. One possible option may be the Rotel RSP-1098, in which crossover points of all the speakers can be individually adjusted. I recognize that this isn't bass management in the same sense as it is practiced in the Dolby 5.1 decoders, but at least it would protect my center and surround speakers. However, $3,000 is more than I want to pay. I also understand that Pioneer has at least two models in which bass management of SACD signals is possible while the signals are still in digital form. Recommended? For what it's worth, I have also tried the Outlaw ICBM for SACD bass management. - My impression was that it could provide impressive, dynamic surround sound, but it seemed to subtract something from the accuracy of the mains. - I didn't get the same clean Maggie sound that I get when playing CDs or stereo SACDs through my old (Carver) preamp. Thanks for any suggestions. Jim - I believe (but check first) that the new Denon 3805 receiver has individual bass management on SACD and DVD-A as well as the video modes. I believe a new receiver from Onkyo does as well. I believe both also have preamp outs so you can use them as a preamp-processor with existing power amps. The Denon has a MSRSP of $1200 and is considered a bargain at that price. I'm not sure of the Onkyo's price, but remember it as being under $2000. Hope this helps. Harry |
#6
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Steven Sullivan wrote:
Jim Cate wrote: Can anyone discuss possible choices for a multi-channel preamp/processor, or receiver, capable of decoding Dolby 5.1 audio on DVD discs, etc., that would also have good response on multi-channel SACD's and stereo CD's? My present system doesn't have bass management provisions for SACD multi-channel or provisions for varying the crossover points between the sub and the front, center, and rear speakers, and my speakers include the Magneplanar MG-3.6 and several other Maggies, several of which have limited bass response. - So, it seems to me that I need something that will provide some sort of bass management for playing the multi-channel SACDs. I don't think that using full-range speakers on all channels would be practical with the Maggies. - Although the response of the 3.6's is incredible IMO, they are six feet tall. I think the top end of Pioneer's, Denon's and Yamaha's receiver lines these days can handle a digital (firewire) input of hi-rez sources (assuyming you have a player with that output) and thus can do bass management and time alignment internally. Some also have variable crossovers for each channel. I would look into those brands -- you can often download the user's manuals from the mfrs sites.. One possible option may be the Rotel RSP-1098, in which crossover points of all the speakers can be individually adjusted. I recognize that this isn't bass management in the same sense as it is practiced in the Dolby 5.1 decoders, but at least it would protect my center and surround speakers. However, $3,000 is more than I want to pay. I also understand that Pioneer has at least two models in which bass management of SACD signals is possible while the signals are still in digital form. Recommended? For what it's worth, I have also tried the Outlaw ICBM for SACD bass management. - My impression was that it could provide impressive, dynamic surround sound, but it seemed to subtract something from the accuracy of the mains. - I didn't get the same clean Maggie sound that I get when playing CDs or stereo SACDs through my old (Carver) preamp. I don't know why that would be the case...the Outlaw box provides separate crossover adjustement for mains vs center vs surround. Were you comparing apples to apples (e.g. a CD played with and without the Outlaw box in the circuit)? When you say: "I don't know why that would be the case..." are you actually saying that it wouldn't be the case, and that I wasn't actually hearing the distortion I thought I was hearing? In answer to your question regarding the connections, I was comparing what I heard through the Maggie MG-3.6 mains when the (stereo) signal from the preamp was sent to the amps through the Carver preamp with what I heard when the signal was played through an Onkyo receiver with line level outputs also connected to the same power amp, with the same stereo CD, with the receiver switched to stereo mode. - Could be the fault of the receiver, but I don't think that was the problem. The Outlaw ICBM adds an extra set of input interconnects, outputs, crossover networks, potentiometers, etc., to each channel, all of which may add some slight degree of distortion. Perhaps that's why the sound seems more "veiled" to me when using the ICBM (as also reported in the October issue of Sterephile, page 75). Obviously, a preamp-processor with the same type of bass management and blending circuitry built into a preamp-processor may also introduce a deleterious effect on the response, but it may be better thn what I have now, which is why I asked for suggestions. Jim and ther |
#7
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Is there a reason that you suggest looking into top end receivers rather
than preamp-decoders? (I have six channels of power amps and a woofer and don't really need the additional power amp sections.) It is interesting that most of the preamps are priced higher than most of the receivers, which include multiple power amps. It would seem that if you want a preamp with the same quality as a high end Yamaha or Dennon receiver, they should reduce the price accordingly. Or are all preamps of higher quality and price than most receivers? Jim Steven Sullivan wrote: Jim Cate wrote: Can anyone discuss possible choices for a multi-channel preamp/processor, or receiver, capable of decoding Dolby 5.1 audio on DVD discs, etc., that would also have good response on multi-channel SACD's and stereo CD's? My present system doesn't have bass management provisions for SACD multi-channel or provisions for varying the crossover points between the sub and the front, center, and rear speakers, and my speakers include the Magneplanar MG-3.6 and several other Maggies, several of which have limited bass response. - So, it seems to me that I need something that will provide some sort of bass management for playing the multi-channel SACDs. I don't think that using full-range speakers on all channels would be practical with the Maggies. - Although the response of the 3.6's is incredible IMO, they are six feet tall. I think the top end of Pioneer's, Denon's and Yamaha's receiver lines these days can handle a digital (firewire) input of hi-rez sources (assuyming you have a player with that output) and thus can do bass management and time alignment internally. Some also have variable crossovers for each channel. I would look into those brands -- you can often download the user's manuals from the mfrs sites.. One possible option may be the Rotel RSP-1098, in which crossover points of all the speakers can be individually adjusted. I recognize that this isn't bass management in the same sense as it is practiced in the Dolby 5.1 decoders, but at least it would protect my center and surround speakers. However, $3,000 is more than I want to pay. I also understand that Pioneer has at least two models in which bass management of SACD signals is possible while the signals are still in digital form. Recommended? For what it's worth, I have also tried the Outlaw ICBM for SACD bass management. - My impression was that it could provide impressive, dynamic surround sound, but it seemed to subtract something from the accuracy of the mains. - I didn't get the same clean Maggie sound that I get when playing CDs or stereo SACDs through my old (Carver) preamp. I don't know why that would be the case...the Outlaw box provides separate crossover adjustement for mains vs center vs surround. Were you comparing apples to apples (e.g. a CD played with and without the Outlaw box in the circuit)? |
#8
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Jim Cate wrote:
Steven Sullivan wrote: Jim Cate wrote: Can anyone discuss possible choices for a multi-channel preamp/processor, or receiver, capable of decoding Dolby 5.1 audio on DVD discs, etc., that would also have good response on multi-channel SACD's and stereo CD's? My present system doesn't have bass management provisions for SACD multi-channel or provisions for varying the crossover points between the sub and the front, center, and rear speakers, and my speakers include the Magneplanar MG-3.6 and several other Maggies, several of which have limited bass response. - So, it seems to me that I need something that will provide some sort of bass management for playing the multi-channel SACDs. I don't think that using full-range speakers on all channels would be practical with the Maggies. - Although the response of the 3.6's is incredible IMO, they are six feet tall. I think the top end of Pioneer's, Denon's and Yamaha's receiver lines these days can handle a digital (firewire) input of hi-rez sources (assuyming you have a player with that output) and thus can do bass management and time alignment internally. Some also have variable crossovers for each channel. I would look into those brands -- you can often download the user's manuals from the mfrs sites.. One possible option may be the Rotel RSP-1098, in which crossover points of all the speakers can be individually adjusted. I recognize that this isn't bass management in the same sense as it is practiced in the Dolby 5.1 decoders, but at least it would protect my center and surround speakers. However, $3,000 is more than I want to pay. I also understand that Pioneer has at least two models in which bass management of SACD signals is possible while the signals are still in digital form. Recommended? For what it's worth, I have also tried the Outlaw ICBM for SACD bass management. - My impression was that it could provide impressive, dynamic surround sound, but it seemed to subtract something from the accuracy of the mains. - I didn't get the same clean Maggie sound that I get when playing CDs or stereo SACDs through my old (Carver) preamp. I don't know why that would be the case...the Outlaw box provides separate crossover adjustement for mains vs center vs surround. Were you comparing apples to apples (e.g. a CD played with and without the Outlaw box in the circuit)? When you say: "I don't know why that would be the case..." are you actually saying that it wouldn't be the case, and that I wasn't actually hearing the distortion I thought I was hearing? Possibly that, or possibly it wasn't due to anything intrinsic about the Outlaw, but simply due to the configuration. In answer to your question regarding the connections, I was comparing what I heard through the Maggie MG-3.6 mains when the (stereo) signal from the preamp was sent to the amps through the Carver preamp with what I heard when the signal was played through an Onkyo receiver with line level outputs also connected to the same power amp, with the same stereo CD, with the receiver switched to stereo mode. - Could be the fault of the receiver, but I don't think that was the problem. Given the variables involved, it could be something as simple as the levels not being matched. The Outlaw ICBM adds an extra set of input interconnects, outputs, crossover networks, potentiometers, etc., to each channel, all of which may add some slight degree of distortion. May, but Outlaw does strive for transparency. Perhaps that's why the sound seems more "veiled" to me when using the ICBM (as also reported in the October issue of Sterephile, page 75). Well, but it could also certainly bias your perception (and Stereophile's). Btw, did you read the Stereophile review before, or after, you bought the ICBM? Obviously, a preamp-processor with the same type of bass management and blending circuitry built into a preamp-processor may also introduce a deleterious effect on the response, but it may be better thn what I have now, which is why I asked for suggestions. If you were to compare the Outlaw in and out of the circuit in a more controlled fashion, you might find that what you've got is fine. (One thing the Outlaw ICBM can't do exactly right, though, is allow time delay adjustment of center and surround speakers -- Outlaw even mentions this in their user's manual. But IIRC you are concerned here with two-channel reproduction + sub.) -- -S |
#9
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Jim Cate wrote:
Is there a reason that you suggest looking into top end receivers rather than preamp-decoders? (I have six channels of power amps and a woofer and don't really need the additional power amp sections.) It is interesting that most of the preamps are priced higher than most of the receivers, which include multiple power amps. It would seem that if you want a preamp with the same quality as a high end Yamaha or Dennon receiver, they should reduce the price accordingly. Or are all preamps of higher quality and price than most receivers? Probably not, maybe there are a few more controls. I think, the gadget is priced to comparative units, not to manufacturing costs. The mass market has more competition, so the price is lower. It is similar to tube amps and so on. Of course the sales volume is also low, so the development costs have to be distributed over less units, which partly explaines the higher price. It is also the case that separate units will have additional A/D and D/A converters, to be universally usable together with receptacles, control knobs etc. the electronic circuits comprise only a small fraction of the price, most is eaten up by the case, knobs and receptacles. It's like a car, you do not buy it because of the engine but because of the color, my wife at least. -- ciao Ban Bordighera, Italy |
#10
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Jim Cate wrote:
Is there a reason that you suggest looking into top end receivers rather than preamp-decoders? (I have six channels of power amps and a woofer and don't really need the additional power amp sections.) Simplicity. I like the idea of two boxes, one cable, and consistency in DSP from there on. Right now, for hi-rez, you can only get that with certain combinations of players and receivers. Or almost only: here's a more-or-less current list of i-link (firewire) compatible receivers/players/prepros that I copied from AVSforum.com. SOrry if the formatting is screwy: // ------------------------i.Link and A&M Compatible Products Type ------ Company ------- Model -------- MSRP ------- When First Avail Receiver----Pioneer Elite-----Vsx-49TXi------$4500-----------------Oct 02 Receiver----Pioneer Elite-----Vsx-55TXi------$1700------------------July 03 Receiver----Sony ES-------STR-DA9000ES-----$4500-------------------Oct 03 Receiver----Yamaha--------RX-Z9----------$4500------------------Dec 03 Receiver----Pioneer Elite---Vsx-59TXi-----$4500-----------------Jan 04 Receiver----Denon----------AVR-5805-----$6000---------------Oct 04 Receiver----Onkyo-------------TX-NR1000--$4000------------------Q4 04(?) Receiver----Integra-------------DTR 10.5----$3500---------------Q4 04(?) Receiver----Pioneer Elite----VSX-56TXi---$1700----------------already avail -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pre/Pro-----Denon-----AVP-1x(prototype)--$expensive$-------------2005(?) Pre/Pro-----Integra Research---RDC-7.1---$4000----------------Q4 04(?) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DVD-A/SACD--Pioneer Elite----DV-47ai---------$1200------------Oct 02 DVD-A/SACD--MSB Tech--Super DVD Audio Player-$7995--------already avail DVD-A/SACD--Denon-----------*DVD-5900*------$2000------------ Sept 03 DVD-A/SACD--Denon---DVD-1x(prototype)----$expensive$-----------2005 DVD-A/SACD--Pioneer Elite----DV-59AVi--------$1600--------------------Jan 04 DVD-A/SACD--Onkyo--------DV-SP1000-----$2000-------------------- Q4 04(?) DVD-A/SACD--Integra------DPS 10.5------$2500-----------------Q4 04(?) DVD-A/SACD--Integra Research---RDV-1.1----$4000------------------Q4 04(?) DVD-A/SACD--Denon--------DVD-3910-----$1299-----------------Aug 04 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SACD/CD-----Sony ES------SCD-XA9000ES----$3000-----------Oct 03 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Misc. D/A converter--Esoteric------D-70-------------$6500-----------already avail LEGEND (?) - Info is not definite or unknown * The 5900's i.Link port doesn't work properly and a fix has been provided by Denon see here for details http://www.audioholics.com/firmware/. Players the last 5 digits of their serial#?s ending in more than 10000 do not need the upgrade. // I have an ICBM/receiver/6-ch setup currently, and I'm rather looking forward to reducing all the cable clutter and multiple speaker configuration setups. It is interesting that most of the preamps are priced higher than most of the receivers, which include multiple power amps. It would seem that if you want a preamp with the same quality as a high end Yamaha or Dennon receiver, they should reduce the price accordingly. Or are all preamps of higher quality and price than most receivers? I dont; think there's any hard and fast rule. Personally, I buy solid-state stuff based on features and price rather than sound. |
#11
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Jim Cate wrote in message ...
It is interesting that most of the preamps are priced higher than most of the receivers, which include multiple power amps. It would seem that if you want a preamp with the same quality as a high end Yamaha or Dennon receiver, they should reduce the price accordingly. Or are all preamps of higher quality and price than most receivers? They might be, but there are two other possible explanations for the price disparity: 1) Volume: The market for receivers is much larger than that for separates, so the manufacturer of the former enjoys huge economies of scale. 2) Market Segmentation: Buyers of separates are generally willing to pay more, so manufacturers willingly oblige them. bob |
#12
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On 14 Sep 2004 03:10:15 GMT, Jim Cate wrote:
The Outlaw ICBM adds an extra set of input interconnects, outputs, crossover networks, potentiometers, etc., to each channel, all of which may add some slight degree of distortion. Perhaps that's why the sound seems more "veiled" to me when using the ICBM (as also reported in the October issue of Sterephile, page 75). Obviously, a preamp-processor with the same type of bass management and blending circuitry built into a preamp-processor may also introduce a deleterious effect on the response, but it may be better thn what I have now, which is why I asked for suggestions. Hey, don't put me in the middle of this. What I said there was "...any very slight veiling that I might have heard with the Outlaw was more than outweighed by the advantages gained by its use." Note that there is a conditional, "might," in that sentence since the listening conditions with the ICBM and without it are necessarily different. Aside from the additional cables required, there's no reason to think that the ICBM is less transparent than additional A/D/A processing. Kal |
#13
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Steven Sullivan wrote:
Jim Cate wrote: Can anyone discuss possible choices for a multi-channel preamp/processor, or receiver, capable of decoding Dolby 5.1 audio on DVD discs, etc., that would also have good response on multi-channel SACD's and stereo CD's? My present system doesn't have bass management provisions for SACD multi-channel Possibly the cheapest way to solve that would be to buy a recent SACD player. Most if not all have that. or provisions for varying the crossover points between the sub and the front, center, and rear speakers, Usually you can chose between "large" (full-range) and "small" (limited bass) for each speaker. ( usually the fronts must be larger or equal to the center which must be larger or equal than the rears. That is, you can't chose "large" for the rears and "small" for the fronts.) In some receivers the crossover frequency can also be selected. But making the crossover, for instance, at 60 Hz for one group of speakers and 100 Hz for others, I suspect will be a rare feature. But check the owner's manual. For instance the manual of the Yamaha DSP-Z9 says: "Cross Over (Cross over)" Use this feature to select a cross-over (cut-off) frequency for all low-frequency signals. All frequencies below the selected frequency are sent to the subwoofer. Choices: 40Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz (THX), 90Hz, 100Hz, 110Hz, 120Hz, 160Hz, 200Hz speaker. " This is a setting separate from the choice of type of speakers, so it applies to all of them. I think the top end of Pioneer's [have I-link], Pioneers VSA-AX10Ai-S or VSX-AX5i-S http://www.pioneer-eur.com/eur/produ...onomy_id=62-98 http://www.pioneer-eur.com/eur/produ...onomy_id=62-98 Denon's I am not familiar with the Denon range but I know they use "DENON LINK", a non-standard technology, for the digital link. Only available on the AVC-A1SRA A/V Surround Amplifier ? http://www.web-quality.ch/WQ/DSB_Anb...=De nonUK#top and Yamaha's receiver Yamaha DSP-Z9 http://yamaha-hifi.de/index.php?lang=e&idcat1=1 http://www.yamaha-audio.co.uk/homeci...ifiers/dsp-z9/ http://www.yamaha-audio.co.uk/pdfs/manuals/DSPZ9.pdf I suspect (hope) that the future Yamahas RX-V1500 and RX-V2500 (or whatever the replacements of the current RX-V1400 and RX-V2400 will be called) might also have I-link (firewire), but that is just a guess. lines these days can handle a digital (firewire) input of hi-rez sources (assuyming you have a player with that output) and thus can do bass management and time alignment internally. Some also have variable crossovers for each channel. I would look into those brands -- you can often download the user's manuals from the mfrs sites.. And if not, chose another manufacturer. -- http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/ ..pt is Portugal| `Whom the gods love die young'-Menander (342-292 BC) Europe | Villeneuve 50-82, Toivonen 56-86, Senna 60-94 |
#14
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Jim Cate wrote:
Is there a reason that you suggest looking into top end receivers rather than preamp-decoders? (I have six channels of power amps and a woofer and don't really need the additional power amp sections.) For instance in the Yamaha range the only preamp-decoders are discontinued (They were not exactly preamps, since only the front channels (and subwoofer) were connected to a power amplifier. The other 3 channels had power amps for direct connection to the center and surround speakers.) When I was looking at catalogues some time ago, of the brands I checked IIRC, only Marantz had a preamp-decoder, although I can't find it now. I found the mono amplifier: http://www.marantz.com/p_product.cfm...f&serie s=ran It is interesting that most of the preamps are priced higher than most of the receivers, which include multiple power amps. It would seem that if you want a preamp with the same quality as a high end Yamaha or Dennon receiver, they should reduce the price accordingly. If Yamaha or Denon removed the power amplifiers from their receivers the resulting model would sell much less. The increase in price due to that would probably be higher than the cost of the power amplifiers. Or are all preamps of higher quality and price than most receivers? Probably just a case of a relatively mass-market product versus a small-series product with all that this implies in the amortization of R&D and marketing expenses and lack of large scale savings (I can't remember the correct expression for this). -- http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/ ..pt is Portugal| `Whom the gods love die young'-Menander (342-292 BC) Europe | Villeneuve 50-82, Toivonen 56-86, Senna 60-94 |
#15
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Kalman Rubinson wrote:
On 14 Sep 2004 03:10:15 GMT, Jim Cate wrote: The Outlaw ICBM adds an extra set of input interconnects, outputs, crossover networks, potentiometers, etc., to each channel, all of which may add some slight degree of distortion. Perhaps that's why the sound seems more "veiled" to me when using the ICBM (as also reported in the October issue of Sterephile, page 75). Obviously, a preamp-processor with the same type of bass management and blending circuitry built into a preamp-processor may also introduce a deleterious effect on the response, but it may be better thn what I have now, which is why I asked for suggestions. Hey, don't put me in the middle of this. What I said there was "...any very slight veiling that I might have heard with the Outlaw was more than outweighed by the advantages gained by its use." Note that there is a conditional, "might," in that sentence since the listening conditions with the ICBM and without it are necessarily different. Aside from the additional cables required, there's no reason to think that the ICBM is less transparent than additional A/D/A processing. Kal Well, I suppose I should be impressed, or even intimidated, that the Sterephile author himself is chiming in. - Sorry, I'm not. Kal, it seems to me that when you offer conclusions to the effect that there is "no reason to think that the ICBM is less transparent than additional A/D/A processing," you are making a judgment relating to interpretations of physics and electrical circuitry theory, as distinguished from offering a subjective opinion as to how one component sounds relative to another. (Your statement was that "there is no reason....", not, "in my opinion," or "to my knowledge," there is no reason....) For the record, what is your technical education? Do you have training from a technical institution, or a BS or Ph.D. in physics, EE, etc.? Please understand that I'm not at all questioning your qualifications to review audio components, and I'm not saying that you are wrong. I'm merely pointing out that you are posting conclusions that in effect constitute interpretations of principles of physics rather than subjective evaluations based on listening tests involving the components of interest. Had you said: I have a hunch that..., or I have a gut feeling that....., I would have no problem with your statement. Second, if in fact there was no basis for suspecting that there was a "veiling" of the sound, even if "slight," why did you bring it up in the first place? Alternatively, if there WAS "veiling" of the sound, do you have test results that confirm that it's only a "very slight" veiling no matter what speaker is entailed? E.g., the Maggies seem to be quite transparent and revealing of what's between them and the source. Some other speakers have similar characteristics. - Do your conclusions apply equally to all of them? Jim |
#16
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Jim Cate wrote:
Check into the new Sony STR-DA-2000-ES or STR-DA-3000-ES. There is a review out on the 2000. Both should have everything you want plus clean sound. Best price will probably be from Etronics.com online. I'm using a new Pioneer VSX-1014TX-K which sounds great and is a steal at the street price. But its bass management uses a common crossover choice for all channels. I preferred a unit with automatic setup. Can anyone discuss possible choices for a multi-channel preamp/processor, or receiver, capable of decoding Dolby 5.1 audio on DVD discs, etc., that would also have good response on multi-channel SACD's and stereo CD's? My present system doesn't have bass management provisions for SACD multi-channel or provisions for varying the crossover points between the sub and the front, center, and rear speakers, and my speakers include the Magneplanar MG-3.6 and several other Maggies, several of which have limited bass response. - So, it seems to me that I need something that will provide some sort of bass management for playing the multi-channel SACDs. I don't think that using full-range speakers on all channels would be practical with the Maggies. - Although the response of the 3.6's is incredible IMO, they are six feet tall. One possible option may be the Rotel RSP-1098, in which crossover points of all the speakers can be individually adjusted. I recognize that this isn't bass management in the same sense as it is practiced in the Dolby 5.1 decoders, but at least it would protect my center and surround speakers. However, $3,000 is more than I want to pay. I also understand that Pioneer has at least two models in which bass management of SACD signals is possible while the signals are still in digital form. Recommended? For what it's worth, I have also tried the Outlaw ICBM for SACD bass management. - My impression was that it could provide impressive, dynamic surround sound, but it seemed to subtract something from the accuracy of the mains. - I didn't get the same clean Maggie sound that I get when playing CDs or stereo SACDs through my old (Carver) preamp. Thanks for any suggestions. Jim Cate |
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"Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro" wrote in message
... Steven Sullivan wrote: Jim Cate wrote: Can anyone discuss possible choices for a multi-channel preamp/processor, or receiver, capable of decoding Dolby 5.1 audio on DVD discs, etc., that would also have good response on multi-channel SACD's and stereo CD's? My present system doesn't have bass management provisions for SACD multi-channel Possibly the cheapest way to solve that would be to buy a recent SACD player. Most if not all have that. The question that pops into my mind is, how is bass management accomplished when playing an SACD? The choices would be a) in the analog realm like the Outlaw ICBM, b) conversion of the signal to PCM and digital separation, or c) direct separation from the SACD signal. I'm assuming here that bass management doesn't require use of the DD 5.1 tracks that may be included on the SACD. Can anyone throw additional light on this question? Norm Strong |
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On 15 Sep 2004 03:14:14 GMT, Jim Cate wrote:
Well, I suppose I should be impressed, or even intimidated, that the Sterephile author himself is chiming in. - Sorry, I'm not. No reason you should be. Kal, it seems to me that when you offer conclusions to the effect that there is "no reason to think that the ICBM is less transparent than additional A/D/A processing," you are making a judgment relating to interpretations of physics and electrical circuitry theory, as distinguished from offering a subjective opinion as to how one component sounds relative to another. (Your statement was that "there is no reason....", not, "in my opinion," or "to my knowledge," there is no reason....) For the record, what is your technical education? Do you have training from a technical institution, or a BS or Ph.D. in physics, EE, etc.? Please understand that I'm not at all questioning your qualifications to review audio components, and I'm not saying that you are wrong. I'm merely pointing out that you are posting conclusions that in effect constitute interpretations of principles of physics rather than subjective evaluations based on listening tests involving the components of interest. Had you said: I have a hunch that..., or I have a gut feeling that....., I would have no problem with your statement. Well, I did an undergrad major in Physics although I took my degree in another science. I can read specifications and have designed and built filters of many types. I've also built DACs. That said, credentials are not the issue here but experience. I have listened to a fairly large number of analog and digital devices and my statement is based on that. Both an additional A/D/A and the superimposition of an analog filter can be done fairly transparently today and they can also be done poorly. The ICBM does it so well that there's no reason to expect a mass-market A/V receiver will achieve greater transparency. There may be specific examples to the contrary, of course. Second, if in fact there was no basis for suspecting that there was a "veiling" of the sound, even if "slight," why did you bring it up in the first place? Alternatively, if there WAS "veiling" of the sound, do you have test results that confirm that it's only a "very slight" veiling no matter what speaker is entailed? E.g., the Maggies seem to be quite transparent and revealing of what's between them and the source. Some other speakers have similar characteristics. - Do your conclusions apply equally to all of them? A/B comparison in two channels via the Magnepans with the ICBM to bypass revealed only a slight increase in background noise with my ear to the Maggie tweeter. That could be due to the additional cabling, additional circuitry or a less than transparent transit through the ICBM. In the system as it was then, there was no discernable difference, again in 2 channels and bypass, from the listening position with music. Consequently, I allowed for the possibility that the use of the ICBM 'might' contribute some veiling but that it was inconsequential. With my present setup, I use the ICBM only for the rear and LFE channels. Measurements, of course, would be interesting. Kal |
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On 15 Sep 2004 22:54:09 GMT, "normanstrong"
wrote: I'm assuming here that bass management doesn't require use of the DD 5.1 tracks that may be included on the SACD. Can you list any SACDs with DD 5.1 tracks on them? Kal |
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"normanstrong" wrote in message
... "Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro" wrote in message ... Steven Sullivan wrote: Jim Cate wrote: Can anyone discuss possible choices for a multi-channel preamp/processor, or receiver, capable of decoding Dolby 5.1 audio on DVD discs, etc., that would also have good response on multi-channel SACD's and stereo CD's? My present system doesn't have bass management provisions for SACD multi-channel Possibly the cheapest way to solve that would be to buy a recent SACD player. Most if not all have that. The question that pops into my mind is, how is bass management accomplished when playing an SACD? The choices would be a) in the analog realm like the Outlaw ICBM, b) conversion of the signal to PCM and digital separation, or c) direct separation from the SACD signal. I'm assuming here that bass management doesn't require use of the DD 5.1 tracks that may be included on the SACD. Can anyone throw additional light on this question? My understanding is that the latest Sony SACD chips now becoming widely used incorporate bass management within the DSD domain. But as I am not an engineer I am only passing this along, not endorsing it as true. |
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normanstrong wrote:
"Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro" wrote in message ... Steven Sullivan wrote: Jim Cate wrote: Can anyone discuss possible choices for a multi-channel preamp/processor, or receiver, capable of decoding Dolby 5.1 audio on DVD discs, etc., that would also have good response on multi-channel SACD's and stereo CD's? My present system doesn't have bass management provisions for SACD multi-channel Possibly the cheapest way to solve that would be to buy a recent SACD player. Most if not all have that. The question that pops into my mind is, how is bass management accomplished when playing an SACD? The choices would be a) in the analog realm like the Outlaw ICBM, b) conversion of the signal to PCM and digital separation, or c) direct separation from the SACD signal. I'm assuming here that bass management doesn't require use of the DD 5.1 tracks that may be included on the SACD. All bass management (and time alignment, if present), afaik, is performed after a PCM conversion. That's definitely the case in the high-end Denons, as indicated by their signal path schematics, and from what I read on various AV forums, it's the case generally. THe coversion is done at high sample rates and bitdepths, and i'm skeptical that it causes any audible difference if done properly. That doesn't stop purists from fretting endlessly over the matter, on said forums. And SACD discs rarely if ever include Dolby Digital tracks, AFAIK...that's the realm of DVD-Audio discs. None of my SACDs have DD tracks, but many have CD tracks. -- -S Your a boring little troll. How does it feel? Go blow your bad breath elsewhere. |
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Kalman Rubinson wrote:
On 15 Sep 2004 03:14:14 GMT, Jim Cate wrote: Well, I suppose I should be impressed, or even intimidated, that the Sterephile author himself is chiming in. - Sorry, I'm not. No reason you should be. Well, I did an undergrad major in Physics although I took my degree in another science. I can read specifications and have designed and built filters of many types. I've also built DACs. That said, credentials are not the issue here but experience. I have listened to a fairly large number of analog and digital devices and my statement is based on that. Both an additional A/D/A and the superimposition of an analog filter can be done fairly transparently today and they can also be done poorly. The ICBM does it so well that there's no reason to expect a mass-market A/V receiver will achieve greater transparency. There may be specific examples to the contrary, of course. I still maintain that an understanding of the basic principles of physics and circuitry are often important for evaluating most audio equipment, although I agree that it may not have been critical in this instance. IMO, if reviewers of cables, amplifiers, etc., were required to have such a background, it would help counter some of the confusion and rip-offs generated by the technical gobbledygook put out by some manufacturers. Seems to me that Stereophile has an ethical duty to the audio public to expose such quasi-technical jargon for what it is. (Does it, or does it have to mollify its reviews so as not to offend the manufacturers?) In any event, as a Stereo subscriber, I'm gratified to learn that you have such a technical background. - What's your ball-park estimate regarding the percentage of other reviewers published in Stereophile who have such technical training? Regarding the Outlaw ICBM, your opinion seems to be that if I have a problem, it's with my receiver. Since I already have the Outlaw unit and six channels of amplification, can you (or anyone else) suggest a multi-channel preamp/decoder for this application? My preference would be to keep the price below around $1,500, since I don't need some of the bells and whistles of the top end units. As an example, what about the Rotel RSD-1068 (which does apparently include adjustable crossover frequencies). Second, if in fact there was no basis for suspecting that there was a "veiling" of the sound, even if "slight," why did you bring it up in the first place? Alternatively, if there WAS "veiling" of the sound, do you have test results that confirm that it's only a "very slight" veiling no matter what speaker is entailed? E.g., the Maggies seem to be quite transparent and revealing of what's between them and the source. Some other speakers have similar characteristics. - Do your conclusions apply equally to all of them? A/B comparison in two channels via the Magnepans with the ICBM to bypass revealed only a slight increase in background noise with my ear to the Maggie tweeter. That could be due to the additional cabling, additional circuitry or a less than transparent transit through the ICBM. In the system as it was then, there was no discernable difference, again in 2 channels and bypass, from the listening position with music. Consequently, I allowed for the possibility that the use of the ICBM 'might' contribute some veiling but that it was inconsequential. With my present setup, I use the ICBM only for the rear and LFE channels.\ How did you connect the ICBM for this setup? Sounds like you are not routing the bass from the surrounds and center to your mains, but instead are driving your mains (Maggies?) directly through another preamp. - Is that correct? Jim Measurements, of course, would be interesting. Kal |
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On 16 Sep 2004 23:07:17 GMT, Steven Sullivan wrote:
And SACD discs rarely if ever include Dolby Digital tracks, AFAIK...that's the realm of DVD-Audio discs. None of my SACDs have DD tracks, but many have CD tracks. AFAIK, no SACDs have DD tracks. Their plan is to provide backward compatibility with CD players, not DVD players. Kal |
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On 16 Sep 2004 23:10:13 GMT, Jim Cate wrote:
Regarding the Outlaw ICBM, your opinion seems to be that if I have a problem, it's with my receiver. Since I already have the Outlaw unit and six channels of amplification, can you (or anyone else) suggest a multi-channel preamp/decoder for this application? My preference would be to keep the price below around $1,500, since I don't need some of the bells and whistles of the top end units. As an example, what about the Rotel RSD-1068 (which does apparently include adjustable crossover frequencies). I am afraid that I have no direct experience with any MCH pre/pros. I have restricted my view, so far, to all analog MCH preamps, relying on the processing in the players for DD/DTS/DPL. How did you connect the ICBM for this setup? Sounds like you are not routing the bass from the surrounds and center to your mains, but instead are driving your mains (Maggies?) directly through another preamp. - Is that correct? At present, I have the Maggie MGMC1s in the rear channels and full-range Paradigms in the front 3 channels. So, I route the preamp L/C/R outputs directly to the power amp and the LS/RS/LFE through the ICBM. The advantage may have as much to do with the elimination of an additional interconnect and intervening junctions as any 'veiling' in the ICBM but this arrangement is just a bit cleaner. Kal |
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Kalman Rubinson wrote in message ...
On 16 Sep 2004 23:10:13 GMT, Jim Cate wrote: Regarding the Outlaw ICBM, your opinion seems to be that if I have a problem, it's with my receiver. Since I already have the Outlaw unit and six channels of amplification, can you (or anyone else) suggest a multi-channel preamp/decoder for this application? My preference would be to keep the price below around $1,500, since I don't need some of the bells and whistles of the top end units. As an example, what about the Rotel RSD-1068 (which does apparently include adjustable crossover frequencies). I am afraid that I have no direct experience with any MCH pre/pros. I have restricted my view, so far, to all analog MCH preamps, relying on the processing in the players for DD/DTS/DPL. This raises an issue I have sought clarification on. Someone was trying to sell me on the merits of Yamaha's new receiver, the RX-Z9, that he touts as a state of the art processor. I have never considered a multi-channel DSP processor because I thought (perhaps wrongly) that the multi-channelplayer that I purchased would handle every processing duty I would need. It seems that such a processor coupled with these decks would result in a lot of redundant or overlapping capabilities? But a lot of audiophiles seemingly are putting the two together. Question: What does a multi-channel DSP processor do for multi-channel SACD or DVD-A play back (at this point movies playing will not be part of my system)that, for example, a Esoteric DV50S, Sony SCDXA9000ES, Mccormack udp-1, etc., coupled with a basic multi-channel line stage could not do on its own? Robert C. Lang |
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"Robert C. Lang" wrote in message
... Kalman Rubinson wrote in message ... On 16 Sep 2004 23:10:13 GMT, Jim Cate wrote: Regarding the Outlaw ICBM, your opinion seems to be that if I have a problem, it's with my receiver. Since I already have the Outlaw unit and six channels of amplification, can you (or anyone else) suggest a multi-channel preamp/decoder for this application? My preference would be to keep the price below around $1,500, since I don't need some of the bells and whistles of the top end units. As an example, what about the Rotel RSD-1068 (which does apparently include adjustable crossover frequencies). I am afraid that I have no direct experience with any MCH pre/pros. I have restricted my view, so far, to all analog MCH preamps, relying on the processing in the players for DD/DTS/DPL. This raises an issue I have sought clarification on. Someone was trying to sell me on the merits of Yamaha's new receiver, the RX-Z9, that he touts as a state of the art processor. I have never considered a multi-channel DSP processor because I thought (perhaps wrongly) that the multi-channelplayer that I purchased would handle every processing duty I would need. It seems that such a processor coupled with these decks would result in a lot of redundant or overlapping capabilities? But a lot of audiophiles seemingly are putting the two together. Question: What does a multi-channel DSP processor do for multi-channel SACD or DVD-A play back (at this point movies playing will not be part of my system)that, for example, a Esoteric DV50S, Sony SCDXA9000ES, Mccormack udp-1, etc., coupled with a basic multi-channel line stage could not do on its own? For DVD-A and SACD, absolutely nothing. They must use multichannel analog inputs to convey true high rez info, otherwise that high-rez is automatically downconverted to 44 or 48khz (in a few cases, 96khz). For Movies, the receivers handle a lot more surround options than most players...the most significant is older Dolby Surround which can be used to decode older movies and SQ records. A very few have built in surround modes aimed at extracting a pseudo-surround from stereo and mono records. Better off staying with good preamps and amplifiers, and letting the players do the decoding, IMO. |
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Harry Lavo wrote:
"Robert C. Lang" wrote in message ... Kalman Rubinson wrote in message ... On 16 Sep 2004 23:10:13 GMT, Jim Cate wrote: Regarding the Outlaw ICBM, your opinion seems to be that if I have a problem, it's with my receiver. Since I already have the Outlaw unit and six channels of amplification, can you (or anyone else) suggest a multi-channel preamp/decoder for this application? My preference would be to keep the price below around $1,500, since I don't need some of the bells and whistles of the top end units. As an example, what about the Rotel RSD-1068 (which does apparently include adjustable crossover frequencies). I am afraid that I have no direct experience with any MCH pre/pros. I have restricted my view, so far, to all analog MCH preamps, relying on the processing in the players for DD/DTS/DPL. This raises an issue I have sought clarification on. Someone was trying to sell me on the merits of Yamaha's new receiver, the RX-Z9, that he touts as a state of the art processor. I have never considered a multi-channel DSP processor because I thought (perhaps wrongly) that the multi-channelplayer that I purchased would handle every processing duty I would need. It seems that such a processor coupled with these decks would result in a lot of redundant or overlapping capabilities? But a lot of audiophiles seemingly are putting the two together. Question: What does a multi-channel DSP processor do for multi-channel SACD or DVD-A play back (at this point movies playing will not be part of my system)that, for example, a Esoteric DV50S, Sony SCDXA9000ES, Mccormack udp-1, etc., coupled with a basic multi-channel line stage could not do on its own? For DVD-A and SACD, absolutely nothing. They must use multichannel analog inputs to convey true high rez info, otherwise that high-rez is automatically downconverted to 44 or 48khz (in a few cases, 96khz). For Movies, the receivers handle a lot more surround options than most players...the most significant is older Dolby Surround which can be used to decode older movies and SQ records. A very few have built in surround modes aimed at extracting a pseudo-surround from stereo and mono records. Better off staying with good preamps and amplifiers, and letting the players do the decoding, IMO. I may not be on the right track, but it seems to me that, as you suggest, if the SACD player has decoding capabilities, its analog outputs could be fed directly to the power amps, providing that the player has some sort of volume adjustments. - Am I missing something? This setup would eliminate the receiver, the Outlaw ICBM, and the associated interconnects from the circuit path between the player and the power amp, and perhaps improve the sound. The downside is that I would then have to provide another approach (switch box?) for switching between the SACD player (when playing SACD surround) and the Receiver (when playing Dolby DVDs, etc.). I'll do some experimenting on this approach using the internal channel volume adjustments on my Sony multi-channel player. Jim |
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"Jim Cate" wrote in message
... Harry Lavo wrote: "Robert C. Lang" wrote in message ... Kalman Rubinson wrote in message ... On 16 Sep 2004 23:10:13 GMT, Jim Cate wrote: Regarding the Outlaw ICBM, your opinion seems to be that if I have a problem, it's with my receiver. Since I already have the Outlaw unit and six channels of amplification, can you (or anyone else) suggest a multi-channel preamp/decoder for this application? My preference would be to keep the price below around $1,500, since I don't need some of the bells and whistles of the top end units. As an example, what about the Rotel RSD-1068 (which does apparently include adjustable crossover frequencies). I am afraid that I have no direct experience with any MCH pre/pros. I have restricted my view, so far, to all analog MCH preamps, relying on the processing in the players for DD/DTS/DPL. This raises an issue I have sought clarification on. Someone was trying to sell me on the merits of Yamaha's new receiver, the RX-Z9, that he touts as a state of the art processor. I have never considered a multi-channel DSP processor because I thought (perhaps wrongly) that the multi-channelplayer that I purchased would handle every processing duty I would need. It seems that such a processor coupled with these decks would result in a lot of redundant or overlapping capabilities? But a lot of audiophiles seemingly are putting the two together. Question: What does a multi-channel DSP processor do for multi-channel SACD or DVD-A play back (at this point movies playing will not be part of my system)that, for example, a Esoteric DV50S, Sony SCDXA9000ES, Mccormack udp-1, etc., coupled with a basic multi-channel line stage could not do on its own? For DVD-A and SACD, absolutely nothing. They must use multichannel analog inputs to convey true high rez info, otherwise that high-rez is automatically downconverted to 44 or 48khz (in a few cases, 96khz). For Movies, the receivers handle a lot more surround options than most players...the most significant is older Dolby Surround which can be used to decode older movies and SQ records. A very few have built in surround modes aimed at extracting a pseudo-surround from stereo and mono records. Better off staying with good preamps and amplifiers, and letting the players do the decoding, IMO. I may not be on the right track, but it seems to me that, as you suggest, if the SACD player has decoding capabilities, its analog outputs could be fed directly to the power amps, providing that the player has some sort of volume adjustments. - Am I missing something? This setup would eliminate the receiver, the Outlaw ICBM, and the associated interconnects from the circuit path between the player and the power amp, and perhaps improve the sound. The downside is that I would then have to provide another approach (switch box?) for switching between the SACD player (when playing SACD surround) and the Receiver (when playing Dolby DVDs, etc.). I'll do some experimenting on this approach using the internal channel volume adjustments on my Sony multi-channel player. The only volume controls on most SACD players are internal speaker trim controls intended for balancing the setup ....there is no master volume control. |
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On 19 Sep 2004 02:08:17 GMT, Jim Cate wrote:
I may not be on the right track, but it seems to me that, as you suggest, if the SACD player has decoding capabilities, its analog outputs could be fed directly to the power amps, providing that the player has some sort of volume adjustments. - Am I missing something? That assumes you can find a universal player with a volume control. This setup would eliminate the receiver, the Outlaw ICBM, and the associated interconnects from the circuit path between the player and the power amp, and perhaps improve the sound. That assumes you can find a universal player with adequate bass management. The downside is that I would then have to provide another approach (switch box?) for switching between the SACD player (when playing SACD surround) and the Receiver (when playing Dolby DVDs, etc.). I'll do some experimenting on this approach using the internal channel volume adjustments on my Sony multi-channel player. Let us know. Kal |
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Harry Lavo wrote:
"Robert C. Lang" wrote in message ... This raises an issue I have sought clarification on. Someone was trying to sell me on the merits of Yamaha's new receiver, the RX-Z9, that he touts as a state of the art processor. At the moment, it is the only Yamaha model with a I-link connection. Yamaha DSP-Z9 (european model) http://yamaha-hifi.de/index.php?lang=e&idcat1=1 http://www.yamaha-audio.co.uk/homeci...ifiers/dsp-z9/ http://www.yamaha-audio.co.uk/pdfs/manuals/DSPZ9.pdf I suspect (hope) that the future Yamahas RX-V1500 and RX-V2500 (or whatever the replacements of the current RX-V1400 and RX-V2400 will be called) might also have I-link (firewire), but that is just a guess. The Pioneers VSA-AX10Ai-S or VSX-AX5i-S also have I-link and the VSX-AX5i-S is considerably cheaper (1500 euros) than the Yamaha RX-Z9 (~5000 euros). I have never considered a multi-channel DSP processor because I thought (perhaps wrongly) that the multi-channelplayer that I purchased would handle every processing duty I would need. The player usually has less features. I think all the modes that create surround channels from a 2 channel input (even something so trivial as "6-channel stereo") are absent. Also, the newer modes which create 7 or 9 (!) channels from the 5 channels in a multichannel record don't exist in players either. It seems that such a processor coupled with these decks would result in a lot of redundant or overlapping capabilities? Yes (bass management, distance compensation, for instance), but - those capabilities are more complete on the receiver than on the player; - probably the receiver is no more expensive than a 5 or more channels power amplifier with volume control (if someone makes one). If you already have the amplifier, this doesn't mean much to you. But a lot of audiophiles seemingly are putting the two together. Question: What does a multi-channel DSP processor do for multi-channel SACD or DVD-A play back (at this point movies playing will not be part of my system)that, for example, a Esoteric DV50S, Sony SCDXA9000ES, Mccormack udp-1, etc., coupled with a basic multi-channel line stage could not do on its own? For DVD-A and SACD, absolutely nothing. They must use multichannel analog inputs to convey true high rez info, otherwise that high-rez is automatically downconverted to 44 or 48khz (in a few cases, 96khz). I _think_ that doesn't apply to I-link, only to optical/coaxial digital, when mosts discs forbid the player from outputing anything digital, anyway. With I-link the player sends digital to the receiver at whatever rate is present on the disc. -- http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/ ..pt is Portugal| `Whom the gods love die young'-Menander (342-292 BC) Europe | Villeneuve 50-82, Toivonen 56-86, Senna 60-94 |
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