Hi,


I'm looking for a good quality full range speaker. I'd like to build a
cabinet with one such speaker in it. I don't want to use additional
speakers. I would prefer to use either a closed cabinet or a vented one. The
closed one is my first choice, as I want the most precision out of sound. I
want to also keep the design simple, so it is easy to build.

I know full range speakers are a compromise, but I'm ready to try one. I
need one for a special purpose use and need mostly flat frequency response
from around 80Hz to 13kHz. That would be optimal. Of course the lower the
freq response starts, the better for me.

Can you recommend any suitable speaker? Size doesn't matter. I'm firstly
interested in that flat freq response, at least in the area of 80Hz-13kHz.
Secondly, the speaker should be of low input wattage (5-20W) if possible as
I'm using a small tube amp to drive it, so I can't supply much power. That
isn't critical though, as I can use a bigger amp if needed.

Any ideas or recommendations?


Thanks,

-at

The max price I can afford for one speaker is about 300 euros/USD.

at wrote:

Hi,


I'm looking for a good quality full range speaker. I'd like to build a
cabinet with one such speaker in it. I don't want to use additional
speakers. I would prefer to use either a closed cabinet or a vented one. The
closed one is my first choice, as I want the most precision out of sound. I
want to also keep the design simple, so it is easy to build.

Building a speaker is different than buying a good one - it's very VERY
hard to get more than adequate sound unless you really know what you
are doing. As in - computer programs, lots of math, and a good testing
setup. You're ten times better off buying a kit if you want to go this
route - most of them are pretty good since other people have done the
homework for you - and leave the fine-tweaking to you.

I know full range speakers are a compromise, but I'm ready to try one. I
need one for a special purpose use and need mostly flat frequency response
from around 80Hz to 13kHz. That would be optimal. Of course the lower the
freq response starts, the better for me.

It's just not going to happen without some MAJOR compromises. OTOH,
a simple 1 inch tweeter and 6-8 inch woofer might work. You'll
need at cabinet at least the size of a typical 15 inch monitor as a
minimum or else you'll get almost no bass response.

I know of only a few full-range designs that work very well. Basically
you have a 15Khz top-end and maybe 80hz, but that's not "flat".
Building one yourself - that's just asking for a dissapointment.

at a écrit :

Hi,


I'm looking for a good quality full range speaker. I'd like to build a
cabinet with one such speaker in it. I don't want to use additional
speakers. I would prefer to use either a closed cabinet or a vented one. The
closed one is my first choice, as I want the most precision out of sound. I
want to also keep the design simple, so it is easy to build.

I know full range speakers are a compromise, but I'm ready to try one. I
need one for a special purpose use and need mostly flat frequency response
from around 80Hz to 13kHz. That would be optimal. Of course the lower the
freq response starts, the better for me.

Can you recommend any suitable speaker? Size doesn't matter. I'm firstly
interested in that flat freq response, at least in the area of 80Hz-13kHz.
Secondly, the speaker should be of low input wattage (5-20W) if possible as
I'm using a small tube amp to drive it, so I can't supply much power. That
isn't critical though, as I can use a bigger amp if needed.

Any ideas or recommendations?

You should have a look to this manufacturer site :
http://www.fostexinternational.com/d...r_comp_1.shtml
Their FE range is very well-known for its good compromise price/performance.
the US distributor :
http://www.madisound.com/fostex.html

And perhaps you should put your question again on this forum :
http://fullrangedriver.com/tiki-page...FullrangeIntro

Have fun and good luck !

"at" wrote in message


Full range speaker, can you recommend some?
Can you recommend any suitable speaker?

Not if sound quality matters to you.

Size doesn't matter.

But size does matter.

If you have a speaker that responds to 13 KHz and has reasonable disperson,
there are definite limits on its size. The laws of physics say that its not
going to be smooth and disperse treble very well, if its much bigger than an
inch or so.

If you have a speaker that responds to 80 Hz and has reasonable power
handling abilities, there are again definite limits on its size. The laws of
physics say that its not going to go that deep and produce a reasonable
amount of clean, if its much smaller than about 5 inches or so.

I'm firstly interested in that flat freq response, at least in the area
of 80Hz-13kHz.

Way to wide of a frequency range for just one driver.

Secondly, the speaker should be of low input wattage (5-20W) if possible
as I'm using a small tube amp to drive it, so I
can't supply much power.

What you are really saying is that you want a speaker to be pretty
efficient. This suggests a horn-loaded design. However, you still have
frequency response limits. It turns out that the high frequency limit and
the low-frequency SPL limit of a compression driver are set by the distance
between the diaphragm and the phasing plug. Make this distance larger to
get more LF performance, and your high end goes away. Make he diaphragm
larger and you have problems with diaphragm break-up, not to mention costs.

That isn't critical though, as I can use a
bigger amp if needed.

Any ideas or recommendations?

Rethink your application. There's a number of reasons why virtually every
speaker system with pretentions to quality is at least 2-way.

Joseph Oberlander a écrit :

I know of only a few full-range designs that work very well. Basically
you have a 15Khz top-end and maybe 80hz, but that's not "flat".
Building one yourself - that's just asking for a dissapointment.

Eh, Joe what happened to you ? Why are you so negative ?
Full range speakers are easier to built than 2, 3 ways speakers since
you don't have to tweak a crossover. Moreover a bunch of different
optimised designs are available on the internet.

Arny Krueger a écrit :

"at" wrote in message



Full range speaker, can you recommend some?
Can you recommend any suitable speaker?


Not if sound quality matters to you.


Size doesn't matter.


But size does matter.

If you have a speaker that responds to 13 KHz and has reasonable disperson,
there are definite limits on its size. The laws of physics say that its not
going to be smooth and disperse treble very well, if its much bigger than an
inch or so.

If you have a speaker that responds to 80 Hz and has reasonable power
handling abilities, there are again definite limits on its size. The laws of
physics say that its not going to go that deep and produce a reasonable
amount of clean, if its much smaller than about 5 inches or so.


I'm firstly interested in that flat freq response, at least in the area

of 80Hz-13kHz.

Way to wide of a frequency range for just one driver.


Secondly, the speaker should be of low input wattage (5-20W) if possible

as I'm using a small tube amp to drive it, so I

can't supply much power.


What you are really saying is that you want a speaker to be pretty
efficient. This suggests a horn-loaded design. However, you still have
frequency response limits. It turns out that the high frequency limit and
the low-frequency SPL limit of a compression driver are set by the distance
between the diaphragm and the phasing plug. Make this distance larger to
get more LF performance, and your high end goes away. Make he diaphragm
larger and you have problems with diaphragm break-up, not to mention costs.


That isn't critical though, as I can use a
bigger amp if needed.

Any ideas or recommendations?


Rethink your application. There's a number of reasons why virtually every
speaker system with pretentions to quality is at least 2-way.


Don't you like the frequency response of the one I have chosen ?
http://www.madisound.com/ff225k.pdf
I know that I will have to help him with a tweeter over 10 Khz but this
will be done with nearly no electronic, just *a* cap !

Manufacturing DIY full-range speakers could be an interesting job of
luthier.:-)

"Lionel" wrote in message

Arny Krueger a écrit :

"at" wrote in message


Any ideas or recommendations?


Rethink your application. There's a number of reasons why virtually
every speaker system with pretentions to quality is at least 2-way.

Don't you like the frequency response of the one I have chosen ?
http://www.madisound.com/ff225k.pdf

Two pretty serious problems:

(1) Xmax of 0.3 mm, when it should be 3-6 mm if an 8" driver would have
serious bass.

(2) Note that the off-axis treble response falls off above 1500 Hz.

I know that I will have to help him with a tweeter over 10 KHz but
this will be done with nearly no electronic, just *a* cap !

Basically, this looks to me like a cheap driver with fairly nicely
controlled cone breakup. The cheap part comes in because they obviously made
the magnetic gap very short to goose the magnetic field density up, in order
to get relatively high efficiency.

Manufacturing DIY full-range speakers could be an interesting job of
luthier.:-)

Those nasty laws of physics run against this project.

Arny Krueger a écrit :

"Lionel" wrote in message


Arny Krueger a écrit :


"at" wrote in message



Any ideas or recommendations?


Rethink your application. There's a number of reasons why virtually
every speaker system with pretentions to quality is at least 2-way.


Don't you like the frequency response of the one I have chosen ?
http://www.madisound.com/ff225k.pdf


Two pretty serious problems:

(1) Xmax of 0.3 mm, when it should be 3-6 mm if an 8" driver would have
serious bass.

Perhaps a begining of answer to this problem :
"Just another word on xmax. It is specified by the simple relationship
of the voice coil winding length to the thickness of the top plate (or
pole disc in the enclosed neodymium designs). So, for example, if the
metal that sets the gap length is 6 mm in thickness and the voice coil
winding is 7 mm long, then X-max is .5 mm before the amount of voice
coil in the gap decreases.

That is all this specification means. Drivers can excurse farther than
X-max. The distortion just begins to rise when they do. Excursing just
slightly beyond X-max produces a very small increase in distortion.
Hitting the excursion limit of the driver produces much more distortion.

If you eliminate a driver just on X-max alone (and you are not planning
on using it as a subwoofer), then you have made a mistake. Please do not
over generalize. In the realm of a wide-range driver, there are so many
other things that matter so much more to the sound of the driver than
its X-max. If I was building a high SPL subwoofer, then I would be
concerned with X-max.

As I have stated in another thread, in full range or wide range drivers,
large X-max is going to limit top end. You cannot have both. Large X-max
requires lots of voice coil out of the gap. This adds mass and increases
coil inductance. Both decrease the top end of the driver."

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...935&highlight=

(2) Note that the off-axis treble response falls off above 1500 Hz.

Is it not a common behaviour ?

I know that I will have to help him with a tweeter over 10 KHz but
this will be done with nearly no electronic, just *a* cap !


Basically, this looks to me like a cheap driver with fairly nicely
controlled cone breakup. The cheap part comes in because they obviously made
the magnetic gap very short to goose the magnetic field density up, in order
to get relatively high efficiency.


Manufacturing DIY full-range speakers could be an interesting job of

luthier.:-)

Those nasty laws of physics run against this project.

Only faith counts ! ;-)

Lionel wrote:
Joseph Oberlander a écrit :

I know of only a few full-range designs that work very well. Basically
you have a 15Khz top-end and maybe 80hz, but that's not "flat".
Building one yourself - that's just asking for a dissapointment.


Eh, Joe what happened to you ? Why are you so negative ?
Full range speakers are easier to built than 2, 3 ways speakers since
you don't have to tweak a crossover. Moreover a bunch of different
optimised designs are available on the internet.

I know enough about speakers to realize that one speaker can't
do what two or more can. I'm actually the other extreme - I think
that the best sound comes from a series of 3-5 speakers all
operating in their optimal ranges.(ugly crossover, though)

NoRH tried it with minimal success. Magnepan is trying it with
their MMG-W(one single panel) - of these attempts, the Magnepan
is the best, IMO, but it has a 100hz - 15Khz range. That's
as good as one speaker will get you with today's technology.

But a two-way speaker crossover is almost idiot-proof as you
really are only matching two speakers together, and most
have a good deal of overlap - it's not hard to get flat
response in the midrange these days. Plug in the crossover
from the kit, tweak it if you want with a few better components,
and enjoy. Now, three or four-way crossovers are a whole
other story. That's the kind of difficulty you're imagining.

The same Magnepan speaker, for instance, with two panels and
a bit larger size(few inches) is their MMG. 50hz-20Khz.
Not much larger, but a full octave better bass and cleaner
top-end.

"Lionel" wrote in message

Arny Krueger a écrit :

"Lionel" wrote in message


Arny Krueger a écrit :


"at" wrote in message



Any ideas or recommendations?


Rethink your application. There's a number of reasons why virtually
every speaker system with pretentions to quality is at least 2-way.


Don't you like the frequency response of the one I have chosen ?
http://www.madisound.com/ff225k.pdf


Two pretty serious problems:

(1) Xmax of 0.3 mm, when it should be 3-6 mm if an 8" driver would
have serious bass.

Perhaps a begining of answer to this problem :

"Just another word on xmax. It is specified by the simple relationship
of the voice coil winding length to the thickness of the top plate (or
pole disc in the enclosed neodymium designs). So, for example, if the
metal that sets the gap length is 6 mm in thickness and the voice coil
winding is 7 mm long, then X-max is .5 mm before the amount of voice
coil in the gap decreases.

That is all this specification means. Drivers can excurse farther than
X-max. The distortion just begins to rise when they do. Excursing just
slightly beyond X-max produces a very small increase in distortion.
Hitting the excursion limit of the driver produces much more
distortion.

If you eliminate a driver just on X-max alone (and you are not
planning on using it as a subwoofer), then you have made a mistake.

I didn't make that mistake, did I? I also criticized the speaker for its
lack of high frequency disperson, right?

Also, consider what sort of Xmax we are talking about. 0.3 mm is very small
Xmax for an 8" driver that we expect to reproduce 80 Hz cleanly. If Xmax
were 2 or 3 mm, I would be more likely to excuse it. Of course, I'd like to
see Xmax of 10mm or more for a subwoofer.

Please do not over generalize. In the realm of a wide-range driver,
there are so many other things that matter so much more to the sound
of the driver than its X-max. If I was building a high SPL subwoofer,
then I would be concerned with X-max.

Frankly, you have to watch Xmax even with midrange speakers.

As I have stated in another thread, in full range or wide range
drivers, large X-max is going to limit top end.

Usually issues like cone breakup and disperson get you first.

You cannot have both.
Large X-max requires lots of voice coil out of the gap. This adds
mass and increases coil inductance. Both decrease the top end of the
driver."

In fact, drivers with Xmax in the 6 mm range can respond pretty well up to
about 4 KHz. Remember, I cricitised the proposed driver starting at 1.5 Khz
based on treble dispersion.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...935&highlight=


Well, this guy takes a completely different tack. He claims that the Xmax is
really more like 3 mm. However, he's really talking about Xsus, not Xmax so
he's not really shedding any new light.

(2) Note that the off-axis treble response falls off above 1500 Hz.

Is it not a common behaviour ?

It's common enough that people use tweeters to deal with this problem! ;-)

I know that I will have to help him with a tweeter over 10 KHz but
this will be done with nearly no electronic, just *a* cap !

Often a 2 KHz crossover can be done with just a cap. This woofer is smooth
enough in the breakup region that you don't have to get agressive about
rolling off its high end. The other thing to watch out for is tweeters that
actually get a peak in their low end response when driven with a simple
capacitor.

Joseph Oberlander said:

The same Magnepan speaker, for instance, with two panels and
a bit larger size(few inches) is their MMG. 50hz-20Khz.
Not much larger, but a full octave better bass and cleaner
top-end.

Plus it has a series-filter.
Very amplifier- and phase friendly.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Arny Krueger a écrit :

"Lionel" wrote in message


Arny Krueger a écrit :


"Lionel" wrote in message



Arny Krueger a écrit :



"at" wrote in message



Any ideas or recommendations?


Rethink your application. There's a number of reasons why virtually
every speaker system with pretentions to quality is at least 2-way.


Don't you like the frequency response of the one I have chosen ?
http://www.madisound.com/ff225k.pdf


Two pretty serious problems:

(1) Xmax of 0.3 mm, when it should be 3-6 mm if an 8" driver would
have serious bass.

Perhaps a begining of answer to this problem :


"Just another word on xmax. It is specified by the simple relationship
of the voice coil winding length to the thickness of the top plate (or
pole disc in the enclosed neodymium designs). So, for example, if the
metal that sets the gap length is 6 mm in thickness and the voice coil
winding is 7 mm long, then X-max is .5 mm before the amount of voice
coil in the gap decreases.


That is all this specification means. Drivers can excurse farther than
X-max. The distortion just begins to rise when they do. Excursing just
slightly beyond X-max produces a very small increase in distortion.
Hitting the excursion limit of the driver produces much more
distortion.


If you eliminate a driver just on X-max alone (and you are not
planning on using it as a subwoofer), then you have made a mistake.


I didn't make that mistake, did I? I also criticized the speaker for its
lack of high frequency disperson, right?

Also, consider what sort of Xmax we are talking about. 0.3 mm is very small
Xmax for an 8" driver that we expect to reproduce 80 Hz cleanly. If Xmax
were 2 or 3 mm, I would be more likely to excuse it. Of course, I'd like to
see Xmax of 10mm or more for a subwoofer.

My problem Arnold is that I don't really like the sound of "modern"
speakers because I like quick and precise answer from the bass an not
this diffuse and not well defined loud bass that we can hear from a lot
of speakers and moreover from a lot of subwoofer.
In fact I just need to reproduce with the maximum fidelity the sound of
a double-bass.
I understand that my point of view is perhaps not really academic, but I
should also comply with the fact that there is no banker in Chapuis'
family. ;-)


Please do not over generalize. In the realm of a wide-range driver,
there are so many other things that matter so much more to the sound
of the driver than its X-max. If I was building a high SPL subwoofer,
then I would be concerned with X-max.


Frankly, you have to watch Xmax even with midrange speakers.


As I have stated in another thread, in full range or wide range
drivers, large X-max is going to limit top end.


Usually issues like cone breakup and disperson get you first.


You cannot have both.
Large X-max requires lots of voice coil out of the gap. This adds
mass and increases coil inductance. Both decrease the top end of the
driver."


In fact, drivers with Xmax in the 6 mm range can respond pretty well up to
about 4 KHz. Remember, I cricitised the proposed driver starting at 1.5 Khz
based on treble dispersion.


http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...935&highlight=



Well, this guy takes a completely different tack. He claims that the Xmax is
really more like 3 mm. However, he's really talking about Xsus, not Xmax so
he's not really shedding any new light.


(2) Note that the off-axis treble response falls off above 1500 Hz.


Is it not a common behaviour ?


It's common enough that people use tweeters to deal with this problem! ;-)

Ooops !

I know that I will have to help him with a tweeter over 10 KHz but
this will be done with nearly no electronic, just *a* cap !


Often a 2 KHz crossover can be done with just a cap. This woofer is smooth
enough in the breakup region that you don't have to get agressive about
rolling off its high end. The other thing to watch out for is tweeters that
actually get a peak in their low end response when driven with a simple
capacitor.

I have learnt about this issue. I was thinking at a transition with a
simple 0.47 µF cap according to Fostex recommendations (perhaps a Jensen
one in order to give a little bit of blue blood to my speakers) ).
I will built these speakers like that because I like the horn design and
that it will put me serious problem of construction skill ;-).

Thank you anyway for these interesting technical comments. I hope that
when the the speakers will be finished I will be able to make objective
critics. I guess that at this moment your today comments will be
usefull. Now I am too much engaged, I already dreams of them. :-)

"Lionel" wrote in message

Arny Krueger a écrit :

Also, consider what sort of Xmax we are talking about. 0.3 mm is
very small Xmax for an 8" driver that we expect to reproduce 80 Hz
cleanly. If Xmax were 2 or 3 mm, I would be more likely to excuse
it. Of course, I'd like to see Xmax of 10mm or more for a subwoofer.

My problem Arnold is that I don't really like the sound of "modern"
speakers because I like quick and precise answer from the bass an not
this diffuse and not well defined loud bass that we can hear from a
lot of speakers and moreover from a lot of subwoofer.

Does this mean that you like your midrange and treble intermodulated with
bass and midbass?

In fact I just need to reproduce with the maximum fidelity the sound
of a double-bass.

Do you like your flutes intermodulated with the sound of a double-bass?

I understand that my point of view is perhaps not really academic,
but I should also comply with the fact that there is no banker in
Chapuis' family. ;-)

http://www.madisound.com/fostex.pdf

At 94.35 each, its not exactly a cheapie.

Often a 2 KHz crossover can be done with just a cap. This woofer is
smooth enough in the breakup region that you don't have to get
agressive about rolling off its high end. The other thing to watch
out for is tweeters that actually get a peak in their low end
response when driven with a simple capacitor.

I have learnt about this issue. I was thinking at a transition with a
simple 0.47 µF cap according to Fostex recommendations (perhaps a
Jensen one in order to give a little bit of blue blood to my
speakers) ). I will built these speakers like that because I like
the horn design and that it will put me serious problem of
construction skill ;-).

You didn't say what the transition was to, did you?

Thank you anyway for these interesting technical comments. I hope that
when the the speakers will be finished I will be able to make
objective critics. I guess that at this moment your today comments
will be usefull. Now I am too much engaged, I already dreams of them.

The last speakers I built used an approx 6.5 inch woofer and a ring
supertweeter. I think the two drivers otgether were under $100. The 6.5 inch
woofer, while not a subwoofer, can move about 10 times as much air without
excess distoriton, as the FF225K.

Joseph Oberlander a écrit :



Lionel wrote:

Joseph Oberlander a écrit :

I know of only a few full-range designs that work very well. Basically
you have a 15Khz top-end and maybe 80hz, but that's not "flat".
Building one yourself - that's just asking for a dissapointment.



Eh, Joe what happened to you ? Why are you so negative ?
Full range speakers are easier to built than 2, 3 ways speakers since
you don't have to tweak a crossover. Moreover a bunch of different
optimised designs are available on the internet.


I know enough about speakers to realize that one speaker can't
do what two or more can. I'm actually the other extreme - I think
that the best sound comes from a series of 3-5 speakers all
operating in their optimal ranges.(ugly crossover, though)

NoRH tried it with minimal success. Magnepan is trying it with
their MMG-W(one single panel) - of these attempts, the Magnepan
is the best, IMO, but it has a 100hz - 15Khz range. That's
as good as one speaker will get you with today's technology.

But a two-way speaker crossover is almost idiot-proof as you
really are only matching two speakers together, and most
have a good deal of overlap - it's not hard to get flat
response in the midrange these days. Plug in the crossover
from the kit, tweak it if you want with a few better components,
and enjoy.

I have read long, long boring discussions on Madisound and DIYaudio
boards concerning the tweaking of 2 ways crossovers. Sometime it seems
to be a little bit more difficult than what you're explaining here.

Now, three or four-way crossovers are a whole
other story. That's the kind of difficulty you're imagining.

The same Magnepan speaker, for instance, with two panels and
a bit larger size(few inches) is their MMG. 50hz-20Khz.
Not much larger, but a full octave better bass and cleaner
top-end.

I am a full-range speakers fan now. There's something magic in their
apparent simplicity, something Zen ! You understand why I have chosen
Fostex drivers.
Perhaps I will get for my money perhaps it will be bull****. I just hope
I will be able to recognize if it is bull****.

Arny Krueger a écrit :

"Lionel" wrote in message


Arny Krueger a écrit :


Also, consider what sort of Xmax we are talking about. 0.3 mm is
very small Xmax for an 8" driver that we expect to reproduce 80 Hz
cleanly. If Xmax were 2 or 3 mm, I would be more likely to excuse
it. Of course, I'd like to see Xmax of 10mm or more for a subwoofer.


My problem Arnold is that I don't really like the sound of "modern"
speakers because I like quick and precise answer from the bass an not
this diffuse and not well defined loud bass that we can hear from a
lot of speakers and moreover from a lot of subwoofer.


Does this mean that you like your midrange and treble intermodulated with
bass and midbass?

Perhaps, how can I know ?

In fact I just need to reproduce with the maximum fidelity the sound
of a double-bass.


Do you like your flutes intermodulated with the sound of a double-bass?

I understand what you want to tell me here. but it is also the case in
many, many, 2 ways speakers. I guess that the horn design can improve
the frequencies "dispaching". Note that I will built a false full range
drive since I will add a tweeter.

I understand that my point of view is perhaps not really academic,
but I should also comply with the fact that there is no banker in
Chapuis' family. ;-)


http://www.madisound.com/fostex.pdf

At 94.35 each, its not exactly a cheapie.

So let say it's a caprice.

Often a 2 KHz crossover can be done with just a cap. This woofer is
smooth enough in the breakup region that you don't have to get
agressive about rolling off its high end. The other thing to watch
out for is tweeters that actually get a peak in their low end
response when driven with a simple capacitor.


I have learnt about this issue. I was thinking at a transition with a
simple 0.47 µF cap according to Fostex recommendations (perhaps a
Jensen one in order to give a little bit of blue blood to my
speakers) ). I will built these speakers like that because I like
the horn design and that it will put me serious problem of
construction skill ;-).


You didn't say what the transition was to, did you?

Above 10 Khz.

Thank you anyway for these interesting technical comments. I hope that
when the the speakers will be finished I will be able to make
objective critics. I guess that at this moment your today comments
will be usefull. Now I am too much engaged, I already dreams of them.


The last speakers I built used an approx 6.5 inch woofer and a ring
supertweeter. I think the two drivers otgether were under $100. The 6.5 inch
woofer, while not a subwoofer, can move about 10 times as much air without
excess distoriton, as the FF225K.

I will try the FF225K. If I don't like them I will try to sell them to
my neighbour. He uses to push his Eltax speakers while he is mowing the
lawn. :-)

Lionel said:

My problem Arnold is that I don't really like the sound of "modern"
speakers because I like quick and precise answer from the bass an not
this diffuse and not well defined loud bass that we can hear from a lot
of speakers and moreover from a lot of subwoofer.
In fact I just need to reproduce with the maximum fidelity the sound of
a double-bass.

Before you proceed with your speakers, you should *definitely* have a
chat with Mattijs de Vries at Machmat.
He seems to have exactly the same thoughts about reproduction as you
do.
He could keep you from making expensive mistakes.
Shoot him an e-mail, he's a very friendly guy. His only drawback is
that he talks too much when the subject is horns or tubes .........
Oh, and don't try to write in French, he'll understand NONE of it :-)

I have learnt about this issue. I was thinking at a transition with a
simple 0.47 µF cap according to Fostex recommendations (perhaps a Jensen
one in order to give a little bit of blue blood to my speakers) ).

Jensen PIOs would be a waste of resources in loudspeaker filters.
They're used best at lower level AC signals with highish DC
potentials, such as coupling caps in a tube amp.
I wouldn't even use them in a solid state amp.
IT (Intertechnik) makes very good affordable MKPs for that purpose, as
does SCR Chateauroux (SP?) and Auricap. At least IT and SCR should be
available to you in France. If not, shoot me an e-mail and I'll get
you some addresses.
Because of the lower voltages involved (mostly 100 V max) they'll be
cheaper than dedicated tube amp capacitors with higher voltages.
They sound different, too.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Lionel said:

I am a full-range speakers fan now. There's something magic in their
apparent simplicity, something Zen ! You understand why I have chosen
Fostex drivers.

You definitely are ripe for the tubes.
I can't think of something more Zen than a good tube amp.

Perhaps I will get for my money perhaps it will be bull****. I just hope
I will be able to recognize if it is bull****.

Talk to people who understand what your goals are and what drives you.
Don't underestimate how important this is!
This may involve way more than just talking about electronics,
speakers or acoustics. I warn you before :-)

I think your approach is the right one for you and a determined man
can't be stopped in reaching that goal. Keep this in mind.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

"at" wrote in message
...
Hi,


I'm looking for a good quality full range speaker. I'd like to build a
cabinet with one such speaker in it. I don't want to use additional
speakers. I would prefer to use either a closed cabinet or a vented one.
The
closed one is my first choice, as I want the most precision out of sound.
I
want to also keep the design simple, so it is easy to build.

I know full range speakers are a compromise, but I'm ready to try one. I
need one for a special purpose use and need mostly flat frequency response
from around 80Hz to 13kHz. That would be optimal. Of course the lower the
freq response starts, the better for me.

Can you recommend any suitable speaker? Size doesn't matter. I'm firstly
interested in that flat freq response, at least in the area of 80Hz-13kHz.
Secondly, the speaker should be of low input wattage (5-20W) if possible
as
I'm using a small tube amp to drive it, so I can't supply much power. That
isn't critical though, as I can use a bigger amp if needed.

Any ideas or recommendations?


Thanks,

-at


Go to www.adireaudio.com click on kits and scroll down to the HE 10.
This is a 10 inch coaxial, you build the cabinet, they give the specs for it
when you buy the kit.

Can't vouch for the quality of the sound, but in general the provide a good
product for the money.

If you need something smaller try www.madisound.com and look in their
catalog for either Peerless or SEAS, one of them makes a 6.5" coax, but
you'll have to build your own crossover.

You can also use car stereo speakers but the sound won't be great.

You could also try Radio Shack or someplace like it that caters to the
hobbyist.

Good luck.

Lionel wrote:

My problem Arnold is that I don't really like the sound of "modern"
speakers because I like quick and precise answer from the bass an not
this diffuse and not well defined loud bass that we can hear from a lot
of speakers and moreover from a lot of subwoofer.
In fact I just need to reproduce with the maximum fidelity the sound of
a double-bass.

Then there's really only ONE solution other than a planar speaker - look
into a dual-concentric type driver. It has a tweeter in the center of
the main driver and gives you a 2-way sound with a one-way effect.

Lionel wrote:

I have read long, long boring discussions on Madisound and DIYaudio
boards concerning the tweaking of 2 ways crossovers. Sometime it seems
to be a little bit more difficult than what you're explaining here.

Feh. These people are anal in the extreme and talk about brands
of capacitors and what gauge wire they use and so on as if it
really makes more than a minor difference. A simple crossover
can be done with as little as a few electrical components. The
theories are well understood and not hard to learn. I'd rank
it about as hard as building a crystal radio.

Now, full-range speakers are nice, but honestly, a MMG-W is
going to beat the stuffing out of anytihng you can buy. At
$300 a pair, why bother with a kit?

"Joseph Oberlander" a écrit dans le message
news: . net...


Lionel wrote:

My problem Arnold is that I don't really like the sound of "modern"
speakers because I like quick and precise answer from the bass an not
this diffuse and not well defined loud bass that we can hear from a lot
of speakers and moreover from a lot of subwoofer.
In fact I just need to reproduce with the maximum fidelity the sound of
a double-bass.

Then there's really only ONE solution other than a planar speaker - look
into a dual-concentric type driver. It has a tweeter in the center of
the main driver and gives you a 2-way sound with a one-way effect.

Yes I like this idea too.
I have seen some fantastic realizations with concentric horn compression
drivers... A little bit like the Russian "matriochka", from the smallest to
the very very big one.
The most crazy of them have built their house around the speaker system. ;-)

Joseph Oberlander said:

...... why bother with a kit?

Because it's fun?

I get the feeling I'm repeating myself too much.
I get the feeling I'm repeating myself too much.
I get the feeling I'm repeating myself too much.
I get the feeling I'm repeating myself too much.
I get the feeling I'm repeating myself too much.
I get the feeling I'm repeating myself too much.
I get the feeling I'm repeating myself too much.
I get the feeling I'm repeating myself too much.
I get the feeling I'm repeating myself too much.
I get the feeling I'm repeating myself too much.

scratch

I get the feeling I'm repeating myself too much.

Sorry, old vinyl.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

at wrote:
Hi,


I'm looking for a good quality full range speaker. I'd like to build a
cabinet with one such speaker in it. I don't want to use additional
speakers. I would prefer to use either a closed cabinet or a vented one. The
closed one is my first choice, as I want the most precision out of sound. I
want to also keep the design simple, so it is easy to build.

[snip]

There was a review in the January, 2004 Stereophile of three
single-driver speaker systems that you might be interested in having a
look at -- portions of the article appear to be online at the
Stereophile website . . .

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/104moth/
http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/104horn/

"johnebravo836" wrote in message

at wrote:
Hi,


I'm looking for a good quality full range speaker. I'd like to build
a cabinet with one such speaker in it. I don't want to use additional
speakers. I would prefer to use either a closed cabinet or a vented
one. The closed one is my first choice, as I want the most precision
out of sound. I want to also keep the design simple, so it is easy
to build.

[snip]

There was a review in the January, 2004 Stereophile of three
single-driver speaker systems that you might be interested in having a
look at -- portions of the article appear to be online at the
Stereophile website . . .

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/104moth/

Notice the massive hole off axis, from 2 Khz on up. Rough, peaky response

Notice the absence of measurements of bass power-handling ability.

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/104horn/

Ditto, only now from 4 KHz on up.. Rough, peaky response

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeak...us/index3.html

Pushes the bar up to 10 KHz or so. Pretty smooth.

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeak...ty/index4.html

Just a relatively smooth transition from broad dispersion to narrower
disperson. Smoother, yet.

Arny Krueger a écrit :

"johnebravo836" wrote in message


at wrote:

Hi,


I'm looking for a good quality full range speaker. I'd like to build
a cabinet with one such speaker in it. I don't want to use additional
speakers. I would prefer to use either a closed cabinet or a vented
one. The closed one is my first choice, as I want the most precision
out of sound. I want to also keep the design simple, so it is easy
to build.

[snip]

There was a review in the January, 2004 Stereophile of three
single-driver speaker systems that you might be interested in having a
look at -- portions of the article appear to be online at the
Stereophile website . . .

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/104moth/


Notice the massive hole off axis, from 2 Khz on up. Rough, peaky response

Notice the absence of measurements of bass power-handling ability.


http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/104horn/


Ditto, only now from 4 KHz on up.. Rough, peaky response

What interested me is the following :

"Despite the somewhat fulsome lower octaves, the lowest notes in Jorge
Bolet's performance of Liszt's Funerailles (CD, BMG 63748-2) had
excellent pitch definition. In fact, the Horn loved good piano
recordings, tending toward a pleasantly big, dramatic sound with an
especially nice sense of flow and an unusually human touch—nothing
mechanical about the sound of the piano through this speaker."

I have read the same thing so many times about Fostex drivers. It seems
that a lot of guys have been totally astonished by the quality of the
piano and the human voice with horn construction + Fostex drivers.
This is why I *imperatively* need to test them.

"You have to be fairly brave to buy the Horns. It's like that scene in
The Abyss where Ed Harris stops breathing air and starts breathing
liquid: This is a whole new way of doing things,"

After that I'll be a kind of pioneer. :-)