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#1
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Audio Editing program that can visually overlay two waveforms?
I have a problem that my current audio editing software, Sound Forge,
can't seem to handle, and hope there is some software that has the feature I need. I'm in the middle of a video archiving project, and have found a better audio source for one of the video clips. But when I lay the new source in by syncing the start, it goes out of sync. Even if I change the length of the new audio to match the start and end of the original track, the sync goes in and out. Obviously, there were speed variations in the original audio playback (the clip is a lip-sync performance). What I need is an editing program that will allow me to overlay one waveform's graphical representation over another's, so I can visually match the peaks. In animation, this feature is termed "onion-skinning", after the thin paper used for tracing. Ideally, the program would also allow one to stretch time visually - perhaps by overlaying a set of tick marks that would represent minutes/seconds/frames and would allow the user to select and drag them to "squash and stretch" the time. I know that there is a lot of audio data to manipulate, but for my purposes, real-time playback is not needed. I could do all this visually and then "render" the audio. Or possibly a low quality audio version (8 bit for instance) could be used as a "proxy". Anything like this exist? Or if not, are there any programmers looking to create a sound editor that has these features? |
#2
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if the audio is speech, it probably has slight gaps in it, in which
case one could cut the audio into short sections and align each section manually (easy enough to do). This can be done even if there are no gaps, by cutting in suitable places and overlapping the audio, with careful adjustment and cross-fading . . . if a section is too short, you can lengthen it then cross-fade etc. This is time-consuming, but good results are usually possible (I've done it many times to adjust things in music). To stretch and squash time smoothly (rather than in sections) you could use a "graphic pitch-bend" feature . . . CoolEdit (now Adobe Audition) has one . . . so you can change the speed gradually, using a graph you create. You'd still have to fit this to what you want, manually, though, so it's still a time-consuming solution. One possible more automatic solution is that a good sequencer program (such as Logic Audio) can create a "groove template" from a rhythmic section of audio, and then another rhythmic section of audio can be automatically adjusted to fit that groove template. But, that would only work if the audio is rhythmic enough for the software to detect the "beats" I would guess. I have not heard of any software which does exactly what you are describing. That's all I can think of for now! Chris (http://www.chris-melchior.com/strings.htm REAL strings for realistic prices) |
#3
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"Chris W" wrote in message oups.com... I have a problem that my current audio editing software, Sound Forge, can't seem to handle, and hope there is some software that has the feature I need. What I need is an editing program that will allow me to overlay one waveform's graphical representation over another's, so I can visually match the peaks. Anything like this exist? Or if not, are there any programmers looking to create a sound editor that has these features? I think that by loosing this feature in favor of a 'dual audio layer' in newer versions, came a big loss of functionality for CD Architect. If you have an older version of Sonic Foundry's CD Architect (4.xx), it has this function. You can drag one file directly over another, have a clear graphic repre- sentation of both files and the ability to select and manipulate either. You might even have some luck with a newer version of CDA using the 'dual audio layer.' However, the two layers do not superimpose but rather run concurrently above and below one another. They also do not automatically 'mix' on playback and any editing of this nature still has to be done in 'Forge'. -- David Morgan (MAMS) http://www.m-a-m-s.com Morgan Audio Media Service Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901 _______________________________________ http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com |
#4
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I think DP has this feature, called vocalyn(sp) One waveform can be mapped
to another. Maybe you know someone in your area with this program Rick Hollett "David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message news:QyIGe.2426$Tk6.1166@trnddc02... "Chris W" wrote in message oups.com... I have a problem that my current audio editing software, Sound Forge, can't seem to handle, and hope there is some software that has the feature I need. What I need is an editing program that will allow me to overlay one waveform's graphical representation over another's, so I can visually match the peaks. Anything like this exist? Or if not, are there any programmers looking to create a sound editor that has these features? I think that by loosing this feature in favor of a 'dual audio layer' in newer versions, came a big loss of functionality for CD Architect. If you have an older version of Sonic Foundry's CD Architect (4.xx), it has this function. You can drag one file directly over another, have a clear graphic repre- sentation of both files and the ability to select and manipulate either. You might even have some luck with a newer version of CDA using the 'dual audio layer.' However, the two layers do not superimpose but rather run concurrently above and below one another. They also do not automatically 'mix' on playback and any editing of this nature still has to be done in 'Forge'. -- David Morgan (MAMS) http://www.m-a-m-s.com Morgan Audio Media Service Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901 _______________________________________ http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com |
#6
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On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:51:12 -0400, Chris W wrote
(in article .com): I have a problem that my current audio editing software, Sound Forge, can't seem to handle, and hope there is some software that has the feature I need. I'm in the middle of a video archiving project, and have found a better audio source for one of the video clips. But when I lay the new source in by syncing the start, it goes out of sync. Even if I change the length of the new audio to match the start and end of the original track, the sync goes in and out. Obviously, there were speed variations in the original audio playback (the clip is a lip-sync performance). What I need is an editing program that will allow me to overlay one waveform's graphical representation over another's, so I can visually match the peaks. In animation, this feature is termed "onion-skinning", after the thin paper used for tracing. Ideally, the program would also allow one to stretch time visually - perhaps by overlaying a set of tick marks that would represent minutes/seconds/frames and would allow the user to select and drag them to "squash and stretch" the time. I know that there is a lot of audio data to manipulate, but for my purposes, real-time playback is not needed. I could do all this visually and then "render" the audio. Or possibly a low quality audio version (8 bit for instance) could be used as a "proxy". Anything like this exist? Or if not, are there any programmers looking to create a sound editor that has these features? Or use Vocalign software, now available as a Pro Tools plug in. Ty Ford -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
#7
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Chris,
What I need is an editing program that will allow me to overlay one waveform's graphical representation over another's, so I can visually match the peaks. I do this all the time in Vegas Video by simply adding an additional audio track and lining it up with the original audio to be replaced, splitting the replacement track as needed to keep each section in sync. When I'm done I mute the original audio and let the replacement play. Of course, Sound Forge is a single-track audio editor, so it can't do that. Not that you need Vegas Video or a dedicated video editor program either. Several audio multi-track programs can view video and accommodate multiple audio tracks. For example, Sonar does this. --Ethan |
#8
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Or if you don't want to migrate to a different application, why don't
you create markers for your master layer and split the additional layers intro smaller audio snippets and just snap/drag them onto the marker points? If the whole track is not rhythmically constant and recorded against a metronome, you'll probably have to perform the splits anyway... Regards, Evangelos % Evangelos Himonides IoE, University of London tel: +44 2076126599 fax: +44 2076126741 "Allas to those who never sing but die with all their music in them..." Oliver Wendell Holmes % |
#9
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In article writes: I think DP has this feature, called vocalyn(sp) VocALign is what I was thinking of, I think. http://tinyurl.com/dlj3a -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
#10
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"Ty Ford" wrote in message
... Or use Vocalign software, now available as a Pro Tools plug in. There's a standard Window's version too that will work with any audio software. |
#11
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In article "Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com writes: I do this all the time in Vegas Video by simply adding an additional audio track and lining it up with the original audio to be replaced, splitting the replacement track as needed to keep each section in sync. When I'm done I mute the original audio and let the replacement play. I think that what the original poster was dreaming about was to have the two tracks on screen right on top of each other rather than adjacent. That might make alignment easier, it might make it more difficult. I think your approach would work fine, once you get into the tedium of the job. -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
#13
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On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:47:34 -0400, Ricky Hunt wrote
(in article aXPGe.199104$x96.31860@attbi_s72): "Ty Ford" wrote in message ... Or use Vocalign software, now available as a Pro Tools plug in. There's a standard Window's version too that will work with any audio software. I'm also remembering an Australian-based DAW system that did show overlapping files on one track. Too many AES and NAB shows back. I don't know if it's still around. Also, I know you could see the layers "in the holes" but am not sure if you could see the waveforms on top of each other. Ty Ford -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
#14
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1122744750k@trad... In article "Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com writes: I do this all the time in Vegas Video by simply adding an additional audio track and lining it up with the original audio to be replaced, splitting the replacement track as needed to keep each section in sync. When I'm done I mute the original audio and let the replacement play. I think that what the original poster was dreaming about was to have the two tracks on screen right on top of each other rather than adjacent. That might make alignment easier, it might make it more difficult. I think your approach would work fine, once you get into the tedium of the job. Tedium is inherent in many audio editing tasks. Some things just can't be automated --- at least not now or in the foreseeable future. (Of course, Auto-tune wasn't foreseeable, either ;-)) Steve King |
#15
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Any approach that involves splitting the audio up into snippets won't
work. This is a musical performance - a lip sync. As far as I can tell, the original playback machine used for the performance had speed issues. Not major ones, but enough to cause the sync to vary enough to be noticable. Vegas sounds interesting if it can do the overlay (I used Canopus' Edius)...but what I really need is the "squash and stretch" feature to allow me to compensate for the speed variations in the original playback. |
#16
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#17
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#18
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On 29 Jul 2005 22:51:12 -0700, Chris W wrote:
I have a problem that my current audio editing software, Sound Forge, can't seem to handle, and hope there is some software that has the feature I need. I'm in the middle of a video archiving project, and have found a better audio source for one of the video clips. But when I lay the new source in by syncing the start, it goes out of sync. Even if I change the length of the new audio to match the start and end of the original track, the sync goes in and out. Obviously, there were speed variations in the original audio playback (the clip is a lip-sync performance). You may use the multitrack mode of Adobe's Audition for that. You can cut into a pair of tracks and move the parts around on the time line. Else you can delete small parts of a clip to shift the remainder to earlier times or insert some silence to shift to later times. You can strech or shrink a track to fit into a given time interval as well. Optionally the pitch can be preserved. In edit mode you can overlay the waveform display with the video and check for sync. Usually Adobe software can be downloaded and tested for 20...30 days with full functionality. Norbert |
#19
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Chris W wrote:
Any approach that involves splitting the audio up into snippets won't work. This is a musical performance - a lip sync. As far as I can tell, the original playback machine used for the performance had speed issues. Not major ones, but enough to cause the sync to vary enough to be noticable. Vegas sounds interesting if it can do the overlay (I used Canopus' Edius)...but what I really need is the "squash and stretch" feature to allow me to compensate for the speed variations in the original playback. Why won't cutting and pasting work? I used to do this sort of thing all the time with magfilm... cut out 1/4 frame here, cut out a 1/4 frame there. If you do the cuts between the words and make them small enough it can be quite seamless. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#20
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Maybe it's time to edit the video rather than the audio. Put up a picture
of something else besides the mouth when the sync is too far off. Excellent idea. |
#21
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Chris W ha scritto:
I have a problem that my current audio editing software, Sound Forge, can't seem to handle, and hope there is some software that has the feature I need. I'm in the middle of a video archiving project, and have found a better audio source for one of the video clips. But when I lay the new source in by syncing the start, it goes out of sync. Even if I change the length of the new audio to match the start and end of the original track, the sync goes in and out. Obviously, there were speed variations in the original audio playback (the clip is a lip-sync performance). What I need is an editing program that will allow me to overlay one waveform's graphical representation over another's, so I can visually match the peaks. In animation, this feature is termed "onion-skinning", after the thin paper used for tracing. Ideally, the program would also allow one to stretch time visually - perhaps by overlaying a set of tick marks that would represent minutes/seconds/frames and would allow the user to select and drag them to "squash and stretch" the time. I know that there is a lot of audio data to manipulate, but for my purposes, real-time playback is not needed. I could do all this visually and then "render" the audio. Or possibly a low quality audio version (8 bit for instance) could be used as a "proxy". Anything like this exist? Or if not, are there any programmers looking to create a sound editor that has these features? You may try cubase. You can open two adiacent tracks, one with the new sound and the other with the old one. Cubase has a feature to detect peaks and is capable to place a marker on it. Then you simply slice the new audio according to markers and move it to the corresponding markers on the old track. But before you start, try to understand if one of the 2 tracks has been stretched. Then the best solution will be adjust the new track lenght to match the old track lenght, using the "stretch" feature present on many audio software. If not stretched, use cubase bye |
#22
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http://lasso.motu.com/extensions/ext...-Token.Action=
This should help explain what's needed to fix your sync problem Rick Hollett |
#23
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"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote:
I do this all the time in Vegas Video by simply adding an additional audio track and lining it up with the original audio to be replaced, splitting the replacement track as needed to keep each section in sync. Fine for dialog, not so much for music. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
#24
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"Chris W" wrote:
I'm in the middle of a video archiving project, and have found a better audio source for one of the video clips. But when I lay the new source in by syncing the start, it goes out of sync. Try VocAlign. I've only used it on speech so I don't know how well it will handle the greater demands of music, but it would be fun to try anyway. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
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