[Keoki]

Now that both units hover in the $500 - $800 range, I'm trying to
determine which offers better harmonizing & vocal bettering quality.
The older Eventide is more famous, but the TC is newer, perhaps
further improved? I don't see any comparison on the Web. Did anyone
compare the two or care to offer an opinion? (Other than "try
both?" :-) Thank you in advance

[david gourley[_2_]]

Keoki said...news:78d041b2-2a28-4ac7-9d69-
:

Now that both units hover in the $500 - $800 range, I'm trying to
determine which offers better harmonizing & vocal bettering quality.
The older Eventide is more famous, but the TC is newer, perhaps
further improved? I don't see any comparison on the Web. Did anyone
compare the two or care to offer an opinion? (Other than "try
both?" :-) Thank you in advance

While I haven't used either (but own an H949), I'd recommend
the Eventide. You can at least get service manuals and support
for them.

From a recent thread regarding TC products, I'm not sure you
can say the same.

david

[Keoki]

Hmm, your mentioning of the manual reminds me of the TC Quintet I
owned, 2008-ish. Even with the skimpy "manual", I could never get the
UI to work. I always got stuck with a blinking patch number at some
patch I didn't want, and nothing would get me out of there short of a
power cycle. Ultimately I just resold the unit, I got no productive
use out of it for a second. This from a guy who has no difficulties
mastering Kyma X.

I actually told this story to my Swee****er rep, asking, "can we be
sure the VoiceLive 2 doesn't have the same useless UI?" That was my
only question. Didn't get a reply in 3 days so far, I guess the answer
is negative... :-\

[Keoki]

I started out with the VoiceLive 2, I'm still chasing a good deal on
the Eventide. (Any rickety H3000 will do, I got the D/SE replacement
chipset already to plug into it.)

One thing about the VoiceLive 2 is, I can sing a note, hold a swanky 8
key jazz chord on a connected MIDI keyboard, and Preset 202 will
harmonize my voice to those 8 notes, quite pleasantly too. I only
read the Eventide H3000 manual so far, but is MIDI and Parameter
Modulation chapter does not detail such capability. It only says "MIDI
notes could be used to set the amount of pitch shift. ... See the
chapter of Parameter Modulation." where it adds nothing more. (Is it
monophonic shift? Polyphonic? Restricted to scale? 3-voice only? Go
guess.)

[hank alrich]

Keoki wrote:

I started out with the VoiceLive 2, I'm still chasing a good deal on
the Eventide. (Any rickety H3000 will do, I got the D/SE replacement
chipset already to plug into it.)

One thing about the VoiceLive 2 is, I can sing a note, hold a swanky 8
key jazz chord on a connected MIDI keyboard, and Preset 202 will
harmonize my voice to those 8 notes, quite pleasantly too. I only
read the Eventide H3000 manual so far, but is MIDI and Parameter
Modulation chapter does not detail such capability. It only says "MIDI
notes could be used to set the amount of pitch shift. ... See the
chapter of Parameter Modulation." where it adds nothing more. (Is it
monophonic shift? Polyphonic? Restricted to scale? 3-voice only? Go
guess.)

Drop me an email. I have an H3000 that I aim to sell shortly. Depending
on where you live maybe we could make a deal.

I'm about to off most of my hardware. I'm through recording others,
except for a couple of trios in which I play, and am going to unload
what I no longer plan to use.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Keoki]

I have an answer from Eventide, the H3000 will do the MIDI-controlled
8-voice pitch shifting what I described. They are also working on a
native version of the Eventide Octavox plugin that will eventually do
the same thing in software, but it is not out yet.

The Pro Tools Octavox costs ~ $500 anyway, I almost scored a used
H3000 on ebay for that in March.

[Keoki]

While still fishing for a good deal on a H3000 on eBay, I ran into an
interesting issue with the VoiceLive 2. No matter what I do with the
machine, the vocal harmonies seems to have a tiny lag, even with all
delay, modulation, reverb, etc. effects off. It's not a huge echo
slapback, just a tiny lag, but over time it causes me to drift more
and more behind the tempo as I sing the each note more behind the beat
to compensate for the lagging previous note.

Do Eventides have this weird phenomenon too?

[hank alrich]

Keoki wrote:

While still fishing for a good deal on a H3000 on eBay, I ran into an
interesting issue with the VoiceLive 2. No matter what I do with the
machine, the vocal harmonies seems to have a tiny lag, even with all
delay, modulation, reverb, etc. effects off. It's not a huge echo
slapback, just a tiny lag, but over time it causes me to drift more
and more behind the tempo as I sing the each note more behind the beat
to compensate for the lagging previous note.

Do Eventides have this weird phenomenon too?

Anytime there is conversion there will be latency. I'm not familiar with
the VL2, but I have many times sung "harmony" via the H3000 and not met
that problem.

How are you routing the feed and return? Does the VL2 have a direct,
non-processed path? Some processors do, and some don't, requiring that
any signal fed them travel ADCDAC.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Keoki]

Hello Hank,

I was away from the group, but I'm back. I traced the cause of the
VoiceLive 2 delay to user bungling. I unwittingly created a feedback
loop at the patchbay.

Well, that's resolved. I'm still fishing for an Eventide, because I
still find small niggles with the Helicon. It removes the vibrato I
sing from the harmonies, its pitch shift quality is okay but I wonder
if the Eventide doesn't do this better...

[Keoki]

Something weird is going on... normally there are 3-4 Eventide H3000
(and newer) harmonizers on eBay. This week there is suddenly 20. And
lots of top of the line models, when normally I rarely see even one.
Hmm, the old timers must have gotten a preview of the Native (VST)
version of H3000... I guess it's good :-)

[Keoki]

Report from the trenches: I got a H3000 finally. A black and yellow classic H3000, with OS 1.53. Let's see which unit pitch shifts from MIDI better, finally!

Well...

Only one of this H3000's presets does MIDI-controlled pitch shifting, #211 Rock 'N' Roll. And even this does it only monophonically. I looked into the preset if there is a toggle parameter that makes it work with MIDI unlike the others. No gratification around the Function key, the MIDI settings seems to be global.

Moving on to the Parameter key, I copied the likeliest culprit, the "Last note & PW = 7.0 Ch +0" setting to other presets. Still no pitch shift by MIDI key press from any other preset. Not even monophonically, let alone in polyphony.

So apparently a stock H3000 doesn't pitch shift polyphonically by MIDI note at all. I asked on Eventide's forum is this is maybe a function of only later models, like the H3000D/SE, or H3500 or whatever. So far there is no answer. This is getting weirder and weirder by each day.

[Mike Rivers]

On 8/28/2012 6:30 AM, Keoki wrote:
Report from the trenches: I got a H3000 finally. A black
and yellow classic H3000, with OS 1.53.

Only one of this H3000's presets does MIDI-controlled
pitch shifting, #211 Rock 'N' Roll. And even this does it
only monophonically.

Are you sure it has the stock presets? On the other hand, it
IS a "classic." I remember using an even more classic 910
which had voltage control for pitch shift. I connected a
power supply to it, set the voltage for the pitch I wanted,
and pushed the button at the right time when punching in on
a copy of the track so I'd have a pitch fixed track for
mixing. Repeated for the next note that needed fixing.

You're trying to make this too easy. Sweat a little.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Keoki]

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 11:26:47 PM UTC+11, Mike Rivers wrote:

Are you sure it has the stock presets?

Now I am, I just went through reinitializing the H3000. Yep, it's the same presets again. And still only #211 Rock'N'Roll pitch shifts to MIDI notes. (Monophonically.) So this wasn't the solution.

Next step: learning to solder, to expand the H3000 to the big boy H3000 D/SE. Perhaps polyphonic MIDI note pitch shifting was added only to the later D/SE models. We'll know in a few days if I don't bungle the soldering :-)

[Tom Jancauskas]

in article , Keoki at
wrote on 8/30/12 2:22 AM:

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 11:26:47 PM UTC+11, Mike Rivers wrote:

Are you sure it has the stock presets?

Now I am, I just went through reinitializing the H3000. Yep, it's the same
presets again. And still only #211 Rock'N'Roll pitch shifts to MIDI notes.
(Monophonically.) So this wasn't the solution.

Next step: learning to solder, to expand the H3000 to the big boy H3000 D/SE.
Perhaps polyphonic MIDI note pitch shifting was added only to the later D/SE
models. We'll know in a few days if I don't bungle the soldering :-)

I am not sure if the H3000 was ever polyphonic device to begin with. Before
you do all this, did you happen to check the Eventide web site or contact
them for a 3000D/SE manual with a preset list and MIDI implementation? Just
a thought....
--
Tom Jancauskas
Imedia
imediarecording.com
630.443.6858

[Keoki]

I haven't sweated much yet, but as far as swearing, I probably filled my 2000-2020 quota today. You can guess why, I tried to solder the H3000 which is a necessary step for the D/SE expansion. I first mucked around with a soldering iron for two days, watched a dozen Youtube videos, then I attempted to solder the four places on the H3000 mobo.

The one that needed unsoldering first is ugly, but done (I hope):
http://www.SouthSeasCave.com/wp-cont...H3000_mobo.jpg

The second pair of 1 mm rectangles keeps giving me the fits. It's such a remote canyon that even light doesn't fall onto it between the chip sockets (I had to take the photo with a flashlight). The surface seems to be averse to solder too. Trying to solder covered the mobo with some fine light dust in the vicinity, while the soldering point itself ended up in a black-yellow blob of gunk. Like a miniature bomb blast site.

All I wanted is decent MIDI pitch shifting, and I'm soldering a motherboard.. Did I just go totally barking mad?


On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:26:47 AM UTC-10, Mike Rivers wrote:
You're trying to make this too easy. Sweat a little.

[Keoki]

On Friday, August 31, 2012 6:18:08 AM UTC+11, Tom Jancauskas wrote:

I am not sure if the H3000 was ever polyphonic device to begin with. Before
you do all this, did you happen to check the Eventide web site or contact
them for a 3000D/SE manual with a preset list and MIDI implementation? Just
a thought....

Hello Tom,

Do you mean, I should check with Eventide if their harmonizer can harmonize? Harmony is polyphonic. Otherwise it's called a solo. If the H3000 cannot create harmony, why they call it a "harmonizer", of all things? And "ultra" to boot.

[Tom Jancauskas]

in article , Keoki at
wrote on 9/1/12 2:28 AM:

On Friday, August 31, 2012 6:18:08 AM UTC+11, Tom Jancauskas wrote:

I am not sure if the H3000 was ever polyphonic device to begin with. Before
you do all this, did you happen to check the Eventide web site or contact
them for a 3000D/SE manual with a preset list and MIDI implementation? Just
a thought....

Hello Tom,

Do you mean, I should check with Eventide if their harmonizer can harmonize?
Harmony is polyphonic. Otherwise it's called a solo. If the H3000 cannot
create harmony, why they call it a "harmonizer", of all things? And "ultra"
to boot.

What I meant was polyphonic voices of pitch shift.

Sure it will transpose a single note or chord, or whatever you feed it up or
down whatever fixed pitch you set, and affects all audio you feed it
equally, but I don't think you can pitch change a note within a chord over
midi. If it not what you want to do, then never mind! :-)

I thought you might pose this question to Eventide before diving into the
mod you are now in the middle of.

--
Tom Jancauskas
Imedia
imediarecording.com
630.443.6858

[Tom Jancauskas]

in article , Keoki at
wrote on 9/1/12 2:28 AM:

On Friday, August 31, 2012 6:18:08 AM UTC+11, Tom Jancauskas wrote:

I am not sure if the H3000 was ever polyphonic device to begin with. Before
you do all this, did you happen to check the Eventide web site or contact
them for a 3000D/SE manual with a preset list and MIDI implementation? Just
a thought....

Hello Tom,

Do you mean, I should check with Eventide if their harmonizer can harmonize?
Harmony is polyphonic. Otherwise it's called a solo. If the H3000 cannot
create harmony, why they call it a "harmonizer", of all things? And "ultra"
to boot.

I read back what you originally wrote and I am not really sure a H series
Eventide will do what you want. It almost sounds like you want a sampler. I
can't think of any other box that can take a single note and split/harmonize
the original into a new chord real time.

Maybe a Digitech vocalist live pro would work - I dunno...


--
Tom Jancauskas
Imedia
imediarecording.com
630.443.6858

[Scott Dorsey]

Keoki wrote:

The second pair of 1 mm rectangles keeps giving me the fits. It's such a re=
mote canyon that even light doesn't fall onto it between the chip sockets (=
I had to take the photo with a flashlight). The surface seems to be averse =
to solder too. Trying to solder covered the mobo with some fine light dust =
in the vicinity, while the soldering point itself ended up in a black-yello=
w blob of gunk. Like a miniature bomb blast site.

Are you using a temperature controlled iron and keeping it scrupulously
clean? A strong desk light, a magnifier and plenty of liquid flux will
be needed for this sort of work.

All I wanted is decent MIDI pitch shifting, and I'm soldering a motherboard=
. Did I just go totally barking mad?

This is what audio engineers do. If youare not comfortable doing fine soldering
work, get someone else to do it for yo0u.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Keoki]

On Sunday, September 2, 2012 3:16:54 AM UTC+11, Scott Dorsey wrote:

Are you using a temperature controlled iron and keeping it scrupulously
clean? A strong desk light, a magnifier and plenty of liquid flux will
be needed for this sort of work.

I'm using two soldering irons I *could* buy at RadioShack. ("Soldering? Wish we could help you but no one of us 5 knows soldering".) Wait, let me rephrase this. I'm using *one* soldering iron whose head is wider than the rectangle to be soldered. Because the target is vertically surrounded with chip sockets, I must hold the iron nearly vertically to reach it, which obstructs the view. It's a 30W iron, temperature control means plugging it in. I also bought a second soldering iron with a finer tip, which died died on me in minutes, while I was still just tinning it. Now it's not heating up anymore.

That "bomb blast" gunk on the second soldering point looks real awful, I wonder if I should buy some sort of mobo cleaning solution. The desoldering braid isn't removing it.

[Keoki]

On Sunday, September 2, 2012 2:35:23 AM UTC+11, Tom Jancauskas wrote:

can't think of any other box that can take a single note and split/harmonize
the original into a new chord real time.

My TC VoiceLive 2, my Yamaha PSR9000, my Akai DeccaBuddy program, the "harmonizer" functions of several digital multitracks I used to own, etc. - *everything* I ever owned that called itself a "harmonizer" could do MIDI note pitch shifting. Until now.

So, then, any harmonizer can do MIDI harmony, except the most expensive, Eventide ones? That call themselves "ultra" harmonizers, even. Kinda hard to wrap around my head.

[Keoki]

Well, I'll be darned. I cleaned up the "bomb blast" rosin gunk of the second solder point real nice with Q-tips sprayed with control/contact cleaner & lube (difluoroethane), tried another solder attempt after a wipe & dry - and the solder still doesn't stick to the target pads. Instead it forms a floating ball on its rosin puddle, like a sunny side up egg.

http://www.SouthSeasCave.com/wp-cont...12/08/ball.jpg

What is wrong with this picture besides everything? :-)

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sat, 1 Sep 2012 14:52:17 -0700 (PDT), Keoki
wrote:

Well, I'll be darned. I cleaned up the "bomb blast" rosin gunk of the second solder point real nice with Q-tips sprayed with control/contact cleaner & lube (difluoroethane), tried another solder attempt after a wipe & dry - and the solder still doesn't stick to the target pads. Instead it forms a floating ball on its rosin puddle, like a sunny side up egg.

http://www.SouthSeasCave.com/wp-cont...12/08/ball.jpg

What is wrong with this picture besides everything? :-)

You probably need to scrape the pad with a sharp blade. There is some
contamination on it that is not being dissolved. Also use the biggest
soldering iron tip that will fit on the pad.

d

[Keoki]

On Sunday, September 2, 2012 10:13:00 AM UTC+11, Don Pearce wrote:
You probably need to scrape the pad with a sharp blade. There is some
contamination on it that is not being dissolved.

OK, I can try the scraping approach.
Besides applying cleaner with the Q-Tips I also had success in cleaning the "bomb blast" area mess by pushing the desoldering braid to it with a heated iron. This produced smoke, which I believed to be the rosin gunk going up in smoke. I did this in brief steps with a very light touch, because I wasn't sure how close I was to potentially melting something else.

[mark lewis[_2_]]

K On Sunday, September 2, 2012 10:13:00 AM UTC+11, Don Pearce wrote:
You probably need to scrape the pad with a sharp blade. There is some
contamination on it that is not being dissolved.=20

K OK, I can try the scraping approach.
K Besides applying cleaner with the Q-Tips I also had success in
K cleaning the= "bomb blast" area mess by pushing the desoldering
K braid to it with a heate= d iron. This produced smoke, which I
K believed to be the rosin gunk going up= in smoke. I did this in
K brief steps with a very light touch, because I was= n't sure how
K close I was to potentially melting something else.

i was rather astonished but not surprised that you were having problems based on your description of your techniques and troubles... a 30watt iron is huge for most of today's jobs... i paid like $60USD to $8USD for my fine point soldering iron way back...
i agree with a/the previous poster that the pads need additional cleaning... alcohol will only go so far... especially rubbing alcohol which may have other stuff added to it which can and will complicate things at times... get some circuit board cleaner s
)\/(ark

--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Waldo's Place USA 919-774-5930 telnet://bbs.wpusa.dynip.com
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

[John Williamson]

mark lewis wrote:
K On Sunday, September 2, 2012 10:13:00 AM UTC+11, Don Pearce wrote:
You probably need to scrape the pad with a sharp blade. There is some
contamination on it that is not being dissolved.=20

K OK, I can try the scraping approach.
K Besides applying cleaner with the Q-Tips I also had success in
K cleaning the= "bomb blast" area mess by pushing the desoldering
K braid to it with a heate= d iron. This produced smoke, which I
K believed to be the rosin gunk going up= in smoke. I did this in
K brief steps with a very light touch, because I was= n't sure how
K close I was to potentially melting something else.

i was rather astonished but not surprised that you were having problems based on your description of your techniques and troubles... a 30watt iron is huge for most of today's jobs... i paid like $60USD to $8USD for my fine point soldering iron way back...
i agree with a/the previous poster that the pads need additional cleaning... alcohol will only go so far... especially rubbing alcohol which may have other stuff added to it which can and will complicate things at times... get some circuit board cleaner s
)\/(ark

Also. the parts of the board which are not soldered by the makers have
been coated with solder resist, which needs to be removed mechanically.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Keoki]

On Sunday, September 2, 2012 6:39:51 PM UTC+11, John Williamson wrote:

Also. the parts of the board which are not soldered by the makers have
been coated with solder resist, which needs to be removed mechanically.

Solder resist? It's the first time I hear of such a thing. Aha, this would explain the pads' weird hostility to solder. So this substance must be scraped off, it can't be melted off with the soldering iron?

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sun, 2 Sep 2012 01:26:22 -0700 (PDT), Keoki
wrote:

On Sunday, September 2, 2012 6:39:51 PM UTC+11, John Williamson wrote:

Also. the parts of the board which are not soldered by the makers have
been coated with solder resist, which needs to be removed mechanically.

Solder resist? It's the first time I hear of such a thing. Aha, this would explain the pads' weird hostility to solder. So this substance must be scraped off, it can't be melted off with the soldering iron?

The green stuff all over the board is solder resist. It is there to
make manufacturing easier - it stops the solder flowing all over the
place and dragging the components around. You should be able to see
bright metal wherever you want to solder something.

If you need to add something, you can scrape away the resist to expose
copper, but it won't be the most solderable spot ever. You need to
work at it with flux to make the solder flow properly.

d

[John Williamson]

Keoki wrote:
On Sunday, September 2, 2012 6:39:51 PM UTC+11, John Williamson wrote:

Also. the parts of the board which are not soldered by the makers have
been coated with solder resist, which needs to be removed mechanically.

Solder resist? It's the first time I hear of such a thing. Aha, this would explain the pads' weird hostility to solder. So this substance must be scraped off, it can't be melted off with the soldering iron?

Yup. When they make the board, they apply a thin coating of solder to
all the track, then print solder resist onto the bits where they don't
want solder to stick. It makes the soldering method they use more reliable.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 09:05:07 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:

On Sun, 2 Sep 2012 01:26:22 -0700 (PDT), Keoki
wrote:

On Sunday, September 2, 2012 6:39:51 PM UTC+11, John Williamson wrote:

Also. the parts of the board which are not soldered by the makers have
been coated with solder resist, which needs to be removed mechanically.

Solder resist? It's the first time I hear of such a thing. Aha, this would explain the pads' weird hostility to solder. So this substance must be scraped off, it can't be melted off with the soldering iron?

The green stuff all over the board is solder resist. It is there to
make manufacturing easier - it stops the solder flowing all over the
place and dragging the components around. You should be able to see
bright metal wherever you want to solder something.

If you need to add something, you can scrape away the resist to expose
copper, but it won't be the most solderable spot ever. You need to
work at it with flux to make the solder flow properly.

d

Should have added - the colophony-free fluxes used in modern solder
are almost useless, particularly in conjunction with ROHS-compliant
lead-free solder. You would be better off hammering nails through to
fix it. If you can find a reel of 60/40 Sn/Pb solder from the 1970s,
you will find that this is all much simpler.

d

[Tom Jancauskas]

in article , Keoki at
wrote on 9/1/12 12:52 PM:

On Sunday, September 2, 2012 2:35:23 AM UTC+11, Tom Jancauskas wrote:

can't think of any other box that can take a single note and split/harmonize
the original into a new chord real time.

My TC VoiceLive 2, my Yamaha PSR9000, my Akai DeccaBuddy program, the
"harmonizer" functions of several digital multitracks I used to own, etc. -
*everything* I ever owned that called itself a "harmonizer" could do MIDI note
pitch shifting. Until now.

So, then, any harmonizer can do MIDI harmony, except the most expensive,
Eventide ones? That call themselves "ultra" harmonizers, even. Kinda hard to
wrap around my head.


The other were designed years after the the H3000 series. It is amazing
that the H3000/3500 can do what it does given the technology.

On one of the items mentioned - Akai DeccaBuddy- you are trying to compare
VST's to actual hardware that is over 20-25 years old. It is not a fair
comparison or expectation that the H series will do what you want.

Think of it as comparing the technology used on the space shuttle vs the
power of a modern day smart phone. Worlds of difference in computing power
and capabilities.

The H300 sounds like the wrong tool for the job. But what do I know.

YMMV.

--
Tom Jancauskas
Imedia
imediarecording.com
630.443.6858

[Scott Dorsey]

Keoki wrote:
On Sunday, September 2, 2012 3:16:54 AM UTC+11, Scott Dorsey wrote:

Are you using a temperature controlled iron and keeping it scrupulously
clean? A strong desk light, a magnifier and plenty of liquid flux will
be needed for this sort of work.

I'm using two soldering irons I *could* buy at RadioShack. ("Soldering? Wis=
h we could help you but no one of us 5 knows soldering".) Wait, let me reph=
rase this. I'm using *one* soldering iron whose head is wider than the rect=
angle to be soldered. Because the target is vertically surrounded with chip=
sockets, I must hold the iron nearly vertically to reach it, which obstruc=
ts the view. It's a 30W iron, temperature control means plugging it in. I a=
lso bought a second soldering iron with a finer tip, which died died on me =
in minutes, while I was still just tinning it. Now it's not heating up anym=
ore.

Get rid of this stuff before you destroy the board and find a local tech
who does rework. You may even have a corner TV repair shop if you are
lucky and these days TV sets are way worse than this stuff.

That "bomb blast" gunk on the second soldering point looks real awful, I wo=
nder if I should buy some sort of mobo cleaning solution. The desoldering b=
raid isn't removing it.

Braid is not really useful, you need a vacuum tool like a Soladpulit to remove
excess solder when you have that much of it in one place. The Soladpulit is
about $20 and it's as effective as the powered tools, just less convenient.

If you are determined to do it yourself, get a proper temperature-controlled
iron, then get a junk PC power supply and practice on it for a bit.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Keoki wrote:
Well, I'll be darned. I cleaned up the "bomb blast" rosin gunk of the secon=
d solder point real nice with Q-tips sprayed with control/contact cleaner &=
lube (difluoroethane), tried another solder attempt after a wipe & dry - a=
nd the solder still doesn't stick to the target pads. Instead it forms a fl=
oating ball on its rosin puddle, like a sunny side up egg.

Your iron is not hot enough and you may not be using enough flux. The way
it should work, the iron heats the pad and the pad melts the solder. You
aren't heating the pad enough so the solder is not melting.

If you continue doing this you will destroy the board from overheating it.
The key to this sort of work is to work hot and work fast so that the
heat has no time to propagate out of the area. If you use an underpowered
iron you will overheat the board and lift pads.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Don Pearce wrote:

Should have added - the colophony-free fluxes used in modern solder
are almost useless, particularly in conjunction with ROHS-compliant
lead-free solder. You would be better off hammering nails through to
fix it. If you can find a reel of 60/40 Sn/Pb solder from the 1970s,
you will find that this is all much simpler.

From the 1970s? Kester makes 63/37 and 60/40 normal rosin solders. It is
required by military and telecom standards. It is what people use for
normal rework today unless they absolutely HAVE to meet RoHS specs for some
reason. Do not, repeat, do not ever used the lead-free crap for rework,
and if reworking lead-free boards remove all the solder from the joint and
start at the beginning.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On 2 Sep 2012 14:06:59 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

Should have added - the colophony-free fluxes used in modern solder
are almost useless, particularly in conjunction with ROHS-compliant
lead-free solder. You would be better off hammering nails through to
fix it. If you can find a reel of 60/40 Sn/Pb solder from the 1970s,
you will find that this is all much simpler.

From the 1970s? Kester makes 63/37 and 60/40 normal rosin solders. It is
required by military and telecom standards. It is what people use for
normal rework today unless they absolutely HAVE to meet RoHS specs for some
reason. Do not, repeat, do not ever used the lead-free crap for rework,
and if reworking lead-free boards remove all the solder from the joint and
start at the beginning.
--scott

Didn't know you could still get it - that's good news. My big old reel
is going to see me out very comfortably.

d

[Keoki]

I saw the handy dandy $100+ settable soldering iron at Radio Shack myself, but the numbers are against it. The difference between a plain and a D/SE H3000 on Ebay are about $200, and I already spent $99 on the D/SE chips. So if I buy a super duper settable soldering rig for this one time, I won't be able recover its cost when I resell the D/SE if it still can't MIDI note pitch shift.

I did put an ad about soldering on Craigslist, haven't got any bites whatsoever. Soldering seems to be a vanishing skill, both TV repair places I knew are out of business. Let's hope scraping the solder resist is what the solution is. We'll know before the end of the day.

[Scott Dorsey]

Keoki wrote:
I saw the handy dandy $100+ settable soldering iron at Radio Shack myself, =
but the numbers are against it. The difference between a plain and a D/SE H=
3000 on Ebay are about $200, and I already spent $99 on the D/SE chips. So =
if I buy a super duper settable soldering rig for this one time, I won't be=
able recover its cost when I resell the D/SE if it still can't MIDI note p=
itch shift.

Buy a real temperature-controlled iron like the Weller rework station or
the baby Hakko. Stop buying overpriced garbage from Radio Shack.

The alternative is to damage the board and then be out a more money than
a proper station would cost you.

If you are not willing to put in the money for proper tools and not willing
to spend a couple afternoons practicing on junk board before working on
precision equipment, take it to a tech and have them do it.

i did put an ad about soldering on Craigslist, haven't got any bites whatso=
ever. Soldering seems to be a vanishing skill, both TV repair places I knew=
are out of business. Let's hope scraping the solder resist is what the sol=
ution is. We'll know before the end of the day.

Look in the yellow pages under AV repair. Who does power amp repair work
and console repair work where you are?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Keoki]

On Monday, September 3, 2012 10:48:39 AM UTC+11, Scott Dorsey wrote:

Look in the yellow pages under AV repair. Who does power amp repair work
and console repair work where you are?

The last time a bigger mixer conked out, I had to ship to to another island for repairs. Then UPS dropped it and broke it on the way back and never paid up. We used to have a synth repairman in Honolulu, but he seems to have gone back to the Mainland about a year or so ago, so whatever can't be fixed with a subassembly swap is fish tank raw material.

Anyhow, H3000 soldering. After scraping off the soldering booby trap (aka solder resist) I could solder all 3 remaining pad sets in under a minute indeed. Funny how no YouTube video warned about this solder resist thing.
http://www.southseascave.com/wp-cont...12/08/done.jpg

Now after plopping the upgrade chips in, the OS reset still didn't give me a functioning D/SE. Either the first spot is a cold solder, or I didn't sever an existing connection. (The upgrade blurb harps extensively how this is the most common mistake.)

I noticed how under the green booby trap layer, there is a line going between two pads that must stay unconnected according to the upgrade blurb. So I started to remove the green goo to sever that line underneath, but wherever the goo is off I'm uncovering metal. So the thin line I aimed to sever grew into a whole metal rectangle. Hmm?

[Keoki]

2 hours later...
I redid the first two solder joints and severed the connection with an X-Acto where the instructions specified it.

Same behavior, although the LED is brighter. OK, this box will be a hobby project, then.

[Scott Dorsey]

Keoki wrote:
On Monday, September 3, 2012 10:48:39 AM UTC+11, Scott Dorsey wrote:

Look in the yellow pages under AV repair. Who does power amp repair work
and console repair work where you are?

The last time a bigger mixer conked out, I had to ship to to another island=
for repairs. Then UPS dropped it and broke it on the way back and never pa=
id up. We used to have a synth repairman in Honolulu, but he seems to have =
gone back to the Mainland about a year or so ago, so whatever can't be fixe=
d with a subassembly swap is fish tank raw material.

Is Precision Electronics on King St. still in business? Call them up and
ask them who they'd recommend for small board rework. They used to be a
Weller and Pace dealer.

Anyhow, H3000 soldering. After scraping off the soldering booby trap (aka s=
older resist) I could solder all 3 remaining pad sets in under a minute ind=
eed. Funny how no YouTube video warned about this solder resist thing.
http://www.southseascave.com/wp-cont...12/08/done.jpg

Excellent! Most boards are made with the resist already masked off of any
place where you're going to be soldering so it may normally not be an issue.

now after plopping the upgrade chips in, the OS reset still didn't give me =
a functioning D/SE. Either the first spot is a cold solder, or I didn't sev=
er an existing connection. (The upgrade blurb harps extensively how this is=
the most common mistake.)=20

Could be. Check with the ohmmeter and see.

I noticed how under the green booby trap layer, there is a line going betwe=
en two pads that must stay unconnected according to the upgrade blurb. So I=
started to remove the green goo to sever that line underneath, but whereve=
r the goo is off I'm uncovering metal. So the thin line I aimed to sever gr=
ew into a whole metal rectangle. Hmm?

Are you sure it's the same pad?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."