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WindsorFox WindsorFox is offline
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In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse
should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts??
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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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WindsorFox wrote:

In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse
should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts??


First off you don't have 100W or 200W tweeters so the above question is moot.

Graham


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"WindsorFox" wrote in message
...
In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse
should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts??


If I may assume what you meant and be allowed to SWAG an answer, then lets
take a theoretical 100w RMS amplifier and an 4ohm speaker. The sq rt of
Watts/ohms(R) will give you the current (I). Thus, sq rt of 25 =5a (fuse).
This doesn't take into account instantaneous peaks of the amp. There is a
lot of assumption in what I just stated but perhaps it can be a start to a
thread. You will get a more accurate answer when you restate your question.
Of course you will have to know the impedance (Z), not the coil's resistance
(R) of your tweeter. BTW: what kind of tweeter do you have?

west


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"WindsorFox" wrote in message


In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what
size fuse should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at
200 watts??


Tweeters - start with one amp quick blow fuses, and increase in logical
steps if they blow too often.


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WindsorFox WindsorFox is offline
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Eeyore wrote:

WindsorFox wrote:

In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse
should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts??


First off you don't have 100W or 200W tweeters so the above question is moot.

Graham



You are dead wrong. So next time when *I* ask a question, please
stick to the facts presented in my post.
Than you and HAND.


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Arny Krueger wrote:
"WindsorFox" wrote in message


In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what
size fuse should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at
200 watts??


Tweeters - start with one amp quick blow fuses, and increase in logical
steps if they blow too often.



Pretty much the answer I was hoping for, I've had someone locally
say the same thing but he suggested starting as 1/2 amp.

Thanks
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WindsorFox WindsorFox is offline
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west wrote:
"WindsorFox" wrote in message
...
In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse
should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts??


If I may assume what you meant and be allowed to SWAG an answer, then lets
take a theoretical 100w RMS amplifier and an 4ohm speaker. The sq rt of
Watts/ohms(R) will give you the current (I). Thus, sq rt of 25 =5a (fuse).
This doesn't take into account instantaneous peaks of the amp. There is a
lot of assumption in what I just stated but perhaps it can be a start to a
thread. You will get a more accurate answer when you restate your question.
Of course you will have to know the impedance (Z), not the coil's resistance
(R) of your tweeter. BTW: what kind of tweeter do you have?

west




The one in question is 5.2 ohms 110 watts max. It is a Morel MDT-12.
I said 100 watts because of it, though the actual Mirage tweeters are
180 watts peak.
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WindsorFox wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
WindsorFox wrote:

In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse
should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts??


First off you don't have 100W or 200W tweeters so the above question is moot.


You are dead wrong.


No.

I'm dead right.

I suggest you go learn something about tweeter power handling since you clearly
know ZERO about it at present but are equally clearly happy to flaunt your
ignorance.

PLONK.

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WindsorFox wrote:

The one in question is 5.2 ohms 110 watts max. It is a Morel MDT-12.
I said 100 watts because of it, though the actual Mirage tweeters are
180 watts peak.


Yeah sure they are !

Graham


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On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:17:20 -0500, WindsorFox
wrote:

The one in question is 5.2 ohms 110 watts max. It is a Morel MDT-12.
I said 100 watts because of it, though the actual Mirage tweeters are
180 watts peak.


All (well, 99+%) of the power feeding a tweeter is lost as heat.
No good tweeter can dissipate such huge amounts of power and
survive unscathed; they're designed to do better things, like
moving at 20000 times per second. Different gig.

If you don't believe me, try feeding one (don't waste both,
and buy a spare right now) with, say, 15 watts for a minute.
Fuses are no substitute for good sense.

All good fortune,

Chris Hornbeck
"Second star to the right,
Then straight on 'til morning."


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"WindsorFox"

The one in question is 5.2 ohms 110 watts max. It is a Morel MDT-12. I
said 100 watts because of it, though the actual Mirage tweeters are 180
watts peak.



** ******** !!

http://www.morelhifi.com/products/pdf/mdt%2012.pdf

That toy tweeter cannot handle more than about 15 watts of continuous power.

The 80 watt figure the maker gives is " DIN " = system power, not tweeter
power dissipation.

Plus - NEVER put any fuse ( or PTC protection device) in series with a
tweeter or the amp may well become damaged if the fuse blows.

The protection device **MUST ** go in series with the input to the crossover
filter.

Most passive high pass filters become virtual *short circuits* at the
crossover frequency if there is no load on them PLUS the output voltage is
boosted many times over the input level.



......... Phil





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WindsorFox wrote:

In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse
should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts??



Try 0.5A fast blow types if the F range is 3kHz and above.

Take up the music levels to just above your normal desired levels.
If 0.5A blow, try 1.0 amp.
If these don't blow, then its all you should use.
Tweeters are renowned for blowing in adnace of any other drivers.
All drivers should have their own fuse, and bass might have
3amp types, midranges 3amp, less is better if you can get away with it.

If the amp is solid state, and a fault causes dc to appear across
speaker,
a fuse should blow, but it won't if the dc offset isn't the full PS rail
supply voltage.
So active protection is a MUST,
Similarly, tweeters are liable to blow from a clipped wave if sustained,
but an amp may only be clipping for a small % of the time, so the
excess HF energy created in the clipping isn't enough continuously to
blow a fuse, but it easily
heats the tweeter voice coil which can expire, hence my recommendation
for
what seems to be a very low value tweeter fuse.

The occasional nuisance blowing of speaker fuses will be cheaper than
driver replacements.

Patrick Turner.
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Phil Allison wrote:

"WindsorFox"

The one in question is 5.2 ohms 110 watts max. It is a Morel MDT-12. I
said 100 watts because of it, though the actual Mirage tweeters are 180
watts peak.


** ******** !!

http://www.morelhifi.com/products/pdf/mdt%2012.pdf

That toy tweeter cannot handle more than about 15 watts of continuous power.

The 80 watt figure the maker gives is " DIN " = system power, not tweeter
power dissipation.

Plus - NEVER put any fuse ( or PTC protection device) in series with a
tweeter or the amp may well become damaged if the fuse blows.

The protection device **MUST ** go in series with the input to the crossover
filter.

Most passive high pass filters become virtual *short circuits* at the
crossover frequency if there is no load on them PLUS the output voltage is
boosted many times over the input level.

........ Phil



Phil is correct here and some amps could be be damaged if the tweeter is
disconnected if a fuse in series with it blows.
I have had to repair the damage done with over driven amps at
end of school year parties where the speakers have fried, but amp fuses
didn't blow,
then the crossovers melted, and finally the amp thermalled out with lots
of fused
output and driver bjts. The amp fuses only blew after major heat damage
had occurred.
Fuses to each driver ahead of crossovers were not fitted, and not even
polyswitches.
But I have seen exploded polyswitches, so apart from active
protection which shuts down the amp then fuses can if chosen well, help
stop the smoke.


If there is a C&L second order crossover filter then this becomes a low
impedance resonant LC circuit
of low Z at the Xover F without being loaded by the the tweeter if a
fuse blows.

To be able to place a safety fuse of LOW AMP VALUE in series with a
tweeter where there is
an L&C filter, the fuse should be ahead of the C&L filter.

If there is only a C in series with the tweeter, the fuse should still
be ahead of the C.



The lowest value fuse should be used without causing nuisance blows at
normal levels.

Continuous power handling by tweeters is often no more than 10% of the
rated continuous input power so if it says 100W on the box, assume the
tweeter could take no more tha 10 watts.

A tweeter of 5.2ohms with 10 watts can take only 7.2Vrms applied, or
1.38 amps,rms,
so a 0.5A fuse could be tried first. If that blows at levels desired,
use 1A,
and if that blows, don't ever assume that a 1.5A will stop a tweeter
from frying itself to death.

Patrick Turner.
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Eeyore wrote:

WindsorFox wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
WindsorFox wrote:

In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse
should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts??
First off you don't have 100W or 200W tweeters so the above question is moot.

You are dead wrong.


No.

I'm dead right.

I suggest you go learn something about tweeter power handling since you clearly
know ZERO about it at present but are equally clearly happy to flaunt your
ignorance.



Last time, you do not have a stinking clue what you are talking
about. Why don't you go look up some specifications for your self, of
course if you can't look up a SoundBlaster card by the model number I
certainly shouldn't expect you to look up tweeter specs. The tweeter I
have in my hand right now clearly states 80 watts RMS 110 watt RMS max
and I trust Morel's opinion on the power capability of the tweeter over
yours. You are quite entitled to your opinion on whom is and is not
ignorant, but the facts are quite different.
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On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 23:27:10 -0500, WindsorFox
wrote:

Last time, you do not have a stinking clue what you are talking
about. Why don't you go look up some specifications for your self, of
course if you can't look up a SoundBlaster card by the model number I
certainly shouldn't expect you to look up tweeter specs. The tweeter I
have in my hand right now clearly states 80 watts RMS 110 watt RMS max
and I trust Morel's opinion on the power capability of the tweeter over
yours. You are quite entitled to your opinion on whom is and is not
ignorant, but the facts are quite different.


Good luck. You'll obviously need it.

Chris Hornbeck
"Second star to the right,
Then straight on 'til morning."


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Phil Allison wrote:
"WindsorFox"
The one in question is 5.2 ohms 110 watts max. It is a Morel MDT-12. I
said 100 watts because of it, though the actual Mirage tweeters are 180
watts peak.



** ******** !!

http://www.morelhifi.com/products/pdf/mdt%2012.pdf

That toy tweeter cannot handle more than about 15 watts of continuous power.



That and it's HiVi twin have been rated very highly and my personal
experience puts it very high as well. It it not as crisp as the original
M series, but costs less, is available and was able to be mounted in
such a way as to be almost un-noticed. It works very well in the place.
What would you suggest that I should have used?
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"Windsor ****wit Fox"


I suggest you go learn something about tweeter power handling since you
clearly
know ZERO about it at present but are equally clearly happy to flaunt
your
ignorance.



Last time, you do not have a stinking clue what you are talking about.
Why don't you go look up some specifications for your self, of course if
you can't look up a SoundBlaster card by the model number I certainly
shouldn't expect you to look up tweeter specs. The tweeter I have in my
hand right now clearly states 80 watts RMS 110 watt RMS max and I trust
Morel's opinion on the power capability of the tweeter over yours.



** The spec say no such thing - YOU ****ING IDIOT !!

It says: " Nominal Power Handling DIN P 80 W "

Got a clue what DIN means ???

The magnet is a tiny 44mm dia x 16 mm thick.

If asked to dissipate 80 watts rms for more than few seconds, the whole damn
thing would catch on fire.




........ Phil





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"Windsor ****wit Fox"



** READ what has been said to you - ****WIT !!


Then **** OFF !!



......... Phil


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Patrick Turner wrote:

WindsorFox wrote:
In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse
should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts??



Try 0.5A fast blow types if the F range is 3kHz and above.

Take up the music levels to just above your normal desired levels.
If 0.5A blow, try 1.0 amp.
If these don't blow, then its all you should use.
Tweeters are renowned for blowing in adnace of any other drivers.
All drivers should have their own fuse, and bass might have
3amp types, midranges 3amp, less is better if you can get away with it.

If the amp is solid state, and a fault causes dc to appear across
speaker,
a fuse should blow, but it won't if the dc offset isn't the full PS rail
supply voltage.
So active protection is a MUST,
Similarly, tweeters are liable to blow from a clipped wave if sustained,
but an amp may only be clipping for a small % of the time, so the
excess HF energy created in the clipping isn't enough continuously to
blow a fuse, but it easily
heats the tweeter voice coil which can expire, hence my recommendation
for
what seems to be a very low value tweeter fuse.

The occasional nuisance blowing of speaker fuses will be cheaper than
driver replacements.

Patrick Turner.




I don't have a problem with mids or woofers and it's quite possible
it was a previous owner that did the damage since they are rear facing
tweeters.
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WindsorFox wrote:

The tweeter I have in my hand right now clearly states 80 watts RMS


Bwahahahahahahaha !

I have a *REAL* 80W rms compression driver not far away.

I'll take a scan of it and post it on a.b.s.e so you can see how *utterly retarded*
your thinking is.

Graham



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WindsorFox wrote:

they are rear facing tweeters.


Shreeks of laughter !

Graham


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Phil Allison wrote:


** The spec say no such thing - YOU ****ING IDIOT !!


After reading the page: http://members.iinet.com.au/~rutlidge/alanindex.html
your above rage and abuse are quite expected. That anyone would take
anything you say very seriously should be laughable.

HAND
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WindsorFox wrote:

After reading the page: http://members.iinet.com.au/~rutlidge/alanindex.html


Bwahahahahahahahahahaha !

Grow Up !

Graham

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Phil Allison wrote:



** READ what has been said to you - ****WIT !!


Then **** OFF !!



........ Phil



My my, the others on Usenet are correct. You have quite an anger
management issue don't you.
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"Windsor ****wit Fox"



** READ what has been said to you - ****WIT !!

Then **** OFF !!

You ASD ****ed MORON !!




......... Phil





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Patrick Turner wrote:


Phil is correct here and some amps could be be damaged if the tweeter is
disconnected if a fuse in series with it blows.
I have had to repair the damage done with over driven amps at
end of school year parties where the speakers have fried, but amp fuses
didn't blow,
then the crossovers melted, and finally the amp thermalled out with lots
of fused
output and driver bjts. The amp fuses only blew after major heat damage
had occurred.
Fuses to each driver ahead of crossovers were not fitted, and not even
polyswitches.
But I have seen exploded polyswitches, so apart from active
protection which shuts down the amp then fuses can if chosen well, help
stop the smoke.


Okay, I don't plan on over driving any amps, I have a Carver M 1.5t
and a Bryston 4B and they stay well below clipping. I am most worried
about as someone mentioned earlier sudden spikes and such and I know
distortion is the enemy more than power and the Mirage M1s are
recommended for an amp of 100 to 500 watts. So I may be overly worried
about a ghost here since neither amp should cause damage if kept below
the clip point and used with certain reason. And as I said the damage
could have been done by the former owner. I'm just grasping at trying to
keep from blowing what is now a non existent component.



If there is a C&L second order crossover filter then this becomes a low
impedance resonant LC circuit
of low Z at the Xover F without being loaded by the the tweeter if a
fuse blows.

To be able to place a safety fuse of LOW AMP VALUE in series with a
tweeter where there is
an L&C filter, the fuse should be ahead of the C&L filter.

If there is only a C in series with the tweeter, the fuse should still
be ahead of the C.


Well, IDK WTF is in there. I can dig in and see the crossover in the
M7si speakers by removing the front woofer, but not in the M1 speakers.
There are wooden baffles inside the cabinet that keep you from seeing
them. Now both the M1 and M7si are wired to be biamplified and they have
jumper wires for using a single amp. The fuse could be placed at that
point, but I'm sure there would be a consequence of a fuse that would
protect the tweeter would be too small and blow too easily when put in
front of both midranges and tweeters. I should also mention that on the
M1 there is two of everything, high, mid and low.



The lowest value fuse should be used without causing nuisance blows at
normal levels.

Continuous power handling by tweeters is often no more than 10% of the
rated continuous input power so if it says 100W on the box, assume the
tweeter could take no more tha 10 watts.

A tweeter of 5.2ohms with 10 watts can take only 7.2Vrms applied, or
1.38 amps,rms,
so a 0.5A fuse could be tried first. If that blows at levels desired,
use 1A,
and if that blows, don't ever assume that a 1.5A will stop a tweeter
from frying itself to death.

Patrick Turner.


This is what I had exactly planned, BUTT... what the plan was and
recommended by a number of people to put it in line at the tweeter. But
if this has a high chance of causing damage to one of these two amps
without blowing the fuse in the amp, I'm not so sure about doing it.
Hell the M 1.5t doesn't even have speaker fuses but that amp is a bit
different. But like I said when said fuse blows the amp is not going to
be in an "abused" state, it may be at clip point but just barely.

Another point on previous abuse. The M1 is an extremely inefficient
speaker. I've run the Carver amp on Altecs, Electro Voices, Wharfdales,
University, JBL, B&W and Snell and the previous owner on Thiels, and Von
Schweikert's and it is incredibly hard to clip that amp, especially at 4
ohms. On the M1s I can "exhaust the headroom" in an instant, so I can
see how a previous owner could have easily knocked out a tweeter. More
than once....
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Patrick Turner wrote:
The amp fuses only blew after major heat damage
had occurred.
Fuses to each driver ahead of crossovers were not fitted, and not even
polyswitches.
But I have seen exploded polyswitches, so apart from active
protection which shuts down the amp then fuses can if chosen well, help
stop the smoke.


This prodded another thought. The Carver has some type of fangled
protection circuit, I've seen them on pro audio racks get dead shorted,
as in the wires twisted together and the only thing that happens other
than the silence is the red protect LED lights. But the Bryston has two
speaker fuses, 3AG and different amperage depending on voltage. Now I've
only had this amp a couple of weeks and havn't gone a reading, but I
assume that means input/line voltage. Would it be advantageous to use a
slightly (1/2A) lower rated fuse, or possibly use a fast blow rather
than slow blow? I don't want to start a tin ear war but are there
reasons for using a slow blow fuse other than changing more often or
"The tinny, poor sound stage" that you get from a fast blow fuse?

BTW, I'm an audiophile; a listener and a tweaker not an engineer. So
thanks for the good information without the abuse. :-P
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Eeyore wrote:

WindsorFox wrote:

After reading the page: http://members.iinet.com.au/~rutlidge/alanindex.html


Bwahahahahahahahahahaha !

Grow Up !

Graham


Right. Didn't you type "plonk" some time back? In which case you
should not be able to see my posts.
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WindsorFox wrote:

"The tinny, poor sound stage" that you get from a fast blow fuse?


Oh Good Lord !

Graham

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"WindsorFox" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"WindsorFox" wrote in message


In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what
size fuse should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at
200 watts??


Tweeters - start with one amp quick blow fuses, and
increase in logical steps if they blow too often.



Pretty much the answer I was hoping for, I've had
someone locally say the same thing but he suggested
starting as 1/2 amp.


I was concerned with the DC resistance of the fuse. A 0.5 amp fuse has a DCR
of about 0.6 ohms, while a 1 amp fuse has a DCR of about 0.2 ohms.




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"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


WindsorFox wrote:

"The tinny, poor sound stage" that you get from a fast blow fuse?


Oh Good Lord !

Graham


What's wrong with you Graham? There have been a plethera of double blind
studies that show slow-blow fuses produce a wider but not deeper sound
stage.

west


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"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Windsor ****wit Fox"



** READ what has been said to you - ****WIT !!

Then **** OFF !!

You ASD ****ed MORON !!


You know ... I think we might all miss Phil if he ever went away.

west

........ Phil





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WindsorFox said:


Tweeters - start with one amp quick blow fuses, and increase in logical
steps if they blow too often.



Pretty much the answer I was hoping for, I've had someone locally
say the same thing but he suggested starting as 1/2 amp.



FWIW, the tweeter fuses in my Maggies are 1.5 amps.
Never had one blowing up on me, but then the biggest amp they've seen
is a Krell KSA80.

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -
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west wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


WindsorFox wrote:

"The tinny, poor sound stage" that you get from a fast blow fuse?


Oh Good Lord !

Graham


What's wrong with you Graham? There have been a plethera of double blind
studies that show slow-blow fuses produce a wider but not deeper sound
stage.

west


With all due respect to Windsor and others, IMHO, Phil is right on the
issue
and I have echoed his concerns and solutions offered.

Phil can be difficult at times, and that's never going to change.

But if you want to use delicate tweeters at high system power levels,
then you invite tweeter failure without very adequate fusing to suit
the driver concerned.
I have fused a few tweeters myself, despite care taken.

Don't say you have not been warned.

Distortion caused by the presence of fuses is real, but usually a lot
lower
than distortions elsewhere in the system.

I simply never ever intentionally run a system at a level that will
challenge a tweeter's life.


If the thread degenerates into a trade of insults, you only have
yourselves to blame.

Patrick Turner.
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WindsorFox WindsorFox is offline
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Default **** OFF TROLL IDIOT

west wrote:
"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...
"Windsor ****wit Fox"



** READ what has been said to you - ****WIT !!

Then **** OFF !!

You ASD ****ed MORON !!


You know ... I think we might all miss Phil if he ever went away.

west
........ Phil







All groups need their ko0ks, it's just the audio groups seem to
have more than their fair share.

--
"Yes, it is a good thing you are handy, as
you clearly suck at being smart." - Herb


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WindsorFox WindsorFox is offline
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Default Protection of investment

west wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote in message
...

WindsorFox wrote:

"The tinny, poor sound stage" that you get from a fast blow fuse?

Oh Good Lord !

Graham


What's wrong with you Graham? There have been a plethera of double blind
studies that show slow-blow fuses produce a wider but not deeper sound
stage.


Of course and if he can not tell what amperage rating the fuse is
in an amplifier just by listening to it, then he may as well just go
with a Bose system. I've hear the Bose Wave can replace an entire
bookcase filled with stereo equipment....



--
"Yes, it is a good thing you are handy, as
you clearly suck at being smart." - Herb
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WindsorFox WindsorFox is offline
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Default Protection of investment

Patrick Turner wrote:

west wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote in message
...

WindsorFox wrote:

"The tinny, poor sound stage" that you get from a fast blow fuse?
Oh Good Lord !

Graham

What's wrong with you Graham? There have been a plethera of double blind
studies that show slow-blow fuses produce a wider but not deeper sound
stage.

west


With all due respect to Windsor and others, IMHO, Phil is right on the
issue
and I have echoed his concerns and solutions offered.

Phil can be difficult at times, and that's never going to change.

But if you want to use delicate tweeters at high system power levels,
then you invite tweeter failure without very adequate fusing to suit
the driver concerned.
I have fused a few tweeters myself, despite care taken.

Don't say you have not been warned.


The OE tweeters are not particularly delicate. They have a heavy 3"
magnet and 3/4" ferro fluid cooled coil


--
"Yes, it is a good thing you are handy, as
you clearly suck at being smart." - Herb
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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Posts: 8,474
Default Protection of investment



west wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
WindsorFox wrote:

"The tinny, poor sound stage" that you get from a fast blow fuse?


Oh Good Lord !



What's wrong with you Graham?


Absolutely nothing at all.


There have been a plethera of double blind studies


Cite ?


that show slow-blow fuses produce a wider but not deeper sound stage.


And some ppl also think gold plated mains lead change the sound too !

Graham

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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Default Protection of investment



Patrick Turner wrote:

But if you want to use delicate tweeters at high system power levels,
then you invite tweeter failure without very adequate fusing to suit
the driver concerned.


This is very true and a fuse will also add compression due to thermally created
resistance increase.

The best solution here is a relay based tweeter protector.

Graham

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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Default **** OFF TROLL IDIOT



WindsorFox wrote:

All groups need their ko0ks, it's just the audio groups seem to
have more than their fair share.


You're certainly about as k00ky as they come !

Graham

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