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Ultimate system
In a nutshell, Let Your Ears Decide and in the case of the Atma-Sphere
together with the SoundLAB I am certain you would be in Musical Heaven. Why not find out by sending an e mail to the Exclusive Distributors at uniquesoundvision@REMOVE THIShotmail.com John "George Orwell" wrote in message ... Ultimate system aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes EXECUTIVE SUMMARY FOR THOSE WITH LIVES AND FRIENDS: More sour crap from that failed bricklayer and failed electrical repairman and failed wannabe amp manufacturer, Patrick Turner, best summed up in his own McCarthyite words: What is it about the atma-sphere that we aint being told? Whatever cleverer and harder-working people in general do not tell congenital rip-off merchants like you, Turner. You might show a successful and clever designer, whose feet an insolent lout like you are not fit to lick, the respect of capitalizing the name of his product. HERE IS THE FULL STORY IF YOU HAVE THE TIME AND THE INCLINATION: Here we go again. Someone suggests a system of world-class repute, including an innovative amplifier design with plaudits from around the world, but to the turneroid nobody it is another opportunity to abuse a real amp designer. To put the turneroid in perspective, he claims in his best year to have sold three amplifiers but we have never heard or seen an actual owner, just a superannuated whore who decided to shop elsewhere. Yo, knucklehead, you are talking about man who actually designs his own amps and sells them to a substantial, adoring public, a man who doesnt just make dull, unsalable copies of obsolete designs like you do. The Atma-Spheres have two Golden Ear Awards and glowing reviews from reputable journals for a reason. Where are Turnip Audios awards? Where can we even read an independent review of one of your amps? An independent review, incidentally, is not your worthless turneroid self-praise, of which we have now had three grinding years too many. Incidentally, if you want to know how much feedback, you write politely to the designer and, if you are legitimate, recognized person, he replies as politely and tells you. The one thing you do NOT do is cast dark aspersions on the net, like some Senator McCarthy conducting a witch hunt. He uses NFB! They use NFB! Just as if you never use negative feedback, the only way you can achieve those dim numbers you brag about so grindingly. Or perhaps you, Patrick Turner, just dont understand how the feedback is arranged in the designs you copy. (Ask here on RAT. There are plenty of NFB experts who will be delighted to talk your ear off about it. I wont even stay in the thread to light up your ignorance. I rarely have need of NFB, see? My amps work very well, thank you, with Zero Negative Feedback.) Next up, moron, if OTL designs that actually work, and these that you presume so insolently to criticize do work exceedingly well, are so easy to design, let us see yours in the flesh, offered up to testing by someone independent. I bet we never will see a turneroid OTL, because as usual Turner talks through the back of his neck, from a position of total ignorance, wittering on merely as a smokescreen to advertise his wretched vapourware. Christ, he doesnt even know how depressingly cheap 6AS7 are. What a dumbo. Of course it is possible, and even likely, that one can extract more detail quote because there are no output transformers unquote. No matter how well a transformer is made, and regardless of yet more grindingly boring advertising for Turner Audios vapourware transformers, there is no such thing as a transformer with the characteristics of air. All that extra wire and iron has a characteristic and it will never be truly transparent. The reason you witter on irrelevantly about transformers in a thread about OTL, Turner, is that to a man whose only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Go get an imagination transplant. Much more sour crap from a failed bricklayer and failed electrical repairman and failed wannabe amp manufacturer, best summed up in his own McCarthyite words: What is it about the atma-sphere that we aint being told? Whatever cleverer and harder-working people in general do not tell congenital rip-off merchants like you, Turner. You might show a successful and clever designer, whose feet an insolent lout like you are not fit to lick, the respect of capitalizing the name of his product. Andre Jute Patrick Turner wrote john wrote: Hi Fi is but a word, if you mean that you want to listen to music and be swept away by the sheer emotion of actually imagining you are there, ie, the speakers dissappear and your hair curls up on the back of your neck then the following are simply the best in the world. SoundLAB Ultimate Full Range Electrostatic Speakers. http://www.soundlab-speakers.com Atma-Sphere MP-1 Pre amplifier with MA-2 power Amplifier http://www.atma-sphere.com/index.html John I wont argue the case about the Soundlab speakers They would want to be good at a retail Oz price of around AUD $12,000. The Atma-sphere amps quote the following for their MA-2 amp, and I enclose my comments :- Recipient of two Golden Ear Awards the MA-2, simply put, is the finest amplifier made anywhere in the world at any price. Ha!, they all say that.... The MA-2 is now updated to the rev.3 level with an improved gain stage with even wider bandwidth and lower distortion then before. Switchable feedback has been added as well. But how much feedback? The audio purist has craved the design features of this amplifier since the beginning of HiFi. These features are seen here together for the first time. The MA-2 Mk. II.3 is the most powerful production OTL amplifier available, with vastly enhanced ability to drive difficult loads. The MA-2 is still 15 years ahead of the competition! OTL designs are easy to make, since there is no OPT. One uses lots of tubes instead of the OPT. Very few makers take this path, because the cost of tubes replacements is very high, and OTL have a tendency to wear out tubes early if they are pushed anywhere near the rated maximum power levels. Not many sustain continuus sine wave power at the rated power. The improvement the MA-2 offers is total. The amplifier is faster then transistor designs, yet involving. ???? Probably fast enough, which is all you want, ie, good F response and low phase shift, typical of most good amps. It has bass impact other tube amps lack, plumbing the low frequencies that other amps seem unaware of. Eh? which "other"tube amps? Yet it is smooth, detailed and tuneful, allowing the listener the ability to play the amplifier day in and day out without noticable artifact, unlike many amplifiers in the recent press! The improvement the MA-2 offers is obvious on any system in 5 seconds flat. It is not subtle. The MA-2 MkII.3 is a direct approach the balanced design involving music and electronics. Designed for music, not sine waves, the MA-2 MkII.3 tracks a dynamic waveform faster than any other amplifier known in the world. It extracts more detail than designs that use transformers, transistors and single-ended (asymmetrical) circuits: music is presented intact. Unfortunately, "extracting more detail" because there are no output transformers is BS. Just sales talk. Its easy to make an OPT which has a full power bandwidth from 10 Hz to 300 kHz, -3 dB points, with a BW from 2Hz to 300 kHz away from full power, which is rarely used. FEATURES All triode Class-A operation The amp has 20 x 6AS7 tubes per 1/2 of the PP circuit. Each 6AS7 is capable of a class A dissipation of about 20 watts, from which 15 class A efficiency is possible, if the load RL was 28 ohms, and the class A power output would be 60 watts. Output TransformerLess (OTL) operation Balanced Differential Design Switchable input impedance Defeatable negative feedback Handcrafted point to point wired- no circuit boards! Mono construction Easily monostrapped for more power Standby switch for long output tube life Easy to live with - tube matching not required Simple, reliable circuit - one stage of gain XLR and RCA input connectors Precision grade components used throughout Patented Circlotronic output circuit Dual AC power circuits for each chassis Custom Teflon coupling capacitors Caddock precision resistors standard "Star" ground circuit Patented black wrinkletex epoxy coat finish Five-year warranty - One year on tubes SPECIFICATIONS 220 watts/channel into 4, 8 or 16 ohm load It would seem impossible that 220w of class A power could ever be delivered to 4 ohms. This is 30vrms of output voltage, which means the peak current in the load is 10.5 amps. Therefore if there are 10 output tubes per 1/2 of the PP circuit,, the current in each tube is 1.05 amps per tube, which is 525 mA per 1/2 triode section, which is about 5 times the idle current for class A. Thus it has to be said that this amp works mainly as a class B amplifier, since the load is very poorly matched to the tubes. Maybe only 20 watts of class A power is available, depending on what bias point has been chosen. Power bandwidth: 2 Hz - 85 kHz within 1/2 db (open loop) Frequency response (1 watt, open loop): l Hz - 100 kHz within 3 dB IM Distortion: less then .05 at full power THD: less then 1 These thd/imd figures seem like ludicrous claims. Under exactly what conditions? RDH4 says that where the ratio of LF signal to HF signal used for an imd test is 4:1, so that we have say 4 volts of 80 Hz plus 1 volt of 5 kHz within the test signal, then when thd of the LF signal is 1, the imd of the HF signal is several times the thd of the LF signal. All the tests I have done with PP amps confirm what thre RDH4 says. Square Wave Tilt: unmeasureable Feedback:0-2 db switchable I cannot see how 2dB of FB, which is almost SFA, could do very much at all to reduce thd/imd, or Ro. Phase shift: less than 1 degree @ 20 kHz Power supply storage: 1100 Joules/chassis Output section risetime: 600 V/micro-second Output Impedance: ~1.75 Ohms (open loop) The Ra of 10 paralleled 6AS7 is 280/20 = 14 ohms. Since the U of the 6AS7 is only 2, the Ra with follower is 5 ohms, and since the load in a circlotron is slung between two lots of 10 tubes in CF, the Ro = 2 x 5 ohms = 10 ohms, so the damping factor would be very poor. What is it about the atma-sphere that we aint being told? How is it possible that they get Ro = 1.75 ohms, without any FB? Power consumption: 800 watts/chassis Tube complement: 20 6AS7 output tubes and 6 6SN7 driver tubes. Dimensions: 28" l x 17" w x 10" h Weight: 103 lbs./chassis The weight of a chassis is 46 kg I guess each chassis has a decent power transformer. In order to get 220 watts in pure class A from triodes, one could do better to use KT88 strapped as triodes in PP, and the plate efficiency can be as high as 30, and thus 20 x KT88 could achieve this, BUT AN OUTPUT TRANSFORMER IS NECESSARY. Each tube could be set up to dissipate 36 watts, and you get an idle power consumption of 720 watts, from which 216 are class A watts into a load of around 700 ohms anode to anode, so an OPT with turn ration of 10 to 1 would be about right, and it would be large, but easy to wind, since wire size would be over 0.6 mm dia. The Ro of such an amp will be 2 ohms, without any loop FB. Alternatively, if we wanted 100 watts of class A power into 5 ohms, with a reserve ability up to 250 watts class AB, with a maximum of 300 watts AB into 3 ohms, then we could achieve this with 12 x KT88 working lazily in UL, or CFB ( acoustical ) Using 9 dB of CFB in the OPT, the Ro is lower than triode. There are quite a few designs of high power tube amps using multiple output tubes which will outperform the Atma-sphere, Jadis, ARC, etc, and the ones I made, pictured at http://www.turneraudio.com.au/htmlwe...00monobloc.htm I provide a FULL set of data is available, with few if any spurious claims, and I include the schematics. The initial version of the design used an ultralinear output stage, but is now being upgraded to utilise 20 of primary winding CFB from the OPT, since it has been found this sounds the best. All aspects of such amps compete favourably with the OTL. The ones I built weigh 50 Kg per channel, with 1/2 the weight in the PS, and 1/2 in the amp chassis. Power consumption is 480 watts per channel, or just over 1/2 the power quoted for the OTL. Into 8 ohms, my amps have a total of 16 dB of FB, 0.12 thd at 220 watts class AB with well over 100 watts of class A. At a typical listening level of 10 watts into speakers of very poor sensitivity, thd is less than 0.05, with correspondingly low imd. The OPT windings can be rearranged to provide 250+ watts into 2.2 ohms, and a large range of other well matched loads, something impossible with OTL. Patrick Turner. |
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"George Orwell" HERE IS THE FULL STORY IF YOU HAVE THE TIME AND THE INCLINATION: Here we go again. Someone suggests a system of world-class repute, including an innovative amplifier design with plaudits from around the world, but to the turneroid nobody it is another opportunity to abuse a real amp designer. To put the turneroid in perspective, he claims in his best year to have sold three amplifiers but we have never heard or seen an actual owner, just a superannuated whore who decided to shop elsewhere. Yo, knucklehead, you are talking about man who actually designs his own amps and sells them to a substantial, adoring public, a man who doesnt just make dull, unsaleable copies of obsolete designs like you do. The Atma-Spheres have two Golden Ear Awards and glowing reviews from reputable journals for a reason. Where are Turnip Audios awards? Where can we even read an independent review of one of your amps? An independent review, incidentally, is not your worthless turneroid self-praise, of which we have now had three grinding years too many. Incidentally, if you want to know how much feedback, you write politely to the designer and, if you are legitimate, recognized person, he replies as politely and tells you. The one thing you do NOT do is cast dark aspersions on the net, like some Senator McCarthy conducting a witch hunt. He uses NFB! They use NFB! Just as if you never use negative feedback, the only way you can achieve those dim numbers you brag about so grindingly. Or perhaps you, Patrick Turner, just dont understand how the feedback is arranged in the designs you copy. (Ask here on RAT. There are plenty of NFB experts who will be delighted to talk your ear off about it. I wont even stay in the thread to light up your ignorance. I rarely have need of NFB, see? My amps work very well, thank you, with Zero Negative Feedback.) Next up, moron, if OTL designs that actually work, and these that you presume so insolently to criticize do work exceedingly well, are so easy to design, let us see yours in the flesh, offered up to testing by someone independent. I bet we never will see a turneroid OTL, because as usual Turner talks through the back of his neck, from a position of total ignorance, wittering on merely as a smokescreen to advertise his wretched vapourware. Christ, he doesnt even know how depressingly cheap 6AS7 are. What a dumbo. Of course it is possible, and even likely, that one can extract more detail quote because there are no output transformers unquote. No matter how well a transformer is made, and regardless of yet more grindingly boring advertising for Turner Audios vapourware transformers, there is no such thing as a transformer with the characteristics of air. All that extra wire and iron has a characteristic and it will never be truly transparent. The reason you witter on irrelevantly about transformers in a thread about OTL, Turner, is that to a man whose only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Go get an imagination transplant. Much more sour crap from a failed bricklayer and failed electrical repairman and failed wannabe amp manufacturer, best summed up in his own McCarthyite words: What is it about the atma-sphere that we aint being told? Whatever cleverer and harder-working people in general do not tell congenital rip-off merchants like you, Turner. You might show a successful and clever designer, whose feet an insolent lout like you are not fit to lick, the respect of capitalizing the name of his product. Andre Jute ** The above is not merely another NG post - it is a work of art. Turneroid rhymes with haemorrhoid - for a reason. ......... Phil |
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#3
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john wrote: In a nutshell, Let Your Ears Decide and in the case of the Atma-Sphere together with the SoundLAB I am certain you would be in Musical Heaven. Why not find out by sending an e mail to the Exclusive Distributors at uniquesoundvision@REMOVE THIShotmail.com John I think many folks here would be wary about finding out how glorious the sound is from an exclusive distributor of the product. They kinda know what the distributor dudes will say, don't you think? How it sounds is determined in a listening session, preferably with other speakers and amps on hand, so AB comparisons can be made, and with NO salesmen present, or at least salesmen who sell a range of products, so they don't favour just one, or a salesman willing to let folks borrow an amp for a week which often confirms their strong suspicions that what they heard initially away from their home. In my case they get to confirm my amps are indeed better than what they hear with their existing gear, some of which is sold in larger quantities, and which has had rave reviews in appropriate hi-fi press, ( which has usually cost the makers a fortune to "arrange".) I know several ppl who have DIY'd their own audio systems which compare well with high end makers. The post of Andre Jute ( George Orwell ), is insulting, irrational, foulmouthed, uninformative, and sheer BS, coming from a neurotic hasbeen who makes and sells nothing. Its Andre's typical response whenever I compare the basic engineering facts about my own products to those of others here on the Net, and whenever I ask awkward questions about products mentioned, which remain unanswered. And notice how this thread found its way from aus.hi-fi to rec audio tubes? Patrick Turner. "George Orwell" wrote in message ... Ultimate system aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes EXECUTIVE SUMMARY FOR THOSE WITH LIVES AND FRIENDS: More sour crap from that failed bricklayer and failed electrical repairman and failed wannabe amp manufacturer, Patrick Turner, best summed up in his own McCarthyite words: What is it about the atma-sphere that we aint being told? Whatever cleverer and harder-working people in general do not tell congenital rip-off merchants like you, Turner. You might show a successful and clever designer, whose feet an insolent lout like you are not fit to lick, the respect of capitalizing the name of his product. HERE IS THE FULL STORY IF YOU HAVE THE TIME AND THE INCLINATION: Here we go again. Someone suggests a system of world-class repute, including an innovative amplifier design with plaudits from around the world, but to the turneroid nobody it is another opportunity to abuse a real amp designer. To put the turneroid in perspective, he claims in his best year to have sold three amplifiers but we have never heard or seen an actual owner, just a superannuated whore who decided to shop elsewhere. Yo, knucklehead, you are talking about man who actually designs his own amps and sells them to a substantial, adoring public, a man who doesnt just make dull, unsalable copies of obsolete designs like you do. The Atma-Spheres have two Golden Ear Awards and glowing reviews from reputable journals for a reason. Where are Turnip Audios awards? Where can we even read an independent review of one of your amps? An independent review, incidentally, is not your worthless turneroid self-praise, of which we have now had three grinding years too many. Incidentally, if you want to know how much feedback, you write politely to the designer and, if you are legitimate, recognized person, he replies as politely and tells you. The one thing you do NOT do is cast dark aspersions on the net, like some Senator McCarthy conducting a witch hunt. He uses NFB! They use NFB! Just as if you never use negative feedback, the only way you can achieve those dim numbers you brag about so grindingly. Or perhaps you, Patrick Turner, just dont understand how the feedback is arranged in the designs you copy. (Ask here on RAT. There are plenty of NFB experts who will be delighted to talk your ear off about it. I wont even stay in the thread to light up your ignorance. I rarely have need of NFB, see? My amps work very well, thank you, with Zero Negative Feedback.) Next up, moron, if OTL designs that actually work, and these that you presume so insolently to criticize do work exceedingly well, are so easy to design, let us see yours in the flesh, offered up to testing by someone independent. I bet we never will see a turneroid OTL, because as usual Turner talks through the back of his neck, from a position of total ignorance, wittering on merely as a smokescreen to advertise his wretched vapourware. Christ, he doesnt even know how depressingly cheap 6AS7 are. What a dumbo. Of course it is possible, and even likely, that one can extract more detail quote because there are no output transformers unquote. No matter how well a transformer is made, and regardless of yet more grindingly boring advertising for Turner Audios vapourware transformers, there is no such thing as a transformer with the characteristics of air. All that extra wire and iron has a characteristic and it will never be truly transparent. The reason you witter on irrelevantly about transformers in a thread about OTL, Turner, is that to a man whose only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Go get an imagination transplant. Much more sour crap from a failed bricklayer and failed electrical repairman and failed wannabe amp manufacturer, best summed up in his own McCarthyite words: What is it about the atma-sphere that we aint being told? Whatever cleverer and harder-working people in general do not tell congenital rip-off merchants like you, Turner. You might show a successful and clever designer, whose feet an insolent lout like you are not fit to lick, the respect of capitalizing the name of his product. Andre Jute Patrick Turner wrote john wrote: Hi Fi is but a word, if you mean that you want to listen to music and be swept away by the sheer emotion of actually imagining you are there, ie, the speakers dissappear and your hair curls up on the back of your neck then the following are simply the best in the world. SoundLAB Ultimate Full Range Electrostatic Speakers. http://www.soundlab-speakers.com Atma-Sphere MP-1 Pre amplifier with MA-2 power Amplifier http://www.atma-sphere.com/index.html John I wont argue the case about the Soundlab speakers They would want to be good at a retail Oz price of around AUD $12,000. The Atma-sphere amps quote the following for their MA-2 amp, and I enclose my comments :- Recipient of two Golden Ear Awards the MA-2, simply put, is the finest amplifier made anywhere in the world at any price. Ha!, they all say that.... The MA-2 is now updated to the rev.3 level with an improved gain stage with even wider bandwidth and lower distortion then before. Switchable feedback has been added as well. But how much feedback? The audio purist has craved the design features of this amplifier since the beginning of HiFi. These features are seen here together for the first time. The MA-2 Mk. II.3 is the most powerful production OTL amplifier available, with vastly enhanced ability to drive difficult loads. The MA-2 is still 15 years ahead of the competition! OTL designs are easy to make, since there is no OPT. One uses lots of tubes instead of the OPT. Very few makers take this path, because the cost of tubes replacements is very high, and OTL have a tendency to wear out tubes early if they are pushed anywhere near the rated maximum power levels. Not many sustain continuus sine wave power at the rated power. The improvement the MA-2 offers is total. The amplifier is faster then transistor designs, yet involving. ???? Probably fast enough, which is all you want, ie, good F response and low phase shift, typical of most good amps. It has bass impact other tube amps lack, plumbing the low frequencies that other amps seem unaware of. Eh? which "other"tube amps? Yet it is smooth, detailed and tuneful, allowing the listener the ability to play the amplifier day in and day out without noticable artifact, unlike many amplifiers in the recent press! The improvement the MA-2 offers is obvious on any system in 5 seconds flat. It is not subtle. The MA-2 MkII.3 is a direct approach the balanced design involving music and electronics. Designed for music, not sine waves, the MA-2 MkII.3 tracks a dynamic waveform faster than any other amplifier known in the world. It extracts more detail than designs that use transformers, transistors and single-ended (asymmetrical) circuits: music is presented intact. Unfortunately, "extracting more detail" because there are no output transformers is BS. Just sales talk. Its easy to make an OPT which has a full power bandwidth from 10 Hz to 300 kHz, -3 dB points, with a BW from 2Hz to 300 kHz away from full power, which is rarely used. FEATURES All triode Class-A operation The amp has 20 x 6AS7 tubes per 1/2 of the PP circuit. Each 6AS7 is capable of a class A dissipation of about 20 watts, from which 15 class A efficiency is possible, if the load RL was 28 ohms, and the class A power output would be 60 watts. Output TransformerLess (OTL) operation Balanced Differential Design Switchable input impedance Defeatable negative feedback Handcrafted point to point wired- no circuit boards! Mono construction Easily monostrapped for more power Standby switch for long output tube life Easy to live with - tube matching not required Simple, reliable circuit - one stage of gain XLR and RCA input connectors Precision grade components used throughout Patented Circlotronic output circuit Dual AC power circuits for each chassis Custom Teflon coupling capacitors Caddock precision resistors standard "Star" ground circuit Patented black wrinkletex epoxy coat finish Five-year warranty - One year on tubes SPECIFICATIONS 220 watts/channel into 4, 8 or 16 ohm load It would seem impossible that 220w of class A power could ever be delivered to 4 ohms. This is 30vrms of output voltage, which means the peak current in the load is 10.5 amps. Therefore if there are 10 output tubes per 1/2 of the PP circuit,, the current in each tube is 1.05 amps per tube, which is 525 mA per 1/2 triode section, which is about 5 times the idle current for class A. Thus it has to be said that this amp works mainly as a class B amplifier, since the load is very poorly matched to the tubes. Maybe only 20 watts of class A power is available, depending on what bias point has been chosen. Power bandwidth: 2 Hz - 85 kHz within 1/2 db (open loop) Frequency response (1 watt, open loop): l Hz - 100 kHz within 3 dB IM Distortion: less then .05 at full power THD: less then 1 These thd/imd figures seem like ludicrous claims. Under exactly what conditions? RDH4 says that where the ratio of LF signal to HF signal used for an imd test is 4:1, so that we have say 4 volts of 80 Hz plus 1 volt of 5 kHz within the test signal, then when thd of the LF signal is 1, the imd of the HF signal is several times the thd of the LF signal. All the tests I have done with PP amps confirm what thre RDH4 says. Square Wave Tilt: unmeasureable Feedback:0-2 db switchable I cannot see how 2dB of FB, which is almost SFA, could do very much at all to reduce thd/imd, or Ro. Phase shift: less than 1 degree @ 20 kHz Power supply storage: 1100 Joules/chassis Output section risetime: 600 V/micro-second Output Impedance: ~1.75 Ohms (open loop) The Ra of 10 paralleled 6AS7 is 280/20 = 14 ohms. Since the U of the 6AS7 is only 2, the Ra with follower is 5 ohms, and since the load in a circlotron is slung between two lots of 10 tubes in CF, the Ro = 2 x 5 ohms = 10 ohms, so the damping factor would be very poor. What is it about the atma-sphere that we aint being told? How is it possible that they get Ro = 1.75 ohms, without any FB? Power consumption: 800 watts/chassis Tube complement: 20 6AS7 output tubes and 6 6SN7 driver tubes. Dimensions: 28" l x 17" w x 10" h Weight: 103 lbs./chassis The weight of a chassis is 46 kg I guess each chassis has a decent power transformer. In order to get 220 watts in pure class A from triodes, one could do better to use KT88 strapped as triodes in PP, and the plate efficiency can be as high as 30, and thus 20 x KT88 could achieve this, BUT AN OUTPUT TRANSFORMER IS NECESSARY. Each tube could be set up to dissipate 36 watts, and you get an idle power consumption of 720 watts, from which 216 are class A watts into a load of around 700 ohms anode to anode, so an OPT with turn ration of 10 to 1 would be about right, and it would be large, but easy to wind, since wire size would be over 0.6 mm dia. The Ro of such an amp will be 2 ohms, without any loop FB. Alternatively, if we wanted 100 watts of class A power into 5 ohms, with a reserve ability up to 250 watts class AB, with a maximum of 300 watts AB into 3 ohms, then we could achieve this with 12 x KT88 working lazily in UL, or CFB ( acoustical ) Using 9 dB of CFB in the OPT, the Ro is lower than triode. There are quite a few designs of high power tube amps using multiple output tubes which will outperform the Atma-sphere, Jadis, ARC, etc, and the ones I made, pictured at http://www.turneraudio.com.au/htmlwe...00monobloc.htm I provide a FULL set of data is available, with few if any spurious claims, and I include the schematics. The initial version of the design used an ultralinear output stage, but is now being upgraded to utilise 20 of primary winding CFB from the OPT, since it has been found this sounds the best. All aspects of such amps compete favourably with the OTL. The ones I built weigh 50 Kg per channel, with 1/2 the weight in the PS, and 1/2 in the amp chassis. Power consumption is 480 watts per channel, or just over 1/2 the power quoted for the OTL. Into 8 ohms, my amps have a total of 16 dB of FB, 0.12 thd at 220 watts class AB with well over 100 watts of class A. At a typical listening level of 10 watts into speakers of very poor sensitivity, thd is less than 0.05, with correspondingly low imd. The OPT windings can be rearranged to provide 250+ watts into 2.2 ohms, and a large range of other well matched loads, something impossible with OTL. Patrick Turner. |
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To be perfectly frank, some dealers will sell you items that make the most
profit for them, there are of course very good informative, helpful dealers that will listen to to what you are seeking and point you in the right direction. Simply Hi Fi in Perth is such a place. You seem to have some sort of vendetta against Atma-Sphere, I certainly dont against your amps. Simply let the audiophile decide. If you have heard say the SoundLAB M-1s with the Atma-sphere MA-2 then i am sure you would appreciate that for the first time in your life you would be hearing something Unique and Wonderful. John "Patrick Turner" wrote in message ... john wrote: In a nutshell, Let Your Ears Decide and in the case of the Atma-Sphere together with the SoundLAB I am certain you would be in Musical Heaven. Why not find out by sending an e mail to the Exclusive Distributors at uniquesoundvision@REMOVE THIShotmail.com John I think many folks here would be wary about finding out how glorious the sound is from an exclusive distributor of the product. They kinda know what the distributor dudes will say, don't you think? How it sounds is determined in a listening session, preferably with other speakers and amps on hand, so AB comparisons can be made, and with NO salesmen present, or at least salesmen who sell a range of products, so they don't favour just one, or a salesman willing to let folks borrow an amp for a week which often confirms their strong suspicions that what they heard initially away from their home. In my case they get to confirm my amps are indeed better than what they hear with their existing gear, some of which is sold in larger quantities, and which has had rave reviews in appropriate hi-fi press, ( which has usually cost the makers a fortune to "arrange".) I know several ppl who have DIY'd their own audio systems which compare well with high end makers. The post of Andre Jute ( George Orwell ), is insulting, irrational, foulmouthed, uninformative, and sheer BS, coming from a neurotic hasbeen who makes and sells nothing. Its Andre's typical response whenever I compare the basic engineering facts about my own products to those of others here on the Net, and whenever I ask awkward questions about products mentioned, which remain unanswered. And notice how this thread found its way from aus.hi-fi to rec audio tubes? Patrick Turner. "George Orwell" wrote in message ... Ultimate system aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes EXECUTIVE SUMMARY FOR THOSE WITH LIVES AND FRIENDS: More sour crap from that failed bricklayer and failed electrical repairman and failed wannabe amp manufacturer, Patrick Turner, best summed up in his own McCarthyite words: What is it about the atma-sphere that we aint being told? Whatever cleverer and harder-working people in general do not tell congenital rip-off merchants like you, Turner. You might show a successful and clever designer, whose feet an insolent lout like you are not fit to lick, the respect of capitalizing the name of his product. HERE IS THE FULL STORY IF YOU HAVE THE TIME AND THE INCLINATION: Here we go again. Someone suggests a system of world-class repute, including an innovative amplifier design with plaudits from around the world, but to the turneroid nobody it is another opportunity to abuse a real amp designer. To put the turneroid in perspective, he claims in his best year to have sold three amplifiers but we have never heard or seen an actual owner, just a superannuated whore who decided to shop elsewhere. Yo, knucklehead, you are talking about man who actually designs his own amps and sells them to a substantial, adoring public, a man who doesnt just make dull, unsalable copies of obsolete designs like you do. The Atma-Spheres have two Golden Ear Awards and glowing reviews from reputable journals for a reason. Where are Turnip Audios awards? Where can we even read an independent review of one of your amps? An independent review, incidentally, is not your worthless turneroid self-praise, of which we have now had three grinding years too many. Incidentally, if you want to know how much feedback, you write politely to the designer and, if you are legitimate, recognized person, he replies as politely and tells you. The one thing you do NOT do is cast dark aspersions on the net, like some Senator McCarthy conducting a witch hunt. He uses NFB! They use NFB! Just as if you never use negative feedback, the only way you can achieve those dim numbers you brag about so grindingly. Or perhaps you, Patrick Turner, just dont understand how the feedback is arranged in the designs you copy. (Ask here on RAT. There are plenty of NFB experts who will be delighted to talk your ear off about it. I wont even stay in the thread to light up your ignorance. I rarely have need of NFB, see? My amps work very well, thank you, with Zero Negative Feedback.) Next up, moron, if OTL designs that actually work, and these that you presume so insolently to criticize do work exceedingly well, are so easy to design, let us see yours in the flesh, offered up to testing by someone independent. I bet we never will see a turneroid OTL, because as usual Turner talks through the back of his neck, from a position of total ignorance, wittering on merely as a smokescreen to advertise his wretched vapourware. Christ, he doesnt even know how depressingly cheap 6AS7 are. What a dumbo. Of course it is possible, and even likely, that one can extract more detail quote because there are no output transformers unquote. No matter how well a transformer is made, and regardless of yet more grindingly boring advertising for Turner Audios vapourware transformers, there is no such thing as a transformer with the characteristics of air. All that extra wire and iron has a characteristic and it will never be truly transparent. The reason you witter on irrelevantly about transformers in a thread about OTL, Turner, is that to a man whose only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Go get an imagination transplant. Much more sour crap from a failed bricklayer and failed electrical repairman and failed wannabe amp manufacturer, best summed up in his own McCarthyite words: What is it about the atma-sphere that we aint being told? Whatever cleverer and harder-working people in general do not tell congenital rip-off merchants like you, Turner. You might show a successful and clever designer, whose feet an insolent lout like you are not fit to lick, the respect of capitalizing the name of his product. Andre Jute Patrick Turner wrote john wrote: Hi Fi is but a word, if you mean that you want to listen to music and be swept away by the sheer emotion of actually imagining you are there, ie, the speakers dissappear and your hair curls up on the back of your neck then the following are simply the best in the world. SoundLAB Ultimate Full Range Electrostatic Speakers. http://www.soundlab-speakers.com Atma-Sphere MP-1 Pre amplifier with MA-2 power Amplifier http://www.atma-sphere.com/index.html John I wont argue the case about the Soundlab speakers They would want to be good at a retail Oz price of around AUD $12,000. The Atma-sphere amps quote the following for their MA-2 amp, and I enclose my comments :- Recipient of two Golden Ear Awards the MA-2, simply put, is the finest amplifier made anywhere in the world at any price. Ha!, they all say that.... The MA-2 is now updated to the rev.3 level with an improved gain stage with even wider bandwidth and lower distortion then before. Switchable feedback has been added as well. But how much feedback? The audio purist has craved the design features of this amplifier since the beginning of HiFi. These features are seen here together for the first time. The MA-2 Mk. II.3 is the most powerful production OTL amplifier available, with vastly enhanced ability to drive difficult loads. The MA-2 is still 15 years ahead of the competition! OTL designs are easy to make, since there is no OPT. One uses lots of tubes instead of the OPT. Very few makers takethis path, because the cost of tubes replacements is very high, and OTL have a tendency to wear out tubes early if they are pushed anywhere near the rated maximum power levels. Not many sustain continuus sine wave power at the rated power. The improvement the MA-2 offers is total. The amplifier is faster then transistor designs, yet involving. ???? Probably fast enough, which is all you want, ie, good F response and low phase shift, typical of most good amps. It has bass impact other tube amps lack, plumbing the low frequencies that other amps seem unaware of. Eh? which "other"tube amps? Yet it is smooth, detailed and tuneful, allowing the listener the ability to play the amplifier day in and day out without noticable artifact, unlike many amplifiers in the recent press! The improvement the MA-2 offers is obvious on any system in 5 seconds flat. It is not subtle. The MA-2 MkII.3 is a direct approach the balanced design involving music and electronics. Designed for music, not sine waves, the MA-2 MkII.3 tracks a dynamic waveform faster than any other amplifier known in the world. It extracts more detail than designs that use transformers, transistors and single-ended (asymmetrical) circuits: music is presented intact. Unfortunately, "extracting more detail" because there are no output transformers is BS. Just sales talk. Its easy to make an OPT which has a full power bandwidth from 10 Hz to 300 kHz, -3 dB points, with a BW from 2Hz to 300 kHz away from full power, which is rarely used. FEATURES All triode Class-A operation The amp has 20 x 6AS7 tubes per 1/2 of the PP circuit. Each 6AS7 is capable of a class A dissipation of about 20 watts, from which 15 class A efficiency is possible, if the load RL was 28 ohms, and the class A power output would be 60 watts. Output TransformerLess (OTL) operation Balanced Differential Design Switchable input impedance Defeatable negative feedback Handcrafted point to point wired- no circuit boards! Mono construction Easily monostrapped for more power Standby switch for long output tube life Easy to live with - tube matching not required Simple, reliable circuit - one stage of gain XLR and RCA input connectors Precision grade components used throughout Patented Circlotronic output circuit Dual AC power circuits for each chassis Custom Teflon coupling capacitors Caddock precision resistors standard "Star" ground circuit Patented black wrinkletex epoxy coat finish Five-year warranty - One year on tubes SPECIFICATIONS 220 watts/channel into 4, 8 or 16 ohm load It would seem impossible that 220w of class A power could ever be delivered to 4 ohms. This is 30vrms of output voltage, which means the peak current in the load is 10.5 amps. Therefore if there are 10 output tubes per 1/2 of the PP circuit,, the current in each tube is 1.05 amps per tube, which is 525 mA per 1/2 triode section, which is about 5 times the idle current for class A. Thus it has to be said that this amp works mainly as a class B amplifier, since the load is very poorly matched to the tubes. Maybe only 20 watts of class A power is available, depending on what bias point has been chosen. Power bandwidth: 2 Hz - 85 kHz within 1/2 db (open loop) Frequency response (1 watt, open loop): l Hz - 100 kHz within 3 dB IM Distortion: less then .05 at full power THD: less then 1 These thd/imd figures seem like ludicrous claims. Under exactly what conditions? RDH4 says that where the ratio of LF signal to HF signal used for an imd test is 4:1, so that we have say 4 volts of 80 Hz plus 1 volt of 5 kHz within the test signal, then when thd of the LF signal is 1, the imd of the HF signal is several times the thd of the LF signal. All the tests I have done with PP amps confirm what thre RDH4 says. Square Wave Tilt: unmeasureable Feedback:0-2 db switchable I cannot see how 2dB of FB, which is almost SFA, could do very much at all to reduce thd/imd, or Ro. Phase shift: less than 1 degree @ 20 kHz Power supply storage: 1100 Joules/chassis Output section risetime: 600 V/micro-second Output Impedance: ~1.75 Ohms (open loop) The Ra of 10 paralleled 6AS7 is 280/20 = 14 ohms. Since the U of the 6AS7 is only 2, the Ra with follower is 5 ohms, and since the load in a circlotron is slung between two lots of 10 tubes in CF, the Ro = 2 x 5 ohms = 10 ohms, so the damping factor would be very poor. What is it about the atma-sphere that we aint being told? How is it possible that they get Ro = 1.75 ohms, without any FB? Power consumption: 800 watts/chassis Tube complement: 20 6AS7 output tubes and 6 6SN7 driver tubes. Dimensions: 28" l x 17" w x 10" h Weight: 103 lbs./chassis The weight of a chassis is 46 kg I guess each chassis has a decent power transformer. In order to get 220 watts in pure class A from triodes, one could do better to use KT88 strapped as triodes in PP, and the plate efficiency can be as high as 30, and thus 20 x KT88 could achieve this, BUT AN OUTPUT TRANSFORMER IS NECESSARY. Each tube could be set up to dissipate 36 watts, and you get an idle power consumption of 720 watts, from which 216 are class A watts into a load of around 700 ohms anode to anode, so an OPT with turn ration of 10 to 1 would be about right, and it would be large, but easy to wind, since wire size would be over 0.6 mm dia. The Ro of such an amp will be 2 ohms, without any loop FB. Alternatively, if we wanted 100 watts of class A power into 5 ohms, with a reserve ability up to 250 watts class AB, with a maximum of 300 watts AB into 3 ohms, then we could achieve this with 12 x KT88 working lazily in UL, or CFB ( acoustical ) Using 9 dB of CFB in the OPT, the Ro is lower than triode. There are quite a few designs of high power tube amps using multiple output tubes which will outperform the Atma-sphere, Jadis, ARC, etc, and the ones I made, pictured at http://www.turneraudio.com.au/htmlwe...00monobloc.htm I provide a FULL set of data is available, with few if any spurious claims, and I include the schematics. The initial version of the design used an ultralinear output stage, but is now being upgraded to utilise 20 of primary winding CFB from the OPT, since it has been found this sounds the best. All aspects of such amps compete favourably with the OTL. The ones I built weigh 50 Kg per channel, with 1/2 the weight in the PS, and 1/2 in the amp chassis. Power consumption is 480 watts per channel, or just over 1/2 the power quoted for the OTL. Into 8 ohms, my amps have a total of 16 dB of FB, 0.12 thd at 220 watts class AB with well over 100 watts of class A. At a typical listening level of 10 watts into speakers of very poor sensitivity, thd is less than 0.05, with correspondingly low imd. The OPT windings can be rearranged to provide 250+ watts into 2.2 ohms, and a large range of other well matched loads, something impossible with OTL. Patrick Turner. |
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"john" wrote in message ... To be perfectly frank, some dealers will sell you items that make the most profit for them, there are of course very good informative, helpful dealers that will listen to to what you are seeking and point you in the right direction. Simply Hi Fi in Perth is such a place. You seem to have some sort of vendetta against Atma-Sphere, I certainly dont against your amps. Simply let the audiophile decide. If you have heard say the SoundLAB M-1s with the Atma-sphere MA-2 then i am sure you would appreciate that for the first time in your life you would be hearing something Unique and Wonderful. John ** John has swallowed not only the salesman, but also the catalogue, the brochure and all the **** contained therein. He has, no doubt, a cast iron stomach - but no brain of his own at all. ............ Phil |
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john wrote: To be perfectly frank, some dealers will sell you items that make the most profit for them, there are of course very good informative, helpful dealers that will listen to to what you are seeking and point you in the right direction. Simply Hi Fi in Perth is such a place. You seem to have some sort of vendetta against Atma-Sphere, I certainly dont against your amps. Simply let the audiophile decide. I do NOT have any vendetta against Atma-sphere, or anyone, unless they refuse to be rational courteous, friendly, and inquisitve about the salient facts about ALL aspects of tube audio. I simply asked a range of questions about the the product mentioned. They have not been answered. I try to keep no secrets about my own creations. Indeed I welcome the audiophile to decide for himself. AND where that audiophile cites the science as reasons for making a buying decision, as opposed to a decision solely based on listenings, I will have some considerable comment, insight, and questioning. If you have heard say the SoundLAB M-1s with the Atma-sphere MA-2 then i am sure you would appreciate that for the first time in your life you would be hearing something Unique and Wonderful. Unfortunately, that is just sales pitch. I could say exactly the same about my gear, but it would be spamming the news group if I did. I let folks find out for themselves. I am a small volume maker who mainly sells to locals. They get to borrow something for awhile after I get to know them. I don't sell huge volumes, because I am located in Canberra, which is 300,000 souls, well away from the main capitol city markets of 4 million in Sydney, or 3 million in Melbourne. There are not many ppl here who would spend $10,000 on speakers, or perhaps $10,000 on amplifiers. The vast majority buy a whole basic DVD compatible HT system for a few grand at the most. Most live in apartments, with small rooms, and a $20,000 system is quite inappropriate. Most buyers hear little difference between a $2,000 system, or the $20,000 system. I have been to enough audiophile meetings to watch some very serious audiophiles smile at the vain efforts of salesmen to impress them with hi-end gear. I also know at least one who traded his tube amps for Halcro, which cost him $45,000. But he could afford it all, most ppl cannot. I have seen reports of folks saying Halcro is "just another SS amp". Good audio is about how something is made, and how it sounds, not its exclusive price. Halcro invested some considerable sum, well over 1 million bucks to make something which represents the cutting edge of SS audio amps, and the expense included some of their team trapsing around the globe with samples, and creating the market presence in the right places. This doesn't mean their amps are "better than the next man's". "better" is how the ppl percieve things to be. It just means they succeded with a marketing exercise. I don't have the funds for any of that, and I am happy doing just a few bottle amps. Patrick Turner. John "Patrick Turner" wrote in message ... john wrote: In a nutshell, Let Your Ears Decide and in the case of the Atma-Sphere together with the SoundLAB I am certain you would be in Musical Heaven. Why not find out by sending an e mail to the Exclusive Distributors at uniquesoundvision@REMOVE THIShotmail.com John I think many folks here would be wary about finding out how glorious the sound is from an exclusive distributor of the product. They kinda know what the distributor dudes will say, don't you think? How it sounds is determined in a listening session, preferably with other speakers and amps on hand, so AB comparisons can be made, and with NO salesmen present, or at least salesmen who sell a range of products, so they don't favour just one, or a salesman willing to let folks borrow an amp for a week which often confirms their strong suspicions that what they heard initially away from their home. In my case they get to confirm my amps are indeed better than what they hear with their existing gear, some of which is sold in larger quantities, and which has had rave reviews in appropriate hi-fi press, ( which has usually cost the makers a fortune to "arrange".) I know several ppl who have DIY'd their own audio systems which compare well with high end makers. The post of Andre Jute ( George Orwell ), is insulting, irrational, foulmouthed, uninformative, and sheer BS, coming from a neurotic hasbeen who makes and sells nothing. Its Andre's typical response whenever I compare the basic engineering facts about my own products to those of others here on the Net, and whenever I ask awkward questions about products mentioned, which remain unanswered. And notice how this thread found its way from aus.hi-fi to rec audio tubes? Patrick Turner. "George Orwell" wrote in message ... Ultimate system aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes EXECUTIVE SUMMARY FOR THOSE WITH LIVES AND FRIENDS: More sour crap from that failed bricklayer and failed electrical repairman and failed wannabe amp manufacturer, Patrick Turner, best summed up in his own McCarthyite words: What is it about the atma-sphere that we aint being told? Whatever cleverer and harder-working people in general do not tell congenital rip-off merchants like you, Turner. You might show a successful and clever designer, whose feet an insolent lout like you are not fit to lick, the respect of capitalizing the name of his product. HERE IS THE FULL STORY IF YOU HAVE THE TIME AND THE INCLINATION: Here we go again. Someone suggests a system of world-class repute, including an innovative amplifier design with plaudits from around the world, but to the turneroid nobody it is another opportunity to abuse a real amp designer. To put the turneroid in perspective, he claims in his best year to have sold three amplifiers but we have never heard or seen an actual owner, just a superannuated whore who decided to shop elsewhere. Yo, knucklehead, you are talking about man who actually designs his own amps and sells them to a substantial, adoring public, a man who doesnt just make dull, unsalable copies of obsolete designs like you do. The Atma-Spheres have two Golden Ear Awards and glowing reviews from reputable journals for a reason. Where are Turnip Audios awards? Where can we even read an independent review of one of your amps? An independent review, incidentally, is not your worthless turneroid self-praise, of which we have now had three grinding years too many. Incidentally, if you want to know how much feedback, you write politely to the designer and, if you are legitimate, recognized person, he replies as politely and tells you. The one thing you do NOT do is cast dark aspersions on the net, like some Senator McCarthy conducting a witch hunt. He uses NFB! They use NFB! Just as if you never use negative feedback, the only way you can achieve those dim numbers you brag about so grindingly. Or perhaps you, Patrick Turner, just dont understand how the feedback is arranged in the designs you copy. (Ask here on RAT. There are plenty of NFB experts who will be delighted to talk your ear off about it. I wont even stay in the thread to light up your ignorance. I rarely have need of NFB, see? My amps work very well, thank you, with Zero Negative Feedback.) Next up, moron, if OTL designs that actually work, and these that you presume so insolently to criticize do work exceedingly well, are so easy to design, let us see yours in the flesh, offered up to testing by someone independent. I bet we never will see a turneroid OTL, because as usual Turner talks through the back of his neck, from a position of total ignorance, wittering on merely as a smokescreen to advertise his wretched vapourware. Christ, he doesnt even know how depressingly cheap 6AS7 are. What a dumbo. Of course it is possible, and even likely, that one can extract more detail quote because there are no output transformers unquote. No matter how well a transformer is made, and regardless of yet more grindingly boring advertising for Turner Audios vapourware transformers, there is no such thing as a transformer with the characteristics of air. All that extra wire and iron has a characteristic and it will never be truly transparent. The reason you witter on irrelevantly about transformers in a thread about OTL, Turner, is that to a man whose only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Go get an imagination transplant. Much more sour crap from a failed bricklayer and failed electrical repairman and failed wannabe amp manufacturer, best summed up in his own McCarthyite words: What is it about the atma-sphere that we aint being told? Whatever cleverer and harder-working people in general do not tell congenital rip-off merchants like you, Turner. You might show a successful and clever designer, whose feet an insolent lout like you are not fit to lick, the respect of capitalizing the name of his product. Andre Jute Patrick Turner wrote john wrote: Hi Fi is but a word, if you mean that you want to listen to music and be swept away by the sheer emotion of actually imagining you are there, ie, the speakers dissappear and your hair curls up on the back of your neck then the following are simply the best in the world. SoundLAB Ultimate Full Range Electrostatic Speakers. http://www.soundlab-speakers.com Atma-Sphere MP-1 Pre amplifier with MA-2 power Amplifier http://www.atma-sphere.com/index.html John I wont argue the case about the Soundlab speakers They would want to be good at a retail Oz price of around AUD $12,000. The Atma-sphere amps quote the following for their MA-2 amp, and I enclose my comments :- Recipient of two Golden Ear Awards the MA-2, simply put, is the finest amplifier made anywhere in the world at any price. Ha!, they all say that.... The MA-2 is now updated to the rev.3 level with an improved gain stage with even wider bandwidth and lower distortion then before. Switchable feedback has been added as well. But how much feedback? The audio purist has craved the design features of this amplifier since the beginning of HiFi. These features are seen here together for the first time. The MA-2 Mk. II.3 is the most powerful production OTL amplifier available, with vastly enhanced ability to drive difficult loads. The MA-2 is still 15 years ahead of the competition! OTL designs are easy to make, since there is no OPT. One uses lots of tubes instead of the OPT. Very few makers take this path, because the cost of tubes replacements is very high, and OTL have a tendency to wear out tubes early if they are pushed anywhere near the rated maximum power levels. Not many sustain continuus sine wave power at the rated power. The improvement the MA-2 offers is total. The amplifier is faster then transistor designs, yet involving. ???? Probably fast enough, which is all you want, ie, good F response and low phase shift, typical of most good amps. It has bass impact other tube amps lack, plumbing the low frequencies that other amps seem unaware of. Eh? which "other"tube amps? Yet it is smooth, detailed and tuneful, allowing the listener the ability to play the amplifier day in and day out without noticable artifact, unlike many amplifiers in the recent press! The improvement the MA-2 offers is obvious on any system in 5 seconds flat. It is not subtle. The MA-2 MkII.3 is a direct approach the balanced design involving music and electronics. Designed for music, not sine waves, the MA-2 MkII.3 tracks a dynamic waveform faster than any other amplifier known in the world. It extracts more detail than designs that use transformers, transistors and single-ended (asymmetrical) circuits: music is presented intact. Unfortunately, "extracting more detail" because there are no output transformers is BS. Just sales talk. Its easy to make an OPT which has a full power bandwidth from 10 Hz to 300 kHz, -3 dB points, with a BW from 2Hz to 300 kHz away from full power, which is rarely used. FEATURES All triode Class-A operation The amp has 20 x 6AS7 tubes per 1/2 of the PP circuit. Each 6AS7 is capable of a class A dissipation of about 20 watts, from which 15 class A efficiency is possible, if the load RL was 28 ohms, and the class A power output would be 60 watts. Output TransformerLess (OTL) operation Balanced Differential Design Switchable input impedance Defeatable negative feedback Handcrafted point to point wired- no circuit boards! Mono construction Easily monostrapped for more power Standby switch for long output tube life Easy to live with - tube matching not required Simple, reliable circuit - one stage of gain XLR and RCA input connectors Precision grade components used throughout Patented Circlotronic output circuit Dual AC power circuits for each chassis Custom Teflon coupling capacitors Caddock precision resistors standard "Star" ground circuit Patented black wrinkletex epoxy coat finish Five-year warranty - One year on tubes SPECIFICATIONS 220 watts/channel into 4, 8 or 16 ohm load It would seem impossible that 220w of class A power could ever be delivered to 4 ohms. This is 30vrms of output voltage, which means the peak current in the load is 10.5 amps. Therefore if there are 10 output tubes per 1/2 of the PP circuit,, the current in each tube is 1.05 amps per tube, which is 525 mA per 1/2 triode section, which is about 5 times the idle current for class A. Thus it has to be said that this amp works mainly as a class B amplifier, since the load is very poorly matched to the tubes. Maybe only 20 watts of class A power is available, depending on what bias point has been chosen. Power bandwidth: 2 Hz - 85 kHz within 1/2 db (open loop) Frequency response (1 watt, open loop): l Hz - 100 kHz within 3 dB IM Distortion: less then .05 at full power THD: less then 1 These thd/imd figures seem like ludicrous claims. Under exactly what conditions? RDH4 says that where the ratio of LF signal to HF signal used for an imd test is 4:1, so that we have say 4 volts of 80 Hz plus 1 volt of 5 kHz within the test signal, then when thd of the LF signal is 1, the imd of the HF signal is several times the thd of the LF signal. All the tests I have done with PP amps confirm what thre RDH4 says. Square Wave Tilt: unmeasureable Feedback:0-2 db switchable I cannot see how 2dB of FB, which is almost SFA, could do very much at all to reduce thd/imd, or Ro. Phase shift: less than 1 degree @ 20 kHz Power supply storage: 1100 Joules/chassis Output section risetime: 600 V/micro-second Output Impedance: ~1.75 Ohms (open loop) The Ra of 10 paralleled 6AS7 is 280/20 = 14 ohms. Since the U of the 6AS7 is only 2, the Ra with follower is 5 ohms, and since the load in a circlotron is slung between two lots of 10 tubes in CF, the Ro = 2 x 5 ohms = 10 ohms, so the damping factor would be very poor. What is it about the atma-sphere that we aint being told? How is it possible that they get Ro = 1.75 ohms, without any FB? Power consumption: 800 watts/chassis Tube complement: 20 6AS7 output tubes and 6 6SN7 driver tubes. Dimensions: 28" l x 17" w x 10" h Weight: 103 lbs./chassis The weight of a chassis is 46 kg I guess each chassis has a decent power transformer. In order to get 220 watts in pure class A from triodes, one could do better to use KT88 strapped as triodes in PP, and the plate efficiency can be as high as 30, and thus 20 x KT88 could achieve this, BUT AN OUTPUT TRANSFORMER IS NECESSARY. Each tube could be set up to dissipate 36 watts, and you get an idle power consumption of 720 watts, from which 216 are class A watts into a load of around 700 ohms anode to anode, so an OPT with turn ration of 10 to 1 would be about right, and it would be large, but easy to wind, since wire size would be over 0.6 mm dia. The Ro of such an amp will be 2 ohms, without any loop FB. Alternatively, if we wanted 100 watts of class A power into 5 ohms, with a reserve ability up to 250 watts class AB, with a maximum of 300 watts AB into 3 ohms, then we could achieve this with 12 x KT88 working lazily in UL, or CFB ( acoustical ) Using 9 dB of CFB in the OPT, the Ro is lower than triode. There are quite a few designs of high power tube amps using multiple output tubes which will outperform the Atma-sphere, Jadis, ARC, etc, and the ones I made, pictured at http://www.turneraudio.com.au/htmlwe...00monobloc.htm I provide a FULL set of data is available, with few if any spurious claims, and I include the schematics. The initial version of the design used an ultralinear output stage, but is now being upgraded to utilise 20 of primary winding CFB from the OPT, since it has been found this sounds the best. All aspects of such amps compete favourably with the OTL. The ones I built weigh 50 Kg per channel, with 1/2 the weight in the PS, and 1/2 in the amp chassis. Power consumption is 480 watts per channel, or just over 1/2 the power quoted for the OTL. Into 8 ohms, my amps have a total of 16 dB of FB, 0.12 thd at 220 watts class AB with well over 100 watts of class A. At a typical listening level of 10 watts into speakers of very poor sensitivity, thd is less than 0.05, with correspondingly low imd. The OPT windings can be rearranged to provide 250+ watts into 2.2 ohms, and a large range of other well matched loads, something impossible with OTL. Patrick Turner. |
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"Patrick Turner" I don't sell huge volumes, because I am located in Canberra, which is 300,000 souls, well away from the main capitol city markets of 4 million in Sydney, or 3 million in Melbourne. ** Canberra is the most affluent city is Australia by far - full of public servants. No low income folk there at all. They all live have to live in Queenbeyan - aka "struggle town". There are not many ppl here who would spend $10,000 on speakers, or perhaps $10,000 on amplifiers. ** Nor in any city are there "many". Wot a stinking whinger. ............. Phil |
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Phil Allison wrote: "Patrick Turner" I don't sell huge volumes, because I am located in Canberra, which is 300,000 souls, well away from the main capitol city markets of 4 million in Sydney, or 3 million in Melbourne. ** Canberra is the most affluent city is Australia by far - full of public servants. Absolute utter BS, you have NO clue about Canberra, where the private sector employment is far greater than the public. No low income folk there at all. Total crap. They all live have to live in Queenbeyan - aka "struggle town". Queanbeayn, a small town just across the border in NSW, about 10 km away has just as many well of folks and poor folks as Canberra does. Let me know when you have studied the facts before shouting your mouth off about places you don't understand. Patrick Turner. |
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"Patrick Turner" wrote in message ... Phil Allison wrote: "Patrick Turner" I don't sell huge volumes, because I am located in Canberra, which is 300,000 souls, well away from the main capitol city markets of 4 million in Sydney, or 3 million in Melbourne. ** Canberra is the most affluent city is Australia by far - full of public servants. Absolute utter BS, you have NO clue about Canberra, where the private sector employment is far greater than the public. ** Canberra has NO industry. It lives off taxpayer funds from the rest of Australia. No low income folk there at all. Total crap. ** Nope - total fact. It is a very expensive but utterly soulless place to live. How utterly suitable for the Turneroid. They all live have to live in Queenbeyan - aka "struggle town". Queanbeayn, a small town just across the border in NSW, about 10 km away has just as many well of folks and poor folks as Canberra does. ** Queanbeyan is the source for all the low paid people WORKING in Canberra. ............... Phil |
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#10
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Below, Phil craps on about the way folks earn their money
in Canberra, with about as much understanding and knowledge as a half trained chimpanzee high on LSD. In the typical fashion of someone with severe neurosies, he must severly criticise a place where he does not live or work, ie, Canberra. " It is a very expensive but utterly soulless place to live." What a dumb statement! But thank christ the very soulless Phil don't live here. I have lived in Sydney, I grew up there, and the vast metropolitan area is cluttered, noisy, dirty, distracting, poorly planned, over priced, and far more stressfull a place to live, and the traffic and grafiti is infuriating. The cost of living and house prices are higher, and amenities are all worse than the A.C.T. There are nutters like Phil who live there. Patrick Turner. Phil Allison wrote: "Patrick Turner" wrote in message ... Phil Allison wrote: "Patrick Turner" I don't sell huge volumes, because I am located in Canberra, which is 300,000 souls, well away from the main capitol city markets of 4 million in Sydney, or 3 million in Melbourne. ** Canberra is the most affluent city is Australia by far - full of public servants. Absolute utter BS, you have NO clue about Canberra, where the private sector employment is far greater than the public. ** Canberra has NO industry. It lives off taxpayer funds from the rest of Australia. No low income folk there at all. Total crap. ** Nope - total fact. It is a very expensive but utterly soulless place to live. How utterly suitable for the Turneroid. They all live have to live in Queenbeyan - aka "struggle town". Queanbeayn, a small town just across the border in NSW, about 10 km away has just as many well of folks and poor folks as Canberra does. ** Queanbeyan is the source for all the low paid people WORKING in Canberra. .............. Phil |
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#11
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"Patrick Turner" I have lived in Sydney, I grew up there, and the vast metropolitan area is cluttered, noisy, dirty, distracting, poorly planned, over priced, and far more stressfull a place to live, and the traffic and grafiti is infuriating. ** What a dumb thing to say. Sydney is an infinitely better place to live than Canberra. But the autistic Turneriod would never see why. On Friday evenings - most of Canberra leaves for the weekend. The cost of living and house prices are higher, and amenities are all worse than the A.C.T. ** More Turneroid lies - he lies, he lies, he lies ....... Canberra is full of public service ****heads. ........... Phil |
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#12
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Its obvious to everyone that whenever the facts are explained to Phil, his reponse is :- ** More Turneroid lies - he lies, he lies, he lies ....... Canberra is full of public service ****heads. .......... Phil And hardly anyone leaves the town on Friday, and in fact there is a huge traffic flow into Canberra for the weekend. Phil the Chimp has no clue. The state goverments employ far more "public service f---heads", along with local councils, statutory bodies, and federal bodies stationed in state capitol cities. Let me know when you get your facts correct. But there is at least one "electronics service f---head" living in Sydney. Patrick Turner. |
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#13
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"Patrick Turner" Its obvious to everyone that whenever the facts are explained to Phil, his reponse is :- ** The Turneroid would not know a fact if one bit him on the end of his dick. He does not deal in facts - just his demented misconceptions about everything. ** More Turneroid lies - he lies, he lies, he lies ....... Canberra is full of public service ****heads. .......... Phil And hardly anyone leaves the town on Friday, and in fact there is a huge traffic flow into Canberra for the weekend. ** ROTFLMAO - more lies, more lies. The state governments employ far more "public service f---heads", along with local councils, statutory bodies, and federal bodies stationed in state capitol cities. ** The Turneroid scumbag cannot even grasp the simple idea of a percentage. If the Federal Govt moved its offices and Parliament out of Canberra then the soulless dump would be a ghost town inside a week. The Turneriod has a highly affluent community all around him and NO idea that the rest of Australia is very different - then he has the unmitigated GALL to pretend he lives in some kind of typical small town. ............. Phil |
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#14
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"George Orwell" wrote in message
... EXECUTIVE SUMMARY FOR THOSE WITH LIVES AND FRIENDS: snip HERE IS THE FULL STORY IF YOU HAVE THE TIME AND THE INCLINATION: Well, well, 'Andre' is now 'George Orwell'. His rantings, which I'm sure most people WON'T have either the time or the inclination, to read, have been removed to protect the innocent. Who said that no-one has cloned a human being? If 'Andre Jute' isn't a clone of Phil Allison (or vice versa), then they're the next best thing, or should that be the next WORST thing? ruff |
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#15
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And you do Phil?. All you can ever do is try to knock over people down when you
clearly have nothing of your own to add. your more like bacteria devouring everything in your sight. Phil Allison wrote: "john" wrote in message ... To be perfectly frank, some dealers will sell you items that make the most profit for them, there are of course very good informative, helpful dealers that will listen to to what you are seeking and point you in the right direction. Simply Hi Fi in Perth is such a place. You seem to have some sort of vendetta against Atma-Sphere, I certainly dont against your amps. Simply let the audiophile decide. If you have heard say the SoundLAB M-1s with the Atma-sphere MA-2 then i am sure you would appreciate that for the first time in your life you would be hearing something Unique and Wonderful. John ** John has swallowed not only the salesman, but also the catalogue, the brochure and all the **** contained therein. He has, no doubt, a cast iron stomach - but no brain of his own at all. ........... Phil |
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#16
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No low income folk there at all.
Do your home work Phil this is empirically incorrect. Were is the winge Patrick was stating fact. Phil Allison wrote: "Patrick Turner" I don't sell huge volumes, because I am located in Canberra, which is 300,000 souls, well away from the main capitol city markets of 4 million in Sydney, or 3 million in Melbourne. ** Canberra is the most affluent city is Australia by far - full of public servants. They all live have to live in Queenbeyan - aka "struggle town". There are not many ppl here who would spend $10,000 on speakers, or perhaps $10,000 on amplifiers. ** Nor in any city are there "many". Wot a stinking whinger. ............ Phil |
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#17
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:50:48 GMT, paul james
wrote: And you do Phil?. All you can ever do is try to knock over people down when you clearly have nothing of your own to add. your more like bacteria devouring everything in your sight. It's alot easier for Phil to knock something down than it is for him to ever offer an idea. Especially since most of thoughts come from (the now late) Peter Walker. It's also an easy way to feel important and special in a group, by bad mouthing evrything in sight to sound like an expert, especially if you have little or nothing to actually contribute..as far as recommending components outside of the quad factory,JH factory, or from the sony factory of 20 years ago. |
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#18
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Canberra has NO industry.
Typical Allison black and white thinking your really are like a robot with such a simple routine. * Canberra has NO industry. So suddenly a lot of people are out of work and all the business gone with them. This is absolutely crazzy stuff. A primary school student would make a more informed comment than this. It lives off taxpayer funds from the rest of Australia. Maybe to some extent beacuse of the infrasctuer for parliamant and goverment. you havent added the context. But then I am expecting too much your Phil after all. ** Queanbeyan is the source for all the low paid people WORKING in Canberra. Thast nott entirely true either. Phil Allison wrote: "Patrick Turner" wrote in message ... Phil Allison wrote: "Patrick Turner" I don't sell huge volumes, because I am located in Canberra, which is 300,000 souls, well away from the main capitol city markets of 4 million in Sydney, or 3 million in Melbourne. ** Canberra is the most affluent city is Australia by far - full of public servants. Absolute utter BS, you have NO clue about Canberra, where the private sector employment is far greater than the public. ** Canberra has NO industry. It lives off taxpayer funds from the rest of Australia. No low income folk there at all. Total crap. ** Nope - total fact. It is a very expensive but utterly soulless place to live. How utterly suitable for the Turneroid. They all live have to live in Queenbeyan - aka "struggle town". Queanbeayn, a small town just across the border in NSW, about 10 km away has just as many well of folks and poor folks as Canberra does. ** Queanbeyan is the source for all the low paid people WORKING in Canberra. .............. Phil |
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#19
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We talk about road rage we have Phil with a kind of Sydney rage, he doesnt know to
talk any more only rant. Maybe he likes it that way. Patrick Turner wrote: Below, Phil craps on about the way folks earn their money in Canberra, with about as much understanding and knowledge as a half trained chimpanzee high on LSD. In the typical fashion of someone with severe neurosies, he must severly criticise a place where he does not live or work, ie, Canberra. " It is a very expensive but utterly soulless place to live." What a dumb statement! But thank christ the very soulless Phil don't live here. I have lived in Sydney, I grew up there, and the vast metropolitan area is cluttered, noisy, dirty, distracting, poorly planned, over priced, and far more stressfull a place to live, and the traffic and grafiti is infuriating. The cost of living and house prices are higher, and amenities are all worse than the A.C.T. There are nutters like Phil who live there. Patrick Turner. Phil Allison wrote: "Patrick Turner" wrote in message ... Phil Allison wrote: "Patrick Turner" I don't sell huge volumes, because I am located in Canberra, which is 300,000 souls, well away from the main capitol city markets of 4 million in Sydney, or 3 million in Melbourne. ** Canberra is the most affluent city is Australia by far - full of public servants. Absolute utter BS, you have NO clue about Canberra, where the private sector employment is far greater than the public. ** Canberra has NO industry. It lives off taxpayer funds from the rest of Australia. No low income folk there at all. Total crap. ** Nope - total fact. It is a very expensive but utterly soulless place to live. How utterly suitable for the Turneroid. They all live have to live in Queenbeyan - aka "struggle town". Queanbeayn, a small town just across the border in NSW, about 10 km away has just as many well of folks and poor folks as Canberra does. ** Queanbeyan is the source for all the low paid people WORKING in Canberra. .............. Phil |
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#20
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Classic Abuse
you have lost the discussion so you switch to the FFF word. What a mindless soul you are. Phil Allison wrote: "Patrick Turner" I have lived in Sydney, I grew up there, and the vast metropolitan area is cluttered, noisy, dirty, distracting, poorly planned, over priced, and far more stressfull a place to live, and the traffic and grafiti is infuriating. ** What a dumb thing to say. Sydney is an infinitely better place to live than Canberra. But the autistic Turneriod would never see why. On Friday evenings - most of Canberra leaves for the weekend. The cost of living and house prices are higher, and amenities are all worse than the A.C.T. ** More Turneroid lies - he lies, he lies, he lies ....... Canberra is full of public service ****heads. .......... Phil |
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#21
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A jumped up tech who sniffed too many solder fumes and says FFFFFF all day.
No capacity to judge anything good when he sees it. Patrick Turner wrote: Its obvious to everyone that whenever the facts are explained to Phil, his reponse is :- ** More Turneroid lies - he lies, he lies, he lies ....... Canberra is full of public service ****heads. .......... Phil And hardly anyone leaves the town on Friday, and in fact there is a huge traffic flow into Canberra for the weekend. Phil the Chimp has no clue. The state goverments employ far more "public service f---heads", along with local councils, statutory bodies, and federal bodies stationed in state capitol cities. Let me know when you get your facts correct. But there is at least one "electronics service f---head" living in Sydney. Patrick Turner. |
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#22
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Were did he say that and how is it related to the other comments?
Just more ranting from phil. When you look in the mirrot what do you see? The Turneriod has a highly affluent community all around him and NO idea that the rest of Australia is very different - then he has the unmitigated GALL to pretend he lives in some kind of typical small town. Phil Allison wrote: "Patrick Turner" Its obvious to everyone that whenever the facts are explained to Phil, his reponse is :- ** The Turneroid would not know a fact if one bit him on the end of his dick. He does not deal in facts - just his demented misconceptions about everything. ** More Turneroid lies - he lies, he lies, he lies ....... Canberra is full of public service ****heads. .......... Phil And hardly anyone leaves the town on Friday, and in fact there is a huge traffic flow into Canberra for the weekend. ** ROTFLMAO - more lies, more lies. The state governments employ far more "public service f---heads", along with local councils, statutory bodies, and federal bodies stationed in state capitol cities. ** The Turneroid scumbag cannot even grasp the simple idea of a percentage. If the Federal Govt moved its offices and Parliament out of Canberra then the soulless dump would be a ghost town inside a week. The Turneriod has a highly affluent community all around him and NO idea that the rest of Australia is very different - then he has the unmitigated GALL to pretend he lives in some kind of typical small town. ............ Phil |
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#23
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God two Phills its too much to bear.
Paul roughplanet wrote: "George Orwell" wrote in message ... EXECUTIVE SUMMARY FOR THOSE WITH LIVES AND FRIENDS: snip HERE IS THE FULL STORY IF YOU HAVE THE TIME AND THE INCLINATION: Well, well, 'Andre' is now 'George Orwell'. His rantings, which I'm sure most people WON'T have either the time or the inclination, to read, have been removed to protect the innocent. Who said that no-one has cloned a human being? If 'Andre Jute' isn't a clone of Phil Allison (or vice versa), then they're the next best thing, or should that be the next WORST thing? ruff |
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#24
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yes thats right I wasted my time giving him chance to put something up. Rather all
he can ever do is knock down in the fashion you illustrate. Its hardly the case that his system is anything special, but he wont hear that. Hes deaf from years of ranting. andrejuteisanidiot@lasttimeireplytoaphilallisonclo ne wrote: On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:50:48 GMT, paul james wrote: And you do Phil?. All you can ever do is try to knock over people down when you clearly have nothing of your own to add. your more like bacteria devouring everything in your sight. It's alot easier for Phil to knock something down than it is for him to ever offer an idea. Especially since most of thoughts come from (the now late) Peter Walker. It's also an easy way to feel important and special in a group, by bad mouthing evrything in sight to sound like an expert, especially if you have little or nothing to actually contribute..as far as recommending components outside of the quad factory,JH factory, or from the sony factory of 20 years ago. |
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#25
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"paul james" wrote in message ... ** Paul, Paul .... anyone home ???? You are a dumb little prick Paul. Go masturbate over your latest set of cables. Then tell everyone at RAO how you enjoyed that. .......... Phil |
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#26
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"paul james" wrote in message ... ** Paul, Paul .... anyone home ???? You are a dumb little prick Paul. Go masturbate over your latest set of cables. Then tell everyone at RAO how you enjoyed that. .......... Phil |
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#27
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"paul james" ** Paul, Paul .... anyone home ???? You are a dumb little prick Paul. Go masturbate over your latest set of cables. Then tell everyone at RAO how you enjoyed that. .......... Phil |
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#28
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"paul james" ** Paul, Paul .... anyone home ???? You are a dumb little prick Paul. Go masturbate over your latest set of cables. Then tell everyone at RAO how you enjoyed that. .......... Phil |
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#29
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"paul james" ** Paul, Paul .... anyone home ???? You are a dumb little prick Paul. Go masturbate over your latest set of cables. Then tell everyone at RAO how you enjoyed that. .......... Phil |
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#30
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"paul james" ** Paul, Paul .... anyone home ???? You are a dumb little prick Paul. Go masturbate over your latest set of cables. Then tell everyone at RAO how you enjoyed that. .......... Phil |
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#31
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How orginal your programs now so small you can only copy your own small
minded thoughts. Not even a half wit, but no wit at all. Phil the whole worlds laughing at you but you cant see it. Phil Allison wrote: "paul james" ** Paul, Paul .... anyone home ???? You are a dumb little prick Paul. Go masturbate over your latest set of cables. Then tell everyone at RAO how you enjoyed that. ......... Phil |
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#32
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"paul james" ** Paul, Paul .... anyone home ???? You are a dumb little prick Paul. Go masturbate over your latest set of cables. Then tell everyone at RAO how you enjoyed that. .......... Phil |
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#33
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"Phil Allison" wrote in message . au...
Go masturbate over your latest set of cables. Then tell everyone at RAO how you enjoyed that. Getting carried away with our fantasies again Phil dear. MMAMP31AJ |
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#34
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#35
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That's what I like about you, Phil. You always answer so brilliantly. You're
the only one I knows who writes the same diatribe and ad hominem attacks on the person as opposed to the technical issue at hand. You obviously want to be a big boy so bad, but unfortunately the best you can muster is toss you hi-heel shoes at someone from behind a bush. Jealousy is a powerful motivator. It will also eat you up alive. BTW: are you married and do you have children or are you still living with your marme? west "Phil Allison" wrote in message u... "john" wrote in message ... To be perfectly frank, some dealers will sell you items that make the most profit for them, there are of course very good informative, helpful dealers that will listen to to what you are seeking and point you in the right direction. Simply Hi Fi in Perth is such a place. You seem to have some sort of vendetta against Atma-Sphere, I certainly dont against your amps. Simply let the audiophile decide. If you have heard say the SoundLAB M-1s with the Atma-sphere MA-2 then i am sure you would appreciate that for the first time in your life you would be hearing something Unique and Wonderful. John ** John has swallowed not only the salesman, but also the catalogue, the brochure and all the **** contained therein. He has, no doubt, a cast iron stomach - but no brain of his own at all. ........... Phil |
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#36
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"west" "Phil Allison" wrote in message u... "john" wrote in message ... To be perfectly frank, some dealers will sell you items that make the most profit for them, there are of course very good informative, helpful dealers that will listen to to what you are seeking and point you in the right direction. Simply Hi Fi in Perth is such a place. You seem to have some sort of vendetta against Atma-Sphere, I certainly dont against your amps. Simply let the audiophile decide. If you have heard say the SoundLAB M-1s with the Atma-sphere MA-2 then i am sure you would appreciate that for the first time in your life you would be hearing something Unique and Wonderful. John ** John has swallowed not only the salesman, but also the catalogue, the brochure and all the **** contained therein. He has, no doubt, a cast iron stomach - but no brain of his own at all. That's what I like about you, Phil. You always answer so brilliantly. ** I try. .......... Phil |
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