[Andy[_11_]]

On Sat 08 Nov08 14:39, Turk182 wrote:
On 8 Nov, 14:17, "Retired" wrote:
"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Tue 04 Nov08 17:01, Turk182 wrote
On 1 Nov, 21:33, mr jones wrote:

THREAD STARTED IN UK.LEGAL
UK.TELECOM ADDED
THEN UK.COMP.HARDWARE + REC.AUDIO.TECH


I strongly advise recording conversations, telephone or
otherwise with anyone you are doing business with especially
power companies, banks, garages, builders, double glazing,
insurance and financial companies etc.

Record any person you are in dispute with.

Also record police, doctors, hospitals and anyone who may claim
you didn't tell them something that you did, or who may fail to
act on the information you give with potential serious
consequences.

Always carefully date and time your recordings and be prepared
to store them for a long time as it can be years later that you
wish you had. * *
Turk182

Can anyone suggest the best / sensibly priced equipment for
achieving this?

http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/2581_WS-320M.htm
This is also available with less though adequate memory if you want
to bring the price down. The unit makes excellent stereo recordings
of live conversation.

Shop around for the best price - Olympus used to offer a 3 year free
replacement guarantee with it - I don't know if they still do.
Operates with just 1 AAA battery.

And with this:
http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/25...ne_Pick-up.htm

you have an ideal way of recording the calls you make or receive on
both landline and mobile phones. (Be careful with the little rubber
grommet on the earpiece - it can fall off although they do put a
spare in the box).

Other people may have far more economical solutions.

Turk182


Hello Turk182, you make some extremely interesting points in this thread
and I have learnt a lot from you.


DICTATION/MUSIC MACHINES

I too would be inclined recommend a dictation machine although I would
very much like to know about competitive machines. I know Olympus quite
well but not Sony who also enjoy a good reputation.

For some reason Olympus machines seem to get marketed long after
replacement models have been launched. Perhaps it's a tribute to the way
they hold their value that old Olympus machines are still sold new but it
does mean some old stuff sold long after their best.

There is a later model of the machine you mentioned and I would go for
the later model. There are all sorts of subtle performance improvements
between older and newer. This is the model:

http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/2581_WS-321M.htm

The other models WM-331M and WM-311M differ only in their memory capacity
and memory can NOT be upgraded. The cost premium of such a recorder was
about 30 or 40% above recording MP3 player/recorder. As the MP3 players
have fallen in price the Olympuses have resolutely stayed close to their
launch price and this means they are at least twice the price of a
comparable MP3 model. That difference is really a bit too much to
swallow.

Important features on that machine for this sort of work is: USB
connection to PC, fast forward, index points, reasonable ergonomics,
earphone socket can monitor while recording, voice activation (may be
useful), progress bar, etc. But ... the sensitive mics will record any
handling noise, the recording are in Microsoft WMA format, the display it
too small for a quick view when used covertly, the ergonomics could be
better. Amazon UK and Amazon US have lots of rather good user reviews
and the US site Newegg has some too.

AFAICT the following model is similar to as the range I refer to but in
mono and without the music player features. Of course, Olympus may have
reworked the internal electronics when they took out the music player and
so it may perform differently. I would GUESS not.

http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/2581_ws-110.htm

I am not a fan of the cheaper Olympus VN range as it is old and being
propped up by new launches. Models must use Olympus's special software to
download the recordings which is a real pain. The recordings are made in
CELP (which is fine for voice) and then converted to WAV by the special
software when transferred to the PC. Models are chunky which makes them
very easy to handle but the layout of the display is very poor indeed.

http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/2581_VN-3100PC.htm


MUSIC MACHINES

ISTR that iRiver made some attactively specified machines but they too
can be expensive. Was there a model T20 or T30 from them?

Also I was starting to look at Creative's Muvo but didn't get far.

There are recording wrist watches at about £100 but they are far too
bulky at the moment.

Nowadays there may by some tempting voice recorders in the video-screen
models designed for replaying "MP4" video files. Those players are in is
a competitive marketand prices are lower than for the Olympuses. However
they may lack many standard voice recorder features. It don't know. CAN
ANYBODY ADVISE PLEASE?


MICROPHONE

The Olympus TP-7 mic (approx £18) you mention is such a gem that every
Olympus owner should consider having one but, to be fair, the mic really
struggles to properly interface with these recorders. I think the mic is
underbiased (not enough voltage coming from the mic socket to drive the
electret mic capsule properly). So there is a great deal of modulation
("it's all loud" for those not familiar with modulation) and consequently
the dynamic range is too small. Attentuating the mic would lose
sensitivity but may work well enough to sort out the problem. A good
solution would be to add a "battery box" which provides greater voltage
to the mic but these are rare and you probably have to make your own.
But all this is messy and a different mic is probably the right solution.

CAN ANYONE SUGGEST A HALF-DECENT MIC TO USE? I can't afford one of those
overpriced Olympus mics (about £55).

On the PC you will need a audio editor to cut out all the useless silent
parts of recording or th elong ultra-irrelevant parts. The WMA files
(above) may not be readable with some common audio editors. Also never
delete the original file.

I'm not sure of the best way to replay the audio and seek a loud enough
quality player to replay extracts to a small group of 4 or 5 people. I
had though of burning to a CD-ROM but I think flash memory players may be
quite readily available.

One way of cutting through all these consideration about this chain of:
recorder- mic- connection- software- audio- editor
may be to get palmtop PC. How much would one of those be and how good
would the results be? That would be an easy item to justify putting on a
meeting desk and then making a recording.

All for now.
Mr Jones


PS: The following are some points which I personally find useful. Of
course YMMV! Keep a good note of the date/time stamp and ideally you
would have started or ended the recording by speaking the date. If you
are using a portable recorder worn on the body then ideally use two
recorders (one in a bag perhaps) to overcome the handling noise blotting
out speech at critical moments which I find tend to be when a lot of arm-
waving and jumping about occurs! Small recorders can be hidden in an A4
ringbinder or other file. In the home these considerations aren't
necessary but are useful if you attend a meeting and want to record it
electronically rather than make written notes. For solid state recorders
there is no practical way for others to detect your recorder and any
challenge saying you have been detected is a bluff. Always start your
recording before you get on the premises to give a lower chance of
detection and also you will be making a note of off-the-cuff remarks of
passers-by which can turn out to be surprisingly valuable. Tape over any
LEDs to stop them showing. Record at the highest quality (note that even
similar models from one manufacturer may have different specs for their
top quality recordings ~ look very, very closely at the figures if you
want to properly compare recording quality/duration). Never use a
recorder unless you have practised and then practised some more ~ get to
know the machine really well and can operate it without looking. If you
get a reputation for recording then take a machine and lay it on the
table when you ask permission ~ if they refuse to let you record the
meeting (probably because it's particularly contentious) then switch off
the machine on the table but keep the other bodyworn/bagcarried machine
running. I haven't tried it but it's said an untwisted or lightly twisted
pair of wires may be ok for a short distance and may allow discreet mic
positoning on the body. Moleskin fabric for the foot (eg Scholl brand)
is said to be good to minimise rubbing noise of clothes on the mic
capsule.

And so on. Jeeze, I should write a web page on all this but I am sure
others will have their own equally valuable tips which I would like to
hear about!!







--

Updating crosspost (kept to four or less)...hope it's ok.
Low traffic uk.gov.social-work replaced with uk.comp.hardware.
Added rec.audio.tech.

[Turk182]

On 9 Nov, 12:30, Andy wrote:
On Sat 08 Nov08 14:39, Turk182 wrote:





On 8 Nov, 14:17, "Retired" wrote:
"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Tue 04 Nov08 17:01, Turk182 wrote
On 1 Nov, 21:33, mr jones wrote:

THREAD STARTED IN UK.LEGAL
UK.TELECOM ADDED
THEN UK.COMP.HARDWARE + REC.AUDIO.TECH

I strongly advise recording conversations, telephone or
otherwise with anyone you are doing business with especially
power companies, banks, garages, builders, double glazing,
insurance and financial companies etc.

Record any person you are in dispute with.

Also record police, doctors, hospitals and anyone who may claim
you didn't tell them something that you did, or who may fail to
act on the information you give with potential serious
consequences.

Always carefully date and time your recordings and be prepared
to store them for a long time as it can be years later that you
wish you had. * *
Turk182

Can anyone suggest the best / sensibly priced equipment for
achieving this?

http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/2581_WS-320M.htm
This is also available with less though adequate memory if you want
to bring the price down. *The unit makes excellent stereo recordings
of live conversation.

Shop around for the best price - Olympus used to offer a 3 year free
replacement guarantee with it - I don't know if they still do.
Operates with just 1 AAA battery.

And with this:
http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/25...ne_Pick-up.htm

you have an ideal way of recording the calls you make or receive on
both landline and mobile phones. *(Be careful with the little rubber
grommet on the earpiece - it can fall off although they do put a
spare in the box).

Other people may have far more economical solutions.

Turk182

Hello Turk182, you make some extremely interesting points in this thread
and I have learnt a lot from you.

DICTATION/MUSIC MACHINES

I too would be inclined recommend a dictation machine although I would
very much like to know about competitive machines. I know Olympus quite
well but not Sony who also enjoy a good reputation.

For some reason Olympus machines seem to get marketed long after
replacement models have been launched. Perhaps it's a tribute to the way
they hold their value that old Olympus machines are still sold new but it
does mean some old stuff sold long after their best.

There is a later model of the machine you mentioned and I would go for
the later model. There are all sorts of subtle performance improvements
between older and newer. This is the model:

http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/2581_WS-321M.htm

The other models WM-331M and WM-311M differ only in their memory capacity
and memory can NOT be upgraded. The cost premium of such a recorder was
about 30 or 40% above recording MP3 player/recorder. *As the MP3 players
have fallen in price the Olympuses have resolutely stayed close to their
launch price and this means they are at least twice the price of a
comparable MP3 model. That difference is really a bit too much to
swallow.

Important features on that machine for this sort of work is: *USB
connection to PC, fast forward, index points, reasonable ergonomics,
earphone socket can monitor while recording, voice activation (may be
useful), progress bar, etc. But ... the sensitive mics will record any
handling noise, the recording are in Microsoft WMA format, the display it
too small for a quick view when used covertly, the ergonomics could be
better. *Amazon UK and Amazon US have lots of rather good user reviews
and the US site Newegg has some too.

AFAICT the following model is similar to as the range I refer to but in
mono and without the music player features. Of course, Olympus may have
reworked the internal electronics when they took out the music player and
so it may perform differently. I would GUESS not.

http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/2581_ws-110.htm

I am not a fan of the cheaper Olympus VN range as it is old and being
propped up by new launches. Models must use Olympus's special software to
download the recordings which is a real pain. *The recordings are made in
CELP (which is fine for voice) and then converted to WAV by the special
software when transferred to the PC. Models are chunky which makes them
very easy to handle but the layout of the display is very poor indeed.

http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/2581_VN-3100PC.htm* * * * * *

MUSIC MACHINES

ISTR that iRiver made some attactively specified machines but they too
can be expensive. *Was there a model T20 or T30 from them?

Also I was starting to look at Creative's Muvo but didn't get far.

There are recording wrist watches at about £100 but they are far too
bulky at the moment.

Nowadays there may by some tempting voice recorders in the video-screen
models designed for replaying "MP4" video files. Those players are in is
a competitive marketand prices are lower than for the Olympuses. *However
they may lack many standard voice recorder features. *It don't know. *CAN
ANYBODY ADVISE PLEASE?

MICROPHONE

The Olympus TP-7 mic (approx £18) you mention is such a gem that every
Olympus owner should consider having one but, to be fair, the mic really
struggles to properly interface with these recorders. I think the mic is
underbiased (not enough voltage coming from the mic socket to drive the
electret mic capsule properly). So there is a great deal of modulation
("it's all loud" for those not familiar with modulation) and consequently
the dynamic range is too small. *Attentuating the mic would lose
sensitivity but may work well enough to sort out the problem. *A good
solution would be to add a "battery box" which provides greater voltage
to the mic but these are rare and you probably have to make your own. *
But all this is messy and a different mic is probably the right solution.

CAN ANYONE SUGGEST A HALF-DECENT MIC TO USE? *I can't afford one of those
overpriced Olympus mics (about £55).

On the PC you will need a audio editor to cut out all the useless silent
parts of recording or th elong ultra-irrelevant parts. *The WMA files
(above) may not be readable with some common audio editors. *Also never
delete the original file.

I'm not sure of the best way to replay the audio and seek a loud enough
quality player to replay extracts to a small group of 4 or 5 people. I
had though of burning to a CD-ROM but I think flash memory players may be
quite readily available.

One way of cutting through all these consideration about this chain of:
recorder- mic- connection- software- audio- editor
may be to get palmtop PC. How much would one of those be and how good
would the results be? *That would be an easy item to justify putting on a
meeting desk and then making a recording.

All for now.
Mr Jones

PS: *The following are some points which I personally find useful. Of
course YMMV! *Keep a good note of the date/time stamp and ideally you
would have started or ended the recording by speaking the date. If you
are using a portable recorder worn on the body then ideally use two
recorders (one in a bag perhaps) to overcome the handling noise blotting
out speech at critical moments which I find tend to be when a lot of arm-
waving and jumping about occurs! *Small recorders can be hidden in an A4
ringbinder or other file. *In the home these considerations aren't
necessary but are useful if you attend a meeting and want to record it
electronically rather than make written notes. For solid state recorders
there is no practical way for others to detect your recorder and any
challenge saying you have been detected is a bluff. Always start your
recording before you get on the premises to give a lower chance of
detection and also you will be making a note of off-the-cuff remarks of
passers-by which can turn out to be surprisingly valuable. Tape over any
LEDs to stop them showing. Record at the highest quality (note that even
similar models from one manufacturer may have different specs for their
top quality recordings ~ look very, very closely at the figures if you
want to properly compare recording quality/duration). *Never use a
recorder unless you have practised and then practised some more ~ get to
know the machine really well and can operate it without looking. If you
get a reputation for recording then take a machine and lay it on the
table when you ask permission ~ if they refuse to let you record the
meeting (probably because it's particularly contentious) then switch off
the machine on the table but keep the other bodyworn/bagcarried machine
running. I haven't tried it but it's said an untwisted or lightly twisted
pair of wires may be ok for a short distance and may allow discreet mic
positoning on the body. *Moleskin fabric for the foot (eg Scholl brand)
is said to be good to minimise rubbing noise of clothes on the mic
capsule. *

And so on. *Jeeze, I should write a web page on all this but I am sure
others will have their own equally valuable tips which I would like to
hear about!!

--

Updating crosspost (kept to four or less)...hope it's ok.
Low traffic uk.gov.social-work replaced with uk.comp.hardware.
Added rec.audio.tech.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Andy, you seem to know more about technical matters than I do, so I
have been interested in the information you have given. Thanks.

Can I just raise one word of caution on ‘editing’? If you record a
conversation, to be in anyway credible legally it must be fully
unedited. It would completely destroy a case if records show that a
conversation was, say 12 minutes long, but your recording was only 10
minutes long. Although you may give assurances that you only edited
away time consuming silences, you may be accused of editing away words
or sentences too. A fatal mistake when all you are trying to prove
honestly is what actually was happening. Anyway, silences also tell a
story, such as how long a person kept you hanging around and whether
there was time for them to have made the enquiry they claimed they had
- so I would not even begin to go down that road.

This is a fantastic tool for not being turned over by the malpractice
of others and for not being tricked by salesmen etc - so to keep
yourself on the side of right, you must ensure that you are impeccable
with your handling of the 'evidence' and the keeping of records of
day, time duration.

It goes without saying that writing letters and sending them recorded
delivery is also a very important part of establishing a factual
record of the progress of a dispute. Once I used to find such things
tiresome, but they really have a way of bringing Goliaths to their
knees. Factual updates, made at the appropriate time, without being
too confrontational are excellent evidence later. When backed up by
telephone evidence they can really expose dodgy tactics. I used this
in dealing with a kitchen company who had fleeced a pensioner. At the
end, they almost came out with their hands up and offered the man a
50% refund. They paid it, and then a few months later they went bust.

Good luck.

Turk182

[Paul Nutteing (valid email address in post script )]

Turk182 wrote in message
...
On 9 Nov, 12:30, Andy wrote:
On Sat 08 Nov08 14:39, Turk182 wrote:





On 8 Nov, 14:17, "Retired" wrote:
"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Tue 04 Nov08 17:01, Turk182 wrote
On 1 Nov, 21:33, mr jones wrote:

Andy, you seem to know more about technical matters than I do, so I
have been interested in the information you have given. Thanks.

Can I just raise one word of caution on 'editing'? If you record a
conversation, to be in anyway credible legally it must be fully
unedited. It would completely destroy a case if records show that a
conversation was, say 12 minutes long, but your recording was only 10
minutes long. Although you may give assurances that you only edited
away time consuming silences, you may be accused of editing away words
or sentences too. A fatal mistake when all you are trying to prove
honestly is what actually was happening. Anyway, silences also tell a
story, such as how long a person kept you hanging around and whether
there was time for them to have made the enquiry they claimed they had
- so I would not even begin to go down that road.

This is a fantastic tool for not being turned over by the malpractice
of others and for not being tricked by salesmen etc - so to keep
yourself on the side of right, you must ensure that you are impeccable
with your handling of the 'evidence' and the keeping of records of
day, time duration.

It goes without saying that writing letters and sending them recorded
delivery is also a very important part of establishing a factual
record of the progress of a dispute. Once I used to find such things
tiresome, but they really have a way of bringing Goliaths to their
knees. Factual updates, made at the appropriate time, without being
too confrontational are excellent evidence later. When backed up by
telephone evidence they can really expose dodgy tactics. I used this
in dealing with a kitchen company who had fleeced a pensioner. At the
end, they almost came out with their hands up and offered the man a
50% refund. They paid it, and then a few months later they went bust.

Good luck.

Turk182


---------------

And on another legal point, if recording from
telephone. Continue to record while dialling
1471 or equivalent, immediately after the call
, DO NOT switch off the recorder in between time.
Whether full CLI or withneld etc, record it as
one continuous record, as it timelogs (not datelog though)
if nothing else

ps
What they aren't telling you about DNA profiles
and what Special Branch don't want you to know.
http://www.nutteing.chat.ru/dnapr.htm
or nutteingd in a search engine.

[mr jones (Andy)]

On Sun 09 Nov08 14:15, Turk182 wrote in

:

On 9 Nov, 12:30, Andy wrote:
On Sat 08 Nov08 14:39, Turk182 wrote:





On 8 Nov, 14:17, "Retired" wrote:
"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Tue 04 Nov08 17:01, Turk182 wrote
On 1 Nov, 21:33, mr jones wrote:

THREAD STARTED IN UK.LEGAL
UK.TELECOM ADDED
THEN UK.COMP.HARDWARE + REC.AUDIO.TECH

I strongly advise recording conversations, telephone or
otherwise with anyone you are doing business with especially
power companies, banks, garages, builders, double glazing,
insurance and financial companies etc.

Record any person you are in dispute with.

Also record police, doctors, hospitals and anyone who may
claim you didn't tell them something that you did, or who may
fail to act on the information you give with potential
serious consequences.

Always carefully date and time your recordings and be
prepared to store them for a long time as it can be years
later that you wish you had. * *
Turk182

Can anyone suggest the best / sensibly priced equipment for
achieving this?

http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/2581_WS-320M.htm
This is also available with less though adequate memory if you
want to bring the price down. *The unit makes excellent stereo
recordings of live conversation.

Shop around for the best price - Olympus used to offer a 3 year
free replacement guarantee with it - I don't know if they still
do. Operates with just 1 AAA battery.

And with this:
http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/25...ne_Pick-up.htm

you have an ideal way of recording the calls you make or receive
on both landline and mobile phones. *(Be careful with the little
rubber grommet on the earpiece - it can fall off although they do
put a spare in the box).

Other people may have far more economical solutions.

Turk182

Hello Turk182, you make some extremely interesting points in this
thread and I have learnt a lot from you.

DICTATION/MUSIC MACHINES

I too would be inclined recommend a dictation machine although I
would very much like to know about competitive machines. I know
Olympus quite well but not Sony who also enjoy a good reputation.

For some reason Olympus machines seem to get marketed long after
replacement models have been launched. Perhaps it's a tribute to
the way they hold their value that old Olympus machines are still
sold new but it does mean some old stuff sold long after their
best.

There is a later model of the machine you mentioned and I would go
for the later model. There are all sorts of subtle performance
improvements between older and newer. This is the model:

http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/2581_WS-321M.htm

The other models WM-331M and WM-311M differ only in their memory
capacity and memory can NOT be upgraded. The cost premium of such a
recorder was about 30 or 40% above recording MP3 player/recorder.
*As the MP3 player
s
have fallen in price the Olympuses have resolutely stayed close to
their launch price and this means they are at least twice the price
of a comparable MP3 model. That difference is really a bit too much
to swallow.

Important features on that machine for this sort of work is: *USB
connection to PC, fast forward, index points, reasonable
ergonomics, earphone socket can monitor while recording, voice
activation (may be useful), progress bar, etc. But ... the
sensitive mics will record any handling noise, the recording are in
Microsoft WMA format, the display it too small for a quick view
when used covertly, the ergonomics could be better. *Amazon UK and
Amazon US have lots of rather good user reviews and the US site
Newegg has some too.

AFAICT the following model is similar to as the range I refer to
but in mono and without the music player features. Of course,
Olympus may have reworked the internal electronics when they took
out the music player and so it may perform differently. I would
GUESS not.

http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/2581_ws-110.htm

I am not a fan of the cheaper Olympus VN range as it is old and
being propped up by new launches. Models must use Olympus's special
software to download the recordings which is a real pain. *The
recordings are made
in
CELP (which is fine for voice) and then converted to WAV by the
special software when transferred to the PC. Models are chunky
which makes them very easy to handle but the layout of the display
is very poor indeed.

http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/2581_VN-3100PC.htm* * * * *
*

MUSIC MACHINES

ISTR that iRiver made some attactively specified machines but they
too can be expensive. *Was there a model T20 or T30 from them?

Also I was starting to look at Creative's Muvo but didn't get far.

There are recording wrist watches at about £100 but they are far
too bulky at the moment.

Nowadays there may by some tempting voice recorders in the
video-screen models designed for replaying "MP4" video files. Those
players are in is a competitive marketand prices are lower than for
the Olympuses. *Howev
er
they may lack many standard voice recorder features. *It don't
know.
*CAN
ANYBODY ADVISE PLEASE?

MICROPHONE

The Olympus TP-7 mic (approx £18) you mention is such a gem that
every Olympus owner should consider having one but, to be fair, the
mic really struggles to properly interface with these recorders. I
think the mic is underbiased (not enough voltage coming from the
mic socket to drive the electret mic capsule properly). So there is
a great deal of modulation ("it's all loud" for those not familiar
with modulation) and consequently the dynamic range is too small.
*Attentuating the mic would lose sensitivity but may work well
enough to sort out the problem. *A good solution would be to add a
"battery box" which provides greater voltage to the mic but these
are rare and you probably have to make your own. * But all this is
messy and a different mic is probably the right solution.

CAN ANYONE SUGGEST A HALF-DECENT MIC TO USE? *I can't afford one of
tho
se
overpriced Olympus mics (about £55).

On the PC you will need a audio editor to cut out all the useless
silent parts of recording or th elong ultra-irrelevant parts. *The
WMA files (above) may not be readable with some common audio
editors. *Also never delete the original file.

I'm not sure of the best way to replay the audio and seek a loud
enough quality player to replay extracts to a small group of 4 or 5
people. I had though of burning to a CD-ROM but I think flash
memory players may be quite readily available.

One way of cutting through all these consideration about this chain
of: recorder- mic- connection- software- audio- editor
may be to get palmtop PC. How much would one of those be and how
good would the results be? *That would be an easy item to justify
putting on
a
meeting desk and then making a recording.

All for now.
Mr Jones

PS: *The following are some points which I personally find useful.
Of course YMMV! *Keep a good note of the date/time stamp and
ideally you would have started or ended the recording by speaking
the date. If you are using a portable recorder worn on the body
then ideally use two recorders (one in a bag perhaps) to overcome
the handling noise blotting out speech at critical moments which I
find tend to be when a lot of arm- waving and jumping about occurs!
*Small recorders can be hidden in an A
4
ringbinder or other file. *In the home these considerations aren't
necessary but are useful if you attend a meeting and want to record
it electronically rather than make written notes. For solid state
recorders there is no practical way for others to detect your
recorder and any challenge saying you have been detected is a
bluff. Always start your recording before you get on the premises
to give a lower chance of detection and also you will be making a
note of off-the-cuff remarks of passers-by which can turn out to be
surprisingly valuable. Tape over any LEDs to stop them showing.
Record at the highest quality (note that even similar models from
one manufacturer may have different specs for their top quality
recordings ~ look very, very closely at the figures if you want to
properly compare recording quality/duration). *Never use a recorder
unless you have practised and then practised some more ~ get to
know the machine really well and can operate it without looking. If
you get a reputation for recording then take a machine and lay it
on the table when you ask permission ~ if they refuse to let you
record the meeting (probably because it's particularly contentious)
then switch off the machine on the table but keep the other
bodyworn/bagcarried machine running. I haven't tried it but it's
said an untwisted or lightly twisted pair of wires may be ok for a
short distance and may allow discreet mic positoning on the body.
*Moleskin fabric for the foot (eg Scholl brand) is said to be good
to minimise rubbing noise of clothes on the mic capsule. *

And so on. *Jeeze, I should write a web page on all this but I am
sure others will have their own equally valuable tips which I would
like to hear about!!

--

Updating crosspost (kept to four or less)...hope it's ok.
Low traffic uk.gov.social-work replaced with uk.comp.hardware.
Added rec.audio.tech.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Andy, you seem to know more about technical matters than I do, so I
have been interested in the information you have given. Thanks.

Can I just raise one word of caution on ‘editing’? If you record a
conversation, to be in anyway credible legally it must be fully
unedited. It would completely destroy a case if records show that a
conversation was, say 12 minutes long, but your recording was only
10 minutes long. Although you may give assurances that you only
edited away time consuming silences, you may be accused of editing
away words or sentences too. A fatal mistake when all you are
trying to prove honestly is what actually was happening. Anyway,
silences also tell a story, such as how long a person kept you
hanging around and whether there was time for them to have made the
enquiry they claimed they had - so I would not even begin to go down
that road.

This is a fantastic tool for not being turned over by the
malpractice of others and for not being tricked by salesmen etc - so
to keep yourself on the side of right, you must ensure that you are
impeccable with your handling of the 'evidence' and the keeping of
records of day, time duration.

It goes without saying that writing letters and sending them
recorded delivery is also a very important part of establishing a
factual record of the progress of a dispute. Once I used to find
such things tiresome, but they really have a way of bringing
Goliaths to their knees. Factual updates, made at the appropriate
time, without being too confrontational are excellent evidence
later. When backed up by telephone evidence they can really expose
dodgy tactics. I used this in dealing with a kitchen company who
had fleeced a pensioner. At the end, they almost came out with
their hands up and offered the man a 50% refund. They paid it, and
then a few months later they went bust.

Good luck.
Turk182

Hello

(Sorry if I've muddled this thread by posting as Mr Jones and also as
Andy. I had some trouble with posts not appearing and when that happened
and I fiddled to fixed it, I forgot which name I had used!)

Although I do make recordings and have mentioned my observations based on
nothing much more than my own practical considerations, I do bow to your
technical knowledge.

Your point about not removing parts of a recording is important. I say
keep the original and then make a copy of it to work on. I usually need
a short clip to quickly show the actual point I am trying to prove but I
also know the whole recording will be needed if a serious look at the
problem takes place. Paul Nutteing has added that recording the whole of
any phone call including the dialling tones is valuable and also 1471, if
appropriate.

All this means there's usually a significant proliferation of versions of
a single audio file! A good indexing system is really important. Some
digital recorders (like my Olympuses) have non-standard ways of recording
time and date stamps in the audio file and what I do is I manually write
these into the file's name before those special portions of the file
which hold the proprietary date/time stamp get lost in any editing or
copying. I try to have folders for original recordings and folders for
working versions but it's hard work keeping track of what is what
especially when you have to break off in the middle of editing or
transcribing a file to text.

I have learnt not to rely on XP's creation date or modified date as these
have some unexpected quirks which can occur when handling the audio file.
(XP's third date stamp, access date, is useless.)

I reckon digital recordings are a bit awkward because they are prone to
allegations of manipulation. Luckily there is usually a lot of background
noise or hiss to prove the audio has not been doctored. In some ways
analogue is better for this because it is so noisy and the recordings
often have their own audio characteristics (fingerprint). However
analogue has so many other drawbacks that I would far prefer a digital
recording.

Any hints or tips (especially on recorders and mics) would still be most
welcome!

Mr Jones (Andy)

--

[Turk182]

On 10 Nov, 08:17, "Paul Nutteing (valid email address in post
script )" wrote:
Turk182 wrote in message

...
On 9 Nov, 12:30, Andy wrote: On Sat 08 Nov08 14:39, Turk182 wrote:

On 8 Nov, 14:17, "Retired" wrote:
"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Tue 04 Nov08 17:01, Turk182 wrote
On 1 Nov, 21:33, mr jones wrote:

Andy, you seem to know more about technical matters than I do, so I
have been interested in the information you have given. *Thanks.

Can I just raise one word of caution on 'editing'? *If you record a
conversation, to be in anyway credible legally it must be fully
unedited. *It would completely destroy a case if records show that a
conversation was, say 12 minutes long, but your recording was only 10
minutes long. * Although you may give assurances that you only edited
away time consuming silences, you may be accused of editing away words
or sentences too. *A fatal mistake when all you are trying to prove
honestly is what actually was happening. *Anyway, silences also tell a
story, such as how long a person kept you hanging around and whether
there was time for them to have made the enquiry they claimed they had
- so I would not even begin to go down that road.

This is a fantastic tool for not being turned over by the malpractice
of others and for not being tricked by salesmen etc - so to keep
yourself on the side of right, you must ensure that you are impeccable
with your handling of the 'evidence' and the keeping of records of
day, time duration.

It goes without saying that writing letters and sending them recorded
delivery is also a very important part of establishing a factual
record of the progress of a dispute. *Once I used to find such things
tiresome, but they really have a way of bringing Goliaths to their
knees. *Factual updates, made at the appropriate time, without being
too confrontational are excellent evidence later. *When backed up by
telephone evidence they can really expose dodgy tactics. *I used this
in dealing with a kitchen company who had fleeced a pensioner. *At the
end, they almost came out with their hands up and offered the man a
50% refund. *They paid it, and then a few months later they went bust.

Good luck.

Turk182

---------------

And on another legal point, if recording from
telephone. Continue to record while dialling
1471 or equivalent, immediately after the call
, DO NOT switch off the recorder in between time.
Whether full CLI or withneld etc, record it as
one continuous record, as it timelogs (not datelog though)
*if nothing else

ps
What they aren't telling you about DNA profiles
and what Special Branch don't want you to know.http://www.nutteing.chat.ru/dnapr.htm
or nutteingd in a search engine.

Spot on.