[Iain Churches]

Standing On the Outside, Looking In
(apologies to Neil Sedaka:-)



Greetings fellow RATs.

I have just received the following e-mail from a chap in Portugal
It is quite an interesting view of the subscribers on RAT as
others see us. It made me feel rather sad.

Iain


_________________________________________________


I have been following RAT since a few months, though I
have not made a post there.

Some of the writers seem OK and good knowledge in
audio things. Your own do make clear to be polite
and friendly. Others behave worse than pigs, and two
most common seem to be in need of immediate medical
treatments.

The group is small. I wonder there are not more
people.

I am interested in tube ampls, but my level of knowledge and
my English is not too high, even though I have good education
as a chemical enginneer. I have some books and have made
some experiement with simple circuits that I enjoy
very much.

I wish there was a hope to ask some question without
being jumped by those unpleasant people. How can I swim
in such a stormy sea?

[David R Brooks]

Iain Churches wrote:
Standing On the Outside, Looking In
(apologies to Neil Sedaka:-)



Greetings fellow RATs.

I have just received the following e-mail from a chap in Portugal
It is quite an interesting view of the subscribers on RAT as
others see us. It made me feel rather sad.

Iain


_________________________________________________


I have been following RAT since a few months, though I
have not made a post there.

Some of the writers seem OK and good knowledge in
audio things. Your own do make clear to be polite
and friendly. Others behave worse than pigs, and two
most common seem to be in need of immediate medical
treatments.

The group is small. I wonder there are not more
people.

I am interested in tube ampls, but my level of knowledge and
my English is not too high, even though I have good education
as a chemical enginneer. I have some books and have made
some experiement with simple circuits that I enjoy
very much.

I wish there was a hope to ask some question without
being jumped by those unpleasant people. How can I swim
in such a stormy sea?

He's definitely got a point, imho. I lurk here regularly, & learn many
useful things, but am reluctant to stick my head over the wall, because
of the personal abuse level. It's far the worst of any NG I read.

[Ian Bell]

Iain Churches wrote:

Standing On the Outside, Looking In
(apologies to Neil Sedaka:-)



Greetings fellow RATs.

I have just received the following e-mail from a chap in Portugal
It is quite an interesting view of the subscribers on RAT as
others see us. It made me feel rather sad.

Iain


_________________________________________________


I have been following RAT since a few months, though I
have not made a post there.

Some of the writers seem OK and good knowledge in
audio things. Your own do make clear to be polite
and friendly. Others behave worse than pigs, and two
most common seem to be in need of immediate medical
treatments.

The group is small. I wonder there are not more
people.

I am interested in tube ampls, but my level of knowledge and
my English is not too high, even though I have good education
as a chemical enginneer. I have some books and have made
some experiement with simple circuits that I enjoy
very much.

I wish there was a hope to ask some question without
being jumped by those unpleasant people. How can I swim
in such a stormy sea?

The simple answer is to join a moderated yahoo group such as vintage tubes -
find it he

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintage_tube/

Properly moderated and very civilised.

Ian

[Andre Jute]

Standing On the Outside, Looking In
rec.audio.tubes

Iain Churches wrote:

Standing On the Outside, Looking In
(apologies to Neil Sedaka:-)



Greetings fellow RATs.

I have just received the following e-mail from a chap in Portugal
It is quite an interesting view of the subscribers on RAT as
others see us. It made me feel rather sad.

Iain


_________________________________________________


I have been following RAT since a few months, though I
have not made a post there.

Some of the writers seem OK and good knowledge in
audio things. Your own do make clear to be polite
and friendly. Others behave worse than pigs, and two
most common seem to be in need of immediate medical
treatments.

The group is small. I wonder there are not more
people.

I am interested in tube ampls, but my level of knowledge and
my English is not too high, even though I have good education
as a chemical enginneer. I have some books and have made
some experiement with simple circuits that I enjoy
very much.

I wish there was a hope to ask some question without
being jumped by those unpleasant people. How can I swim
in such a stormy sea?

Hello there in Portugal:

I imagine you're talking about the treatment meted out to West
recently by Peter Wieck and Jon Yaeger when West dared ask a question.

The truth is, that sort of behaviour, while despicable, isn't new. Nor
is there much we can do about it on an open conference, at least in
the short term. (In the longer term we can drive such people out, but
the cure is thought by some people to be as unpleasant as the
disease.)

I've been on RAT a dozen years. The best advice I can give you is to
ask your question, take the answer from the good, proven posters, and
to ignore the sniping of the scum; certainly you should not reply to
them or try to reason with them because that only encourages them.

As for your English being poor, it looks perfectly serviceable to me,
and in any event this is an international conference; we do not have a
language proficiency qualification to post here.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

PS
Neil Sedaka, now there was a singer with rhythm in his voice... Thanks
for the reminder, Iain. I know several other engineers (not
electronic) whose hobby is tube amps but who won't post to RAT because
of the atmosphere. Sad, really.

[Eeyore]

Iain Churches wrote:

Standing On the Outside, Looking In
(apologies to Neil Sedaka:-)

Greetings fellow RATs.

I have just received the following e-mail from a chap in Portugal
It is quite an interesting view of the subscribers on RAT as
others see us. It made me feel rather sad.

Iain

_________________________________________________

I have been following RAT since a few months, though I
have not made a post there.

Some of the writers seem OK and good knowledge in
audio things. Your own do make clear to be polite
and friendly. Others behave worse than pigs, and two
most common seem to be in need of immediate medical
treatments.

The group is small. I wonder there are not more
people.

I am interested in tube ampls, but my level of knowledge and
my English is not too high, even though I have good education
as a chemical enginneer. I have some books and have made
some experiement with simple circuits that I enjoy
very much.

I wish there was a hope to ask some question without
being jumped by those unpleasant people. How can I swim
in such a stormy sea?

I would say he can make himself understood in English very well ! Better than
some English ppl I dare say.

Graham

[Eeyore]

David R Brooks wrote:

He's definitely got a point, imho.

I'd have to agree.


I lurk here regularly, & learn many
useful things, but am reluctant to stick my head over the wall, because
of the personal abuse level. It's far the worst of any NG I read.

You clearly haven't lived if you think it's bad in r.a.t ! You shouldn't include
the idiotic crossposts from r.a.o btw.

Graham

[MarkS]

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
. fi...
Standing On the Outside, Looking In
(apologies to Neil Sedaka:-)



Greetings fellow RATs.

I have just received the following e-mail from a chap in Portugal
It is quite an interesting view of the subscribers on RAT as
others see us. It made me feel rather sad.

Iain


_________________________________________________


I have been following RAT since a few months, though I
have not made a post there.

Some of the writers seem OK and good knowledge in
audio things. Your own do make clear to be polite
and friendly. Others behave worse than pigs, and two
most common seem to be in need of immediate medical
treatments.

The group is small. I wonder there are not more
people.

I am interested in tube ampls, but my level of knowledge and
my English is not too high, even though I have good education
as a chemical enginneer. I have some books and have made
some experiement with simple circuits that I enjoy
very much.

I wish there was a hope to ask some question without
being jumped by those unpleasant people. How can I swim
in such a stormy sea?


Hi Iain,
In reality, new comers are rarely "jumped" on RAT; at first anyway. It
appears to be more of a family affair I think; or maybe a disfunctional
family at that. Make no mistake, I am not singling out anyone, so no one
should make any assumptions. But, make sure you have your freakin' schematic
handy dammit! And it better be the right size if you do, dammit 8).
Best Regards,
Mark
ok, time to cork the Scotch.

[Patrick Turner]

Iain Churches wrote:

Standing On the Outside, Looking In
(apologies to Neil Sedaka:-)

Greetings fellow RATs.

I have just received the following e-mail from a chap in Portugal
It is quite an interesting view of the subscribers on RAT as
others see us. It made me feel rather sad.

Iain

_________________________________________________

I have been following RAT since a few months, though I
have not made a post there.

Some of the writers seem OK and good knowledge in
audio things. Your own do make clear to be polite
and friendly. Others behave worse than pigs, and two
most common seem to be in need of immediate medical
treatments.

The group is small. I wonder there are not more
people.

I am interested in tube ampls, but my level of knowledge and
my English is not too high, even though I have good education
as a chemical enginneer. I have some books and have made
some experiement with simple circuits that I enjoy
very much.

I wish there was a hope to ask some question without
being jumped by those unpleasant people. How can I swim
in such a stormy sea?

All of life is one long series of storms.

The melancholic attitude has us thinking someone is old,
and that they have let their panache of youth die.

I still enjoy being around young folks, and riding bicycles on roads
with
car drivers. the Internet is 40dB safer than my bicycle rides.

I'm still learning and arguing, and I hope to keep at until I die.
If ppl don't like it, too bad.

Patrick Turner.

[Iain Churches]

"David R Brooks" wrote in message
...
Iain Churches wrote:
Standing On the Outside, Looking In
(apologies to Neil Sedaka:-)



Greetings fellow RATs.

I have just received the following e-mail from a chap in Portugal
It is quite an interesting view of the subscribers on RAT as
others see us. It made me feel rather sad.

Iain


_________________________________________________


I have been following RAT since a few months, though I
have not made a post there.

Some of the writers seem OK and good knowledge in
audio things. Your own do make clear to be polite
and friendly. Others behave worse than pigs, and two
most common seem to be in need of immediate medical
treatments.

The group is small. I wonder there are not more
people.

I am interested in tube ampls, but my level of knowledge and
my English is not too high, even though I have good education
as a chemical enginneer. I have some books and have made
some experiement with simple circuits that I enjoy
very much.

I wish there was a hope to ask some question without
being jumped by those unpleasant people. How can I swim
in such a stormy sea?

He's definitely got a point, imho. I lurk here regularly, & learn many
useful things, but am reluctant to stick my head over the wall, because of
the personal abuse level.

I know ten others like you, David, from my colleagues
and aquaintances.

To remain healthy, a group like this needs people at all levels.
I am quite low down the foodchain on RAT, but even then I find
it interesting to read questions from the few who know even less
than I do, and think the matter through.

I agree that no-one is under any obligation to teach
anyone anything, and it is probably easier (and to some,
more fun) to snipe rather than post something rational, but
the enlargement of this group with people at all levels is
in the interest of us all in the longrun.

The OP is correct when he says that the group is actually
remarkably small, for the only tube audio group on Usenet.
We seem to have about ten core members. In the time I
have been here many good people have disappeared (either
gone to the great tube amp workshop in the sky- or to
closed groups)

It's far the worst of any NG I read.

I don't have time for any others really. I do however have
access to two closed groups (not moderated) The contrast
is quite remarkable - probably because they keep out the
lunatics who have no actual interest in the subject but whose
presence is purely to discourage others.


Iain

[Iain Churches]

"MarkS" wrote in message
nk.net...

Hi Iain,
In reality, new comers are rarely "jumped" on RAT; at first anyway. It
appears to be more of a family affair I think; or maybe a disfunctional
family at that. Make no mistake, I am not singling out anyone, so no one
should make any assumptions. But, make sure you have your freakin'
schematic handy dammit! And it better be the right size if you do, dammit
8).

Hi Mark. As this is a recreational group, it is to be expected that
with one exception, Patrick, there is no-one here who makes his
living from tube audio. Such people do exist - I was speaking to
one just a couple of days ago - but they have no presence here.

Information is much more accessible now that earlier. Much can be
found on line, and many good books that have ben out of print for
many years, have now reappeared. But still, is it useful and also
interesting to be able to enter into discussion with, and ask questions
of people who have a similar interest. This is where the strength of
a group like this could/should lay.

ok, time to cork the Scotch.

Pour one for me too, please -no ice:-)


Best regards
Iain

[WindsorFox]

Iain Churches wrote:
Standing On the Outside, Looking In
(apologies to Neil Sedaka:-)



Greetings fellow RATs.

I have just received the following e-mail from a chap in Portugal
It is quite an interesting view of the subscribers on RAT as
others see us. It made me feel rather sad.

Iain


_________________________________________________


I have been following RAT since a few months, though I
have not made a post there.

Some of the writers seem OK and good knowledge in
audio things. Your own do make clear to be polite
and friendly. Others behave worse than pigs, and two
most common seem to be in need of immediate medical
treatments.

The group is small. I wonder there are not more
people.

I am interested in tube ampls, but my level of knowledge and
my English is not too high, even though I have good education
as a chemical enginneer. I have some books and have made
some experiement with simple circuits that I enjoy
very much.

I wish there was a hope to ask some question without
being jumped by those unpleasant people. How can I swim
in such a stormy sea?


I'd say pop on some Nomex underwear and start asking. Ignore the
people that unhelpful and or unamusing replies. Some people don't have
the stomach for that though.

--
And if a cow had wheels,
it would be a milk truck. - Steve Linford

[Ian Iveson]

Iain Churches wrote

Standing On the Outside, Looking In
(apologies to Neil Sedaka:-)

Greetings fellow RATs.

I have just received the following e-mail from a chap in Portugal
It is quite an interesting view of the subscribers on RAT as
others see us. It made me feel rather sad.

Iain


_________________________________________________


I have been following RAT since a few months, though I
have not made a post there.

Some of the writers seem OK and good knowledge in
audio things. Your own do make clear to be polite
and friendly. Others behave worse than pigs, and two
most common seem to be in need of immediate medical
treatments.

The group is small. I wonder there are not more
people.

I am interested in tube ampls, but my level of knowledge and
my English is not too high, even though I have good education
as a chemical enginneer. I have some books and have made
some experiement with simple circuits that I enjoy
very much.

I wish there was a hope to ask some question without
being jumped by those unpleasant people. How can I swim
in such a stormy sea?


It would be a cruel world if we couldn't welcome the mentally ill.

Typing pigs is quite an unusual feature. It seems churlish to complain
about their poor understanding of electronics. Pigs have a right to
their pride too.

Freedom is problematic in many ways.

People get upset for reasons we can't know.

There is a long tradition of grumpy shopkeepers and service
technicians who appear to believe that engineering is some kind of
religion. They even have a bible. That is because they are shopkeepers
and service technicians, not engineers. You turn up with a bent valve,
the bike's half-stripped on the motorway, you've got to get to Italy
by tomorrow,
and they demand you tell them the part number which they know off by
heart. You just have to learn to grovel, it's the only respect they
get in life. It's not real.

There's no need to feel small. Italy is the important thing.

Hasn't your mate got a spelling chequer, BTW?

Ian

[west[_3_]]

--
westley AT gte DOT net
"Ian Iveson" wrote in message
.uk...
Iain Churches wrote

Standing On the Outside, Looking In
(apologies to Neil Sedaka:-)

Greetings fellow RATs.

I have just received the following e-mail from a chap in Portugal
It is quite an interesting view of the subscribers on RAT as
others see us. It made me feel rather sad.

Iain


_________________________________________________


I have been following RAT since a few months, though I
have not made a post there.

Some of the writers seem OK and good knowledge in
audio things. Your own do make clear to be polite
and friendly. Others behave worse than pigs, and two
most common seem to be in need of immediate medical
treatments.

The group is small. I wonder there are not more
people.

I am interested in tube ampls, but my level of knowledge and
my English is not too high, even though I have good education
as a chemical enginneer. I have some books and have made
some experiement with simple circuits that I enjoy
very much.

I wish there was a hope to ask some question without
being jumped by those unpleasant people. How can I swim
in such a stormy sea?


It would be a cruel world if we couldn't welcome the mentally ill.

Typing pigs is quite an unusual feature. It seems churlish to complain
about their poor understanding of electronics. Pigs have a right to
their pride too.

Freedom is problematic in many ways.

People get upset for reasons we can't know.

There is a long tradition of grumpy shopkeepers and service
technicians who appear to believe that engineering is some kind of
religion. They even have a bible. That is because they are shopkeepers
and service technicians, not engineers. You turn up with a bent valve,
the bike's half-stripped on the motorway, you've got to get to Italy
by tomorrow,
and they demand you tell them the part number which they know off by
heart. You just have to learn to grovel, it's the only respect they
get in life. It's not real.

There's no need to feel small. Italy is the important thing.

Hasn't your mate got a spelling chequer, BTW?

Ian

I think you are a significant contributor for a good portion of the ill will
here and at RAO. If you can just master of your tongue, you will travel much
further in life. However, the tongue is not so easy to tame, for "he who has
it under control has power mightier than a king." I've seen you completely
change the tone of an otherwise great thread with your careless spewing of
an oral diarrhea personal attack superlative. Now you might say ... am I
being picky? Not at all. It's ppl like you who ultimately place the last
straw on a great RAT contributor's back and ... whoosh! ... another one gone
forever. I've seen it happen many times. Check out Iain Churches thread
"Standing on the Outside Looking In," 4/17/2007. There are many great
contributors sandbagging this ng not because their skin is thin, but because
they do not know how to engage Philistine Rodents.

Cordially,
west

[Ian Iveson]

west wrote

It would be a cruel world if we couldn't welcome the mentally ill.

Typing pigs is quite an unusual feature. It seems churlish to
complain
about their poor understanding of electronics. Pigs have a right to
their pride too.

Freedom is problematic in many ways.

People get upset for reasons we can't know.

There is a long tradition of grumpy shopkeepers and service
technicians who appear to believe that engineering is some kind of
religion. They even have a bible. That is because they are
shopkeepers
and service technicians, not engineers. You turn up with a bent
valve,
the bike's half-stripped on the motorway, you've got to get to
Italy
by tomorrow,
and they demand you tell them the part number which they know off
by
heart. You just have to learn to grovel, it's the only respect they
get in life. It's not real.

There's no need to feel small. Italy is the important thing.

Hasn't your mate got a spelling chequer, BTW?

Ian

I think you are a significant contributor for a good portion of the
ill will
here and at RAO. If you can just master of your tongue, you will
travel much
further in life. However, the tongue is not so easy to tame, for "he
who has
it under control has power mightier than a king." I've seen you
completely
change the tone of an otherwise great thread with your careless
spewing of
an oral diarrhea personal attack superlative. Now you might say ...
am I
being picky? Not at all. It's ppl like you who ultimately place the
last
straw on a great RAT contributor's back and ... whoosh! ... another
one gone
forever. I've seen it happen many times. Check out Iain Churches
thread
"Standing on the Outside Looking In," 4/17/2007. There are many
great
contributors sandbagging this ng not because their skin is thin, but
because
they do not know how to engage Philistine Rodents.

Cordially...

Quite what was cordial about that?

I never attack anyone unless they are dogging my posts. I occasionally
defend a point for as long as I think anyone may be learning
something, and no longer.

I contrive to avoid social significance.

I haven't posted to RAO. I have posted once or twice to UkRA and once
by mistake to the other RAT. You must be mixing me up with someone
else.

Or perhaps you have fallen in with a bad crowd?

Ian