[DariaSimic]

The odd note in a concet with a setlist of 24 songs is not "always
out of tune," especcially if if the tour lasts over a year. Towards
the end of the tour the voice is bound to be rough.

-I only consider a note to be out of tune if it's mostly flat or
sharp
to the target note. I don't consider a note that is 30 cents flat to
be "way out of tune". STOP OVEREXAGERATING


- Pity all those people who you say are bad singers actually have
been
voted in a list of the best singers. Maybe because a lot of you
continue to state your opinion as a fact. I cannot stand Christina
Aguilira's warbling over some her songs. I'm not a fan of her music
nor of her style, that means she "can't sing". Of course she can
sing! But there are of some you who have that opinion of certain
singers. Even if the CEO of SonyBMG says what a great singer someone
is you still say, "they can't sing", "they're not the best", "singing
like this is club de rouquor"


- Sinatra, Chakha Khan Aretha and Pavorotti all slurred their pitch
and they all benefited from doing this. The problem is nowadays is
that everyone wants to sound the same. Sinatra's pitch slur, and
what
he did with it, was awesome. I remember a producer telling me this
once. He also said that Beyonce is not an RNB singer she's a pop
singer. She has strong voice and is probably one of the best pop
singers. I have asked other people about this including fans of her
music and RNB and they all say she's just a pop singer. The producer
said that she's always in tune but she is no Aretha. He said that
singing in tune is the easiest thing to do.


A woman once called up a radio station to say that she reckons Girls
Aloud sang See The Day better than Barbra Striesand because she
thinks
it sounds flat. Lulu was actually hoting it and whn she read out her
text message she paused and simply said "lets play Barbra's version
and imagine the girls in the video because they are cuite". This
spoke
volums. Yeah right, they are better singers than Streisand, cos it's
so much easier to sing with 5 voices than it is to sing with on your
own. Just because you've watched a few episodes of the x-factor it
doesn't mean you know about singing. Simon Carroll said that the
best
singer was Sinatra!


- I always consider power, tone of voice, emotion, distinctiveness
and
uniqueness to be important. Clearly you have to resemble some tune
but the people who I just mentioned do. Now Peter Gabriel used to
slurr his pitch but he could hold a note and was a fantastic singer.
Now I don;t know what T-Pain is doing, maybe sliding between the
notes.

[DariaSimic]

CONTINUED:

What about distinctiveness or doing a unique thing with your vocal?
For example Little Richards and Pat Boone's version of Tutti Fruity
couldn't be more different. The production on Boone's version seems
to be centred on the bland sound of his voice. He doesn't improvise
or employ different techniques in the same way Little Richard does.
On the other hand no vocal coach will approve of the way in which he
sings Tutti Fruity. He uses creaks, rumbles and vocal fry. But his
version is far supperior.


A more recent example is the original Where The Streets Have No Name
compaired to the Pet Shop Boys dire version. Niel Tennent and Chris
Lowe maybe good at what they do, but Niel has a drab voice. Bono
meanwhile, sighs, moans, screams and he allows his voice to crack. I
know which version I prefer. Many rock bands record live, U2 did on
the Joshua Tree, and they only added certain instrunmental parts to
it. This is why on the early copies of the album there were mistakes
on the end of Exit and on With Or Without You there are some mistakes
on the vocal. This does not mena that it is a rubbish vocal, still
pretty good for one take. You have to be stupid to say that it's not
a
great vocal. Besides most listeners won't even notice.


And I don't like patronising comments such as "for all it's flaws
it's
full of emotion". STOP PATRONISING!!!!!!!!


Do you think that during Elvis Las Vagas years he always sang in
tune? What about Fitzgerald? She came from a poor African American
family before Martin Luthor King. She admitted that she knew nothing
about chords she just sang. Would you bet your life that she was
always in tune? Still a fantastic singer. REM's Michael Stipe
always
sings slightly off the beat. Lilly Allen and Liam Gallagher also have
a uniqueness to their vocal. Do you think if they put Let It Be, Ruby
Tuesday or Bridge Under Troubled Water through autotune that it will
come through unaltered?


It's like those idiots who thought the Housiers sounded better than
Led Zeplin or that guy (who played guitar) who said that he didn't
rate Jimi Hendrix because he rarely played in tune. In the days of
GITT, Pro-Tools and all other trickary they use in studio's nowadays
that it hillarious. But he must be right cos after all he wasn't the
only one who said this but HIS FRIENDS SAID IT ALSO!!!! MY! They must
know more than Janis Joplin mustn't they?


I remember hearing one of Amy Winehouse old music teachers saying
that
she reminded him of what Billie Holiday would have sounded like if
her
tuning and Intonation was good. But then we get some clever so and
so
giving us a huge lecture that her intonation was poor.


Mind you I have noticed that some clever twit thought they'd post a
version of Leona Lewis' Bleeding Love autotuned. So despite the fact
she won a singing competition and that everyone else thinks she's
brilliant, there's always some dick who has to disagree.

And if I was writting a song and I wanted to put a Bflat in a B
neutral chord, I can, IT'S MY SONG!!!!!!!!!!

[rakmanenuff]

On Jul 18, 4:39 pm, DariaSimic wrote:

snip

Not sure if this is a discussion or the OP just
ranting... What brought this on?

What does "slurred their pitch" mean?

That could mean anything, sharp bends like Stevie,
bending up into the note, intentionally flat notes
like in some types or Reggae, bluesy notes,
microtonal singing like in Indian music, varying
degrees of vibrato, someone not hitting the note
then correcting themselves, or someone just
being out of tune.

30 cent off would be considered OUT in most types
of popular music, but 50 Cent sounds quite good,
you can see me in da club...

It isn't possible for anyone to be "objective" about
music, it's all about reference points and opinions.
Everything's relative, people who love Leona Lewis
aren't experts on pitch and terms like "R&B" and
"pop" can be interpreted in all kinds of different
ways.

But it's usually a good idea to keep one's technique
on a certain level just to play it safe. Personally
I'm more interested in ideas than execution but
I wouldn't use that as an excuse for being sloppy.

[gareth magennis]

"DariaSimic" wrote in message
...

CONTINUED:

What about distinctiveness or doing a unique thing with your vocal?
For example Little Richards and Pat Boone's version of Tutti Fruity
couldn't be more different. The production on Boone's version seems
to be centred on the bland sound of his voice. He doesn't improvise
or employ different techniques in the same way Little Richard does.
On the other hand no vocal coach will approve of the way in which he
sings Tutti Fruity. He uses creaks, rumbles and vocal fry. But his
version is far supperior.


A more recent example is the original Where The Streets Have No Name
compaired to the Pet Shop Boys dire version. Niel Tennent and Chris
Lowe maybe good at what they do, but Niel has a drab voice. Bono
meanwhile, sighs, moans, screams and he allows his voice to crack. I
know which version I prefer. Many rock bands record live, U2 did on
the Joshua Tree, and they only added certain instrunmental parts to
it. This is why on the early copies of the album there were mistakes
on the end of Exit and on With Or Without You there are some mistakes
on the vocal. This does not mena that it is a rubbish vocal, still
pretty good for one take. You have to be stupid to say that it's not
a
great vocal. Besides most listeners won't even notice.


And I don't like patronising comments such as "for all it's flaws
it's
full of emotion". STOP PATRONISING!!!!!!!!


Do you think that during Elvis Las Vagas years he always sang in
tune? What about Fitzgerald? She came from a poor African American
family before Martin Luthor King. She admitted that she knew nothing
about chords she just sang. Would you bet your life that she was
always in tune? Still a fantastic singer. REM's Michael Stipe
always
sings slightly off the beat. Lilly Allen and Liam Gallagher also have
a uniqueness to their vocal. Do you think if they put Let It Be, Ruby
Tuesday or Bridge Under Troubled Water through autotune that it will
come through unaltered?





No, I'm sorry, did you see the TV broadcast of Lilly Allen at Glastonbury?
She cannot sing any more than I can. Which is worse than next door's cat.
I was acutely embarrassed. I quite like her songs and spirit, actually,
but the vocal is obviously skillfully created by someone else in the
studio.

Liam, to his credit, can recreate what he does on record live. Love him or
loathe him, he is not a fake.




Gareth.

[DariaSimic]

On Jul 18, 8:22*pm, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote:
"DariaSimic" wrote in message

...







CONTINUED:

What about distinctiveness or doing a unique thing with your vocal?
For example Little Richards and Pat Boone's version of Tutti Fruity
couldn't be more different. *The production on Boone's version seems
to be centred on the bland sound of his voice. *He doesn't improvise
or employ different techniques in the same way Little Richard does.
On the other hand no vocal coach will approve of the way in which he
sings Tutti Fruity. *He uses creaks, rumbles and vocal fry. *But his
version is far supperior.

A more recent example is the original Where The Streets Have No Name
compaired to the Pet Shop Boys dire version. *Niel Tennent and Chris
Lowe maybe good at what they do, but Niel has a drab voice. *Bono
meanwhile, sighs, moans, screams and he allows his voice to crack. *I
know which version I prefer. Many rock bands record live, U2 did on
the Joshua Tree, and they only added certain instrunmental parts to
it. *This is why on the early copies of the album there were mistakes
on the end of Exit and on With Or Without You there are some mistakes
on the vocal. *This does not mena that it is a rubbish vocal, still
pretty good for one take. You have to be stupid to say that it's not
a
great vocal. *Besides most listeners won't even notice.

And I don't like patronising comments such as "for all it's flaws
it's
full of emotion". STOP PATRONISING!!!!!!!!

Do you think that during Elvis Las Vagas years he always sang in
tune? *What about Fitzgerald? *She came from a poor African American
family before Martin Luthor King. *She admitted that she knew nothing
about chords she just sang. *Would you bet your life that she was
always in tune? *Still a fantastic singer. *REM's Michael Stipe
always
sings slightly off the beat. Lilly Allen and Liam Gallagher also have
a uniqueness to their vocal. Do you think if they put Let It Be, Ruby
Tuesday or Bridge Under Troubled Water through autotune that it will
come through unaltered?

No, I'm sorry, did you see the TV broadcast of Lilly Allen at Glastonbury?
She cannot sing any more than I can. *Which is worse than next door's cat.
I was acutely embarrassed. * I quite like her songs and spirit, actually,
but the vocal *is obviously skillfully created by someone else in the
studio.

Liam, to his credit, can recreate what he does on record live. Love him or
loathe him, he is not a fake.

Gareth.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How about Sinatra, Pavarotti, Chaka Khan and Frankin's singing? I was
told that they slurred their pitch, this is why I found it interesting
that these are supposed to be fantastic singers.

How about Striesand's version of See The Day compaired to Girls Aloud
version?

-And how comes someone has put a version of Bleeding Love autotuned on
YouTube? I do believe that shows like Pop Idol have a very narrow
idea of singing although she has a brillinat voice.
That could mean anything, sharp bends like Stevie,
bending up into the note, intentionally flat notes
like in some types or Reggae, bluesy notes,
microtonal singing like in Indian music, varying
degrees of vibrato, someone not hitting the note
then correcting themselves, or someone just
being out of tune.

When you talk about Indian music, isn't it true that some countries
use different scales? Peter Gabriel used to sing music with African
influences and he's a great singer. I still think that when you are
writing a song it is up to you what notes to use. U2 for example
improvise with guitars so they used many of the chords that guitarists
traditionally go to (like E, D and G). However I read somewhere that
these are not great keys for Bono to sing in, he's much better in B
flat. That's why he's often singing a little lower or higher. But I
think it's rather selfish for his band to play a song in a key which
your singer finds it difficult to sing in.

[Joe Kotroczo]

On 18/07/08 21:22, in article
, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote:


(...)
No, I'm sorry, did you see the TV broadcast of Lilly Allen at Glastonbury?
She cannot sing any more than I can. Which is worse than next door's cat.
I was acutely embarrassed. I quite like her songs and spirit, actually,
but the vocal is obviously skillfully created by someone else in the
studio.

Wasn't that where she ended her set in tears saying that her grandmother had
died the night before?


--
Joe Kotroczo

[gareth magennis]

"Joe Kotroczo" wrote in message
...
On 18/07/08 21:22, in article
, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote:


(...)
No, I'm sorry, did you see the TV broadcast of Lilly Allen at
Glastonbury?
She cannot sing any more than I can. Which is worse than next door's
cat.
I was acutely embarrassed. I quite like her songs and spirit, actually,
but the vocal is obviously skillfully created by someone else in the
studio.

Wasn't that where she ended her set in tears saying that her grandmother
had
died the night before?




I don't know, I turned her off, I just couldn't watch it any more.


Maybe you could post a link to a good live performance of hers?




Gareth.

[Joe Kotroczo]

On 20/07/08 19:35, in article
, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote:


"Joe Kotroczo" wrote in message
...
On 18/07/08 21:22, in article
, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote:


(...)
No, I'm sorry, did you see the TV broadcast of Lilly Allen at
Glastonbury?
She cannot sing any more than I can. Which is worse than next door's
cat.
I was acutely embarrassed. I quite like her songs and spirit, actually,
but the vocal is obviously skillfully created by someone else in the
studio.

Wasn't that where she ended her set in tears saying that her grandmother had
died the night before?

I don't know, I turned her off, I just couldn't watch it any more.

Maybe you could post a link to a good live performance of hers?

I had a quick look on youtube, found this one which is not too bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXYnR...eature=related

But you're right, her songwriting is probably better than her performing.

--
Joe Kotroczo

[gareth magennis]

"Joe Kotroczo" wrote in message
...
On 20/07/08 19:35, in article
, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote:


"Joe Kotroczo" wrote in message
...
On 18/07/08 21:22, in article
, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote:


(...)
No, I'm sorry, did you see the TV broadcast of Lilly Allen at
Glastonbury?
She cannot sing any more than I can. Which is worse than next door's
cat.
I was acutely embarrassed. I quite like her songs and spirit,
actually,
but the vocal is obviously skillfully created by someone else in the
studio.

Wasn't that where she ended her set in tears saying that her grandmother
had
died the night before?

I don't know, I turned her off, I just couldn't watch it any more.

Maybe you could post a link to a good live performance of hers?

I had a quick look on youtube, found this one which is not too bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXYnR...eature=related

But you're right, her songwriting is probably better than her performing.



Hmmmm, I'm not 100% convinced she is actually singing that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrObl...eature=related

In this version, she is definately miming, and the vocal sounds identical to
your first link. Maybe? Not sure yet .....



Gareth.

[gareth magennis]

"Gareth Magennis" wrote in message
om...

"Joe Kotroczo" wrote in message
...
On 20/07/08 19:35, in article
, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote:


"Joe Kotroczo" wrote in message
...
On 18/07/08 21:22, in article
, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote:


(...)
No, I'm sorry, did you see the TV broadcast of Lilly Allen at
Glastonbury?
She cannot sing any more than I can. Which is worse than next door's
cat.
I was acutely embarrassed. I quite like her songs and spirit,
actually,
but the vocal is obviously skillfully created by someone else in the
studio.

Wasn't that where she ended her set in tears saying that her
grandmother had
died the night before?

I don't know, I turned her off, I just couldn't watch it any more.

Maybe you could post a link to a good live performance of hers?

I had a quick look on youtube, found this one which is not too bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXYnR...eature=related

But you're right, her songwriting is probably better than her performing.



Hmmmm, I'm not 100% convinced she is actually singing that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrObl...eature=related

In this version, she is definately miming, and the vocal sounds identical
to your first link. Maybe? Not sure yet .....



Gareth.



Ha! Tell you what, try running 2 instances of those 2 Youtube videos in
sync. You will notice they are both the same vocal, though at some points
there are extra harmony lines put in on one of them, I think.

Anyway, whatever, one or both is a fake.


Gareth.

[rboy]

This is your answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mkIx...eature=related

[gareth magennis]

"Signal" wrote in message
...
"Gareth Magennis" wrote:

No, I'm sorry, did you see the TV broadcast of Lilly Allen at
Glastonbury?
She cannot sing any more than I can. Which is worse than next
door's
cat.
I was acutely embarrassed. I quite like her songs and spirit,
actually,
but the vocal is obviously skillfully created by someone else in
the
studio.

Wasn't that where she ended her set in tears saying that her
grandmother had
died the night before?

I don't know, I turned her off, I just couldn't watch it any more.

Maybe you could post a link to a good live performance of hers?

I had a quick look on youtube, found this one which is not too bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXYnR...eature=related

But you're right, her songwriting is probably better than her
performing.



Hmmmm, I'm not 100% convinced she is actually singing that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrObl...eature=related

In this version, she is definately miming, and the vocal sounds
identical
to your first link. Maybe? Not sure yet .....



Gareth.



Ha! Tell you what, try running 2 instances of those 2 Youtube videos in
sync. You will notice they are both the same vocal, though at some points
there are extra harmony lines put in on one of them, I think.

Anyway, whatever, one or both is a fake.

Both live.. honest!



I'm not convinced yet. Play them both in sync, really, they are just too
perfectly matched. Not even any breaths or pops or anything to distinguish
the two. Not to mention any proximity effects or level differences due to
mic technique. Uncanny.

There is a part where they differ, around the lyric "you messed up my mental
health". But you will notice the same recorded backing "ah's" on each. You
may also notice that one has the vocal and an addittional recorded backing
harmony, where the other has her apparently singing the backing harmony, and
the main vocal is gone.

It wouldn't be difficult to use different mixes of the same multitracked
vocals for each different "live" performance, now would it.

I think it's a CIA plot myself.



Gareth.

[Joe Kotroczo]

On 20/07/08 22:29, in article
, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote:

(...)

Maybe you could post a link to a good live performance of hers?

I had a quick look on youtube, found this one which is not too bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXYnR...eature=related

But you're right, her songwriting is probably better than her performing.


Hmmmm, I'm not 100% convinced she is actually singing that.

I would be very surprised, I always believed that show to have no-playback
policy.

Here's the other bit she did that night:
http://video.mytaratata.com/video/iLyROoaftDcW.html


--
Joe Kotroczo

[gareth magennis]

"Signal" wrote in message
...
"Gareth Magennis" wrote:

No, I'm sorry, did you see the TV broadcast of Lilly Allen at
Glastonbury?
She cannot sing any more than I can. Which is worse than next
door's
cat.
I was acutely embarrassed. I quite like her songs and spirit,
actually,
but the vocal is obviously skillfully created by someone else in
the
studio.

Wasn't that where she ended her set in tears saying that her
grandmother had
died the night before?

I don't know, I turned her off, I just couldn't watch it any more.

Maybe you could post a link to a good live performance of hers?

I had a quick look on youtube, found this one which is not too bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXYnR...eature=related

But you're right, her songwriting is probably better than her
performing.



Hmmmm, I'm not 100% convinced she is actually singing that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrObl...eature=related

In this version, she is definately miming, and the vocal sounds
identical
to your first link. Maybe? Not sure yet .....



Gareth.



Ha! Tell you what, try running 2 instances of those 2 Youtube videos in
sync. You will notice they are both the same vocal, though at some
points
there are extra harmony lines put in on one of them, I think.

Anyway, whatever, one or both is a fake.

Both live.. honest!



I'm not convinced yet. Play them both in sync, really, they are just too
perfectly matched. Not even any breaths or pops or anything to
distinguish
the two. Not to mention any proximity effects or level differences due to
mic technique. Uncanny.

There is a part where they differ, around the lyric "you messed up my
mental
health". But you will notice the same recorded backing "ah's" on each.
You
may also notice that one has the vocal and an addittional recorded backing
harmony, where the other has her apparently singing the backing harmony,
and
the main vocal is gone.

It wouldn't be difficult to use different mixes of the same multitracked
vocals for each different "live" performance, now would it.

I think it's a CIA plot myself.



I don't know how to convince you, but I'd bet my life on both
performances being live.

The first clip is obvious IMO.

Look at the second clip around 1:55 and 2:55 and note the phrasing..

If you had seen the broadcast I think you would be in no doubt. These
Youtube clips aren't the best!



Perhaps. Maybe she is extremely good at consistency of live performance.
Not including Glastonbury.



Gareth.

[gareth magennis]

"Joe Kotroczo" wrote in message
...
On 20/07/08 22:29, in article
, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote:

(...)

Maybe you could post a link to a good live performance of hers?

I had a quick look on youtube, found this one which is not too bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXYnR...eature=related

But you're right, her songwriting is probably better than her
performing.


Hmmmm, I'm not 100% convinced she is actually singing that.

I would be very surprised, I always believed that show to have no-playback
policy.


Well that obviously doesn't include recorded backing vocals.



Here's the other bit she did that night:
http://video.mytaratata.com/video/iLyROoaftDcW.html



That's terrible. Mostly because of the guy singing in the wrong range.
Lily is live though.



Gareth.

[Eeyore]

Gareth Magennis wrote:

No, I'm sorry, did you see the TV broadcast of Lilly Allen at Glastonbury?
She cannot sing any more than I can. Which is worse than next door's cat.
I was acutely embarrassed. I quite like her songs and spirit, actually,
but the vocal is obviously skillfully created by someone else in the
studio.

Lilly Allen is just a dumb waste of space.

Could not agree more.

Graham

[Joe Kotroczo]

On 21/07/08 22:09, in article , "Eeyore"
wrote:

Gareth Magennis wrote:

No, I'm sorry, did you see the TV broadcast of Lilly Allen at Glastonbury?
She cannot sing any more than I can. Which is worse than next door's cat.
I was acutely embarrassed. I quite like her songs and spirit, actually,
but the vocal is obviously skillfully created by someone else in the
studio.

Lilly Allen is just a dumb waste of space.

Could not agree more.

Interesting, you consider an artist whose first album has sold close to a
million copies in the UK alone a "dumb waste of space"? I bet her label
doesn't...

Personally I would have thought that someone like that, in a newsgroup such
as this, would at least be seen as "would be nice to have as a client" or
something like that... Shouldn't there be some sort of minimal respect
between professionals of the music industry, even those normally separated
by a window?

I can agree with statements of her not being a great singer, or a great live
performer, but aren't there other things that an artist can be good at?
Songwriting maybe?

I have no idea what her public image in the media is like, so maybe you're
referring to something that she has done or said in a non-musical context?


--
Joe Kotroczo

[Eeyore]

Joe Kotroczo wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote:
Gareth Magennis wrote:

No, I'm sorry, did you see the TV broadcast of Lilly Allen at Glastonbury?
She cannot sing any more than I can. Which is worse than next door's cat.
I was acutely embarrassed. I quite like her songs and spirit, actually,
but the vocal is obviously skillfully created by someone else in the
studio.

Lilly Allen is just a dumb waste of space.

Could not agree more.

Interesting, you consider an artist whose first album has sold close to a
million copies in the UK alone a "dumb waste of space"? I bet her label
doesn't...

Have you seen her attempt at a TV show ?

Since I understand you're in the USA, you'll have been saved that
ultra-embarrassment.

Gareth however is like me in the Uk.


Personally I would have thought that someone like that, in a newsgroup such
as this, would at least be seen as "would be nice to have as a client" or
something like that... Shouldn't there be some sort of minimal respect
between professionals of the music industry, even those normally separated
by a window?

I can agree with statements of her not being a great singer, or a great live
performer, but aren't there other things that an artist can be good at?
Songwriting maybe?

Well I hope she's good at something but we have a weird culture here that ends up
promoting nobodies. The Z-list as they call it.


I have no idea what her public image in the media is like, so maybe you're
referring to something that she has done or said in a non-musical context?

Where to start ? Falling drunk out of taxis AIUI etc ?

Graham

[Robert Orban]

In article 23478ef7-8c42-4e9c-979a-
,
says...

And if I was writting a song and I wanted to put a Bflat in a B
neutral chord, I can, IT'S MY SONG!!!!!!!!!!

That would make it a B neutral 7th chord...
..
..
..
..
..
;-)

[hank alrich]

Robert Orban wrote:

In article 23478ef7-8c42-4e9c-979a-
,
says...

And if I was writting a song and I wanted to put a Bflat in a B
neutral chord, I can, IT'S MY SONG!!!!!!!!!!

That would make it a B neutral 7th chord...
.
.
.
.
.
;-)

I quote Mr. Hornbeck: "Arf!"

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Geoff]

hank alrich wrote:

I quote Mr. Hornbeck: "Arf!"

I ***NEVER*** exaggerate.


geoff