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#41
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Ribbon for classical guitar
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 02:15:08 -0400, Les Cargill
wrote: So, why is one "90 degrees", but not the other? Is it because a pressure mic versus a pressure *gradient* (e.g., velocity) mic represents a differentiation? In that case, d(sin(x))/dt = cos(x) - a 90 degree shift. (Or d(cos(x))/dt = -sin(x)) Oh OK. Very cool. So it's just because it's defined as relative to pressure? I can almost live with that. And Life's almost worth living again. Speaking of life, good night! I'll be clearer in a few hours. (Or, realistically, not especially...) Much thanks, as always, Chris Hornbeck |
#42
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Ribbon for classical guitar
On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:48:22 -0400, H. Khalil wrote
(in article ): On 21 Jul., 16:59, Ty Ford wrote: Understand. My M160 is somewhat finnicky as to the mic pre. There are a few it really does well with. AEA TRP, Neve 9098, Jensen Dual Servo. Try to get one of them and please let us know how it comes out. Unfortunately, a new pre is not an option for me right now. I've got the Metric Halo ULN2 and can only hope it works well with the M160. It has lots of quiet gain and presumably can drive a ribbon. Anyway, just ordered the M160 and when it comes I'll let you know how it fares against the MK41 on my guitar. If possible, I will post audio samples so you can help me decide :-) Cheers! I have both mics here. On my Martin I prefer the Schoeps, but you're after something to alter the sound of your guitar. I'm pretty happy with mine. Regards, Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU |
#43
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Ribbon for classical guitar
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:55:04 -0400, nebulax wrote
(in article ): On Jul 21, 1:59 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: H. Khalil wrote: On 21 Jul., 16:59, Ty Ford wrote: Understand. My M160 is somewhat finnicky as to the mic pre. There are a few it really does well with. AEA TRP, Neve 9098, Jensen Dual Servo. Try to get one of them and please let us know how it comes out. Unfortunately, a new pre is not an option for me right now. I've got the Metric Halo ULN2 and can only hope it works well with the M160. It has lots of quiet gain and presumably can drive a ribbon. Anyway, just ordered the M160 and when it comes I'll let you know how it fares against the MK41 on my guitar. If possible, I will post audio samples so you can help me decide :-) You just ordered it sight-unseen, without actually listening to it? That is _always_ a mistake. --scott I agree, but it can be challenging to find a place to try out mics before buying, as well. If it's something common like a Sennheiser 421, you can go down to a music megastore and demo it on the spot, or even rent it from a local PA company, but something more exotic like a ribbon would be much harder to come across. There are companies in big recording towns like Nashville and LA who will rent you all manner of exotic studio mics, but the expense of doing that might outweigh the benefits after some point. -Neb But the 421 II sounds nothing like a 421 and they don't make the 421 anymore. Are you seeing the 421 for sale? That'd be a grab! Regards, Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU |
#44
Posted to rec.audio.pro,rec.music.classical.recordings,aus.politics.guns,aus.hi-fi
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Ribbon for classical guitar
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 03:18:23 -0400, Soundhaspriority wrote
(in article ): wrote in message This is amazingly clear and very helpful. My residual confusions about why this doesn't have a complimentary parallel in the pressure case will need to await some snooze time and thought. I'm just a very literal, rock-on-the-end-of-a-spring guy. I am well-known for writing "amazingly clear" explanations of how audio works. It's a mystery to me why my recordings are so ****ing bad. I know much more about how audio works than any of you poorly-educated cretins. become coprophagus and perish, buzzard. Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU |
#45
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ribbon for classical guitar
Paul Stamler wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... You need to go try some. All three are good but all three are different. I tend to grab the M160 first, but Paul Stamler tends to grab the M260 first. Which is because I happen to *have" an M260, while I hope to own an M160 one of these days after I get done paying for other things. They are remarkably different mics, based on my pairs of each. The M160 is a "higher quality" mic, smoother and a bit sweeter to me (whatever that **** means); the M260 has a little edge, a little bite that isn't painful in most situations, that works well with some sources. For one vocalist I work with the M260 works as if it cost a couple grand. In other situations it's not transparent enough, too intrusive. I think some of this is due to its output transformer. -- ha Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam |
#46
Posted to rec.audio.pro,rec.music.classical.recordings,aus.politics.guns,aus.hi-fi
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Ribbon for classical guitar
OUT of rec.music.classical.recordings.
-- Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks! My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers |
#47
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ribbon for classical guitar
This has become an enlightening and thought-provoking thread! When I
brought up the pressure vs. velocity phase differential, I should have offered a simple explanation of just what it is. Taking the train back to the station, here is what must be understood: Before there is movement of an element, there must be pressure upon it. As it begins to move, the pressure subsides and its speed increases. Think of a sine wave where pressure is greatest at the zero crossing. Pressure is zero at the top of the waveform and velocity is greatest. So, velocity always *follows* pressure by 90 degrees. Why is this important? Many folks use more than one mic on an instrument. If they are inherently out of phase, there will be consequences that can't be corrected by placement or phase switches. The few of you who are seeking a deeper understanding will enjoy reading Howard M. Tremaine's 1757 page "Audio Cyclopedia, Second Edition". It is long out of print, but used copies are out there. They aren't cheap. If your local library has one, have a look. I think of it as the Bible of Audio Knowledge. -- ~ ~ Roy "If you notice the sound, it's wrong!" |
#48
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ribbon for classical guitar
On 22 Jul 2008 15:40:16 GMT, Roy W. Rising
wrote: This has become an enlightening and thought-provoking thread! When I brought up the pressure vs. velocity phase differential, I should have offered a simple explanation of just what it is. Taking the train back to the station, here is what must be understood: Before there is movement of an element, there must be pressure upon it. As it begins to move, the pressure subsides and its speed increases. Think of a sine wave where pressure is greatest at the zero crossing. Pressure is zero at the top of the waveform and velocity is greatest. So, velocity always *follows* pressure by 90 degrees. Thank you. That is perfectly clear, even to me, which is saying a lot! Why is this important? Many folks use more than one mic on an instrument. If they are inherently out of phase, there will be consequences that can't be corrected by placement or phase switches. Surely different locations in space would swamp this? (except within a single microphone). It's a quarter wavelength, so can we figure from there? The few of you who are seeking a deeper understanding will enjoy reading Howard M. Tremaine's 1757 page "Audio Cyclopedia, Second Edition". It is long out of print, but used copies are out there. They aren't cheap. If your local library has one, have a look. I think of it as the Bible of Audio Knowledge. Okay, okay, I give! Folks are always recommending this, but I've never seen it. I'll try to get the library to import a copy, and I'll be in PDX over Labor Day and can bug Powell's too. Very expensive on Amazon, fersure - not impossibly though. Much thanks, as always, Chris Hornbeck |
#49
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ribbon for classical guitar
Chris Hornbeck wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 02:15:08 -0400, Les Cargill wrote: So, why is one "90 degrees", but not the other? Is it because a pressure mic versus a pressure *gradient* (e.g., velocity) mic represents a differentiation? In that case, d(sin(x))/dt = cos(x) - a 90 degree shift. (Or d(cos(x))/dt = -sin(x)) Oh OK. Very cool. So it's just because it's defined as relative to pressure? Welll.... relative to each other. But since it's called a "pressure gradient" mic, I can live with "pressure" being the "base" model. I can almost live with that. And Life's almost worth living again. Nah. It's always worth living. Speaking of life, good night! I'll be clearer in a few hours. (Or, realistically, not especially...) Much thanks, as always, Chris Hornbeck -- Les Cargill |
#50
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ribbon for classical guitar
"Chris Hornbeck" wrote in message
... Okay, okay, I give! Folks are always recommending this, but I've never seen it. I'll try to get the library to import a copy, and I'll be in PDX over Labor Day and can bug Powell's too. Very expensive on Amazon, fersure - not impossibly though. Usually www.abebooks.com is cheaper than Amazon's used books. Peace, Paul |
#51
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ribbon for classical guitar
Chris Hornbeck wrote:
On 22 Jul 2008 15:40:16 GMT, Roy W. Rising wrote: The few of you who are seeking a deeper understanding will enjoy reading Howard M. Tremaine's 1757 page "Audio Cyclopedia, Second Edition". It is long out of print, but used copies are out there. They aren't cheap. If your local library has one, have a look. I think of it as the Bible of Audio Knowledge. Okay, okay, I give! Folks are always recommending this, but I've never seen it. The book is so good that you don't have to be an EE or physicist to partake of its information. Information is presented accessibly and comprehensively, to the point that even a dumbass guitar player can make good use of it. i pretty much built onion audio, with the help of more informed friends, using that book for acoustical and other guidance. If you are unable to locate one and would settle for a loaner to scan, holler. -- ha Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam |
#52
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ribbon for classical guitar
Chris Hornbeck wrote:
On 22 Jul 2008 15:40:16 GMT, Roy W. Rising wrote: This has become an enlightening and thought-provoking thread! When I brought up the pressure vs. velocity phase differential, I should have offered a simple explanation of just what it is. Taking the train back to the station, here is what must be understood: Before there is movement of an element, there must be pressure upon it. As it begins to move, the pressure subsides and its speed increases. Think of a sine wave where pressure is greatest at the zero crossing. Pressure is zero at the top of the waveform and velocity is greatest. So, velocity always *follows* pressure by 90 degrees. Thank you. That is perfectly clear, even to me, which is saying a lot! Why is this important? Many folks use more than one mic on an instrument. If they are inherently out of phase, there will be consequences that can't be corrected by placement or phase switches. Surely different locations in space would swamp this? (except within a single microphone). It's a quarter wavelength, so can we figure from there? Moving the mic by a quarter wavelength works only for a single frequency (and its harmonics). *All* the other frequencies remain corrupted. It's called Acoustical Phase Distortion and led to the "three to one" rule whereby we avoid placing two mics that might pick up the same source less than three times as far apart than they are from the source, assuming they are to be mixed. [snip] Much thanks, as always, Chris Hornbeck -- ~ ~ Roy "If you notice the sound, it's wrong!" |
#53
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Ribbon for classical guitar
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#56
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ribbon for classical guitar
Dear H
You might want to consider omnis. Among the inherent problems with directional mics is that they are boomy when positioned too close due to the proximity effect and increasingly thin and colored at more ambient distances, due to off axis phase distortion. Omnis don't have these problems, especially small diaphgram omnis. A lot of people are afraid of them. Omnis work better in a good sounding room, but since they have no proximity effect you can move in closer with good results and good seperation. Someone once said to me that a cardioid is just a broken omni. Ribbons might be better than the Shoeps (which are very good mics). The reputation is that the transition into the higher frequencies is smoother with ribbons. They tend to have very low sensitivity, so you will need a good quiet preamp with 60dB+ of gain. The MIO can do this, I think. Ribbons are usually a figure of 8 pickup pattern so you have to be aware of the 180 degree off axis arrivals. Sometimes this out of phase room sound sounds good, sometimes not. If not you have to be prepared to reduce these arrivals physically, or aim the back somewhere else. Which of these Beyer models is best- I don't know. Listen. If you have questions please feel free to contact me. I like talking about recording acoustic instruments. It's fun. Eric Blackmer Blackmer Sound (.com) |
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