As you have probably surmised from the title, this will be used for
transferring vinyl LPs to a digital CD-ROM format (16 bits and 44.1
kHz).

Turntable will be a Rega P-3 with a Rega Super Elys cartridge.

Here is my question:
I have a choice between an Echo Mia-MIDI or TerraTec DMX 6FIRE 24/96
sound card to do the AD conversion. With the DMX 6Fire I can run the
turntable directly into the break-out box and skip the Phono Pre amp
altogether and do the RIAA equalization in software. To me this looks
like a real attractive alternative to the more traditional approach of
Turntable Phono PreAmp Sound card. It also saves me $600 to $1,200
in cost which is pretty significant in my world. It also avoids all of
the problems that might be related to my PreAmp coloring the sound as
well (yes I'm thinking tubes).

I want the best quality recordings that I can REASONABLY obtain, but
if the difference will be dramatically better with the Mia-MIDI and a
good Phono PreAmp then I will have to go with that option. If the
results will be the same or so close that I could not tell, then I
will take the cheaper way out. The most important thing to me is to
get it right. I really want to stay away from some of the more extreme
"audiophile" solutions that call for $1,000 interconnects. I just
don't have the cash to chase after the last .05%. :-)

I plan to sample at 24 Bit/88.2 kHz and then do my final down sampling
after I'm done cleaning up and de-clicking, if that information will
be of any help.

This setup will basically be a "one trick pony". All this sound card
will do is record LPs and I have have no other audio components that I
wish to interconnect so the Phone Preamp will never be used to listen
to vinyl unless I'm doing a transfer.

So which way is better?

Thanks for getting this far! :-)

Jimmy The Clam wrote:
As you have probably surmised from the title, this will be used for
transferring vinyl LPs to a digital CD-ROM format (16 bits and 44.1
kHz).

Turntable will be a Rega P-3 with a Rega Super Elys cartridge.

Here is my question:
I have a choice between an Echo Mia-MIDI or TerraTec DMX 6FIRE 24/96
sound card to do the AD conversion. With the DMX 6Fire I can run the
turntable directly into the break-out box and skip the Phono Pre amp
altogether and do the RIAA equalization in software. To me this looks
like a real attractive alternative to the more traditional approach of
Turntable Phono PreAmp Sound card. It also saves me $600 to $1,200
in cost which is pretty significant in my world. It also avoids all of
the problems that might be related to my PreAmp coloring the sound as
well (yes I'm thinking tubes).

I've got some concerns about the fact that the DMX's RIAA equalization is
done with software. Historically, this has involved some compromises in
terms of dynamic range. I can't find any detailed specs or independent tests
that show how this unusual feature actually works.

Jimmy The Clam wrote:
As you have probably surmised from the title, this will be used for
transferring vinyl LPs to a digital CD-ROM format (16 bits and 44.1
kHz).

Turntable will be a Rega P-3 with a Rega Super Elys cartridge.

Here is my question:
I have a choice between an Echo Mia-MIDI or TerraTec DMX 6FIRE 24/96
sound card to do the AD conversion. With the DMX 6Fire I can run the
turntable directly into the break-out box and skip the Phono Pre amp
altogether and do the RIAA equalization in software. To me this looks
like a real attractive alternative to the more traditional approach of
Turntable Phono PreAmp Sound card. It also saves me $600 to $1,200
in cost which is pretty significant in my world. It also avoids all of
the problems that might be related to my PreAmp coloring the sound as
well (yes I'm thinking tubes).

I've got some concerns about the fact that the DMX's RIAA equalization is
done with software. Historically, this has involved some compromises in
terms of dynamic range. I can't find any detailed specs or independent tests
that show how this unusual feature actually works.

Jimmy The Clam wrote:
As you have probably surmised from the title, this will be used for
transferring vinyl LPs to a digital CD-ROM format (16 bits and 44.1
kHz).

Turntable will be a Rega P-3 with a Rega Super Elys cartridge.

Here is my question:
I have a choice between an Echo Mia-MIDI or TerraTec DMX 6FIRE 24/96
sound card to do the AD conversion. With the DMX 6Fire I can run the
turntable directly into the break-out box and skip the Phono Pre amp
altogether and do the RIAA equalization in software. To me this looks
like a real attractive alternative to the more traditional approach of
Turntable Phono PreAmp Sound card. It also saves me $600 to $1,200
in cost which is pretty significant in my world. It also avoids all of
the problems that might be related to my PreAmp coloring the sound as
well (yes I'm thinking tubes).

I've got some concerns about the fact that the DMX's RIAA equalization is
done with software. Historically, this has involved some compromises in
terms of dynamic range. I can't find any detailed specs or independent tests
that show how this unusual feature actually works.

Jimmy The Clam wrote:
As you have probably surmised from the title, this will be used for
transferring vinyl LPs to a digital CD-ROM format (16 bits and 44.1
kHz).

Turntable will be a Rega P-3 with a Rega Super Elys cartridge.

Here is my question:
I have a choice between an Echo Mia-MIDI or TerraTec DMX 6FIRE 24/96
sound card to do the AD conversion. With the DMX 6Fire I can run the
turntable directly into the break-out box and skip the Phono Pre amp
altogether and do the RIAA equalization in software. To me this looks
like a real attractive alternative to the more traditional approach of
Turntable Phono PreAmp Sound card. It also saves me $600 to $1,200
in cost which is pretty significant in my world. It also avoids all of
the problems that might be related to my PreAmp coloring the sound as
well (yes I'm thinking tubes).

I've got some concerns about the fact that the DMX's RIAA equalization is
done with software. Historically, this has involved some compromises in
terms of dynamic range. I can't find any detailed specs or independent tests
that show how this unusual feature actually works.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
I've got some concerns about the fact that the DMX's RIAA equalization is
done with software. Historically, this has involved some compromises in
terms of dynamic range. I can't find any detailed specs or independent
tests
that show how this unusual feature actually works.

Do you know if that dynamic range would be reduced to less that 80db?

I know the card has a greater dynamic range than vinyl, but are you saying
that what would come off the record would be reduced further or just that
the full range that the card has to offer would be reduced?

Thanks for the reply Arny!

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
I've got some concerns about the fact that the DMX's RIAA equalization is
done with software. Historically, this has involved some compromises in
terms of dynamic range. I can't find any detailed specs or independent
tests
that show how this unusual feature actually works.

Do you know if that dynamic range would be reduced to less that 80db?

I know the card has a greater dynamic range than vinyl, but are you saying
that what would come off the record would be reduced further or just that
the full range that the card has to offer would be reduced?

Thanks for the reply Arny!

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
I've got some concerns about the fact that the DMX's RIAA equalization is
done with software. Historically, this has involved some compromises in
terms of dynamic range. I can't find any detailed specs or independent
tests
that show how this unusual feature actually works.

Do you know if that dynamic range would be reduced to less that 80db?

I know the card has a greater dynamic range than vinyl, but are you saying
that what would come off the record would be reduced further or just that
the full range that the card has to offer would be reduced?

Thanks for the reply Arny!

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
I've got some concerns about the fact that the DMX's RIAA equalization is
done with software. Historically, this has involved some compromises in
terms of dynamic range. I can't find any detailed specs or independent
tests
that show how this unusual feature actually works.

Do you know if that dynamic range would be reduced to less that 80db?

I know the card has a greater dynamic range than vinyl, but are you saying
that what would come off the record would be reduced further or just that
the full range that the card has to offer would be reduced?

Thanks for the reply Arny!

Jimmy The Clam wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

I've got some concerns about the fact that the DMX's RIAA
equalization is done with software. Historically, this has involved
some compromises in terms of dynamic range. I can't find any
detailed specs or independent tests that show how this unusual
feature actually works.

Do you know if that dynamic range would be reduced to less that 80db?

At some frequencies in the audio range, probably yes.

There's 40 dB of equalization in the RIAA curve. It's basically a giant
roll-off that levels off for a while in the middle.

A RIAA preamp stage generally has about 36-40 dB gain in the midrange,
about 56-60 dB gain at 20 Hz, and 16-20 dB gain at 20 KHz.

If you implement this as a broadband amplifier with flat frequency response
followed by the equalization implemented in the digital domain, You need to
have 56-60 dB gain at all frequencies. IOW. to have the equivalent of 1 volt
of output at 20 KHz, you need to have close to 100 volts and attenuate it by
40 dB. The usual RIAA preamp designs attenuate the signal before it gets
that big.

Consumer sound cards generally have maximum input in the range of 1-2 volts.
If you attenuate that by 40 dB, you have 10-20 millivolts. So the output of
the flat response preamp at 20 Hz, is now limited to 10-20 millivolts, which
is a very small signal. If the card starts out with 95 dB SNR, then the
equivalent SNR at 20 Hz is 55 dB. The good news is that 20 Hz is a
frequency where the ear is insensitive and the turntable is producing a lot
of noise of its own.

Over the whole audio range, the SNR limit due to the flat response preamp
design might average out to be more like 75 dB in this implementation, which
is a somewhat better than you can get with a good turntable and a very clean
record. It's not that much worse than conventional high quality RIAA preamp
designs.

The plus is that the equalization can be implemented in the digital domain
and therefore be highly precise. Expensive high-tolerance capacitors for
equalization (usually 2 per channel) aren't needed.

I think that with the needle up and gains matched, you might be able to hear
a difference in the sound of the background noise, if you compared a flat
response phono preamp followed by a digital equalizer implemented in the
computer, as compared to a standard RIAA preamp. It would be an interesting
experiment. Needle on the record, it could be a horse race.

People including myself have thought about implementing a preamp this way
for years. The plus is that it eliminates the cost of some expensive
precision capacitors and some modest-priced but not cheap precision
resistors.

I know the card has a greater dynamic range than vinyl, but are you
saying that what would come off the record would be reduced further
or just that the full range that the card has to offer would be
reduced?

I just don't know the actual details of how they do what they provide a
summary description for. I'm presuming a solution here that I think is a
logical surmise. It's an interesting approach that a lot of people have
dismissed over the years. Sound cards are getting good enough (close to 100
dB dynamic range) that it might work. Clearly, this approach would have
been a disaster in the days when sound cards only had only 65 dB dynamic
range, or marginal with current cheapo-cheapo sound cards that have more
like 80 dB dynamic range.

Jimmy The Clam wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

I've got some concerns about the fact that the DMX's RIAA
equalization is done with software. Historically, this has involved
some compromises in terms of dynamic range. I can't find any
detailed specs or independent tests that show how this unusual
feature actually works.

Do you know if that dynamic range would be reduced to less that 80db?

At some frequencies in the audio range, probably yes.

There's 40 dB of equalization in the RIAA curve. It's basically a giant
roll-off that levels off for a while in the middle.

A RIAA preamp stage generally has about 36-40 dB gain in the midrange,
about 56-60 dB gain at 20 Hz, and 16-20 dB gain at 20 KHz.

If you implement this as a broadband amplifier with flat frequency response
followed by the equalization implemented in the digital domain, You need to
have 56-60 dB gain at all frequencies. IOW. to have the equivalent of 1 volt
of output at 20 KHz, you need to have close to 100 volts and attenuate it by
40 dB. The usual RIAA preamp designs attenuate the signal before it gets
that big.

Consumer sound cards generally have maximum input in the range of 1-2 volts.
If you attenuate that by 40 dB, you have 10-20 millivolts. So the output of
the flat response preamp at 20 Hz, is now limited to 10-20 millivolts, which
is a very small signal. If the card starts out with 95 dB SNR, then the
equivalent SNR at 20 Hz is 55 dB. The good news is that 20 Hz is a
frequency where the ear is insensitive and the turntable is producing a lot
of noise of its own.

Over the whole audio range, the SNR limit due to the flat response preamp
design might average out to be more like 75 dB in this implementation, which
is a somewhat better than you can get with a good turntable and a very clean
record. It's not that much worse than conventional high quality RIAA preamp
designs.

The plus is that the equalization can be implemented in the digital domain
and therefore be highly precise. Expensive high-tolerance capacitors for
equalization (usually 2 per channel) aren't needed.

I think that with the needle up and gains matched, you might be able to hear
a difference in the sound of the background noise, if you compared a flat
response phono preamp followed by a digital equalizer implemented in the
computer, as compared to a standard RIAA preamp. It would be an interesting
experiment. Needle on the record, it could be a horse race.

People including myself have thought about implementing a preamp this way
for years. The plus is that it eliminates the cost of some expensive
precision capacitors and some modest-priced but not cheap precision
resistors.

I know the card has a greater dynamic range than vinyl, but are you
saying that what would come off the record would be reduced further
or just that the full range that the card has to offer would be
reduced?

I just don't know the actual details of how they do what they provide a
summary description for. I'm presuming a solution here that I think is a
logical surmise. It's an interesting approach that a lot of people have
dismissed over the years. Sound cards are getting good enough (close to 100
dB dynamic range) that it might work. Clearly, this approach would have
been a disaster in the days when sound cards only had only 65 dB dynamic
range, or marginal with current cheapo-cheapo sound cards that have more
like 80 dB dynamic range.

Jimmy The Clam wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

I've got some concerns about the fact that the DMX's RIAA
equalization is done with software. Historically, this has involved
some compromises in terms of dynamic range. I can't find any
detailed specs or independent tests that show how this unusual
feature actually works.

Do you know if that dynamic range would be reduced to less that 80db?

At some frequencies in the audio range, probably yes.

There's 40 dB of equalization in the RIAA curve. It's basically a giant
roll-off that levels off for a while in the middle.

A RIAA preamp stage generally has about 36-40 dB gain in the midrange,
about 56-60 dB gain at 20 Hz, and 16-20 dB gain at 20 KHz.

If you implement this as a broadband amplifier with flat frequency response
followed by the equalization implemented in the digital domain, You need to
have 56-60 dB gain at all frequencies. IOW. to have the equivalent of 1 volt
of output at 20 KHz, you need to have close to 100 volts and attenuate it by
40 dB. The usual RIAA preamp designs attenuate the signal before it gets
that big.

Consumer sound cards generally have maximum input in the range of 1-2 volts.
If you attenuate that by 40 dB, you have 10-20 millivolts. So the output of
the flat response preamp at 20 Hz, is now limited to 10-20 millivolts, which
is a very small signal. If the card starts out with 95 dB SNR, then the
equivalent SNR at 20 Hz is 55 dB. The good news is that 20 Hz is a
frequency where the ear is insensitive and the turntable is producing a lot
of noise of its own.

Over the whole audio range, the SNR limit due to the flat response preamp
design might average out to be more like 75 dB in this implementation, which
is a somewhat better than you can get with a good turntable and a very clean
record. It's not that much worse than conventional high quality RIAA preamp
designs.

The plus is that the equalization can be implemented in the digital domain
and therefore be highly precise. Expensive high-tolerance capacitors for
equalization (usually 2 per channel) aren't needed.

I think that with the needle up and gains matched, you might be able to hear
a difference in the sound of the background noise, if you compared a flat
response phono preamp followed by a digital equalizer implemented in the
computer, as compared to a standard RIAA preamp. It would be an interesting
experiment. Needle on the record, it could be a horse race.

People including myself have thought about implementing a preamp this way
for years. The plus is that it eliminates the cost of some expensive
precision capacitors and some modest-priced but not cheap precision
resistors.

I know the card has a greater dynamic range than vinyl, but are you
saying that what would come off the record would be reduced further
or just that the full range that the card has to offer would be
reduced?

I just don't know the actual details of how they do what they provide a
summary description for. I'm presuming a solution here that I think is a
logical surmise. It's an interesting approach that a lot of people have
dismissed over the years. Sound cards are getting good enough (close to 100
dB dynamic range) that it might work. Clearly, this approach would have
been a disaster in the days when sound cards only had only 65 dB dynamic
range, or marginal with current cheapo-cheapo sound cards that have more
like 80 dB dynamic range.

Jimmy The Clam wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

I've got some concerns about the fact that the DMX's RIAA
equalization is done with software. Historically, this has involved
some compromises in terms of dynamic range. I can't find any
detailed specs or independent tests that show how this unusual
feature actually works.

Do you know if that dynamic range would be reduced to less that 80db?

At some frequencies in the audio range, probably yes.

There's 40 dB of equalization in the RIAA curve. It's basically a giant
roll-off that levels off for a while in the middle.

A RIAA preamp stage generally has about 36-40 dB gain in the midrange,
about 56-60 dB gain at 20 Hz, and 16-20 dB gain at 20 KHz.

If you implement this as a broadband amplifier with flat frequency response
followed by the equalization implemented in the digital domain, You need to
have 56-60 dB gain at all frequencies. IOW. to have the equivalent of 1 volt
of output at 20 KHz, you need to have close to 100 volts and attenuate it by
40 dB. The usual RIAA preamp designs attenuate the signal before it gets
that big.

Consumer sound cards generally have maximum input in the range of 1-2 volts.
If you attenuate that by 40 dB, you have 10-20 millivolts. So the output of
the flat response preamp at 20 Hz, is now limited to 10-20 millivolts, which
is a very small signal. If the card starts out with 95 dB SNR, then the
equivalent SNR at 20 Hz is 55 dB. The good news is that 20 Hz is a
frequency where the ear is insensitive and the turntable is producing a lot
of noise of its own.

Over the whole audio range, the SNR limit due to the flat response preamp
design might average out to be more like 75 dB in this implementation, which
is a somewhat better than you can get with a good turntable and a very clean
record. It's not that much worse than conventional high quality RIAA preamp
designs.

The plus is that the equalization can be implemented in the digital domain
and therefore be highly precise. Expensive high-tolerance capacitors for
equalization (usually 2 per channel) aren't needed.

I think that with the needle up and gains matched, you might be able to hear
a difference in the sound of the background noise, if you compared a flat
response phono preamp followed by a digital equalizer implemented in the
computer, as compared to a standard RIAA preamp. It would be an interesting
experiment. Needle on the record, it could be a horse race.

People including myself have thought about implementing a preamp this way
for years. The plus is that it eliminates the cost of some expensive
precision capacitors and some modest-priced but not cheap precision
resistors.

I know the card has a greater dynamic range than vinyl, but are you
saying that what would come off the record would be reduced further
or just that the full range that the card has to offer would be
reduced?

I just don't know the actual details of how they do what they provide a
summary description for. I'm presuming a solution here that I think is a
logical surmise. It's an interesting approach that a lot of people have
dismissed over the years. Sound cards are getting good enough (close to 100
dB dynamic range) that it might work. Clearly, this approach would have
been a disaster in the days when sound cards only had only 65 dB dynamic
range, or marginal with current cheapo-cheapo sound cards that have more
like 80 dB dynamic range.

This looks REALLY intriguing and perhaps the idea of "software" RIAA has
finally arrived; maybe, I hope.
As the manufacturer Terratec is stating, that this card has:
24bit/96kHz AD converters with 100 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
24bit/96kHz DA converters with 110 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
So hopefully this card has the juice to pull it off.
More details he
http://productsen.terratec.net/modul...rticle&artid=4

The phonograph cartridge I want to use is the Rega Super Elys with an output
of: 6.8mV - 7.2mV

What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the capabilities
of this card as I intend to use it?
I will post their answers for further discussion and follow up.

Thank you Arny.



Do you know if that dynamic range would be reduced to less that 80db?

At some frequencies in the audio range, probably yes.

There's 40 dB of equalization in the RIAA curve. It's basically a giant
roll-off that levels off for a while in the middle.

A RIAA preamp stage generally has about 36-40 dB gain in the midrange,
about 56-60 dB gain at 20 Hz, and 16-20 dB gain at 20 KHz.

If you implement this as a broadband amplifier with flat frequency
response
followed by the equalization implemented in the digital domain, You need
to
have 56-60 dB gain at all frequencies. IOW. to have the equivalent of 1
volt
of output at 20 KHz, you need to have close to 100 volts and attenuate it
by
40 dB. The usual RIAA preamp designs attenuate the signal before it gets
that big.

Consumer sound cards generally have maximum input in the range of 1-2
volts.
If you attenuate that by 40 dB, you have 10-20 millivolts. So the output
of
the flat response preamp at 20 Hz, is now limited to 10-20 millivolts,
which
is a very small signal. If the card starts out with 95 dB SNR, then the
equivalent SNR at 20 Hz is 55 dB. The good news is that 20 Hz is a
frequency where the ear is insensitive and the turntable is producing a
lot
of noise of its own.

Over the whole audio range, the SNR limit due to the flat response preamp
design might average out to be more like 75 dB in this implementation,
which
is a somewhat better than you can get with a good turntable and a very
clean
record. It's not that much worse than conventional high quality RIAA
preamp
designs.

The plus is that the equalization can be implemented in the digital domain
and therefore be highly precise. Expensive high-tolerance capacitors for
equalization (usually 2 per channel) aren't needed.

I think that with the needle up and gains matched, you might be able to
hear
a difference in the sound of the background noise, if you compared a flat
response phono preamp followed by a digital equalizer implemented in the
computer, as compared to a standard RIAA preamp. It would be an
interesting
experiment. Needle on the record, it could be a horse race.

People including myself have thought about implementing a preamp this way
for years. The plus is that it eliminates the cost of some expensive
precision capacitors and some modest-priced but not cheap precision
resistors.

I know the card has a greater dynamic range than vinyl, but are you
saying that what would come off the record would be reduced further
or just that the full range that the card has to offer would be
reduced?

I just don't know the actual details of how they do what they provide a
summary description for. I'm presuming a solution here that I think is a
logical surmise. It's an interesting approach that a lot of people have
dismissed over the years. Sound cards are getting good enough (close to
100
dB dynamic range) that it might work. Clearly, this approach would have
been a disaster in the days when sound cards only had only 65 dB dynamic
range, or marginal with current cheapo-cheapo sound cards that have more
like 80 dB dynamic range.

This looks REALLY intriguing and perhaps the idea of "software" RIAA has
finally arrived; maybe, I hope.
As the manufacturer Terratec is stating, that this card has:
24bit/96kHz AD converters with 100 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
24bit/96kHz DA converters with 110 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
So hopefully this card has the juice to pull it off.
More details he
http://productsen.terratec.net/modul...rticle&artid=4

The phonograph cartridge I want to use is the Rega Super Elys with an output
of: 6.8mV - 7.2mV

What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the capabilities
of this card as I intend to use it?
I will post their answers for further discussion and follow up.

Thank you Arny.



Do you know if that dynamic range would be reduced to less that 80db?

At some frequencies in the audio range, probably yes.

There's 40 dB of equalization in the RIAA curve. It's basically a giant
roll-off that levels off for a while in the middle.

A RIAA preamp stage generally has about 36-40 dB gain in the midrange,
about 56-60 dB gain at 20 Hz, and 16-20 dB gain at 20 KHz.

If you implement this as a broadband amplifier with flat frequency
response
followed by the equalization implemented in the digital domain, You need
to
have 56-60 dB gain at all frequencies. IOW. to have the equivalent of 1
volt
of output at 20 KHz, you need to have close to 100 volts and attenuate it
by
40 dB. The usual RIAA preamp designs attenuate the signal before it gets
that big.

Consumer sound cards generally have maximum input in the range of 1-2
volts.
If you attenuate that by 40 dB, you have 10-20 millivolts. So the output
of
the flat response preamp at 20 Hz, is now limited to 10-20 millivolts,
which
is a very small signal. If the card starts out with 95 dB SNR, then the
equivalent SNR at 20 Hz is 55 dB. The good news is that 20 Hz is a
frequency where the ear is insensitive and the turntable is producing a
lot
of noise of its own.

Over the whole audio range, the SNR limit due to the flat response preamp
design might average out to be more like 75 dB in this implementation,
which
is a somewhat better than you can get with a good turntable and a very
clean
record. It's not that much worse than conventional high quality RIAA
preamp
designs.

The plus is that the equalization can be implemented in the digital domain
and therefore be highly precise. Expensive high-tolerance capacitors for
equalization (usually 2 per channel) aren't needed.

I think that with the needle up and gains matched, you might be able to
hear
a difference in the sound of the background noise, if you compared a flat
response phono preamp followed by a digital equalizer implemented in the
computer, as compared to a standard RIAA preamp. It would be an
interesting
experiment. Needle on the record, it could be a horse race.

People including myself have thought about implementing a preamp this way
for years. The plus is that it eliminates the cost of some expensive
precision capacitors and some modest-priced but not cheap precision
resistors.

I know the card has a greater dynamic range than vinyl, but are you
saying that what would come off the record would be reduced further
or just that the full range that the card has to offer would be
reduced?

I just don't know the actual details of how they do what they provide a
summary description for. I'm presuming a solution here that I think is a
logical surmise. It's an interesting approach that a lot of people have
dismissed over the years. Sound cards are getting good enough (close to
100
dB dynamic range) that it might work. Clearly, this approach would have
been a disaster in the days when sound cards only had only 65 dB dynamic
range, or marginal with current cheapo-cheapo sound cards that have more
like 80 dB dynamic range.

This looks REALLY intriguing and perhaps the idea of "software" RIAA has
finally arrived; maybe, I hope.
As the manufacturer Terratec is stating, that this card has:
24bit/96kHz AD converters with 100 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
24bit/96kHz DA converters with 110 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
So hopefully this card has the juice to pull it off.
More details he
http://productsen.terratec.net/modul...rticle&artid=4

The phonograph cartridge I want to use is the Rega Super Elys with an output
of: 6.8mV - 7.2mV

What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the capabilities
of this card as I intend to use it?
I will post their answers for further discussion and follow up.

Thank you Arny.



Do you know if that dynamic range would be reduced to less that 80db?

At some frequencies in the audio range, probably yes.

There's 40 dB of equalization in the RIAA curve. It's basically a giant
roll-off that levels off for a while in the middle.

A RIAA preamp stage generally has about 36-40 dB gain in the midrange,
about 56-60 dB gain at 20 Hz, and 16-20 dB gain at 20 KHz.

If you implement this as a broadband amplifier with flat frequency
response
followed by the equalization implemented in the digital domain, You need
to
have 56-60 dB gain at all frequencies. IOW. to have the equivalent of 1
volt
of output at 20 KHz, you need to have close to 100 volts and attenuate it
by
40 dB. The usual RIAA preamp designs attenuate the signal before it gets
that big.

Consumer sound cards generally have maximum input in the range of 1-2
volts.
If you attenuate that by 40 dB, you have 10-20 millivolts. So the output
of
the flat response preamp at 20 Hz, is now limited to 10-20 millivolts,
which
is a very small signal. If the card starts out with 95 dB SNR, then the
equivalent SNR at 20 Hz is 55 dB. The good news is that 20 Hz is a
frequency where the ear is insensitive and the turntable is producing a
lot
of noise of its own.

Over the whole audio range, the SNR limit due to the flat response preamp
design might average out to be more like 75 dB in this implementation,
which
is a somewhat better than you can get with a good turntable and a very
clean
record. It's not that much worse than conventional high quality RIAA
preamp
designs.

The plus is that the equalization can be implemented in the digital domain
and therefore be highly precise. Expensive high-tolerance capacitors for
equalization (usually 2 per channel) aren't needed.

I think that with the needle up and gains matched, you might be able to
hear
a difference in the sound of the background noise, if you compared a flat
response phono preamp followed by a digital equalizer implemented in the
computer, as compared to a standard RIAA preamp. It would be an
interesting
experiment. Needle on the record, it could be a horse race.

People including myself have thought about implementing a preamp this way
for years. The plus is that it eliminates the cost of some expensive
precision capacitors and some modest-priced but not cheap precision
resistors.

I know the card has a greater dynamic range than vinyl, but are you
saying that what would come off the record would be reduced further
or just that the full range that the card has to offer would be
reduced?

I just don't know the actual details of how they do what they provide a
summary description for. I'm presuming a solution here that I think is a
logical surmise. It's an interesting approach that a lot of people have
dismissed over the years. Sound cards are getting good enough (close to
100
dB dynamic range) that it might work. Clearly, this approach would have
been a disaster in the days when sound cards only had only 65 dB dynamic
range, or marginal with current cheapo-cheapo sound cards that have more
like 80 dB dynamic range.

This looks REALLY intriguing and perhaps the idea of "software" RIAA has
finally arrived; maybe, I hope.
As the manufacturer Terratec is stating, that this card has:
24bit/96kHz AD converters with 100 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
24bit/96kHz DA converters with 110 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
So hopefully this card has the juice to pull it off.
More details he
http://productsen.terratec.net/modul...rticle&artid=4

The phonograph cartridge I want to use is the Rega Super Elys with an output
of: 6.8mV - 7.2mV

What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the capabilities
of this card as I intend to use it?
I will post their answers for further discussion and follow up.

Thank you Arny.



Do you know if that dynamic range would be reduced to less that 80db?

At some frequencies in the audio range, probably yes.

There's 40 dB of equalization in the RIAA curve. It's basically a giant
roll-off that levels off for a while in the middle.

A RIAA preamp stage generally has about 36-40 dB gain in the midrange,
about 56-60 dB gain at 20 Hz, and 16-20 dB gain at 20 KHz.

If you implement this as a broadband amplifier with flat frequency
response
followed by the equalization implemented in the digital domain, You need
to
have 56-60 dB gain at all frequencies. IOW. to have the equivalent of 1
volt
of output at 20 KHz, you need to have close to 100 volts and attenuate it
by
40 dB. The usual RIAA preamp designs attenuate the signal before it gets
that big.

Consumer sound cards generally have maximum input in the range of 1-2
volts.
If you attenuate that by 40 dB, you have 10-20 millivolts. So the output
of
the flat response preamp at 20 Hz, is now limited to 10-20 millivolts,
which
is a very small signal. If the card starts out with 95 dB SNR, then the
equivalent SNR at 20 Hz is 55 dB. The good news is that 20 Hz is a
frequency where the ear is insensitive and the turntable is producing a
lot
of noise of its own.

Over the whole audio range, the SNR limit due to the flat response preamp
design might average out to be more like 75 dB in this implementation,
which
is a somewhat better than you can get with a good turntable and a very
clean
record. It's not that much worse than conventional high quality RIAA
preamp
designs.

The plus is that the equalization can be implemented in the digital domain
and therefore be highly precise. Expensive high-tolerance capacitors for
equalization (usually 2 per channel) aren't needed.

I think that with the needle up and gains matched, you might be able to
hear
a difference in the sound of the background noise, if you compared a flat
response phono preamp followed by a digital equalizer implemented in the
computer, as compared to a standard RIAA preamp. It would be an
interesting
experiment. Needle on the record, it could be a horse race.

People including myself have thought about implementing a preamp this way
for years. The plus is that it eliminates the cost of some expensive
precision capacitors and some modest-priced but not cheap precision
resistors.

I know the card has a greater dynamic range than vinyl, but are you
saying that what would come off the record would be reduced further
or just that the full range that the card has to offer would be
reduced?

I just don't know the actual details of how they do what they provide a
summary description for. I'm presuming a solution here that I think is a
logical surmise. It's an interesting approach that a lot of people have
dismissed over the years. Sound cards are getting good enough (close to
100
dB dynamic range) that it might work. Clearly, this approach would have
been a disaster in the days when sound cards only had only 65 dB dynamic
range, or marginal with current cheapo-cheapo sound cards that have more
like 80 dB dynamic range.

Jimmy The Clam wrote:

This looks REALLY intriguing and perhaps the idea of "software" RIAA
has finally arrived; maybe, I hope.

As the manufacturer Terratec is stating, that this card has:
24bit/96kHz AD converters with 100 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
24bit/96kHz DA converters with 110 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
So hopefully this card has the juice to pull it off.

If you search on

rightmark DMX 6FIRE

You'll see some independent numbers. I characterize the card as having 95 dB
dynamic range which is very good.

More details he

http://productsen.terratec.net/modul...rticle&artid=4

Not enough detail.

The phonograph cartridge I want to use is the Rega Super Elys with an
output of: 6.8mV - 7.2mV

Somewhat more output than usual, but not out-of-bounds.

What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the
capabilities of this card as I intend to use it?

At some point you'll probably buy it and pray for a good return policy if it
turns out to not be what you want.

Jimmy The Clam wrote:

This looks REALLY intriguing and perhaps the idea of "software" RIAA
has finally arrived; maybe, I hope.

As the manufacturer Terratec is stating, that this card has:
24bit/96kHz AD converters with 100 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
24bit/96kHz DA converters with 110 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
So hopefully this card has the juice to pull it off.

If you search on

rightmark DMX 6FIRE

You'll see some independent numbers. I characterize the card as having 95 dB
dynamic range which is very good.

More details he

http://productsen.terratec.net/modul...rticle&artid=4

Not enough detail.

The phonograph cartridge I want to use is the Rega Super Elys with an
output of: 6.8mV - 7.2mV

Somewhat more output than usual, but not out-of-bounds.

What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the
capabilities of this card as I intend to use it?

At some point you'll probably buy it and pray for a good return policy if it
turns out to not be what you want.

Jimmy The Clam wrote:

This looks REALLY intriguing and perhaps the idea of "software" RIAA
has finally arrived; maybe, I hope.

As the manufacturer Terratec is stating, that this card has:
24bit/96kHz AD converters with 100 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
24bit/96kHz DA converters with 110 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
So hopefully this card has the juice to pull it off.

If you search on

rightmark DMX 6FIRE

You'll see some independent numbers. I characterize the card as having 95 dB
dynamic range which is very good.

More details he

http://productsen.terratec.net/modul...rticle&artid=4

Not enough detail.

The phonograph cartridge I want to use is the Rega Super Elys with an
output of: 6.8mV - 7.2mV

Somewhat more output than usual, but not out-of-bounds.

What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the
capabilities of this card as I intend to use it?

At some point you'll probably buy it and pray for a good return policy if it
turns out to not be what you want.

Jimmy The Clam wrote:

This looks REALLY intriguing and perhaps the idea of "software" RIAA
has finally arrived; maybe, I hope.

As the manufacturer Terratec is stating, that this card has:
24bit/96kHz AD converters with 100 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
24bit/96kHz DA converters with 110 dB dynamical range (S/NR)
So hopefully this card has the juice to pull it off.

If you search on

rightmark DMX 6FIRE

You'll see some independent numbers. I characterize the card as having 95 dB
dynamic range which is very good.

More details he

http://productsen.terratec.net/modul...rticle&artid=4

Not enough detail.

The phonograph cartridge I want to use is the Rega Super Elys with an
output of: 6.8mV - 7.2mV

Somewhat more output than usual, but not out-of-bounds.

What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the
capabilities of this card as I intend to use it?

At some point you'll probably buy it and pray for a good return policy if it
turns out to not be what you want.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the
capabilities of this card as I intend to use it?

At some point you'll probably buy it and pray for a good return policy if
it
turns out to not be what you want.

Agreed, but if it were that simple, I would already own the card. :-)

I guess a better question from me to you would be what quality level of
Phono preamplifier would this sound as good as?

I know this may not sound as well as certain $15,000 phono preamps I have
heard about, but I also assume that it will be much better than one of those
$20 ones from Radio Shack as well. After I own it, how would I test this
thing to see what it's really doing? I don't think I have good enough ears
to make that decision by myself yet.

Thanks again!

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the
capabilities of this card as I intend to use it?

At some point you'll probably buy it and pray for a good return policy if
it
turns out to not be what you want.

Agreed, but if it were that simple, I would already own the card. :-)

I guess a better question from me to you would be what quality level of
Phono preamplifier would this sound as good as?

I know this may not sound as well as certain $15,000 phono preamps I have
heard about, but I also assume that it will be much better than one of those
$20 ones from Radio Shack as well. After I own it, how would I test this
thing to see what it's really doing? I don't think I have good enough ears
to make that decision by myself yet.

Thanks again!

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the
capabilities of this card as I intend to use it?

At some point you'll probably buy it and pray for a good return policy if
it
turns out to not be what you want.

Agreed, but if it were that simple, I would already own the card. :-)

I guess a better question from me to you would be what quality level of
Phono preamplifier would this sound as good as?

I know this may not sound as well as certain $15,000 phono preamps I have
heard about, but I also assume that it will be much better than one of those
$20 ones from Radio Shack as well. After I own it, how would I test this
thing to see what it's really doing? I don't think I have good enough ears
to make that decision by myself yet.

Thanks again!

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the
capabilities of this card as I intend to use it?

At some point you'll probably buy it and pray for a good return policy if
it
turns out to not be what you want.

Agreed, but if it were that simple, I would already own the card. :-)

I guess a better question from me to you would be what quality level of
Phono preamplifier would this sound as good as?

I know this may not sound as well as certain $15,000 phono preamps I have
heard about, but I also assume that it will be much better than one of those
$20 ones from Radio Shack as well. After I own it, how would I test this
thing to see what it's really doing? I don't think I have good enough ears
to make that decision by myself yet.

Thanks again!

"Jimmy The Clam" wrote in message ...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the
capabilities of this card as I intend to use it?

At some point you'll probably buy it and pray for a good return policy if
it
turns out to not be what you want.

Agreed, but if it were that simple, I would already own the card. :-)

I guess a better question from me to you would be what quality level of
Phono preamplifier would this sound as good as?

I know this may not sound as well as certain $15,000 phono preamps I have
heard about, but I also assume that it will be much better than one of those
$20 ones from Radio Shack as well. After I own it, how would I test this
thing to see what it's really doing? I don't think I have good enough ears
to make that decision by myself yet.

Thanks again!

I don't think this is a comparison between a phono pre-amp and
software. It's more like a comparison between a regular audio
stand-alone phono pre-amp verses the phono pre-amp inside the TerreTec
card. Hardware vs hardware. In which case, the one that sounds better
to you would win. The Terra card phono input is simply a phono pre-amp
mated to its 24/96 AD stage. I think there may have been a bit of a
compromise to add the phono pre-amp electronics onto that card. If it
was my choice, I would go with the separate pre-amp and an Echo card.
The purist in me likes that because Echo is a company that
conecentrates on just audio, and a separate phono pre-amp will
concentrate on being jsut one thing, a good phono pre amp. Compare
that to the phono pre-amp built into the TerraTec card. The TerraTec
card sounds like it wants to be everything for everybody. Built in
phono pre-amp, DTS sound, the works. Usually that means compromise.



CD

"Jimmy The Clam" wrote in message ...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the
capabilities of this card as I intend to use it?

At some point you'll probably buy it and pray for a good return policy if
it
turns out to not be what you want.

Agreed, but if it were that simple, I would already own the card. :-)

I guess a better question from me to you would be what quality level of
Phono preamplifier would this sound as good as?

I know this may not sound as well as certain $15,000 phono preamps I have
heard about, but I also assume that it will be much better than one of those
$20 ones from Radio Shack as well. After I own it, how would I test this
thing to see what it's really doing? I don't think I have good enough ears
to make that decision by myself yet.

Thanks again!

I don't think this is a comparison between a phono pre-amp and
software. It's more like a comparison between a regular audio
stand-alone phono pre-amp verses the phono pre-amp inside the TerreTec
card. Hardware vs hardware. In which case, the one that sounds better
to you would win. The Terra card phono input is simply a phono pre-amp
mated to its 24/96 AD stage. I think there may have been a bit of a
compromise to add the phono pre-amp electronics onto that card. If it
was my choice, I would go with the separate pre-amp and an Echo card.
The purist in me likes that because Echo is a company that
conecentrates on just audio, and a separate phono pre-amp will
concentrate on being jsut one thing, a good phono pre amp. Compare
that to the phono pre-amp built into the TerraTec card. The TerraTec
card sounds like it wants to be everything for everybody. Built in
phono pre-amp, DTS sound, the works. Usually that means compromise.



CD

"Jimmy The Clam" wrote in message ...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the
capabilities of this card as I intend to use it?

At some point you'll probably buy it and pray for a good return policy if
it
turns out to not be what you want.

Agreed, but if it were that simple, I would already own the card. :-)

I guess a better question from me to you would be what quality level of
Phono preamplifier would this sound as good as?

I know this may not sound as well as certain $15,000 phono preamps I have
heard about, but I also assume that it will be much better than one of those
$20 ones from Radio Shack as well. After I own it, how would I test this
thing to see what it's really doing? I don't think I have good enough ears
to make that decision by myself yet.

Thanks again!

I don't think this is a comparison between a phono pre-amp and
software. It's more like a comparison between a regular audio
stand-alone phono pre-amp verses the phono pre-amp inside the TerreTec
card. Hardware vs hardware. In which case, the one that sounds better
to you would win. The Terra card phono input is simply a phono pre-amp
mated to its 24/96 AD stage. I think there may have been a bit of a
compromise to add the phono pre-amp electronics onto that card. If it
was my choice, I would go with the separate pre-amp and an Echo card.
The purist in me likes that because Echo is a company that
conecentrates on just audio, and a separate phono pre-amp will
concentrate on being jsut one thing, a good phono pre amp. Compare
that to the phono pre-amp built into the TerraTec card. The TerraTec
card sounds like it wants to be everything for everybody. Built in
phono pre-amp, DTS sound, the works. Usually that means compromise.



CD

"Jimmy The Clam" wrote in message ...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
What questions should I ask them to get a better handle on the
capabilities of this card as I intend to use it?

At some point you'll probably buy it and pray for a good return policy if
it
turns out to not be what you want.

Agreed, but if it were that simple, I would already own the card. :-)

I guess a better question from me to you would be what quality level of
Phono preamplifier would this sound as good as?

I know this may not sound as well as certain $15,000 phono preamps I have
heard about, but I also assume that it will be much better than one of those
$20 ones from Radio Shack as well. After I own it, how would I test this
thing to see what it's really doing? I don't think I have good enough ears
to make that decision by myself yet.

Thanks again!

I don't think this is a comparison between a phono pre-amp and
software. It's more like a comparison between a regular audio
stand-alone phono pre-amp verses the phono pre-amp inside the TerreTec
card. Hardware vs hardware. In which case, the one that sounds better
to you would win. The Terra card phono input is simply a phono pre-amp
mated to its 24/96 AD stage. I think there may have been a bit of a
compromise to add the phono pre-amp electronics onto that card. If it
was my choice, I would go with the separate pre-amp and an Echo card.
The purist in me likes that because Echo is a company that
conecentrates on just audio, and a separate phono pre-amp will
concentrate on being jsut one thing, a good phono pre amp. Compare
that to the phono pre-amp built into the TerraTec card. The TerraTec
card sounds like it wants to be everything for everybody. Built in
phono pre-amp, DTS sound, the works. Usually that means compromise.



CD

"Codifus" wrote in message
om...


I don't think this is a comparison between a phono pre-amp and
software. It's more like a comparison between a regular audio
stand-alone phono pre-amp verses the phono pre-amp inside the TerreTec
card. Hardware vs hardware. In which case, the one that sounds better
to you would win. The Terra card phono input is simply a phono pre-amp
mated to its 24/96 AD stage. I think there may have been a bit of a
compromise to add the phono pre-amp electronics onto that card. If it
was my choice, I would go with the separate pre-amp and an Echo card.
The purist in me likes that because Echo is a company that
conecentrates on just audio, and a separate phono pre-amp will
concentrate on being jsut one thing, a good phono pre amp. Compare
that to the phono pre-amp built into the TerraTec card. The TerraTec
card sounds like it wants to be everything for everybody. Built in
phono pre-amp, DTS sound, the works. Usually that means compromise.



CD

From what I can tell you have TWO options with the RIAA equalization with
the TerraTec card.
The onboard hardware solution that is inside the breakout box is not really
a consideration as I do think that would be inferior to a very good phono
preamp.
But I don't find anywhere on the internet any information comparing a
software RIAA equalization with an equalization done by a good phono preamp.
With older hardware from a just a few years ago, I would think that a
software solution would be seriously lacking because of the limited
processing power available and the necessity of off-loading every function
possible onto hardware from the CPU for performance reasons is, I think,
behind us. I don't really think (from reading the reviews) that the DMX
6Fire tries to be that much to too many people. True the Mia is pretty much
a sound only device, but the DMX 6Fire dumps a lot of traditional "gaming"
functions and seems to concentrate on just music but is also a much newer
card.

You are right, this is a contest between a good traditional hardware
solution as represented by a decent phono-preamp (typically in the $600 to
$1,200 range) and what is now possible in software.

The preamps I have been considering in order of price are the:

The Bottle Head "Seduction" kit (the build it yourself option)
http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobesp.../seduction.htm

Black Cube SE phono stage
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/blcubee.html

EAR 834P PHONOBOX
http://www.ear-yoshino.com/productde...p?page=6&id=20

"Codifus" wrote in message
om...


I don't think this is a comparison between a phono pre-amp and
software. It's more like a comparison between a regular audio
stand-alone phono pre-amp verses the phono pre-amp inside the TerreTec
card. Hardware vs hardware. In which case, the one that sounds better
to you would win. The Terra card phono input is simply a phono pre-amp
mated to its 24/96 AD stage. I think there may have been a bit of a
compromise to add the phono pre-amp electronics onto that card. If it
was my choice, I would go with the separate pre-amp and an Echo card.
The purist in me likes that because Echo is a company that
conecentrates on just audio, and a separate phono pre-amp will
concentrate on being jsut one thing, a good phono pre amp. Compare
that to the phono pre-amp built into the TerraTec card. The TerraTec
card sounds like it wants to be everything for everybody. Built in
phono pre-amp, DTS sound, the works. Usually that means compromise.



CD

From what I can tell you have TWO options with the RIAA equalization with
the TerraTec card.
The onboard hardware solution that is inside the breakout box is not really
a consideration as I do think that would be inferior to a very good phono
preamp.
But I don't find anywhere on the internet any information comparing a
software RIAA equalization with an equalization done by a good phono preamp.
With older hardware from a just a few years ago, I would think that a
software solution would be seriously lacking because of the limited
processing power available and the necessity of off-loading every function
possible onto hardware from the CPU for performance reasons is, I think,
behind us. I don't really think (from reading the reviews) that the DMX
6Fire tries to be that much to too many people. True the Mia is pretty much
a sound only device, but the DMX 6Fire dumps a lot of traditional "gaming"
functions and seems to concentrate on just music but is also a much newer
card.

You are right, this is a contest between a good traditional hardware
solution as represented by a decent phono-preamp (typically in the $600 to
$1,200 range) and what is now possible in software.

The preamps I have been considering in order of price are the:

The Bottle Head "Seduction" kit (the build it yourself option)
http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobesp.../seduction.htm

Black Cube SE phono stage
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/blcubee.html

EAR 834P PHONOBOX
http://www.ear-yoshino.com/productde...p?page=6&id=20

"Codifus" wrote in message
om...


I don't think this is a comparison between a phono pre-amp and
software. It's more like a comparison between a regular audio
stand-alone phono pre-amp verses the phono pre-amp inside the TerreTec
card. Hardware vs hardware. In which case, the one that sounds better
to you would win. The Terra card phono input is simply a phono pre-amp
mated to its 24/96 AD stage. I think there may have been a bit of a
compromise to add the phono pre-amp electronics onto that card. If it
was my choice, I would go with the separate pre-amp and an Echo card.
The purist in me likes that because Echo is a company that
conecentrates on just audio, and a separate phono pre-amp will
concentrate on being jsut one thing, a good phono pre amp. Compare
that to the phono pre-amp built into the TerraTec card. The TerraTec
card sounds like it wants to be everything for everybody. Built in
phono pre-amp, DTS sound, the works. Usually that means compromise.



CD

From what I can tell you have TWO options with the RIAA equalization with
the TerraTec card.
The onboard hardware solution that is inside the breakout box is not really
a consideration as I do think that would be inferior to a very good phono
preamp.
But I don't find anywhere on the internet any information comparing a
software RIAA equalization with an equalization done by a good phono preamp.
With older hardware from a just a few years ago, I would think that a
software solution would be seriously lacking because of the limited
processing power available and the necessity of off-loading every function
possible onto hardware from the CPU for performance reasons is, I think,
behind us. I don't really think (from reading the reviews) that the DMX
6Fire tries to be that much to too many people. True the Mia is pretty much
a sound only device, but the DMX 6Fire dumps a lot of traditional "gaming"
functions and seems to concentrate on just music but is also a much newer
card.

You are right, this is a contest between a good traditional hardware
solution as represented by a decent phono-preamp (typically in the $600 to
$1,200 range) and what is now possible in software.

The preamps I have been considering in order of price are the:

The Bottle Head "Seduction" kit (the build it yourself option)
http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobesp.../seduction.htm

Black Cube SE phono stage
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/blcubee.html

EAR 834P PHONOBOX
http://www.ear-yoshino.com/productde...p?page=6&id=20

"Codifus" wrote in message
om...


I don't think this is a comparison between a phono pre-amp and
software. It's more like a comparison between a regular audio
stand-alone phono pre-amp verses the phono pre-amp inside the TerreTec
card. Hardware vs hardware. In which case, the one that sounds better
to you would win. The Terra card phono input is simply a phono pre-amp
mated to its 24/96 AD stage. I think there may have been a bit of a
compromise to add the phono pre-amp electronics onto that card. If it
was my choice, I would go with the separate pre-amp and an Echo card.
The purist in me likes that because Echo is a company that
conecentrates on just audio, and a separate phono pre-amp will
concentrate on being jsut one thing, a good phono pre amp. Compare
that to the phono pre-amp built into the TerraTec card. The TerraTec
card sounds like it wants to be everything for everybody. Built in
phono pre-amp, DTS sound, the works. Usually that means compromise.



CD

From what I can tell you have TWO options with the RIAA equalization with
the TerraTec card.
The onboard hardware solution that is inside the breakout box is not really
a consideration as I do think that would be inferior to a very good phono
preamp.
But I don't find anywhere on the internet any information comparing a
software RIAA equalization with an equalization done by a good phono preamp.
With older hardware from a just a few years ago, I would think that a
software solution would be seriously lacking because of the limited
processing power available and the necessity of off-loading every function
possible onto hardware from the CPU for performance reasons is, I think,
behind us. I don't really think (from reading the reviews) that the DMX
6Fire tries to be that much to too many people. True the Mia is pretty much
a sound only device, but the DMX 6Fire dumps a lot of traditional "gaming"
functions and seems to concentrate on just music but is also a much newer
card.

You are right, this is a contest between a good traditional hardware
solution as represented by a decent phono-preamp (typically in the $600 to
$1,200 range) and what is now possible in software.

The preamps I have been considering in order of price are the:

The Bottle Head "Seduction" kit (the build it yourself option)
http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobesp.../seduction.htm

Black Cube SE phono stage
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/blcubee.html

EAR 834P PHONOBOX
http://www.ear-yoshino.com/productde...p?page=6&id=20

"Jimmy The Clam" wrote in message
...
From what I can tell you have TWO options with the RIAA equalization with
the TerraTec card.
The onboard hardware solution that is inside the breakout box is not
really
a consideration as I do think that would be inferior to a very good phono
preamp.
But I don't find anywhere on the internet any information comparing a
software RIAA equalization with an equalization done by a good phono
preamp.

I think you will find the software approach fine above a couple of hundred
hertz, but seriously inferior below 100 Hz.
The real problem is that you still need some gain somewhere, because no
cartridge will give you the 1V you need to drive the soundcard. So you may
as well use an RIAA pre-amp as a flat one.

I don't really think (from reading the reviews) that the DMX
6Fire tries to be that much to too many people. True the Mia is pretty
much
a sound only device, but the DMX 6Fire dumps a lot of traditional "gaming"
functions and seems to concentrate on just music but is also a much newer
card.

I think the Mia has better performance, and the software eq approach can be
used with either card anyway.
The performance of the card is *far* more critical with the software EQ
approach though.

You are right, this is a contest between a good traditional hardware
solution as represented by a decent phono-preamp (typically in the $600 to
$1,200 range) and what is now possible in software.

Either card and a $200 RIAA pre-amp will probably give you better quality
than any of your vinyl records are capable of.
Anybody who thinks you need less than 1dB RIAA EQ error doesn't know how
much Freq Resp error is on the disks they are playing!
(Or just how much they could pick in a blind test anyway.)

TonyP.

"Jimmy The Clam" wrote in message
...
From what I can tell you have TWO options with the RIAA equalization with
the TerraTec card.
The onboard hardware solution that is inside the breakout box is not
really
a consideration as I do think that would be inferior to a very good phono
preamp.
But I don't find anywhere on the internet any information comparing a
software RIAA equalization with an equalization done by a good phono
preamp.

I think you will find the software approach fine above a couple of hundred
hertz, but seriously inferior below 100 Hz.
The real problem is that you still need some gain somewhere, because no
cartridge will give you the 1V you need to drive the soundcard. So you may
as well use an RIAA pre-amp as a flat one.

I don't really think (from reading the reviews) that the DMX
6Fire tries to be that much to too many people. True the Mia is pretty
much
a sound only device, but the DMX 6Fire dumps a lot of traditional "gaming"
functions and seems to concentrate on just music but is also a much newer
card.

I think the Mia has better performance, and the software eq approach can be
used with either card anyway.
The performance of the card is *far* more critical with the software EQ
approach though.

You are right, this is a contest between a good traditional hardware
solution as represented by a decent phono-preamp (typically in the $600 to
$1,200 range) and what is now possible in software.

Either card and a $200 RIAA pre-amp will probably give you better quality
than any of your vinyl records are capable of.
Anybody who thinks you need less than 1dB RIAA EQ error doesn't know how
much Freq Resp error is on the disks they are playing!
(Or just how much they could pick in a blind test anyway.)

TonyP.

"Jimmy The Clam" wrote in message
...
From what I can tell you have TWO options with the RIAA equalization with
the TerraTec card.
The onboard hardware solution that is inside the breakout box is not
really
a consideration as I do think that would be inferior to a very good phono
preamp.
But I don't find anywhere on the internet any information comparing a
software RIAA equalization with an equalization done by a good phono
preamp.

I think you will find the software approach fine above a couple of hundred
hertz, but seriously inferior below 100 Hz.
The real problem is that you still need some gain somewhere, because no
cartridge will give you the 1V you need to drive the soundcard. So you may
as well use an RIAA pre-amp as a flat one.

I don't really think (from reading the reviews) that the DMX
6Fire tries to be that much to too many people. True the Mia is pretty
much
a sound only device, but the DMX 6Fire dumps a lot of traditional "gaming"
functions and seems to concentrate on just music but is also a much newer
card.

I think the Mia has better performance, and the software eq approach can be
used with either card anyway.
The performance of the card is *far* more critical with the software EQ
approach though.

You are right, this is a contest between a good traditional hardware
solution as represented by a decent phono-preamp (typically in the $600 to
$1,200 range) and what is now possible in software.

Either card and a $200 RIAA pre-amp will probably give you better quality
than any of your vinyl records are capable of.
Anybody who thinks you need less than 1dB RIAA EQ error doesn't know how
much Freq Resp error is on the disks they are playing!
(Or just how much they could pick in a blind test anyway.)

TonyP.

"Jimmy The Clam" wrote in message
...
From what I can tell you have TWO options with the RIAA equalization with
the TerraTec card.
The onboard hardware solution that is inside the breakout box is not
really
a consideration as I do think that would be inferior to a very good phono
preamp.
But I don't find anywhere on the internet any information comparing a
software RIAA equalization with an equalization done by a good phono
preamp.

I think you will find the software approach fine above a couple of hundred
hertz, but seriously inferior below 100 Hz.
The real problem is that you still need some gain somewhere, because no
cartridge will give you the 1V you need to drive the soundcard. So you may
as well use an RIAA pre-amp as a flat one.

I don't really think (from reading the reviews) that the DMX
6Fire tries to be that much to too many people. True the Mia is pretty
much
a sound only device, but the DMX 6Fire dumps a lot of traditional "gaming"
functions and seems to concentrate on just music but is also a much newer
card.

I think the Mia has better performance, and the software eq approach can be
used with either card anyway.
The performance of the card is *far* more critical with the software EQ
approach though.

You are right, this is a contest between a good traditional hardware
solution as represented by a decent phono-preamp (typically in the $600 to
$1,200 range) and what is now possible in software.

Either card and a $200 RIAA pre-amp will probably give you better quality
than any of your vinyl records are capable of.
Anybody who thinks you need less than 1dB RIAA EQ error doesn't know how
much Freq Resp error is on the disks they are playing!
(Or just how much they could pick in a blind test anyway.)

TonyP.

Jimmy The Clam wrote:

"Codifus" wrote in message
om...

I don't think this is a comparison between a phono pre-amp and
software. It's more like a comparison between a regular audio
stand-alone phono pre-amp verses the phono pre-amp inside the
TerreTec card.

You seem to have missed an important point - the phono preamp inside the
Terretec card 's interface box is not like most phono preamps. It lacks
equalization.

Hardware vs hardware.

Hardware versus hardware + software

In which case, the one that sounds better to you would win.

But of course, and if cost is no object, the dedicated hardware solution can
reasonably to win.

The Terra card phono input is simply
a phono pre-amp mated to its 24/96 AD stage.

Read the doc. They seem to be saying that the equalization is done inside
the PC.

I think there may have
been a bit of a compromise to add the phono pre-amp electronics onto
that card.

The major cause for any compromises would be simply cost.

If it was my choice, I would go with the separate pre-amp
and an Echo card.

Been there done that, it works. I have a Apt/Holman preamp and a
ConRad-Johnson preamp for he purpose. Just hook the main output of the
preamp to the line input of the sound card, adjust the volume control on the
preamp for no clipping with the loudest band on a trackability test record
and you are stylin'!

The purist in me likes that because Echo is a
company that conecentrates on just audio, and a separate phono
pre-amp will concentrate on being jsut one thing, a good phono pre
amp.

In my case the preamps were on hand. Mis-spent youth!

Compare that to the phono pre-amp built into the TerraTec card.

The approach they use could be surprisingly good. Low noise opamps are dirt
cheap. Parts like stereo volume controls with good channel tracking and
high-quality equalization components cost money. They reduced the hardware
load to just the opamps and a few other low cost parts.

The TerraTec card sounds like it wants to be everything for
everybody. Built in phono pre-amp, DTS sound, the works. Usually
that means compromise.

One word: price.

From what I can tell you have TWO options with the RIAA equalization
with the TerraTec card.
The onboard hardware solution that is inside the breakout box is not
really a consideration as I do think that would be inferior to a very
good phono preamp.

I think I posted an analysis of why that must be, and how much of a
compromise it will be.

But I don't find anywhere on the internet any information comparing a
software RIAA equalization with an equalization done by a good phono
preamp.

I'd put my money on the software.

With older hardware from a just a few years ago, I would
think that a software solution would be seriously lacking because of
the limited processing power available and the necessity of
off-loading every function possible onto hardware from the CPU for
performance reasons is, I think, behind us.

Agreed.

I don't really think
(from reading the reviews) that the DMX 6Fire tries to be that much
to too many people. True the Mia is pretty much a sound only device,
but the DMX 6Fire dumps a lot of traditional "gaming" functions and
seems to concentrate on just music but is also a much newer card.

The DMX 6Fire shows up on eCost at $222.04. The Echo Mia shows up at
$199.95 . You should remember that despite the fancy TRS connectors, the Mia
has unbalanced I/O. The Mia would be a better match with other audio
production equipment, I think. The RCA jacks on the 6Fire position it as a
consumer audio device.

You are right, this is a contest between a good traditional hardware
solution as represented by a decent phono-preamp (typically in the
$600 to $1,200 range) and what is now possible in software.

The DMX 6Fire wins on the grounds of price, if that is the most important
thing.

The preamps I have been considering in order of price are the:

The Bottle Head "Seduction" kit (the build it yourself option)
http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobesp.../seduction.htm

Black Cube SE phono stage
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/blcubee.html

EAR 834P PHONOBOX
http://www.ear-yoshino.com/productde...p?page=6&id=20

Or surf eBay for some classic gear like the Holman, that still sells for a
reasonable price. I paid about $75 for mine - the CJ came from a private
auction some years ago for even less but I don't think that could be
duplicated today.

Also:

http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/ca...h ono+Preamps

http://www.kabusa.com/index_pp.htm

Jimmy The Clam wrote:

"Codifus" wrote in message
om...

I don't think this is a comparison between a phono pre-amp and
software. It's more like a comparison between a regular audio
stand-alone phono pre-amp verses the phono pre-amp inside the
TerreTec card.

You seem to have missed an important point - the phono preamp inside the
Terretec card 's interface box is not like most phono preamps. It lacks
equalization.

Hardware vs hardware.

Hardware versus hardware + software

In which case, the one that sounds better to you would win.

But of course, and if cost is no object, the dedicated hardware solution can
reasonably to win.

The Terra card phono input is simply
a phono pre-amp mated to its 24/96 AD stage.

Read the doc. They seem to be saying that the equalization is done inside
the PC.

I think there may have
been a bit of a compromise to add the phono pre-amp electronics onto
that card.

The major cause for any compromises would be simply cost.

If it was my choice, I would go with the separate pre-amp
and an Echo card.

Been there done that, it works. I have a Apt/Holman preamp and a
ConRad-Johnson preamp for he purpose. Just hook the main output of the
preamp to the line input of the sound card, adjust the volume control on the
preamp for no clipping with the loudest band on a trackability test record
and you are stylin'!

The purist in me likes that because Echo is a
company that conecentrates on just audio, and a separate phono
pre-amp will concentrate on being jsut one thing, a good phono pre
amp.

In my case the preamps were on hand. Mis-spent youth!

Compare that to the phono pre-amp built into the TerraTec card.

The approach they use could be surprisingly good. Low noise opamps are dirt
cheap. Parts like stereo volume controls with good channel tracking and
high-quality equalization components cost money. They reduced the hardware
load to just the opamps and a few other low cost parts.

The TerraTec card sounds like it wants to be everything for
everybody. Built in phono pre-amp, DTS sound, the works. Usually
that means compromise.

One word: price.

From what I can tell you have TWO options with the RIAA equalization
with the TerraTec card.
The onboard hardware solution that is inside the breakout box is not
really a consideration as I do think that would be inferior to a very
good phono preamp.

I think I posted an analysis of why that must be, and how much of a
compromise it will be.

But I don't find anywhere on the internet any information comparing a
software RIAA equalization with an equalization done by a good phono
preamp.

I'd put my money on the software.

With older hardware from a just a few years ago, I would
think that a software solution would be seriously lacking because of
the limited processing power available and the necessity of
off-loading every function possible onto hardware from the CPU for
performance reasons is, I think, behind us.

Agreed.

I don't really think
(from reading the reviews) that the DMX 6Fire tries to be that much
to too many people. True the Mia is pretty much a sound only device,
but the DMX 6Fire dumps a lot of traditional "gaming" functions and
seems to concentrate on just music but is also a much newer card.

The DMX 6Fire shows up on eCost at $222.04. The Echo Mia shows up at
$199.95 . You should remember that despite the fancy TRS connectors, the Mia
has unbalanced I/O. The Mia would be a better match with other audio
production equipment, I think. The RCA jacks on the 6Fire position it as a
consumer audio device.

You are right, this is a contest between a good traditional hardware
solution as represented by a decent phono-preamp (typically in the
$600 to $1,200 range) and what is now possible in software.

The DMX 6Fire wins on the grounds of price, if that is the most important
thing.

The preamps I have been considering in order of price are the:

The Bottle Head "Seduction" kit (the build it yourself option)
http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobesp.../seduction.htm

Black Cube SE phono stage
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/blcubee.html

EAR 834P PHONOBOX
http://www.ear-yoshino.com/productde...p?page=6&id=20

Or surf eBay for some classic gear like the Holman, that still sells for a
reasonable price. I paid about $75 for mine - the CJ came from a private
auction some years ago for even less but I don't think that could be
duplicated today.

Also:

http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/ca...h ono+Preamps

http://www.kabusa.com/index_pp.htm

Jimmy The Clam wrote:

"Codifus" wrote in message
om...

I don't think this is a comparison between a phono pre-amp and
software. It's more like a comparison between a regular audio
stand-alone phono pre-amp verses the phono pre-amp inside the
TerreTec card.

You seem to have missed an important point - the phono preamp inside the
Terretec card 's interface box is not like most phono preamps. It lacks
equalization.

Hardware vs hardware.

Hardware versus hardware + software

In which case, the one that sounds better to you would win.

But of course, and if cost is no object, the dedicated hardware solution can
reasonably to win.

The Terra card phono input is simply
a phono pre-amp mated to its 24/96 AD stage.

Read the doc. They seem to be saying that the equalization is done inside
the PC.

I think there may have
been a bit of a compromise to add the phono pre-amp electronics onto
that card.

The major cause for any compromises would be simply cost.

If it was my choice, I would go with the separate pre-amp
and an Echo card.

Been there done that, it works. I have a Apt/Holman preamp and a
ConRad-Johnson preamp for he purpose. Just hook the main output of the
preamp to the line input of the sound card, adjust the volume control on the
preamp for no clipping with the loudest band on a trackability test record
and you are stylin'!

The purist in me likes that because Echo is a
company that conecentrates on just audio, and a separate phono
pre-amp will concentrate on being jsut one thing, a good phono pre
amp.

In my case the preamps were on hand. Mis-spent youth!

Compare that to the phono pre-amp built into the TerraTec card.

The approach they use could be surprisingly good. Low noise opamps are dirt
cheap. Parts like stereo volume controls with good channel tracking and
high-quality equalization components cost money. They reduced the hardware
load to just the opamps and a few other low cost parts.

The TerraTec card sounds like it wants to be everything for
everybody. Built in phono pre-amp, DTS sound, the works. Usually
that means compromise.

One word: price.

From what I can tell you have TWO options with the RIAA equalization
with the TerraTec card.
The onboard hardware solution that is inside the breakout box is not
really a consideration as I do think that would be inferior to a very
good phono preamp.

I think I posted an analysis of why that must be, and how much of a
compromise it will be.

But I don't find anywhere on the internet any information comparing a
software RIAA equalization with an equalization done by a good phono
preamp.

I'd put my money on the software.

With older hardware from a just a few years ago, I would
think that a software solution would be seriously lacking because of
the limited processing power available and the necessity of
off-loading every function possible onto hardware from the CPU for
performance reasons is, I think, behind us.

Agreed.

I don't really think
(from reading the reviews) that the DMX 6Fire tries to be that much
to too many people. True the Mia is pretty much a sound only device,
but the DMX 6Fire dumps a lot of traditional "gaming" functions and
seems to concentrate on just music but is also a much newer card.

The DMX 6Fire shows up on eCost at $222.04. The Echo Mia shows up at
$199.95 . You should remember that despite the fancy TRS connectors, the Mia
has unbalanced I/O. The Mia would be a better match with other audio
production equipment, I think. The RCA jacks on the 6Fire position it as a
consumer audio device.

You are right, this is a contest between a good traditional hardware
solution as represented by a decent phono-preamp (typically in the
$600 to $1,200 range) and what is now possible in software.

The DMX 6Fire wins on the grounds of price, if that is the most important
thing.

The preamps I have been considering in order of price are the:

The Bottle Head "Seduction" kit (the build it yourself option)
http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobesp.../seduction.htm

Black Cube SE phono stage
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/blcubee.html

EAR 834P PHONOBOX
http://www.ear-yoshino.com/productde...p?page=6&id=20

Or surf eBay for some classic gear like the Holman, that still sells for a
reasonable price. I paid about $75 for mine - the CJ came from a private
auction some years ago for even less but I don't think that could be
duplicated today.

Also:

http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/ca...h ono+Preamps

http://www.kabusa.com/index_pp.htm