[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:
"William Sommerwerck"
wrote in message
...
THAT was the high-end in 1953. And I
can attest to the fact that other than the phono
player/cartridge itself,
the mono sound would stand up to almost anything out
there today.

I'm sure the sound was musically pleasing, but it's
unlikely it matched the
absolute fidelity of modern equipment.

I know that is the conventional wisdom....but have you
heard one of these older JBL corner horn
speakers....driven by a fine tube amp?

I have. The dynamics are good, and tonally they are
about right, but they all honk.

From my perspective, I don't think electronics today are
really any better than electronics in 1953, but
transducers today are a whole lot better.

These were the JBL horns baffled with dispersion layers
like a honeycomb....specifically designed to minimize
this aspect of horn design.

Scott is right - they still honked.

Jim Lansing was the chief
designer for Altec Lansing and with that company he had
pushed conventional horn design about as far as it would
go....the JBL's were circular, not flared, horns with
dispersion baffles. It is these I am referring to, not
generic early '50's horn types. Have you heard these
specifically leading to your opinion, or to flare-type
horns used by Jensen, University, Electro-Voice, Klipsch,
etc.?

There have been two major revolutions in horn technology since then. There
was the constant directivity revolution of the late 70s and early 80s, and
then there has more recently been the waveguide revolution which is
currently in progress. The compression drivers of those days were not
nearly as backward as what they were bolted onto.

IME the Altec 604 sounded better than the JBL 001 system, by far. I had a
pair of each at my disposal in college.

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:
"William Sommerwerck"
wrote in message
...
THAT was the high-end in 1953. And I
can attest to the fact that other than the phono
player/cartridge itself,
the mono sound would stand up to almost anything out
there today.

I'm sure the sound was musically pleasing, but it's
unlikely it matched the
absolute fidelity of modern equipment.

I know that is the conventional wisdom....but have you
heard one of these older JBL corner horn
speakers....driven by a fine tube amp?

I have. The dynamics are good, and tonally they are
about right, but they all honk.

From my perspective, I don't think electronics today are
really any better than electronics in 1953, but
transducers today are a whole lot better.

These were the JBL horns baffled with dispersion layers
like a honeycomb....specifically designed to minimize
this aspect of horn design.

Scott is right - they still honked.

Jim Lansing was the chief
designer for Altec Lansing and with that company he had
pushed conventional horn design about as far as it would
go....the JBL's were circular, not flared, horns with
dispersion baffles. It is these I am referring to, not
generic early '50's horn types. Have you heard these
specifically leading to your opinion, or to flare-type.
horns used by Jensen, University, Electro-Voice, Klipsch,
etc.?

There have been two major revolutions in horn technology since then. There
was the constant directivity revolution of the late 70s and early 80s, and
then there has more recently been the waveguide revolution which is
currently in progress. The compression drivers of those days were not
nearly as backward as what they were bolted onto.

IME the Altec 604 sounded better than the JBL 001 system, by far. I had a
pair of each at my disposal in college.

You are welcome to your opinion. My dad sold them all, including the
Altecs. System for system, for size and price, the JBL's sounded much more
realistic to my ears, and to his. The Utahs brought up the rear....talk
about honk....the EV's could sound good on some things and terrible on
others.

I still am not sure you are talking about the same horn as I am.

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


Jim Lansing was the chief
designer for Altec Lansing and with that company he had
pushed conventional horn design about as far as it would
go....the JBL's were circular, not flared, horns with
dispersion baffles. It is these I am referring to, not
generic early '50's horn types. Have you heard these
specifically leading to your opinion, or to flare-type.
horns used by Jensen, University, Electro-Voice,
Klipsch, etc.?

There have been two major revolutions in horn technology
since then. There was the constant directivity
revolution of the late 70s and early 80s, and then there
has more recently been the waveguide revolution which is
currently in progress. The compression drivers of those
days were not nearly as backward as what they were
bolted onto.

Harry has no comment.

IME the Altec 604 sounded better than the JBL 001
system, by far. I had a pair of each at my disposal in
college.

You are welcome to your opinion.

As you are to yours.

My dad sold them all,

Nope. There were others that you haven't mentioned that I heard in those
days. Wharfedale comes to mind. Jensen is another. People have mentioned
Tannoys, and IME they were even better than the 604s.

You've treated Klipsch and EV like they were distinct in those days, but in
fact Klipsch bought his horn mids and tweets from EV.

I have a friend who has a EV system with Mac amps that he restored from the
days of, and its not all that bad, but of course nothing like the better
modern alternatives.

Here's some of the least honky of the modern horns:
http://www.gedlee.com/Summa.htm . I doubt that there's anybody here who has
heard them.

[William Sommerwerck]

You are welcome to your opinion. My dad sold them all, including
the Altecs. System for system, for size and price, the JBL's sounded
much more realistic to my ears, and to his. The Utahs brought up the
rear... talk about honk... the EV's could sound good on some things
and terrible on others.

It seems a truism that, as audio equipment became more objectively accurate,
it also became less "realistic". This was likely due to early "good"
equipment having a limited top end, which permitted "loud", "forward",
"effortless" playback. A more-accurate and balanced sound can seem insipid
at moderate levels and downright annoying at higher levels.

J Gordon Holt touched on this (indirectly) in a review of the early
Magneplanars when he remarked that the Maggies sounded like a very realistic
speaker -- playing under a blanket.

My current system is Apogee Divas driven by Parasound A21 amplifiers. On the
very best program material, the sound is legitimately "realistic" -- a real
orchestra playing in a plausible acoustic space -- not the "fat midrange"
"ultra-presence" sound associated with the classic equipment you're talking
about.

[Harry Lavo]

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
You are welcome to your opinion. My dad sold them all, including
the Altecs. System for system, for size and price, the JBL's sounded
much more realistic to my ears, and to his. The Utahs brought up the
rear... talk about honk... the EV's could sound good on some things
and terrible on others.

It seems a truism that, as audio equipment became more objectively
accurate,
it also became less "realistic". This was likely due to early "good"
equipment having a limited top end, which permitted "loud", "forward",
"effortless" playback. A more-accurate and balanced sound can seem insipid
at moderate levels and downright annoying at higher levels.

J Gordon Holt touched on this (indirectly) in a review of the early
Magneplanars when he remarked that the Maggies sounded like a very
realistic
speaker -- playing under a blanket.

My current system is Apogee Divas driven by Parasound A21 amplifiers. On
the
very best program material, the sound is legitimately "realistic" -- a
real
orchestra playing in a plausible acoustic space -- not the "fat midrange"
"ultra-presence" sound associated with the classic equipment you're
talking
about.

I somewhat agree with you, given enough power. That's why the AR-3's
sounded more realistic on hand-clapping but couldn't get "out-of-the-box"
until driven to very high levels.

But for day-in, day-out listening to music my dad's Newcomb/JBL system was
hard to beat playing at moderate levels...and it spoiled me for a lot of
what came later and I suspect would suprise you by how well this specific
JBL speaker/Newcomb amplifier combo would stand up today (I would add Arny's
JBL ring-radiator to it today). Keep in mind, these highly efficient
speakers used mostly that "first watt" of power and were effortless in
their dynamic range...which to a considerable degree is what music is about.
You could "hear into" this system to a very high degree. You can also do
that with my Thiels or your Apolgee Divas driven by 200-300wpc amps, I will
grant you. But side-by-side in a blind test at moderate listening volumn,
I'm not sure which would be preferred by most audiophiles today.

[William Sommerwerck]

But for day-in, day-out listening to music my dad's Newcomb/JBL system was
hard to beat playing at moderate levels...and it spoiled me for a lot of
what came later and I suspect would suprise you by how well this specific
JBL speaker/Newcomb amplifier combo would stand up today (I would add
Arny's
JBL ring-radiator to it today). Keep in mind, these highly efficient
speakers used mostly that "first watt" of power and were effortless in
their dynamic range...which to a considerable degree is what music is
about.
You could "hear into" this system to a very high degree. You can also do
that with my Thiels or your Apolgee Divas driven by 200-300wpc amps, I
will
grant you. But side-by-side in a blind test at moderate listening volumn,
I'm not sure which would be preferred by most audiophiles today.

I'd certainly like to listen to them, if only to see how I reacted.

The last time I heard an "old-fashioned" system was when I visited my late
friend Greg Lefebvre in Houston about 15 years ago. He took me around to an
EE who had Bozak Concert Grands and tube amplification. The sound was (to
the best of my memory) very impressive, but not what I would consider on the
"accuracy" level of modern speakers.

By the way, my Divas are bi-amped, and need relatively little power to reach
fairly high levels.