[MOSFET]

Ok, I had them crossed over at 3500 Hz at 12 dB per octave using a Coustix
XM-3 crossover. The amp I was using to drive the pair was a Jensen A46XP
(60 watts X 2 RMS). I THOUGHT that was a high enough X-over point.
Obviously I was mistaken. My wife was showing off the system to a friend of
hers at work when it happened and she says they were REALLY CRANKING (she
said like ear bleeding levels) it for over 15-20 minutes, but no audible
distortion or crackling or other indications of distress they said. Before,
I had turned it way up a number of times with no problems.

Besides the obvious, too low a X-over point, any ideas as to why they blew?
Too much power? I intend to buy another pair of the same tweets (because I
LOVED the sound) and I DO NOT want to make the same mistake so any advice
would be welcome. Thanks guys.

Nick aka MOSFET

[Mister.Lull]

Really dumb question to follow:
What rms are they rated for?
~Mister.Lull
MOSFET wrote:
Ok, I had them crossed over at 3500 Hz at 12 dB per octave using a Coustix
XM-3 crossover. The amp I was using to drive the pair was a Jensen A46XP
(60 watts X 2 RMS). I THOUGHT that was a high enough X-over point.
Obviously I was mistaken. My wife was showing off the system to a friend of
hers at work when it happened and she says they were REALLY CRANKING (she
said like ear bleeding levels) it for over 15-20 minutes, but no audible
distortion or crackling or other indications of distress they said. Before,
I had turned it way up a number of times with no problems.

Besides the obvious, too low a X-over point, any ideas as to why they blew?
Too much power? I intend to buy another pair of the same tweets (because I
LOVED the sound) and I DO NOT want to make the same mistake so any advice
would be welcome. Thanks guys.

Nick aka MOSFET

[[email protected]]

MOSFET wrote:
Ok, I had them crossed over at 3500 Hz at 12 dB per octave using a Coustix
XM-3 crossover. The amp I was using to drive the pair was a Jensen A46XP
(60 watts X 2 RMS). I THOUGHT that was a high enough X-over point.
Obviously I was mistaken. My wife was showing off the system to a friend of
hers at work when it happened and she says they were REALLY CRANKING (she
said like ear bleeding levels) it for over 15-20 minutes, but no audible
distortion or crackling or other indications of distress they said. Before,
I had turned it way up a number of times with no problems.

Besides the obvious, too low a X-over point, any ideas as to why they blew?
Too much power? I intend to buy another pair of the same tweets (because I
LOVED the sound) and I DO NOT want to make the same mistake so any advice
would be welcome. Thanks guys.

Nick aka MOSFET

3500 at 12db seems like a reasonable crossover rate. Maybe the amp
spiked? Driving the amp at that level with a delicate driver its
possible.

[MOSFET]

That's not a dumb question and I should have included that with the info.
They are rated for 50 watts RMS, 125 watts peak so I THOUGHT my 60 watt amp
would be OK. Perhaps not. Perhaps I should be using a MUCH smaller amp.
This is the kind of advice I would like.

ESPECIALLY IF ANYONE HAS EVER BI-AMPED A SET OF JL VR SEPARATES. I WOULD
LOVE TO KNOW WHAT POWER AMPS WERE USED.

Maybe I should be using a 30 watt per channel amp to drive them.

Thanks,

MOSFET

"Mister.Lull" wrote in message
ups.com...
Really dumb question to follow:
What rms are they rated for?
~Mister.Lull
MOSFET wrote:
Ok, I had them crossed over at 3500 Hz at 12 dB per octave using a
Coustix
XM-3 crossover. The amp I was using to drive the pair was a Jensen A46XP
(60 watts X 2 RMS). I THOUGHT that was a high enough X-over point.
Obviously I was mistaken. My wife was showing off the system to a friend
of
hers at work when it happened and she says they were REALLY CRANKING (she
said like ear bleeding levels) it for over 15-20 minutes, but no audible
distortion or crackling or other indications of distress they said.
Before,
I had turned it way up a number of times with no problems.

Besides the obvious, too low a X-over point, any ideas as to why they
blew?
Too much power? I intend to buy another pair of the same tweets (because
I
LOVED the sound) and I DO NOT want to make the same mistake so any advice
would be welcome. Thanks guys.

Nick aka MOSFET

[winkenstein]

MOSFET:

Your Kidding Right?
didn't you JUST get these tweeters?
i seem to remember reading you bragging about installing them just the
other day.

how saddening!
how disgustingly saddening!

i am so sorry to here about your lose :lol:

[winkenstein]

well, just FYI,
I am using a small sony amp (25w X2)
to power my JL:XR100-CT tweeters,
and they sound absolutely fabulous
and they are rated for 70W continuous and 175W peak,
if that helps any?

and i've been playing them for over a year,
and no flaws so far (knock on wood)
and they absolutely scream! with that sort of power,
using the C/O from the XR525-CSi componets set, Bi-Amp'ed

Just FYI.

[MOSFET]

Yes, I just got them and I REALLY LOVED them. My wife was crazy about them
as well as she could hear detail in her music she had never heard before
(because we could turn the treble up louder without that abrasive quality of
the Quarts). I am very sad.

MOSFET

"winkenstein" wrote in message
ups.com...

MOSFET:

Your Kidding Right?
didn't you JUST get these tweeters?
i seem to remember reading you bragging about installing them just the
other day.

how saddening!
how disgustingly saddening!

i am so sorry to here about your lose :lol:

[MOSFET]

well, just FYI,
I am using a small sony amp (25w X2)
to power my JL:XR100-CT tweeters,
and they sound absolutely fabulous
and they are rated for 70W continuous and 175W peak,
if that helps any?

Thanks! That helps alot, actually. I have decided to change amplifiers when
I get my new pair of JL's. I was thinking of about 30 watts per channel.
You are absolutely right, they just don't need a lot power despite what they
are rated for, and it appears it is dangerous to operate them even a little
past their rated power. Thanks.

Nick

[Captain Howdy]

After all that's been said, all that I can say is ROFL.

In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Ok, I had them crossed over at 3500 Hz at 12 dB per octave using a Coustix
XM-3 crossover. The amp I was using to drive the pair was a Jensen A46XP
(60 watts X 2 RMS). I THOUGHT that was a high enough X-over point.
Obviously I was mistaken. My wife was showing off the system to a friend of
hers at work when it happened and she says they were REALLY CRANKING (she
said like ear bleeding levels) it for over 15-20 minutes, but no audible
distortion or crackling or other indications of distress they said. Before,
I had turned it way up a number of times with no problems.

Besides the obvious, too low a X-over point, any ideas as to why they blew?
Too much power? I intend to buy another pair of the same tweets (because I
LOVED the sound) and I DO NOT want to make the same mistake so any advice
would be welcome. Thanks guys.

Nick aka MOSFET

[RG]

Well ... in my opinion you were crossing them over too low with only a 12db
slope. I had mentioned this before (see my reply to your post below about
which tweeters to get) but most tweeters should usually be crossed over at
least two octaves above their free air resonance. Since these tweeters have
an Fs of 1800hz you are looking at a xover in the neigborhood of 5000 to
5400hz. In fact, JL's passive crossover for these uses a 12db Butterworth
filter at 5000hz. These are 3/4" tweeters and should not be playing at too
high a level down in the 2500hz region, which a 3500hz xover allows. They
sound really good crossed over at 5000hz by the way.
The second thing I would mention is that I would not for a second trust the
frequency calibrations on inexpensive xovers designed around variable pots.
They just do not have tight tolerances. It is entirely feasible that you
were crossing over well below 3500hz. These pots have tolerance rates in the
20 to 25% range.
If it were me, and I was still going to use that xover, I would keep the
filter point at least at 5000hz. Either that or get a more precise xover
with a steeper filter. BTW, I use 2 channels of an Excelon 501F to power
these same JL tweeters. It is rated at a minimum of 75 wpc and more likely
puts out more. The thing is, you will probably never put many watts to a
tweeter in the 4000hz range. But there is plenty of energy in the 2000 hz
range. There are a few tweeters that can successfully be crossed over at
2750 to 3500 hz but this is not one of them. It has nothing to do with their
sound quality, it is just the way they were designed.

- RG


"MOSFET" wrote in message
m...
Ok, I had them crossed over at 3500 Hz at 12 dB per octave using a Coustix
XM-3 crossover. The amp I was using to drive the pair was a Jensen A46XP
(60 watts X 2 RMS). I THOUGHT that was a high enough X-over point.
Obviously I was mistaken. My wife was showing off the system to a friend
of hers at work when it happened and she says they were REALLY CRANKING
(she said like ear bleeding levels) it for over 15-20 minutes, but no
audible distortion or crackling or other indications of distress they
said. Before, I had turned it way up a number of times with no problems.

Besides the obvious, too low a X-over point, any ideas as to why they
blew? Too much power? I intend to buy another pair of the same tweets
(because I LOVED the sound) and I DO NOT want to make the same mistake so
any advice would be welcome. Thanks guys.

Nick aka MOSFET

[Captain Howdy]

My two cents,

The tweeters were crossed over at 500hz less then what they should of been by
spec. This lowered the power handling of the tweeters. The system was more
then likely cranked up with the engine off or at idle. His outdated class A/B
amp sucked the system power dry, the amp clipped, that was the end of his
tweeters. Like I said before the cleanness of these cheap amps have a very
small window especially when you drive them at lower voltages then normal.

Seeing Misfit's pics his battery is an older Optima that more then likely due
to age is not up to spec and the factory charging systems in those trucks
aren't worth a damn and even more so at idle.


Nick aka MOSFET

3500 at 12db seems like a reasonable crossover rate. Maybe the amp
spiked? Driving the amp at that level with a delicate driver its
possible.

[Chad Wahls]

MOSFET wrote:
Ok, I had them crossed over at 3500 Hz at 12 dB per octave using a Coustix
XM-3 crossover. The amp I was using to drive the pair was a Jensen A46XP
(60 watts X 2 RMS). I THOUGHT that was a high enough X-over point.
Obviously I was mistaken. My wife was showing off the system to a friend of
hers at work when it happened and she says they were REALLY CRANKING (she
said like ear bleeding levels) it for over 15-20 minutes, but no audible
distortion or crackling or other indications of distress they said. Before,
I had turned it way up a number of times with no problems.

Besides the obvious, too low a X-over point, any ideas as to why they blew?
Too much power? I intend to buy another pair of the same tweets (because I
LOVED the sound) and I DO NOT want to make the same mistake so any advice
would be welcome. Thanks guys.

Nick aka MOSFET

Maybe try a steeper slope like 18dB/Oct or 24dB/Oct I Much prefer
24dB/Oct for protection and phase response purposes. Now see, if you
could lose the rear speakers like a real SQ guy you would not need that
coustic crossover eh? Just use the Alpine

Chad

[MOSFET]

That's good advice. I will cross them over much higher next time, AT LEAST
4500 Hz I would think.

MOSFET

"RG" wrote in message
...
Well ... in my opinion you were crossing them over too low with only a
12db slope. I had mentioned this before (see my reply to your post below
about which tweeters to get) but most tweeters should usually be crossed
over at least two octaves above their free air resonance. Since these
tweeters have an Fs of 1800hz you are looking at a xover in the
neigborhood of 5000 to 5400hz. In fact, JL's passive crossover for these
uses a 12db Butterworth filter at 5000hz. These are 3/4" tweeters and
should not be playing at too high a level down in the 2500hz region, which
a 3500hz xover allows. They sound really good crossed over at 5000hz by
the way.
The second thing I would mention is that I would not for a second trust
the frequency calibrations on inexpensive xovers designed around variable
pots. They just do not have tight tolerances. It is entirely feasible that
you were crossing over well below 3500hz. These pots have tolerance rates
in the 20 to 25% range.
If it were me, and I was still going to use that xover, I would keep the
filter point at least at 5000hz. Either that or get a more precise xover
with a steeper filter. BTW, I use 2 channels of an Excelon 501F to power
these same JL tweeters. It is rated at a minimum of 75 wpc and more likely
puts out more. The thing is, you will probably never put many watts to a
tweeter in the 4000hz range. But there is plenty of energy in the 2000 hz
range. There are a few tweeters that can successfully be crossed over at
2750 to 3500 hz but this is not one of them. It has nothing to do with
their sound quality, it is just the way they were designed.

- RG


"MOSFET" wrote in message
m...
Ok, I had them crossed over at 3500 Hz at 12 dB per octave using a
Coustix XM-3 crossover. The amp I was using to drive the pair was a
Jensen A46XP (60 watts X 2 RMS). I THOUGHT that was a high enough X-over
point. Obviously I was mistaken. My wife was showing off the system to a
friend of hers at work when it happened and she says they were REALLY
CRANKING (she said like ear bleeding levels) it for over 15-20 minutes,
but no audible distortion or crackling or other indications of distress
they said. Before, I had turned it way up a number of times with no
problems.

Besides the obvious, too low a X-over point, any ideas as to why they
blew? Too much power? I intend to buy another pair of the same tweets
(because I LOVED the sound) and I DO NOT want to make the same mistake so
any advice would be welcome. Thanks guys.

Nick aka MOSFET

[MOSFET]

After all that's been said, all that I can say is ROFL.

You're really a jerk, do you that? That's my $.02. Why don't you leave and
find another newsgroup where you can laugh at other's problems, you prick.

Nick

[John Durbin]

bah... get better tweeters or a better crossover. I have been running a
pair of a/d/s/ cs tweeters (from the 346cs system) with my XES system,
using a freaking PCX-280 for power just on the tweeters. Now, the slope
is MUCH steeper (36 or 72 dB/octave, I forget which but something silly
high like that) but I am using way more power than you were (the 280 is
good for well over 100 WPC driving a 4 ohm load) and I have played with
crossover points between 2.5kHz and up into the high 3kHz range with
zero damage. I think I settled on something around 2.8kHz for normal use.

I occasionally like to torture the system - and my ears! - with
something really offensive and nasty like Humble Pie's 30 days in the
Hole or Grand Funk Railroad Inside Looking Out, which (if I got the
title right) has about a 5 minute guitar solo that sounds like it was
recorded with about 20% of intentional distortion. Intros to Aerosmith's
Mama Kin or Guns & Roses Sweet Child O' Mine lights them up really nice,
too.

I am talking about playing the system cranked to levels that would be
respectable if you were standing close to the stage at a live event, and
zero damage to the tweeters in over 2 years. I have killed one sub
(1000W PPI DCX-124) by getting stupid with a Sub Zone bass CD, and a
pair of 6.5" mids (one had a defective v/c and just died, the other one
I BBQ'd one day while they were high-passed at 78Hz where I usually use
88Hz). I am running the tweeters unprotected, directly off the outputs
of the amp.

I had similar results with an older system using our old DEI Studio 25mm
silk domes - ran them biamped at 3.5kHz with about 65WPC power and never
had any problems. That was also an XES system, so same steep slope.

Done right this sounds exceptional and if the tweeter isn't too wimpy,
will take a fair amount of listener abuse w/o dying. Also helps to not
clip the amp, which makes me question you backing up to a smaller one
than you have now. I'd stick thermal breakers (polyswitches) in series
before I went smaller on the power.

JD

MOSFET wrote:
well, just FYI,
I am using a small sony amp (25w X2)
to power my JL:XR100-CT tweeters,
and they sound absolutely fabulous
and they are rated for 70W continuous and 175W peak,
if that helps any?


Thanks! That helps alot, actually. I have decided to change amplifiers when
I get my new pair of JL's. I was thinking of about 30 watts per channel.
You are absolutely right, they just don't need a lot power despite what they
are rated for, and it appears it is dangerous to operate them even a little
past their rated power. Thanks.

Nick

[MOSFET]

I think I will look at ADS. I am beginning to wonder if I just plain need a
power powerful tweeter. I have always liked the sound of ADS speakers.
Thanks for the feedback.

MOSFET

"John Durbin" wrote in message
...
bah... get better tweeters or a better crossover. I have been running a
pair of a/d/s/ cs tweeters (from the 346cs system) with my XES system,
using a freaking PCX-280 for power just on the tweeters. Now, the slope is
MUCH steeper (36 or 72 dB/octave, I forget which but something silly high
like that) but I am using way more power than you were (the 280 is good
for well over 100 WPC driving a 4 ohm load) and I have played with
crossover points between 2.5kHz and up into the high 3kHz range with zero
damage. I think I settled on something around 2.8kHz for normal use.

I occasionally like to torture the system - and my ears! - with something
really offensive and nasty like Humble Pie's 30 days in the Hole or Grand
Funk Railroad Inside Looking Out, which (if I got the title right) has
about a 5 minute guitar solo that sounds like it was recorded with about
20% of intentional distortion. Intros to Aerosmith's Mama Kin or Guns &
Roses Sweet Child O' Mine lights them up really nice, too.

I am talking about playing the system cranked to levels that would be
respectable if you were standing close to the stage at a live event, and
zero damage to the tweeters in over 2 years. I have killed one sub (1000W
PPI DCX-124) by getting stupid with a Sub Zone bass CD, and a pair of 6.5"
mids (one had a defective v/c and just died, the other one I BBQ'd one day
while they were high-passed at 78Hz where I usually use 88Hz). I am
running the tweeters unprotected, directly off the outputs of the amp.

I had similar results with an older system using our old DEI Studio 25mm
silk domes - ran them biamped at 3.5kHz with about 65WPC power and never
had any problems. That was also an XES system, so same steep slope.

Done right this sounds exceptional and if the tweeter isn't too wimpy,
will take a fair amount of listener abuse w/o dying. Also helps to not
clip the amp, which makes me question you backing up to a smaller one than
you have now. I'd stick thermal breakers (polyswitches) in series before I
went smaller on the power.

JD

MOSFET wrote:
well, just FYI,
I am using a small sony amp (25w X2)
to power my JL:XR100-CT tweeters,
and they sound absolutely fabulous
and they are rated for 70W continuous and 175W peak,
if that helps any?


Thanks! That helps alot, actually. I have decided to change amplifiers
when I get my new pair of JL's. I was thinking of about 30 watts per
channel. You are absolutely right, they just don't need a lot power
despite what they are rated for, and it appears it is dangerous to
operate them even a little past their rated power. Thanks.

Nick

[Captain Howdy]

Listen up swapshop dick, I mean nick. Life sucks when it's got you by the
balls. I don't laugh at other's problems, I laugh at you mr.SQ. I told you to
get a JBL compression horn the last time around. Some people have to do things
and learn things the hard way, and yeah it's funny as ****. Tweedle-Dee,
Tweedle-Dum you blown a 2nd set of tweeters, that's just ****ing dumb!!!!




In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
After all that's been said, all that I can say is ROFL.

You're really a jerk, do you that? That's my $.02. Why don't you leave and
find another newsgroup where you can laugh at other's problems, you prick.

Nick

[bob wald]

mosfet you know they are laughing at you at her work right.......
you want me to take advice from a guy who wires up a system that blows?
lol
i'm never blown anything in 20 yrs..not once.....
wait i did have a pair of 4'' sparkomatics subs that stoped working. but
that happen while they were off. they just never turned back on. n they
were good speakers too. i miss them to this day.they were powered subs
too.
But thats it....
guess they were alil cheap brand thou..not very suprised...

[bob wald]

thd kills..at high volumes..with that amp i bet you were getting over
75thd ...

[Tony F]

That really, really sucks, Nick!!

Why aren't you crossing those over actively, using an amp with an adjustable
electronic xover? It will sound better and you'll have absolute control
over the xover point.

How high was the gain set on the amp? I would assume that even if your gain
was moderately set, those tweeters would never actually see the likes of 60w
per channel...and even if they did, it would only be for very short periods
of time. Weird.

My PG amps are rated at 75w per channel, and my Dyn tweets are crossed over
actively, I believe at 4500Hz or something like that. But unlike yours, mine
are rated (according to Dynaudio) at 20 - 150 watts continuous power. Sorry
about your tweets. I know you loved them. What's even cooler, is that your
wife was showing your system off. That's WAY cool!!

Tony

--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1
Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear
Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub

2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC
Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub

2006 Mustang GT Coupe
Alpine IVA-D310 DVD Head Unit, Alpine MRA-550 Digital 5.1 Amp, Boston
Acoustics Z-Series Speakers, Alpine SBS-05DC Center Channel Speaker,
Amplified MTX Thunderform Sub

[Chad Wahls]

"MOSFET" wrote in message
news
I think I will look at ADS. I am beginning to wonder if I just plain need
a power powerful tweeter. I have always liked the sound of ADS speakers.
Thanks for the feedback.

MOSFET



MOSFET....Did you get my e-mail?

Chad

[bob wald]

meant .75thd. thats the lowest that amp was getting at max power...

[Jamie Pruden]

Hi Nick,

Sorry to hear about your tweets...

I just reread the owners manual on my new XR525s and they specifically
say to use the xover *even when biamping.*

When the Godfather (http://www.theautophile.com) used to post up here,
he often mentioned putting a cap on Dynaudio tweeters when biamping.
Not for xover purposes... mostly to avoid DC offset on the amplifier.
Maybe this is what bit you... less expensive amps tend to have more DC
offset and this can cause problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_offset

http://tangentsoft.net/audio/input-cap.html

I'd rather have too much power than not enough...

smiles,
Jamie


On 2006-07-17 15:51:45 -0700, "MOSFET" said:

Ok, I had them crossed over at 3500 Hz at 12 dB per octave using a
Coustix XM-3 crossover. The amp I was using to drive the pair was a
Jensen A46XP (60 watts X 2 RMS). I THOUGHT that was a high enough
X-over point. Obviously I was mistaken. My wife was showing off the
system to a friend of hers at work when it happened and she says they
were REALLY CRANKING (she said like ear bleeding levels) it for over
15-20 minutes, but no audible distortion or crackling or other
indications of distress they said. Before, I had turned it way up a
number of times with no problems.

Besides the obvious, too low a X-over point, any ideas as to why they
blew? Too much power? I intend to buy another pair of the same tweets
(because I LOVED the sound) and I DO NOT want to make the same mistake
so any advice would be welcome. Thanks guys.

Nick aka MOSFET

[bob wald]

you can overpower anything 30% if its clean enough. i think....

[RG]

That's a new one, i.e., THD kills. Bob, do you even have the slightest
inkling of what you are talking about ?

- RG

"bob wald" wrote in message
...
thd kills..at high volumes..with that amp i bet you were getting over
75thd ...

[MOSFET]

Thanks Chad. I am definitely going to try a higher cut-off frequency but
I'm kind of stuck with the XM-3 for now which has only a 12 dB slope. My
wife allows me to spend only so much on stereo gear a month and now I have
to buy new tweets (and I have a home theater to support, SO MANY MOUTHS TO
FEED!).

You ARE absolutely right, however (you do know your Alpine Bass Engine Pro!)
about eliminating my rear-fill and using my HU's onboard X-over in three-way
mode. I would then have the option of an 18 or 24 dB X-over in a three-way
configuration. But I REALLY like the sound rear-fill gives me. It raises
my soundstage from around the lower dash to around the lower windshield.
keep in mind, my tweeters are mounted right next to my woofers in the doors.
HOWEVER (and this is something I have NEVER thought of), I could split the
midrange output and run that to my rear-fill. As I'm using the same midbass
speakers in the rear as I'm using in front, that should sound fine.

That's a killer idea, actually! Thanks Chad! You gave me something new to
consider!

MOSFET

"Chad Wahls" wrote in message
oups.com...

MOSFET wrote:
Ok, I had them crossed over at 3500 Hz at 12 dB per octave using a
Coustix
XM-3 crossover. The amp I was using to drive the pair was a Jensen A46XP
(60 watts X 2 RMS). I THOUGHT that was a high enough X-over point.
Obviously I was mistaken. My wife was showing off the system to a friend
of
hers at work when it happened and she says they were REALLY CRANKING (she
said like ear bleeding levels) it for over 15-20 minutes, but no audible
distortion or crackling or other indications of distress they said.
Before,
I had turned it way up a number of times with no problems.

Besides the obvious, too low a X-over point, any ideas as to why they
blew?
Too much power? I intend to buy another pair of the same tweets (because
I
LOVED the sound) and I DO NOT want to make the same mistake so any advice
would be welcome. Thanks guys.

Nick aka MOSFET

Maybe try a steeper slope like 18dB/Oct or 24dB/Oct I Much prefer
24dB/Oct for protection and phase response purposes. Now see, if you
could lose the rear speakers like a real SQ guy you would not need that
coustic crossover eh? Just use the Alpine

Chad

[MOSFET]

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Listen up swapshop dick, I mean nick. Life sucks when it's got you by the
balls. I don't laugh at other's problems, I laugh at you mr.SQ. I told you
to
get a JBL compression horn the last time around. Some people have to do
things
and learn things the hard way, and yeah it's funny as ****.

Oh yeah, it's a hoot. You're an idiot. Stop replying to my posts.

Nick

[MOSFET]

"Tony F" wrote in message
...
That really, really sucks, Nick!!

Why aren't you crossing those over actively, using an amp with an
adjustable electronic xover? It will sound better and you'll have
absolute control over the xover point.

I WAS crossing them over actively with a Coustic XM-3 at 3500Hz at 12 dB per
octive.


How high was the gain set on the amp? I would assume that even if your
gain was moderately set, those tweeters would never actually see the likes
of 60w per channel...and even if they did, it would only be for very short
periods of time. Weird.

My PG amps are rated at 75w per channel, and my Dyn tweets are crossed
over actively, I believe at 4500Hz or something like that. But unlike
yours, mine are rated (according to Dynaudio) at 20 - 150 watts continuous
power. Sorry about your tweets. I know you loved them. What's even
cooler, is that your wife was showing your system off. That's WAY cool!!

Tony

Thanks Tony. I appreciate your encouraging words. I am really considering
taking Chad's advice and using my Alpine's X-over in three-way mode
(tweeter, midrange, woofer) and crossing them over with a steeper slope (24
dB). Then I will just get of the Coustic XM-3. I think that might be the
safest option.

Nick


--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1
Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For
Rear Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub

2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC
Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub

2006 Mustang GT Coupe
Alpine IVA-D310 DVD Head Unit, Alpine MRA-550 Digital 5.1 Amp, Boston
Acoustics Z-Series Speakers, Alpine SBS-05DC Center Channel Speaker,
Amplified MTX Thunderform Sub

[MOSFET]

"Jamie Pruden" wrote in message
news:2006071808193550073-null@bitbucketcom...
Hi Nick,

Sorry to hear about your tweets...

I just reread the owners manual on my new XR525s and they specifically say
to use the xover *even when biamping.*

Yes, I downloaded a copy of the owners manual and saw that as well. And
yes, I was concerned about it. I was wondering if there was some impedance
issue that by not using the X-over, the impedance might be really low and
draw more current. I'm not really an expert on these things but that did
get my attention as well. But then again, a tweeter is a tweeter, and I
would think there should be some way to adequately protect it without the JL
passive X-over. I think a higher and sharper sloped X-over will likely
solve this problem (or a much less powerful amp).

However, I am bidding on a number of JL VR speaker packages that include the
X-over and I may try using it if I get one that includes the X-over.
Ultimately, that may be the safest (and wisest) way of protecting those
tweeters. Thanks for the advice.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

Crap, I just thought of a flaw in this plan in using my Alpine in three-way
mode. I use a dash mounted EQ, the Clarion EQ-750, and I REALLY like that
thing. I use it ALL the time (for nearly every song). If I split the
signal at the Alpine, I will only be able to run either the midrange output
or the tweeter output through the EQ, I can't run both (right now, only the
sub output from the Alpine bypasses the EQ which is OK as the sub level
control is so easily accessed by the Alpine).

So I'm afraid I would have to give up my EQ if I were to go with this plan
(or jsut be able to control the midrange with it, which is kind of lame).

I think it's back to the drawing board and the answer msot likely lies in a
higher X-over frequency and a less powerful amp. I am now thinking of
getting rid of the Jensen altogether and using two of the channels of my
Prestige (40 watts X 4) to drive my tweets and the other two channels to
drive my rear-fill. That would also free up so badly needed space under my
seats as I currently have squeezed under the two front seats the following
items: RF Punch 225.2, Jensen XP42, Prestige PA-440, two 1/2 farad caps, one
1 farad cap, and the Coustic XM-3. Needless to say, some of this spills
over into the rear cabin floor (where people put their feet). It would be
nice to get rid of one of those amps. This is currently my number one plan
at the moment.

MOSFET

[Captain Howdy]

After all the **** you said about your great high end amp, then you pop your
tweeters. Dumb **** the jokes on you.




In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
.. .
Listen up swapshop dick, I mean nick. Life sucks when it's got you by the
balls. I don't laugh at other's problems, I laugh at you mr.SQ. I told you
to
get a JBL compression horn the last time around. Some people have to do
things
and learn things the hard way, and yeah it's funny as ****.

Oh yeah, it's a hoot. You're an idiot. Stop replying to my posts.

Nick

[Captain Howdy]

I guess you need read alot of the replies from people, The amount of power
that you have is not an issue. The problem is your ghetto-fab gear. Misfit
will you ever learn. ROFL




I think it's back to the drawing board and the answer msot likely lies in a
higher X-over frequency and a less powerful amp. I am now thinking of
getting rid of the Jensen altogether and using two of the channels of my
Prestige (40 watts X 4) to drive my tweets and the other two channels to
drive my rear-fill. That would also free up so badly needed space under my
seats as I currently have squeezed under the two front seats the following
items: RF Punch 225.2, Jensen XP42, Prestige PA-440, two 1/2 farad caps, one
1 farad cap, and the Coustic XM-3. Needless to say, some of this spills
over into the rear cabin floor (where people put their feet). It would be
nice to get rid of one of those amps. This is currently my number one plan
at the moment.

MOSFET

[RG]

Just remember that if a tweeters specs say it will take 60 watts of average
(aka RMS) power that does NOT mean a full 60 watts to the tweeters
themselves. What it means is that (in a passive setup) if your system is
outputting 60 watts then the tweeters voicecoil will withstand that power
level when crossed over properly. The midrange/tweeter system may be putting
out 60 watts as a whole but the tweeter will only get about 10% of this
output. Active crossovers do not protect tweeters especially if the xover
point and slope are not well thought out. If you somehow send the amp into
clipping you are generating roughly twice the RMS power the amp is rated at.
This will effectively kill any tweeter that does not have passive crossover
protection as they have very delicate voicecoils. Several ways to protect
tweeters when using an active xover:

- use an appropriate xover frequency and slope, and match the tweeter level
output properly
- avoid clipping the amp output for any extended length of time, OR

- put a thermal protection switch in series with the tweeter, i.e., a
polyswitch
- run a passive crossover between the amp and tweeters in addition to the
active crossover located upstream

I don't use any additional protection to my JL tweeters but I run them at
conventioal listening levels for the most part. I currently use a Sony
XEC-1000 crossover with the woofer low passed at 3500 hz and the tweeters
high passed at 5000 hz. I have never liked the sound that results when using
a symetrical crossover point in conjunction with a 12db slope. There is just
too much of a hump in the response around the xover point. If using a lower
symetrical setting I have always found a steeper slope, like a 24db Linkwitz
Reilly alignment, works best. Either way will afford a much more protective
"cushion" to the tweeters.

- RG


"MOSFET" wrote in message
m...

"Jamie Pruden" wrote in message
news:2006071808193550073-null@bitbucketcom...
Hi Nick,

Sorry to hear about your tweets...

I just reread the owners manual on my new XR525s and they specifically
say to use the xover *even when biamping.*

Yes, I downloaded a copy of the owners manual and saw that as well. And
yes, I was concerned about it. I was wondering if there was some
impedance issue that by not using the X-over, the impedance might be
really low and draw more current. I'm not really an expert on these
things but that did get my attention as well. But then again, a tweeter
is a tweeter, and I would think there should be some way to adequately
protect it without the JL passive X-over. I think a higher and sharper
sloped X-over will likely solve this problem (or a much less powerful
amp).

However, I am bidding on a number of JL VR speaker packages that include
the X-over and I may try using it if I get one that includes the X-over.
Ultimately, that may be the safest (and wisest) way of protecting those
tweeters. Thanks for the advice.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

I HAVE NEVER SAID MY GEAR WAS HIGH END OR GREAT OR ANYTHING YOU MORON!!!!
I'M PROUD OF MY SYSTEM BUT WHO HERE ISN'T, AND WHY IS THAT A CRIME? I NEVER
SAID I WAS ANY KIND OF EXPERT EITHER (IN FACT MANY TIMES I POINTED OUT THAT
I WAS NOT AN EXPERT WHEN IT CAME TO ELECTRICAL THEORY). WHAT THE **** HAVE
YOU BEEN SMOKING?

GO AND CHECK ALL MY PAST POSTS AND FIND WHERE I SAID MY GEAR WAS HIGH-END OR
AWESOME OR THAT I WAS ANY KIND OF EXPERT.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST SPEND YOUR TIME ONLY RESPONDING TO BOB'S POSTS IN THE
FUTURE BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY YOU SEEM TO SHARE MANY OF HIS DELUSIONS. YOU LIVE
IN HIS SAME FAIRY WORLD. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HELP ME, THEN SHUT THE ****
UP!!!!!!

YOU ARE JUST PLAIN A MEAN, SADISTIC **** WHO TAKES PLEASURE IN OTHER
PEOPLE'S PROBLEMS. I KNOW YOU DON'T CARE (PEOPLE LIKE YOU NEVER DO), BUT
THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE. I WOULD APPRECIATE IT IF YOU WOULD NOT RESPOND TO MY
POSTS.

MOSFET


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
After all the **** you said about your great high end amp, then you pop
your
tweeters. Dumb **** the jokes on you.




In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
. ..
Listen up swapshop dick, I mean nick. Life sucks when it's got you by
the
balls. I don't laugh at other's problems, I laugh at you mr.SQ. I told
you
to
get a JBL compression horn the last time around. Some people have to do
things
and learn things the hard way, and yeah it's funny as ****.

Oh yeah, it's a hoot. You're an idiot. Stop replying to my posts.

Nick

[MOSFET]

I guess you need read alot of the replies from people, The amount of power
that you have is not an issue. The problem is your ghetto-fab gear. Misfit
will you ever learn. ROFL

No one who has replied to this thread has said that, you moron. Again, you
demonstrate how ****ed up your brain is. Do you hear voices? Are there
black helicopters outside your window? Is the CIA tapping your phone?
Could be, huh?

Go have a long conversation with Bob. He is DEFINITELY on your level.

Nick

[MOSFET]

Just remember that if a tweeters specs say it will take 60 watts of
average (aka RMS) power that does NOT mean a full 60 watts to the tweeters
themselves. What it means is that (in a passive setup) if your system is
outputting 60 watts then the tweeters voicecoil will withstand that power
level when crossed over properly. The midrange/tweeter system may be
putting out 60 watts as a whole but the tweeter will only get about 10% of
this output.

Yes, but in the 2000 Car Stereo Review buyer's guide the VR tweeters are
sold separately and it says for the JL VR 075-CT tweeter: Power handling
50W; FR 4,000Hz-25,000Hz; sens 92dB; imp 4 ohms, price $130. So apparently,
this tweeter SHOULD be able to handle 50 watts by itself if properly
X-overed. Again, I think my X-over was not high enough and my amp may have
spiked (as was suggested by someone else) and put WAY more than 50 watts
into the tweeter. My new thinking is I want to eliminate the Jensen amp and
just drive the tweeters with 40 watts from my 4 channel Prestige PA-440 amp
(the other two channels will drive my rear-fill). Between less power and a
higher X-over point (like 4500Hz), I SHOULD be OK. Thanks again for the
feedback.

MOSFET

MOSFET

[RG]

I cant' imagine any tweeter ever seeing 50 watts RMS at 4000 hz or more. In
a playing system that would mean the mids would be seeing about 500 watts.
They always mean 50 watts BEFORE the crossover. Actual wattage to a tweeter
is usually between 5 and 10 watts after the signal filters through the
crossover. There just is not a lot of power/energy in high frequencies.
Anyway, I think you are on the right track if only by raising the crossover
point. But I would emphasize again NOT to trust the frequency calibrations
on your Coustic xover. Those variable pots are usually bogus as far as
tolerances, and the marked calibrations could be innaccurate, which could
further compound any errors. Anyway, good luck.

- RG

"MOSFET" wrote in message
...
Just remember that if a tweeters specs say it will take 60 watts of
average (aka RMS) power that does NOT mean a full 60 watts to the
tweeters themselves. What it means is that (in a passive setup) if your
system is outputting 60 watts then the tweeters voicecoil will withstand
that power level when crossed over properly. The midrange/tweeter system
may be putting out 60 watts as a whole but the tweeter will only get
about 10% of this output.

Yes, but in the 2000 Car Stereo Review buyer's guide the VR tweeters are
sold separately and it says for the JL VR 075-CT tweeter: Power handling
50W; FR 4,000Hz-25,000Hz; sens 92dB; imp 4 ohms, price $130. So
apparently, this tweeter SHOULD be able to handle 50 watts by itself if
properly X-overed. Again, I think my X-over was not high enough and my
amp may have spiked (as was suggested by someone else) and put WAY more
than 50 watts into the tweeter. My new thinking is I want to eliminate
the Jensen amp and just drive the tweeters with 40 watts from my 4 channel
Prestige PA-440 amp (the other two channels will drive my rear-fill).
Between less power and a higher X-over point (like 4500Hz), I SHOULD be
OK. Thanks again for the feedback.

MOSFET

MOSFET

[Chad Wahls]

MOSFET wrote:
Crap, I just thought of a flaw in this plan in using my Alpine in three-way
mode. I use a dash mounted EQ, the Clarion EQ-750, and I REALLY like that
thing. I use it ALL the time (for nearly every song). If I split the
signal at the Alpine, I will only be able to run either the midrange output
or the tweeter output through the EQ, I can't run both (right now, only the
sub output from the Alpine bypasses the EQ which is OK as the sub level
control is so easily accessed by the Alpine).

So I'm afraid I would have to give up my EQ if I were to go with this plan
(or jsut be able to control the midrange with it, which is kind of lame).

I think it's back to the drawing board and the answer msot likely lies in a
higher X-over frequency and a less powerful amp. I am now thinking of
getting rid of the Jensen altogether and using two of the channels of my
Prestige (40 watts X 4) to drive my tweets and the other two channels to
drive my rear-fill. That would also free up so badly needed space under my
seats as I currently have squeezed under the two front seats the following
items: RF Punch 225.2, Jensen XP42, Prestige PA-440, two 1/2 farad caps, one
1 farad cap, and the Coustic XM-3. Needless to say, some of this spills
over into the rear cabin floor (where people put their feet). It would be
nice to get rid of one of those amps. This is currently my number one plan
at the moment.

MOSFET

Damn, i forgot about the EQ Sorry.

I have a 9855 running 3 way. I have a select few presets for
parametric EQ, I find that after careful tuning that I rarely have the
urge to change it. I will adjust the sub level from time to time
depending on the source or select CD. In fact I have like 2 summer
presets and 2 winter presets.

This also comes from my background of professional audio. I have not
touched a single XO or EQ knob on my monitoring rig in over 2 years, I
make my living on consistency I guess that's just how I'm used to doing
it.

Check out the new Seas Neo tweets, they are getting great SQ reviews
and will play down to 2K with proper slopes, I'd bump it up to 3K with
12dB/Oct for safety sake. I run Morel MDT12's at between 2 and 2.5K
with a 24dB/Oct slope with no problems. They are capable of receiving
70W/Ch from a Next VRz5.500 but never really come close to seeing that
even at ear-bleeding levels.

I honestly think that if you raise the tweets up in custom pods and
spend some time with tuning and TA then you won't miss the EQ. Time
Alligning the WHOLE front stage while placing the drivers where the
work the best will do WAY more than the rear fills! Trust me

Did you get my damn e-mail?

Chad

[Captain Howdy]

There you go ass hat.

In article , John Durbin
wrote:

bah... get better tweeters or a better crossover. I have been running a
pair of a/d/s/ cs tweeters (from the 346cs system) with my XES system,
using a freaking PCX-280 for power just on the tweeters. Now, the slope
is MUCH steeper (36 or 72 dB/octave, I forget which but something silly
high like that) but I am using way more power than you were (the 280 is
good for well over 100 WPC driving a 4 ohm load) and I have played with
crossover points between 2.5kHz and up into the high 3kHz range with
zero damage. I think I settled on something around 2.8kHz for normal use.


In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
I guess you need read alot of the replies from people, The amount of power
that you have is not an issue. The problem is your ghetto-fab gear. Misfit
will you ever learn. ROFL

No one who has replied to this thread has said that, you moron. Again, you
demonstrate how ****ed up your brain is. Do you hear voices? Are there
black helicopters outside your window? Is the CIA tapping your phone?
Could be, huh?

Go have a long conversation with Bob. He is DEFINITELY on your level.

Nick

[Captain Howdy]

Oh and **** you again.

In article 2006071808193550073-null@bitbucketcom, Jamie Pruden
wrote:
Hi Nick,

Sorry to hear about your tweets...

I just reread the owners manual on my new XR525s and they specifically
say to use the xover *even when biamping.*

When the Godfather (http://www.theautophile.com) used to post up here,
he often mentioned putting a cap on Dynaudio tweeters when biamping.
Not for xover purposes... mostly to avoid DC offset on the amplifier.
Maybe this is what bit you... less expensive amps tend to have more DC
offset and this can cause problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_offset

http://tangentsoft.net/audio/input-cap.html

I'd rather have too much power than not enough...

smiles,
Jamie



In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
I guess you need read alot of the replies from people, The amount of power
that you have is not an issue. The problem is your ghetto-fab gear. Misfit
will you ever learn. ROFL

No one who has replied to this thread has said that, you moron. Again, you
demonstrate how ****ed up your brain is. Do you hear voices? Are there
black helicopters outside your window? Is the CIA tapping your phone?
Could be, huh?

Go have a long conversation with Bob. He is DEFINITELY on your level.

Nick