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#1
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Microphones
Hi.
I'm a newbie here, and a couple of days ago I've posted some questions for an essay I'm doing. During the research for that some essay I came across some doubts about microphones and the different types of microphones, and would like to have your oppinion in some pratical questions. What kind of microphones (type, brand, model) and position of the microphone would you recommend for the following situations: an indoor rock concert, an indoor classical orchestra concert, an interview for five persons in a closed room at a radio station and an outdoor interview to a single person? Are there any particular reasons for each of your recommendations? Thank you for your help and I'm sorry for bothering, I just think it's useful and educative to collect different opions from professinals and people working in this area. Once again, thank you |
#2
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Microphones
"Kat" wrote ...
What kind of microphones (type, brand, model) and position of the microphone would you recommend for the following situations: Does "situation" mean recording, or reinforcement, or both? an indoor rock concert, Do you mean recording an intact, live event? (As a "taper" or videographer?) Or do you mean capturing a live event multi-track for mixdown and release? Or do you mean as the reinforcement provider? (Where you are providing ALL the mics for the PA system/monitor) an indoor classical orchestra concert, Depends on the size of the group, the size/acoustics of the room, whether an audience is present, and even the kind of music, solo instruments, etc. an interview for five persons in a closed room at a radio station A cardioid microphone on an articulated boom for each participant. (Assuming they are sitting around a table in a typical talk-show-equippped studio.) and an outdoor interview to a single person? A "drive-by" conversation on the street? A sit-down interview? Radio?, TV? Obvious? Clandestine? Are there any particular reasons for each of your recommendations? More than you can imagine. Most of your questions are way too broad (undefined) to elicit legitimate answers, IMHO. In most cases, at least for me, they bring up more questions than answers. Competent audio professionals take dozens of factors into consideration when making these kinds of mic selection and placement decisions. Not the least of which is the budget and the resources available (either in the equipment cache, or available by rental, etc.) Thank you for your help and I'm sorry for bothering, I just think it's useful and educative to collect different opions from professinals and people working in this area. Mic selection and placement are evergreen topics of conversation here. You can look at the archives for any month you like and find at least a few conversations about these topics. |
#3
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Microphones
What kind of microphones (type, brand, model) and position of the microphone would you recommend for the following situationsoes "situation" mean recording, or reinforcement, or both? an indoor rock concert,Do you mean recording an intact, live event? (As a "taper" or videographer?) Or do you mean capturing a live event multi-track for mixdown and release? Or do you mean as the reinforcement provider? (Where you are providing ALL the mics for the PA system/monitor) I mean using microphones to record and reinforce. an indoor classical orchestra concert,Depends on the size of the group, the size/acoustics of the room, whether an audience is present, and even the kind of music, solo instruments, etc. Medium size room, with audience, and with a "typical orchestra", violins, cello, flute, violoncells, etc. and an outdoor interview to a single person?A "drive-by" conversation on the street? A sit-down interview? Radio?, TV? Obvious? Clandestine? A "drive-by" interview on the street for TV. Thank you so much for your help |
#4
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Microphones
"Kat" wrote ...
an indoor rock concert, I mean using microphones to record and reinforce. This is still an impossibly broad question. Depends on the exact instrumentation, vocals, type of music, preferences of musicians and/or producers, etc. etc. etc. Might even depend on promotional contracts with vendors (like athletes and shoes, etc. :-) an indoor classical orchestra concert, Medium size room, with audience, and with a "typical orchestra", violins, cello, flute, violoncells, etc. There have been several discussions of this here recently. Highly recommend consulting the Google Groups Archives to review the discussions. When done "properly" (IMHO), this is well over the boundary from "science" into "art". Almost as profitable to ask an artist which brushes and paint they prefer. There are also online resources such as: http://www.josephson.com/mictech.html etc. A "drive-by" interview on the street for TV. Here (and in the the film-sound newsgroup news:rec.arts.movies.production.sound ) ONE of the favorite hand-held mics is the EV 635 or the double- isolated version, the RE-50. There are ~equivalents from other manufacturers, but I don't have the makes/ models committed to memory. I stick with my 635. |
#5
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Microphones
Kat wrote:
I'm a newbie here, and a couple of days ago I've posted some questions for an essay I'm doing. During the research for that some essay I came across some doubts about microphones and the different types of microphones, and would like to have your oppinion in some pratical questions. Go, right now, and buy the book "Microphones" published by Focal Press. Also Shure makes a little brochure on spot miking techniques, which they might have on their website. www.josephson.com has a tutorial on stereophony somewhere. These would be good starting points to help you be able to ask the right questions. What kind of microphones (type, brand, model) and position of the microphone would you recommend for the following situations: an indoor rock concert, Last week I recorded a punk group in a small club. AKG 431 on vocals, B&K omnis on the room, and I think I threw an EV RE-20 on the kick drum. What I'd pick for a more pop band is totally different. Most people would spot more than I do. an indoor classical orchestra concert, Last night I recorded a small orchestra with a pair of Josephson 606 cardioids in ORTF. It was right for the group and the room. In a different room with a different group I might pick something different. an interview for five persons in a closed room at a radio station Probably RE-20s on everyone. You want maximum intellibility and lowest leakage. I might cluster them in groups of two or three around each mike. Mix to mono, of course. and an outdoor interview to a single person? EV 635A. It's an omni so you don't have to stay on-mike, and so it's not sensitive to wind. It has no low end, so not much rumble leaks into it. It's cheap and rugged. Are there any particular reasons for each of your recommendations? Yes. Thank you for your help and I'm sorry for bothering, I just think it's useful and educative to collect different opions from professinals and people working in this area. Out of curiosity, why are you doing this, and do you work for a marketing firm? --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#6
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Microphones
Kat wrote:
I mean using microphones to record and reinforce. These are totally different jobs, though. Usually when I am recording a concert that also has sound reinforcement, I'll wind up using a lot of my own microphones sitting right next to the PA guy's microphones, because what I want out of the mike feed is different than what he does. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#7
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Microphones
Kat wrote: Thank you for your help and I'm sorry for bothering, I just think it's useful and educative to collect different opions from professinals and people working in this area. Term papers cheerfully written at a dollar a word. This is an impossibly broad question. I'd suggest that you narrow down your topic to something like "to record an orchestra in a reasonable concert hall" or "for sound reinforcement of guitarist/singer at an open stage" and then try again. |
#8
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Microphones
Kat wrote:
Hi. I'm a newbie here, and a couple of days ago I've posted some questions for an essay I'm doing. During the research for that some essay I came across some doubts about microphones and the different types of microphones, and would like to have your oppinion in some pratical questions. Doubts about types of microphones? If you are researching as essay, without any practical experience to draw on but only the opinions of others, you need to make clear attributions to your sources. Besides books and the opinions of working engineers, I would suggest the Application guides and tutorials put out by manufacturers like Crown, and www . dpamicrophones . com has it's "Microphone university" and applications guides online. There are different ways to approach doing the same thing, but the principles are similar. If you want to reject noise you need a narrower mic pattern, if you want to capture the nuances of a great sounding space you can use wider patterns. Or not. What kind of microphones (type, brand, model) and position of the microphone would you recommend for the following situations: an indoor rock concert, an indoor classical orchestra concert, an interview for five persons in a closed room at a radio station and an outdoor interview to a single person? Are there any particular reasons for each of your recommendations? Thank you for your help and I'm sorry for bothering, I just think it's useful and educative to collect different opions from professinals and people working in this area. Rock Concert live sound, Classical concert recording, TV/Radio studio work and ENG location recording, these are actually 4 different areas of expertise and require different skill sets. And unless you come up with a clearer focal point, an essay about what brand and model of mic people put where, without the "why" and principles of it all is going to be pretty boring reading. Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#9
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Microphones
Along with the other books you go buy, dig up a copy of Alec Nisbett's "The
Technique of the Sound Studio". Peace, Paul |
#10
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Microphones
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Kat wrote: I'm a newbie here, and a couple of days ago I've posted some questions for an essay I'm doing. During the research for that some essay I came across some doubts about microphones and the different types of microphones, and would like to have your oppinion in some pratical questions. Go, right now, and buy the book "Microphones" published by Focal Press. I'm looking to purchase this one myself. The only one I can find by Focal Press that sounds relatively close is "The Microphone Book", by John Eargle. Is that it? |
#11
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Microphones
Scott Smith wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Kat wrote: I'm a newbie here, and a couple of days ago I've posted some questions for an essay I'm doing. During the research for that some essay I came across some doubts about microphones and the different types of microphones, and would like to have your oppinion in some pratical questions. Go, right now, and buy the book "Microphones" published by Focal Press. I'm looking to purchase this one myself. The only one I can find by Focal Press that sounds relatively close is "The Microphone Book", by John Eargle. Is that it? I don't think so. The one I am thinking of was an old BBC handbook that they reprinted. It's heavy on ambient miking and miking for acoustic music. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#12
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Microphones
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
... Go, right now, and buy the book "Microphones" published by Focal Press. I'm looking to purchase this one myself. The only one I can find by Focal Press that sounds relatively close is "The Microphone Book", by John Eargle. Is that it? I don't think so. The one I am thinking of was an old BBC handbook that they reprinted. It's heavy on ambient miking and miking for acoustic music. You sure you're not thinking of Nisbett? He was a bigwig at the BBC, and "heavy on ambient miking and miking for acoustic music" is a perfect description of "Technique of the Sound Studio". Peace, Paul |
#13
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Microphones
Scott Dorsey wrote: I don't think so. The one I am thinking of was an old BBC handbook that they reprinted. It's heavy on ambient miking and miking for acoustic music. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick, 1990. Amazon.com has used copies from $100, or £80 from amazon.co.uk Borwick also contributes a chapter on microphones to Sound Recording Practice (which is available new in it's 1996 edition), but the chapter only runs to 15 pages, so I'd guess it's an extremely condensed overview of the book dedicated to microphones. Since I last looked, it appears that Geoff Martin has made the whole of his book "Introduction to Sound Recording" available to read online, but also still available to buy in PDF format for CA $40, with $15 of that going to the Canadian Cancer Society. The book runs to somewhere around 900 pages, is thorough and very readable. It is however far more aimed at 'how it works' than 'how to do it' - it's not a book full of technique, but there is a lot of discussion of different stereo mic configurations, and a fair chunk about surround mic arrays. But I'll not blab on about it since you can see for yourself: www.tonmeister.ca -Nick |
#14
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Microphones
Nick Brown wrote:
I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick, 1990. Bingo! Amazon.com has used copies from $100, or =A380 from amazon.co.uk That's insane. I mean, it's a good book, but not a $100 book. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#15
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Microphones
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Scott Smith wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Kat wrote: I'm a newbie here, and a couple of days ago I've posted some questions for an essay I'm doing. During the research for that some essay I came across some doubts about microphones and the different types of microphones, and would like to have your oppinion in some pratical questions. Go, right now, and buy the book "Microphones" published by Focal Press. I'm looking to purchase this one myself. The only one I can find by Focal Press that sounds relatively close is "The Microphone Book", by John Eargle. Is that it? I don't think so. The one I am thinking of was an old BBC handbook that they reprinted. It's heavy on ambient miking and miking for acoustic music. Sounds like "The Technique of the Sound Studio" by Alec Nisbett (Focal Press). There were many editions of this and the earlier ones concentrated more on the basics. There is also "Microphones" by A.E.Robertson (Iliffe). It is another BBC training manual but is mainly concerned with the acoustic design of microphones and is very heavy going. -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
#16
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Microphones
Nick Brown wrote: I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick, 1990. Borwick also contributes a chapter on microphones to Sound Recording Practice (which is available new in it's 1996 edition), but the chapter only runs to 15 pages, so I'd guess it's an extremely condensed overview of the book dedicated to microphones. I suppose if you're looking for source material for a school paper, a book is OK, but learning how to use microphones from a book is kind of learning how to have sex from a book. You can learn what the parts are called, but you don't actually know if you're doing it right until you do it. |
#17
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Microphones
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message oups.com... Nick Brown wrote: I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick, 1990. Borwick also contributes a chapter on microphones to Sound Recording Practice (which is available new in it's 1996 edition), but the chapter only runs to 15 pages, so I'd guess it's an extremely condensed overview of the book dedicated to microphones. I suppose if you're looking for source material for a school paper, a book is OK, but learning how to use microphones from a book is kind of learning how to have sex from a book. You can learn what the parts are called, but you don't actually know if you're doing it right until you do it. While I agree, there's something to be said for not trying to reinvent the wheel, you know? |
#18
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Microphones
"Scott Smith" wrote in message . .. "Mike Rivers" wrote in message oups.com... Nick Brown wrote: I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick, 1990. Borwick also contributes a chapter on microphones to Sound Recording Practice (which is available new in it's 1996 edition), but the chapter only runs to 15 pages, so I'd guess it's an extremely condensed overview of the book dedicated to microphones. I suppose if you're looking for source material for a school paper, a book is OK, but learning how to use microphones from a book is kind of learning how to have sex from a book. You can learn what the parts are called, but you don't actually know if you're doing it right until you do it. While I agree, there's something to be said for not trying to reinvent the wheel, you know? But it is equally true that it is at least as much an art as a science and all the books in the world won't get you there without some actual field/studio hands-on experimentation. |
#19
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Microphones
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "Scott Smith" wrote in message . .. "Mike Rivers" wrote in message oups.com... Nick Brown wrote: I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick, 1990. Borwick also contributes a chapter on microphones to Sound Recording Practice (which is available new in it's 1996 edition), but the chapter only runs to 15 pages, so I'd guess it's an extremely condensed overview of the book dedicated to microphones. I suppose if you're looking for source material for a school paper, a book is OK, but learning how to use microphones from a book is kind of learning how to have sex from a book. You can learn what the parts are called, but you don't actually know if you're doing it right until you do it. While I agree, there's something to be said for not trying to reinvent the wheel, you know? But it is equally true that it is at least as much an art as a science and all the books in the world won't get you there without some actual field/studio hands-on experimentation. Sure, I wouldn't disagree. In addition, I think a person can potentially accelerate the learning process by supplementing personal experience with study under those who're already achieving the results they're after, thereby providing key distinctions that might normally take much longer to acquire on ones own. I consider it an adjunct, not a substitute for hands-on experience. |
#20
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Microphones
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:10:49 -0500, Scott Smith wrote
(in article ): "Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "Scott Smith" wrote in message . .. "Mike Rivers" wrote in message oups.com... Nick Brown wrote: I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick, 1990. Borwick also contributes a chapter on microphones to Sound Recording Practice (which is available new in it's 1996 edition), but the chapter only runs to 15 pages, so I'd guess it's an extremely condensed overview of the book dedicated to microphones. I suppose if you're looking for source material for a school paper, a book is OK, but learning how to use microphones from a book is kind of learning how to have sex from a book. You can learn what the parts are called, but you don't actually know if you're doing it right until you do it. While I agree, there's something to be said for not trying to reinvent the wheel, you know? But it is equally true that it is at least as much an art as a science and all the books in the world won't get you there without some actual field/studio hands-on experimentation. Sure, I wouldn't disagree. In addition, I think a person can potentially accelerate the learning process by supplementing personal experience with study under those who're already achieving the results they're after, thereby providing key distinctions that might normally take much longer to acquire on ones own. I consider it an adjunct, not a substitute for hands-on experience. There is also the phenomenon of what's going on inside one's head. Hard to explain. What sense one can make out of what one hears. Learning is a cumulative process. I hear things in recordings now that I'm sure I wouldn't have heard ten years ago. In the late 1960s I was asked to play 12 string on a cut from an acoustic blues LP. I was VERY honored and we had a great time. I played the vinyl many many times re-enjoying it each time. I finally put it away and re-discovered it years later. When I listened again, I heard that the three mics had some pretty nasty phasing interaction that I had never been able to hear before. What's the line? "When the student is ready, the teacher appears." Maybe we should try to figure out how to be "ready" more often. Regards, Ty Ford -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
#21
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Microphones
"Ty Ford" wrote in message . .. On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:10:49 -0500, Scott Smith wrote (in article ): "Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "Scott Smith" wrote in message . .. "Mike Rivers" wrote in message oups.com... Nick Brown wrote: I'd guess it's "Microphones, Technology and Technique", John Borwick, 1990. Borwick also contributes a chapter on microphones to Sound Recording Practice (which is available new in it's 1996 edition), but the chapter only runs to 15 pages, so I'd guess it's an extremely condensed overview of the book dedicated to microphones. I suppose if you're looking for source material for a school paper, a book is OK, but learning how to use microphones from a book is kind of learning how to have sex from a book. You can learn what the parts are called, but you don't actually know if you're doing it right until you do it. While I agree, there's something to be said for not trying to reinvent the wheel, you know? But it is equally true that it is at least as much an art as a science and all the books in the world won't get you there without some actual field/studio hands-on experimentation. Sure, I wouldn't disagree. In addition, I think a person can potentially accelerate the learning process by supplementing personal experience with study under those who're already achieving the results they're after, thereby providing key distinctions that might normally take much longer to acquire on ones own. I consider it an adjunct, not a substitute for hands-on experience. There is also the phenomenon of what's going on inside one's head. Hard to explain. What sense one can make out of what one hears. Learning is a cumulative process. I hear things in recordings now that I'm sure I wouldn't have heard ten years ago. In the late 1960s I was asked to play 12 string on a cut from an acoustic blues LP. I was VERY honored and we had a great time. I played the vinyl many many times re-enjoying it each time. I finally put it away and re-discovered it years later. When I listened again, I heard that the three mics had some pretty nasty phasing interaction that I had never been able to hear before. What's the line? "When the student is ready, the teacher appears." Maybe we should try to figure out how to be "ready" more often. I agree. I also think this may be partially related to obscured objectivity in some capacity, perhaps. In my experience, it isn't until we sometimes distance ourselves from a project that we gain clearer insight. |
#22
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Microphones
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#23
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Microphones
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#24
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Microphones
wrote:
lid (Adrian Tuddenham) writes: There is also "Microphones" by A.E.Robertson (Iliffe). It is another BBC training manual but is mainly concerned with the acoustic design of microphones and is very heavy going. The copy I have does not have an author: "By the Staff of the Engineering Training Department BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION" 1951, 114pp It does also have the Iliffe link, and interesting, `Published for "Wireless World"' The Robertson book has 357 pages, it is quite a large tome. I think yours must be a different publication altogether. There is also a BBC 'Technical Instruction" S2 called "Microphones"; but that is a folder with sections for individual makes of microphone, containing data sheets and comments. As it was intended to be updated from time to time, the number of pages is not fixed. -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
#26
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Microphones
wrote:
lid (Adrian Tuddenham) writes: wrote: lid (Adrian Tuddenham) writes: There is also "Microphones" by A.E.Robertson (Iliffe). It is another BBC training manual but is mainly concerned with the acoustic design of microphones and is very heavy going. The copy I have does not have an author: "By the Staff of the Engineering Training Department BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION" 1951, 114pp It does also have the Iliffe link, and interesting, `Published for "Wireless World"' The Robertson book has 357 pages, it is quite a large tome. I think yours must be a different publication altogether. What is the date on that? I wonder if it was done to replace the 51 version. "First published 1951 by arrangement with the BBC" Mine is the Second Edition from 1963, so you are almost certainly right. -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
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