Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

TIA

wrote:
Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

It's basically cheap MI store junk, and about typical for that grade of
gear. The equalizer is probably usable. It can't be any worse than
the Alesis.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

wrote:

Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

The received wisdom about Phonic is that it's cheap junk and best
avoided. That's not just a 'knee jerk' reaction about all Chinese
stuff btw.


Graham

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

It's basically cheap MI store junk, and about typical for that grade of
gear. The equalizer is probably usable. It can't be any worse than
the Alesis.
--scott

How is the Alesis bad?

I've read some reviews on the pro sound mag websites that were positive.
I know their stuff is not top of the line as is Rane but what specific
problems are noted.
How about dbx EQ's?

wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

It's basically cheap MI store junk, and about typical for that grade of
gear. The equalizer is probably usable. It can't be any worse than
the Alesis.

How is the Alesis bad?

The MEQ-230? It basically doesn't work at all. The interaction between
bands is terrible... you add a peak at 8 KHz and you get a dip at 4 KHz
that comes along with it. This makes it basically unusable for any of
the things you want graphic equalizers for. You fight with it for a little
while and soon discover it works best when bypassed. I have never used
anything so awful before.

I've read some reviews on the pro sound mag websites that were positive.
I know their stuff is not top of the line as is Rane but what specific
problems are noted.

Rane is by no means top of the line, although Rane does make a parametric
EQ that works if you don't push it too hard. I have never used any of
the Rane graphics.

How about dbx EQ's?

dbx makes (or made... given the flux in the whole empire over there it's
hard to tell) several different ranges of equalizers. They make some fairly
clean stuff, and they make some MI store crap, and they also make stuff
in-between. They make some stuff designed specifically for the installed
sound market which have narrower bands in the vocal region than outside.
I think they might still even make a cut-only EQ. And for a long time
they made an excellent parametric (which was a Bob Orban legacy, I think).
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:10:50 GMT, wrote:

Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

TIA

The only Phonic product I ever bought was a rack-mount power bar. It
had ground and neutral swapped. It had NO UL or CSA approval label, so
it wasn't even legal for sale in Canada. I returned it to the dealer
with a few words about safety. The dealer checked another Phonic power
bar, and it had the same problem. I think they returned all the power
bars to the distributor. They still carry mixers and other doo-dads
from Phonic.

I see no reason to buy anything from a company that cares so little
about quality of their product or safety of their customers.

Mike T.

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

It's basically cheap MI store junk, and about typical for that grade of
gear. The equalizer is probably usable. It can't be any worse than
the Alesis.

How is the Alesis bad?

The MEQ-230? It basically doesn't work at all. The interaction between
bands is terrible... you add a peak at 8 KHz and you get a dip at 4 KHz
that comes along with it. This makes it basically unusable for any of
the things you want graphic equalizers for. You fight with it for a
little
while and soon discover it works best when bypassed. I have never used
anything so awful before.

I've read some reviews on the pro sound mag websites that were positive.
I know their stuff is not top of the line as is Rane but what specific
problems are noted.

Rane is by no means top of the line, although Rane does make a parametric
EQ that works if you don't push it too hard. I have never used any of
the Rane graphics.

How about dbx EQ's?

dbx makes (or made... given the flux in the whole empire over there it's
hard to tell) several different ranges of equalizers. They make some
fairly
clean stuff, and they make some MI store crap, and they also make stuff
in-between. They make some stuff designed specifically for the installed
sound market which have narrower bands in the vocal region than outside.
I think they might still even make a cut-only EQ. And for a long time
they made an excellent parametric (which was a Bob Orban legacy, I think).
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

It's basically cheap MI store junk, and about typical for that grade of
gear. The equalizer is probably usable. It can't be any worse than
the Alesis.

How is the Alesis bad?

The MEQ-230? It basically doesn't work at all. The interaction between
bands is terrible... you add a peak at 8 KHz and you get a dip at 4 KHz
that comes along with it. This makes it basically unusable for any of
the things you want graphic equalizers for. You fight with it for a
little
while and soon discover it works best when bypassed. I have never used
anything so awful before.


Did you ever have it checked? That seems like something a warranty repair
would have covered.



I've read some reviews on the pro sound mag websites that were positive.
I know their stuff is not top of the line as is Rane but what specific
problems are noted.

Rane is by no means top of the line, although Rane does make a parametric
EQ that works if you don't push it too hard.

OK not top of the line but as EQ's go their stuff gets generally high marks
and seems to made well. I know there are more expensive unit such as Klark
Teknik, I just don't know that they will accomplish the task of EQ any
better.

I'm not planning to use whatever EQ I wind up with anywhere other than home
and it will not be moved.

I have never used any of
the Rane graphics.

How about dbx EQ's?

dbx makes (or made... given the flux in the whole empire over there it's
hard to tell) several different ranges of equalizers. They make some
fairly
clean stuff, and they make some MI store crap, and they also make stuff
in-between. They make some stuff designed specifically for the installed
sound market which have narrower bands in the vocal region than outside.
I think they might still even make a cut-only EQ. And for a long time
they made an excellent parametric (which was a Bob Orban legacy, I think).
--scott

I'm looking for something inexpensive that will suffice for a fixed location
and smooth out a smallish room, probably mostly for cutting some peaks
particularly one at 50 Hz.

Would it be a safe assumption that you're not a big fan of Behringer
specifically the FBQ 6200?

"Mike T." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:10:50 GMT, wrote:

Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

TIA

The only Phonic product I ever bought was a rack-mount power bar. It
had ground and neutral swapped. It had NO UL or CSA approval label, so
it wasn't even legal for sale in Canada. I returned it to the dealer
with a few words about safety. The dealer checked another Phonic power
bar, and it had the same problem. I think they returned all the power
bars to the distributor. They still carry mixers and other doo-dads
from Phonic.

I see no reason to buy anything from a company that cares so little
about quality of their product or safety of their customers.

Any recomendations for EQ in the under $300.00 range?

wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

It's basically cheap MI store junk, and about typical for that grade of
gear. The equalizer is probably usable. It can't be any worse than
the Alesis.

How is the Alesis bad?

The MEQ-230? It basically doesn't work at all. The interaction between
bands is terrible... you add a peak at 8 KHz and you get a dip at 4 KHz
that comes along with it. This makes it basically unusable for any of
the things you want graphic equalizers for. You fight with it for a
little
while and soon discover it works best when bypassed. I have never used
anything so awful before.


Did you ever have it checked? That seems like something a warranty repair
would have covered.

No, they're all like that. It's a design issue.

I've read some reviews on the pro sound mag websites that were positive.
I know their stuff is not top of the line as is Rane but what specific
problems are noted.

Rane is by no means top of the line, although Rane does make a parametric
EQ that works if you don't push it too hard.

OK not top of the line but as EQ's go their stuff gets generally high marks
and seems to made well. I know there are more expensive unit such as Klark
Teknik, I just don't know that they will accomplish the task of EQ any
better.

Yes, very much so.

I'm not planning to use whatever EQ I wind up with anywhere other than home
and it will not be moved.

Why do you want to use an equalizer at home?

I'm looking for something inexpensive that will suffice for a fixed location
and smooth out a smallish room, probably mostly for cutting some peaks
particularly one at 50 Hz.

Would it be a safe assumption that you're not a big fan of Behringer
specifically the FBQ 6200?

I've never used the Behringer. But if you have room problems at 50 Hz,
I think you'll find that equalization doesn't help you. If you have a
peak at one point in the room, you have a dip at the same frequency
somewhere else in the room. Equalizing out the peak will make the dip
worse.

Frequency domain solutions like equalization don't solve time-domain
problems like standing waves in rooms.

If, on the other hand, you have a peak at 50 Hz that is due to the
speakers, then equalization might help. In this case, you might want
to look an inexpensive parametric like the Rane or Ashly units. A
graphic equalizer usually does more harm than good because the actual
problems never seem to be on third-octave centers or are a third-octave
wide. The parametric gives you more flexibility for center frequency
and width, at the expense of some ease of use.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article . net,
says...

"Mike T." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:10:50 GMT, wrote:

Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

TIA

The only Phonic product I ever bought was a rack-mount power bar. It
had ground and neutral swapped. It had NO UL or CSA approval label, so
it wasn't even legal for sale in Canada. I returned it to the dealer
with a few words about safety. The dealer checked another Phonic power
bar, and it had the same problem. I think they returned all the power
bars to the distributor. They still carry mixers and other doo-dads
from Phonic.

I see no reason to buy anything from a company that cares so little
about quality of their product or safety of their customers.

Any recomendations for EQ in the under $300.00 range?

As others have mentioned, if this is a room problem, EQ will
only suffice in one listening location. It will make anywhere
else in the room worse, and may degrade the sound quality all
by itself. Look into what diffusion can do for you first; things
like bookshelves, chairs, couches, hanging objects, etc., may
solve your problem without adding any potentially disastrous EQ.
Walk around the room, listening closely at as many locations as
you can, to see where the nodes may be occurring. Don't forget
the upper portion of the room, either. Many people try to treat
a room from where they can reach on downward (because it's a
human trait to think in two dimensions), then they leave the
upper half of the room square and ringing like a banshee...
My advice is that you listen to Mike and Scott whenever *they*
give advice; I have learned a great many things from those two
(as well as others; I was here when Gabe ruled this bandwidth)
over the years. I used to try to solve things with EQ a lot,
then I startted actually *listening*, and found out some very
interesting things about acoustic waves that I should have
remembered all along from my school daze...
--
---Mikhael...

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

It's basically cheap MI store junk, and about typical for that grade
of
gear. The equalizer is probably usable. It can't be any worse than
the Alesis.

How is the Alesis bad?

The MEQ-230? It basically doesn't work at all. The interaction between
bands is terrible... you add a peak at 8 KHz and you get a dip at 4 KHz
that comes along with it. This makes it basically unusable for any of
the things you want graphic equalizers for. You fight with it for a
little
while and soon discover it works best when bypassed. I have never used
anything so awful before.


Did you ever have it checked? That seems like something a warranty repair
would have covered.

No, they're all like that. It's a design issue.

I've read some reviews on the pro sound mag websites that were positive.
I know their stuff is not top of the line as is Rane but what specific
problems are noted.

Rane is by no means top of the line, although Rane does make a
parametric
EQ that works if you don't push it too hard.

OK not top of the line but as EQ's go their stuff gets generally high
marks
and seems to made well. I know there are more expensive unit such as
Klark
Teknik, I just don't know that they will accomplish the task of EQ any
better.

Yes, very much so.

I'm not planning to use whatever EQ I wind up with anywhere other than
home
and it will not be moved.

Why do you want to use an equalizer at home?


To flatten out the room response.

I'm looking for something inexpensive that will suffice for a fixed
location
and smooth out a smallish room, probably mostly for cutting some peaks
particularly one at 50 Hz.

Would it be a safe assumption that you're not a big fan of Behringer
specifically the FBQ 6200?

I've never used the Behringer. But if you have room problems at 50 Hz,
I think you'll find that equalization doesn't help you. If you have a
peak at one point in the room, you have a dip at the same frequency
somewhere else in the room. Equalizing out the peak will make the dip
worse.

Frequency domain solutions like equalization don't solve time-domain
problems like standing waves in rooms.

If, on the other hand, you have a peak at 50 Hz that is due to the
speakers, then equalization might help. In this case, you might want
to look an inexpensive parametric like the Rane or Ashly units. A
graphic equalizer usually does more harm than good because the actual
problems never seem to be on third-octave centers or are a third-octave
wide.

That's never been my experience, I've sued them before and even if you don't
hit every exact point that's a problem, it still leaves things sounding
better than without any EQ at all IME.



The parametric gives you more flexibility for center frequency
and width, at the expense of some ease of use.
--scott

--
I'll consider it, I guess I need to run some test ones and see what the most
severe problems are and see if a parametric will help, although there is a
Behringer model I did not mention that has both graphic and parametric as
well as auto EQ features, the model DEQ 2496 which you can see he
http://www.djmart.com/behringerdeq2496.html

You can read a review of it he
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...acurve2496.htm

Or check out several other unit reviews he
http://search.ecoustics.com/Editoria...ews/Equalizer/

"Mick" wrote in message
...
In article . net,
says...

"Mike T." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:10:50 GMT, wrote:

Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

TIA

The only Phonic product I ever bought was a rack-mount power bar. It
had ground and neutral swapped. It had NO UL or CSA approval label, so
it wasn't even legal for sale in Canada. I returned it to the dealer
with a few words about safety. The dealer checked another Phonic power
bar, and it had the same problem. I think they returned all the power
bars to the distributor. They still carry mixers and other doo-dads
from Phonic.

I see no reason to buy anything from a company that cares so little
about quality of their product or safety of their customers.

Any recomendations for EQ in the under $300.00 range?

As others have mentioned, if this is a room problem, EQ will
only suffice in one listening location.

That's all I care about.

It will make anywhere
else in the room worse, and may degrade the sound quality all
by itself.

I'm looking to maximize MY enjoyment, nobody else in the house cares.

Look into what diffusion can do for you first; things
like bookshelves, chairs, couches, hanging objects, etc., may
solve your problem without adding any potentially disastrous EQ.

Having used a variety of EQ's in the past (octave, 2/3 octave, and 1/3
octave) I've never had anything close to a disaster, but I do appreciate the
advice. Most people don't know anything about how to properly EQ with spl
measurements and test tones.

This would be for my benefit in my listening position and could always be
switched out when other people are in the room.

Walk around the room, listening closely at as many locations as
you can, to see where the nodes may be occurring. Don't forget
the upper portion of the room, either. Many people try to treat
a room from where they can reach on downward (because it's a
human trait to think in two dimensions), then they leave the
upper half of the room square and ringing like a banshee...
My advice is that you listen to Mike and Scott whenever *they*
give advice; I have learned a great many things from those two
(as well as others; I was here when Gabe ruled this bandwidth)
over the years. I used to try to solve things with EQ a lot,
then I startted actually *listening*, and found out some very
interesting things about acoustic waves that I should have
remembered all along from my school daze...
--
I'm not discounting anything they say, I'm just set on having my listening
location sound as good as I can make it.

I have limitations of my own that make an Equalizer a good choice.

wrote:


I'm not discounting anything they say, I'm just set on having my listening
location sound as good as I can make it.

I have limitations of my own that make an Equalizer a good choice.

The more damped (absorbent) your room is, the better this will work.
Bright shiny rooms have large positional variations in response even at
small scales which can result in a _very_ small sweet spot with gross
degradation elsewhere. If you are going to do it the Behringer unit is
a good choice.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."

A. Einstein

wrote in message news:La9df.7811


To flatten out the room response.

The 'room response' is a time domain problem. An equaliser can't fix that -
only excite it moer(or less). Save yer dosh and move your speakers around a
bit.

geoff

"Bob Cain" wrote in message
...


wrote:


I'm not discounting anything they say, I'm just set on having my
listening location sound as good as I can make it.

I have limitations of my own that make an Equalizer a good choice.

The more damped (absorbent) your room is, the better this will work.
Bright shiny rooms have large positional variations in response even at
small scales which can result in a _very_ small sweet spot with gross
degradation elsewhere. If you are going to do it the Behringer unit is a
good choice.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."

A. Einstein

Thanks, that's the way I'm leaning.

"Geoff@home" wrote in message
...

wrote in message news:La9df.7811


To flatten out the room response.

The 'room response' is a time domain problem. An equaliser can't fix
that - only excite it moer(or less). Save yer dosh and move your speakers
around a bit.

geoff
The speakers have been everywhere they can and aren't going anywhere else.
I cansmooth out the few rough edges I have in the room with an EQ, so I
will.

wrote in message
nk.net
Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

Is this for use in the tape loop of a consumer amp or
receiver, or will it be front-ending a power amp?

wrote in message
ink.net...

"Geoff@home" wrote in message
...

wrote in message news:La9df.7811


To flatten out the room response.

The 'room response' is a time domain problem. An equaliser can't fix
that - only excite it moer(or less). Save yer dosh and move your
speakers around a bit.

geoff
The speakers have been everywhere they can and aren't going anywhere else.
I cansmooth out the few rough edges I have in the room with an EQ, so I
will.

You don't seem to appreciate that you cna't.

geoff

"Geoff@home" wrote in message

wrote in message
ink.net...

"Geoff@home" wrote in message
...

wrote in message news:La9df.7811


To flatten out the room response.

The 'room response' is a time domain problem. An
equaliser can't fix that - only excite it moer(or
less). Save yer dosh and move your speakers around a
bit.

Speakers and rooms are inherently so messy that they are
rarely if ever really fixed.

geoff
The speakers have been everywhere they can and aren't
going anywhere else. I cansmooth out the few rough edges
I have in the room with an EQ, so I will.

You don't seem to appreciate that you cna't.

You can't fix the problem, but you can make some of the
symptoms more tolerable.

"Geoff@home" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
ink.net...

"Geoff@home" wrote in message
...

wrote in message news:La9df.7811


To flatten out the room response.

The 'room response' is a time domain problem. An equaliser can't fix
that - only excite it moer(or less). Save yer dosh and move your
speakers around a bit.

geoff
The speakers have been everywhere they can and aren't going anywhere
else.
I cansmooth out the few rough edges I have in the room with an EQ, so I
will.

You don't seem to appreciate that you cna't.

geoff
The bottom line is I can make it sound better, and I know this from previous
experience with EQ.

I wish I oculd construct a room that was devoid of problems and perhaps some
day I will. For now, an Equalizer is a simple way for me to make things
sound better.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
nk.net
Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

Is this for use in the tape loop of a consumer amp or receiver, or will it
be front-ending a power amp?

In the tape loop most likely.

The times I've tried using other Equalizers before a power amp, or as a
preamp, I didn't like the results.

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

It's basically cheap MI store junk, and about typical for that grade
of
gear. The equalizer is probably usable. It can't be any worse than
the Alesis.

How is the Alesis bad?

The MEQ-230? It basically doesn't work at all. The interaction between
bands is terrible... you add a peak at 8 KHz and you get a dip at 4 KHz
that comes along with it. This makes it basically unusable for any of
the things you want graphic equalizers for. You fight with it for a
little
while and soon discover it works best when bypassed. I have never used
anything so awful before.


Did you ever have it checked? That seems like something a warranty repair
would have covered.

No, they're all like that. It's a design issue.

I've read some reviews on the pro sound mag websites that were positive.
I know their stuff is not top of the line as is Rane but what specific
problems are noted.

Rane is by no means top of the line, although Rane does make a
parametric
EQ that works if you don't push it too hard.

OK not top of the line but as EQ's go their stuff gets generally high
marks
and seems to made well. I know there are more expensive unit such as
Klark
Teknik, I just don't know that they will accomplish the task of EQ any
better.

Yes, very much so.

In what way?

Based on http://www.roaddog.com/bink/index.php

The things either work or not. What can you point me to that shows that the
RANE units
didn't do as well in an audible way as the Lake Countour or some other that
you would pick as better?

I'm not trying to be contentious and I appreciate the time and expertise you
bring to the discussion, I'm simply trying to get a better understanding of
what should be looked at in making these sort of decisions.

wrote in message
ink.net
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
nk.net
Anyone have experience with their products?

I'm most interested in their i7600 Equalizer.

Comments on build quailty, value for the money, etc.

Is this for use in the tape loop of a consumer amp or
receiver, or will it be front-ending a power amp?

In the tape loop most likely.

The times I've tried using other Equalizers before a
power amp, or as a preamp, I didn't like the results.

Because of the really low signal voltages in a tape loop,
it's a rough place to put equipment designed for standard
audio production levels, IOW +4.

The input of a power amp has higher signal voltages, and is
a better fit.

wrote:
Rane is by no means top of the line, although Rane does make a
parametric
EQ that works if you don't push it too hard.

OK not top of the line but as EQ's go their stuff gets generally high
marks
and seems to made well. I know there are more expensive unit such as
Klark
Teknik, I just don't know that they will accomplish the task of EQ any
better.

Yes, very much so.

In what way?

A better equalizer will have less coloration when it's not boosting or
cutting, and it will have fewer side-effects other than the boost or cut
when it does. A better parametric will _tend_ to be possible to set to
narrower filters as well.

Listen to a cheap equalizer and a good equalizer with all the filters
turned on but set flat, and then in bypass. You'll hear much more of
a difference between the good one and the bad one.

Electronics always color the sound... better electronics will color it
less, but it's best to be able to eliminate anything unneeded from the
signal path. This is why parametrics let you bypass unneeded filters.

Based on http://www.roaddog.com/bink/index.php

The things either work or not. What can you point me to that shows that the
RANE units
didn't do as well in an audible way as the Lake Countour or some other that
you would pick as better?

Give it a listen. Pick two on eval and listen to what they do when you
have them flat, and when you boost or cut.

In theory you could do impulse response plots and also distortion spectra
for these things, but nobody ever does.

REALLY bad equalizers also have stability problems where they break out
into oscillation on peaks. I won't mention any names here.

I'm not trying to be contentious and I appreciate the time and expertise you
bring to the discussion, I'm simply trying to get a better understanding of
what should be looked at in making these sort of decisions.

You have to use your ears. Sadly there is no way around it, because the
manufacturers won't give you useful information on the data sheet. But
there is a reason that the Millennia NSEQ-2 or the Cello Audio Palette
cost a lot more than a Sanyo home graphic. Some of that has to do with
added flexibility, but a lot of it has to do with that coloration that
they don't add.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."