Hi Everyone,

I'm interested in doing outdoor environmental recordings (ocean surf,
storms, rustling leaves, singing birds) with a portable digital audio
recorder and a couple of microphones. I am also on a limited budget, so
let's say I have less than $1,000 to spend on everything. I'm thinking of
getting a portable (battery-operated) digital audio recorder by Marantz that
can sample at cd-quality frequencies and write direclty to a flash-ram card.
Later, I'll transfer the flash-ram data onto my pc and create audio cd's for
myself and my friends. I'd also need a couple of omnidirectional
microphones, probably with wind-screens if I'm planning on recording
outdoors on a windy day.

One thing I'm wondering about is this talk about "phantom mic power" on the
digital recorder. Does this mean that I have to supply external power to
the mics? I'd rather just plug in the microphones and record on battery
power.

Also, does anyone have any thoughts on how good a job these small digital
recorders do (the Marantz unit sells for around $500). I'd rather stay away
from tape-based recorders, and the Marantz unit is pretty small and
lightweight, making it easy to carry around, with a minimum of equipment,
cables, etc.

Thanks for any thoughts,

Scott Speck

"Scott Speck" wrote ...
I'm interested in doing outdoor environmental recordings (ocean surf,
storms, rustling leaves, singing birds) with a portable digital audio
recorder and a couple of microphones. I am also on a limited budget,
so let's say I have less than $1,000 to spend on everything. I'm
thinking of getting a portable (battery-operated) digital audio
recorder by Marantz that can sample at cd-quality frequencies and
write direclty to a flash-ram card. Later, I'll transfer the flash-ram
data onto my pc and create audio cd's for myself and my friends. I'd
also need a couple of omnidirectional microphones, probably with
wind-screens if I'm planning on recording outdoors on a windy day.

One thing I'm wondering about is this talk about "phantom mic power"
on the digital recorder. Does this mean that I have to supply
external power to the mics? I'd rather just plug in the microphones
and record on battery power.

Also, does anyone have any thoughts on how good a job these small
digital recorders do (the Marantz unit sells for around $500). I'd
rather stay away from tape-based recorders, and the Marantz unit is
pretty small and lightweight, making it easy to carry around, with a
minimum of equipment, cables, etc.

This question is frequently discussed here, in rec.audio.pro,
and in rec.arts.movies.production.sound In fact there is at
least one or two ongoing discussions of the Microtrack 2496
running on rec.audio.pro right now, and recently in r.a.m.p.s.
You might want to check those discussions.

groups.google.com will allow you to research past discussions
of those newsgroups, and of your topic. Recording surf sounds
was also discussed recently (I think in r.a.m.p.s)

You might also want to check out what the people who record
bird sounds are saying. An omnidirectional mic may not be the
optimal equipment for that activity. They tend to prefer highly
directional microphones because of the typical distances they
work with.

Whether you need phantom power (and how much) depends
on the microphone. Some need none (or can use internal battery).
Some can run fine on 9 or 12V, or 24V, but some require the
full regulation 48V (not necessarily the ones that are best for
your requirements).

Doing all of that, including decent mics with good outdoor
(furry vs. foam) windscreens, seems pretty ambitious for
only $1K

Hi Richard,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm interested mostly in recording a sound field
that transports the listener (aurally) to the location in question. For
example, I'm not interested in focusing on a bird's song, but merely
recording the ambient sound field in all directions, as you would hear it if
you were at that location. That's why I was thinking of going
omnidirectional. Hence, rustling leaves, birds singing, nearby surf, would
be audible depending on the listener's location.

As for phantom power, I don't even know what it is, let alone how to provide
it if I have to do so. My recording experience previous to this consisted of
hooking up $15 Radio Shack mics to a Tandy/Realistic analog cassette deck
about 25 years ago.

If I could get a decent portable digital audio recorder for around $500 or
$600, and toss in a couple hundred dollars on omni mics, that would keep me
under $1,000. The software to burn cd's from wav files is pretty much
freeware these days, and I'm not interested in doing any sort of "remixing"
of my field-recorded sound, just transfer .wav files to cd's, etc.
Perhaps, if I had some success with all of this, I'd go further with it and
learn more, perhaps involving more and better equipment as time went on.

It might be the case that I seem annoyingly ignorant about all that's
required to make such recordings, but then it's also very possible that I've
been "duped" by equipment ads (such as the one for the small Marantz unit)
that claim one can create great digital recordings with such small "no
frills" units and a couple mics with a minimum of effort.

Thanks again,
Scott

This question is frequently discussed here, in rec.audio.pro,
and in rec.arts.movies.production.sound In fact there is at
least one or two ongoing discussions of the Microtrack 2496
running on rec.audio.pro right now, and recently in r.a.m.p.s.
You might want to check those discussions.

groups.google.com will allow you to research past discussions
of those newsgroups, and of your topic. Recording surf sounds
was also discussed recently (I think in r.a.m.p.s)

You might also want to check out what the people who record
bird sounds are saying. An omnidirectional mic may not be the
optimal equipment for that activity. They tend to prefer highly
directional microphones because of the typical distances they
work with.

Whether you need phantom power (and how much) depends
on the microphone. Some need none (or can use internal battery).
Some can run fine on 9 or 12V, or 24V, but some require the
full regulation 48V (not necessarily the ones that are best for
your requirements).

Doing all of that, including decent mics with good outdoor
(furry vs. foam) windscreens, seems pretty ambitious for
only $1K

In article ,
"Scott Speck" wrote:

As for phantom power, I don't even know what it is, let alone how to provide
it if I have to do so. My recording experience previous to this consisted of
hooking up $15 Radio Shack mics to a Tandy/Realistic analog cassette deck
about 25 years ago.

Condensor microphones need electrical power to operate. Phantom power
means that the power gets transported over the same wires that carry the
signal. It is usually 48V DC (can be lower as well). The Marantz units
will provide that for microphones connected (switcheable).
Some condesonr microphones can be supplied with lower power, or with
batteries in the microphone (eg Sennheiser K6 series).

HTH

Marc

--
Switzerland/Europe
http://www.heusser.com
remove CHEERS and from MERCIAL to get valid e-mail

"Scott Speck" wrote ...
Thanks for your thoughts. I'm interested mostly in recording a sound
field that transports the listener (aurally) to the location in
question. For example, I'm not interested in focusing on a bird's
song, but merely recording the ambient sound field in all directions,
as you would hear it if you were at that location. That's why I was
thinking of going omnidirectional. Hence, rustling leaves, birds
singing, nearby surf, would be audible depending on the listener's
location.

You might want to check out the M-Audio Microtrack
2496 flash audio recorder. MiniDisc (MD) recorders
might also be an option. For recording ambient sounds
out in the field, a stereo point mic might be a convienent
way to go. Sony makes a few like this one (several others)
http://www.minidisco.com/ecm-ms907.html

"Scott Speck" wrote in message

Hi Richard,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm interested mostly in
recording a sound field that transports the listener
(aurally) to the location in question. For example, I'm
not interested in focusing on a bird's song, but merely
recording the ambient sound field in all directions, as
you would hear it if you were at that location. That's
why I was thinking of going omnidirectional. Hence,
rustling leaves, birds singing, nearby surf, would be
audible depending on the listener's location.

The out-of-doors are naturally noisy. If you're in the woods
or a field there are rustling leaves of grasses, bushes and
trees. If you are by the shore, then there is the noise of
the waves. If you are by a stream, then there is the noise
of the water flowing around rocks, etc.

Our hearing is naturally directional. Our heads have fairly
strong effects on natural sound fields called HRTFs. In
addition, our brains use various cues to focus our
attention.

For example, a mono recording taken where you stand at a
cocktail party won't let you hear nearby conversations as
well as you would hear them if you were there. However,
binaural recordings that add HRTFs can come close.

So your presumption that omnidirectional mics are the best
possible choice may not lead to the results you expect.


As for phantom power, I don't even know what it is, let
alone how to provide it if I have to do so.

A high and increasingly large proportion of all mics are
condensor mics. They require a power source whether from
built-in batteries or this so-called "pantom" power that is
provided over a standard mic cable by mixers or recorders.
A modern mic input would be considered incomplete unless it
has a built-in phantom power source.

The maximum spec for phantom power is 48 volts at 10 mA, and
just about any mic will work with this. There are other
standard going as low as 12 volts. In general mics speced at
48 volts will work with less, but they will probably have
reduced ability to handle loud sounds without distortion.

My recording
experience previous to this consisted of hooking up $15
Radio Shack mics to a Tandy/Realistic analog cassette
deck about 25 years ago.

The good news is that your new portable digital recorder
will have at least 1,000 times more dynamic range than a
cassette recorder.

If I could get a decent portable digital audio recorder
for around $500 or $600, and toss in a couple hundred
dollars on omni mics, that would keep me under $1,000.

If I were going to make "natural sounds" recordings
outdoors, I would probably use cardiod mics, or perhaps
shotgun mics.

The software to burn cd's from wav files is pretty much
freeware these days, and I'm not interested in doing any
sort of "remixing" of my field-recorded sound, just
transfer .wav files to cd's, etc.

Editing, breaking the recordings into tracks on logical
bounds, removing distracting sounds, etc are very helpful,
and easy enough to do. There is good editing software such
as Audacity that is free or inexpensive.

If my requirements were like yours, I'd pick the M-Audio
digital recorder that others have mentioned, and match it up
with a pair of cardioid condensor mics that were well-known
for their low noise, such Rode NT1a .

Warning - the M-Audio Microtrack 2496 flash audio recorder
is shaping up as a nice device for an attractive price, but
early models seem to have a number of minor glitches that
are being addressed by way of downloadable firmware updates.

On Sun, 6 Nov 2005 13:07:33 -0800, "Richard Crowley"
wrote:

"Scott Speck" wrote ...
Thanks for your thoughts. I'm interested mostly in recording a sound
field that transports the listener (aurally) to the location in
question. For example, I'm not interested in focusing on a bird's
song, but merely recording the ambient sound field in all directions,
as you would hear it if you were at that location. That's why I was
thinking of going omnidirectional. Hence, rustling leaves, birds
singing, nearby surf, would be audible depending on the listener's
location.

You might want to check out the M-Audio Microtrack
2496 flash audio recorder. MiniDisc (MD) recorders
might also be an option. For recording ambient sounds
out in the field, a stereo point mic might be a convienent
way to go. Sony makes a few like this one (several others)
http://www.minidisco.com/ecm-ms907.html

One problem with those microphones for that application is the bass
response; many of them don't cover 20-100Hz that good. Ambient sound
contain a lot of bass sounds, if you take the time to listen for them.
Be sure to try the mic before you buy.

Have you considered the optimal surround system: binaural recording?
It can be *very* hi-fi!

Per.


Per.

"Per Stromgren" wrote ...
One problem with those microphones for that application is the bass
response; many of them don't cover 20-100Hz that good. Ambient sound
contain a lot of bass sounds, if you take the time to listen for them.
Be sure to try the mic before you buy.

Have you considered the optimal surround system: binaural recording?
It can be *very* hi-fi!

OTOH, binaural pickup systems can also use the same kind of
mic capsules you are warning against with the wimpy low-end.

OTOOH, really good LF response is frequently UN-desirable
when recording outdoors because of the rumble from any number
of sources. People frequently use LF rolloff, and many mics have
switches built-in for LF rolloff.

Scott Speck wrote:

I'm interested in doing outdoor environmental recordings (ocean surf,
storms, rustling leaves, singing birds) with a portable digital audio
recorder and a couple of microphones. I am also on a limited budget, so
let's say I have less than $1,000 to spend on everything. I'm thinking of
getting a portable (battery-operated) digital audio recorder by Marantz that
can sample at cd-quality frequencies and write direclty to a flash-ram card.
Later, I'll transfer the flash-ram data onto my pc and create audio cd's for
myself and my friends. I'd also need a couple of omnidirectional
microphones, probably with wind-screens if I'm planning on recording
outdoors on a windy day.

You'll find a comparison of digital audio recorders he

http://www.core-sound.com/pdaudio_system/10.php

You might also have a look at one of our Binaural (miniature
omnidirectional) microphones. You'll find 30+ pages of user comments on
our Web page.

If I was asked to recommend a good recording system for you based on
what you've told us here, I'd recommend an M-Audio MicroTrack 24/96 and
a pair of our mid-range Core Sound Binaural microphones. The two of
them come in well under your $1000 budget.

Here are the Web pages for them:

http://www.core-sound.com/microtrack_2496/1.php

http://www.core-sound.com/mics/1.php

Feel free to ask more questions.

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.core-sound.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912

Richard Crowley wrote:

OTOH, binaural pickup systems can also use the same kind of
mic capsules you are warning against with the wimpy low-end.

Our High End Binaural microphone set uses DPA 4060-series capsules.
They are flat to below 20 Hz and compare favorably to the much larger
and more costly 4000-series microphones.

Here's a link:

http://www.core-sound.com/bk/1.php

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.core-sound.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912