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David Nebenzahl David Nebenzahl is offline
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Default Value of KLH speakers?

Not exactly a tech question, I know, but I trust I'll be forgiven.

Saw a pair of big old floor cabinet speakers yesterday at a place,
assumed they were Wharfedales or Jensens or some such, but they turned
out to be KLH Model Twelves. Never heard of or saw this model before.

Does anyone know what they might be worth, assuming good working
condition? Yes, I know: they're worth what someone'll pay for them. But
I'm looking for some real-world data here.

They look as if they might make a good set of speakers for someone, but
one would probably want to elevate them off the floor somehow.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
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GregS[_3_] GregS[_3_] is offline
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Default Value of KLH speakers?

In article , David Nebenzahl wrote:
Not exactly a tech question, I know, but I trust I'll be forgiven.

Saw a pair of big old floor cabinet speakers yesterday at a place,
assumed they were Wharfedales or Jensens or some such, but they turned
out to be KLH Model Twelves. Never heard of or saw this model before.

Does anyone know what they might be worth, assuming good working
condition? Yes, I know: they're worth what someone'll pay for them. But
I'm looking for some real-world data here.

They look as if they might make a good set of speakers for someone, but
one would probably want to elevate them off the floor somehow.



First time I heard of them myself. Just got familiar with them a couple minutes ago.
The most important thing is condition, and if these had any special repair needs.
Some of these old speakers held up well, not having foam surrounds.

Just love those big old cabinets. For the non collector, I would guess
they are worth mabe $200-400.

greg
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David Nebenzahl David Nebenzahl is offline
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Default Value of KLH speakers?

On 8/20/2010 11:36 AM GregS spake thus:

In article , David
Nebenzahl wrote:

Not exactly a tech question, I know, but I trust I'll be forgiven.

Saw a pair of big old floor cabinet speakers yesterday at a place,
assumed they were Wharfedales or Jensens or some such, but they
turned out to be KLH Model Twelves. Never heard of or saw this
model before.

Does anyone know what they might be worth, assuming good working
condition? Yes, I know: they're worth what someone'll pay for them.
But I'm looking for some real-world data here.


First time I heard of them myself. Just got familiar with them a
couple minutes ago. The most important thing is condition, and if
these had any special repair needs. Some of these old speakers held
up well, not having foam surrounds.


They're in good condition, cosmetically at least, so there's a good
chance they work well too. The woofer surrounds are fabric, not foam,
and are completely intact.

Just love those big old cabinets. For the non collector, I would
guess they are worth mabe $200-400.


That's in line with what I thought and what they're asking for them.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
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Damon Hill[_2_] Damon Hill[_2_] is offline
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Default Value of KLH speakers?

David Nebenzahl wrote in news:4c6ec712$0$2378
:

Not exactly a tech question, I know, but I trust I'll be forgiven.

Saw a pair of big old floor cabinet speakers yesterday at a place,
assumed they were Wharfedales or Jensens or some such, but they turned
out to be KLH Model Twelves. Never heard of or saw this model before.

Does anyone know what they might be worth, assuming good working
condition? Yes, I know: they're worth what someone'll pay for them. But
I'm looking for some real-world data here.

They look as if they might make a good set of speakers for someone, but
one would probably want to elevate them off the floor somehow.



http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/

There is a KLH speaker discussion group here which should be able to
answer or give an educated guess to your questions. Top topic at the
moment is about Model 12.

--Damon
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default Value of KLH speakers?

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com
Not exactly a tech question, I know, but I trust I'll be
forgiven.
Saw a pair of big old floor cabinet speakers yesterday at
a place, assumed they were Wharfedales or Jensens or some
such, but they turned out to be KLH Model Twelves. Never
heard of or saw this model before.


Back in the day, I really liked how they sounded.

Does anyone know what they might be worth, assuming good
working condition? Yes, I know: they're worth what
someone'll pay for them. But I'm looking for some
real-world data here.


Check eBay and other audio autcion site closed auctions.

They look as if they might make a good set of speakers
for someone, but one would probably want to elevate them
off the floor somehow.


They were intended to be floor-standing, check the classic speaker pages
ads:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/l...12_ad_earlier/




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David Nebenzahl David Nebenzahl is offline
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Default Value of KLH speakers?

On 8/22/2010 4:53 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com

Not exactly a tech question, I know, but I trust I'll be
forgiven.
Saw a pair of big old floor cabinet speakers yesterday at
a place, assumed they were Wharfedales or Jensens or some
such, but they turned out to be KLH Model Twelves. Never
heard of or saw this model before.


Back in the day, I really liked how they sounded.


Good to know.

Does anyone know what they might be worth, assuming good
working condition? Yes, I know: they're worth what
someone'll pay for them. But I'm looking for some
real-world data here.


Check eBay and other audio autcion site closed auctions.


The reason I'm reluctant to go by eBay prices is that these would be so
dang hard (and expen$ive) to ship. I'm thinking more along the lines of
Craigslist, or of holding on to them for a while and finding a collector
willing to pay more.

They look as if they might make a good set of speakers
for someone, but one would probably want to elevate them
off the floor somehow.


They were intended to be floor-standing, check the classic speaker pages
ads:


Yes, I know that; it's just that they'd probably sound better off the
floor, as unwieldy as that might be. Maybe on short platforms?


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com
On 8/22/2010 4:53 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in
message
.com
Not exactly a tech question, I know, but I trust I'll be
forgiven.
Saw a pair of big old floor cabinet speakers yesterday
at a place, assumed they were Wharfedales or Jensens or
some such, but they turned out to be KLH Model Twelves.
Never heard of or saw this model before.


Back in the day, I really liked how they sounded.


Good to know.


I generally liked the sound of KLH speakers, though as close as I got to
owning any of them was a pair of larger Advents.

Does anyone know what they might be worth, assuming good
working condition? Yes, I know: they're worth what
someone'll pay for them. But I'm looking for some
real-world data here.


Check eBay and other audio autcion site closed auctions.


The reason I'm reluctant to go by eBay prices is that
these would be so dang hard (and expen$ive) to ship. I'm
thinking more along the lines of Craigslist, or of
holding on to them for a while and finding a collector
willing to pay more.


I'm just talking about price guidance.

They look as if they might make a good set of speakers
for someone, but one would probably want to elevate them
off the floor somehow.


They were intended to be floor-standing, check the
classic speaker pages ads:


Yes, I know that; it's just that they'd probably sound
better off the floor, as unwieldy as that might be. Maybe
on short platforms?


I hesitate to elevate speakers that were designed to be floor standers.

The lowest octave response of speakers is designed for aq certain space that
they work into. Some speakers are desgned for what is known as a half-space,
such as on a wall or in the middle of a floor. Others are designed for a
quarter-space such as the middle of a corner or near a floor or a ceiling. A
few speakers are designed for use in either a full space - suspended in the
middle of free space or an eigth-space which would be in a corner at the
floor or the ceiling. Using a speaker in a space other than the one that it
was properly designed can reasonably be expected to produce incorrect bass
response.


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Eeyore[_4_] Eeyore[_4_] is offline
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Default Value of KLH speakers?

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 8/22/2010 4:53 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

They were intended to be floor-standing, check the classic speaker
pages ads:


Yes, I know that; it's just that they'd probably sound better off the
floor


What makes you think that ?


Graham
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Eeyore[_4_] Eeyore[_4_] is offline
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Arny Krueger wrote:

I hesitate to elevate speakers that were designed to be floor standers.

The lowest octave response of speakers is designed for aq certain space that
they work into. Some speakers are desgned for what is known as a half-space,
such as on a wall or in the middle of a floor. Others are designed for a
quarter-space such as the middle of a corner or near a floor or a ceiling. A
few speakers are designed for use in either a full space - suspended in the
middle of free space or an eigth-space which would be in a corner at the
floor or the ceiling. Using a speaker in a space other than the one that it
was properly designed can reasonably be expected to produce incorrect bass
response.


You hit the nail on the head, however I doubt that more than a tiny
fraction of users understand the 'space' issue, e.g.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_space


Graham
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Bill Graham Bill Graham is offline
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Default Value of KLH speakers?


"Eeyore" m wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:

I hesitate to elevate speakers that were designed to be floor standers.

The lowest octave response of speakers is designed for aq certain space
that they work into. Some speakers are desgned for what is known as a
half-space, such as on a wall or in the middle of a floor. Others are
designed for a quarter-space such as the middle of a corner or near a
floor or a ceiling. A few speakers are designed for use in either a full
space - suspended in the middle of free space or an eigth-space which
would be in a corner at the floor or the ceiling. Using a speaker in a
space other than the one that it was properly designed can reasonably be
expected to produce incorrect bass response.


You hit the nail on the head, however I doubt that more than a tiny
fraction of users understand the 'space' issue, e.g.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_space


Graham


I have a friend whose house if full of small speakers about 6 inches in
diameter....He's got at least two of them in every room. He has one huge
woofer that's hidden behind and below the TV in his living room.....I think
it may be bolted to the floor, because you can hear the whole house shake if
the music contains the lows to do it. It really made me re evaluate my own
thoughts on speakers....All you really need is one good bolted down woofer,
and all the other speakers can be small and relatively cheap, and you get a
fantastic sound system.



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Eeyore[_4_] Eeyore[_4_] is offline
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Bill Graham wrote:

"Eeyore" m wrote in
message ...
Arny Krueger wrote:

I hesitate to elevate speakers that were designed to be floor standers.

The lowest octave response of speakers is designed for aq certain
space that they work into. Some speakers are desgned for what is
known as a half-space, such as on a wall or in the middle of a floor.
Others are designed for a quarter-space such as the middle of a
corner or near a floor or a ceiling. A few speakers are designed for
use in either a full space - suspended in the middle of free space or
an eigth-space which would be in a corner at the floor or the
ceiling. Using a speaker in a space other than the one that it was
properly designed can reasonably be expected to produce incorrect
bass response.


You hit the nail on the head, however I doubt that more than a tiny
fraction of users understand the 'space' issue, e.g.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_space


Graham


I have a friend whose house if full of small speakers about 6 inches in
diameter....He's got at least two of them in every room. He has one huge
woofer that's hidden behind and below the TV in his living room.....I
think it may be bolted to the floor, because you can hear the whole
house shake if the music contains the lows to do it. It really made me
re evaluate my own thoughts on speakers....All you really need is one
good bolted down woofer, and all the other speakers can be small and
relatively cheap, and you get a fantastic sound system.


Not if you want to hear any stereo content in the bass region.

Graham
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Bill Graham Bill Graham is offline
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"Eeyore" m wrote in message
...
Bill Graham wrote:

"Eeyore" m wrote in
message ...
Arny Krueger wrote:

I hesitate to elevate speakers that were designed to be floor standers.

The lowest octave response of speakers is designed for aq certain space
that they work into. Some speakers are desgned for what is known as a
half-space, such as on a wall or in the middle of a floor. Others are
designed for a quarter-space such as the middle of a corner or near a
floor or a ceiling. A few speakers are designed for use in either a
full space - suspended in the middle of free space or an eigth-space
which would be in a corner at the floor or the ceiling. Using a
speaker in a space other than the one that it was properly designed can
reasonably be expected to produce incorrect bass response.

You hit the nail on the head, however I doubt that more than a tiny
fraction of users understand the 'space' issue, e.g.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_space


Graham


I have a friend whose house if full of small speakers about 6 inches in
diameter....He's got at least two of them in every room. He has one huge
woofer that's hidden behind and below the TV in his living room.....I
think it may be bolted to the floor, because you can hear the whole house
shake if the music contains the lows to do it. It really made me re
evaluate my own thoughts on speakers....All you really need is one good
bolted down woofer, and all the other speakers can be small and
relatively cheap, and you get a fantastic sound system.


Not if you want to hear any stereo content in the bass region.

Graham


That is, (of course) true, but I don't think there IS much stereo content in
the bass region.....At least, I don't seem to hear any, so if it exists, it
is probably hard to hear.

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Michael Black[_2_] Michael Black[_2_] is offline
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Default Value of KLH speakers?

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Bill Graham wrote:

That is, (of course) true, but I don't think there IS much stereo content in
the bass region.....At least, I don't seem to hear any, so if it exists, it
is probably hard to hear.

It depends on how you define "bass".

The point of subwoofers was to provide that extra low frequency coverage.
You'd have regular speakers, and then for the even lower frequencies, ie
lower than good speakers provide, one subwoofer would handle those
frequencies, and yes, down there it's non-directional.

The concept has been mangled in recent years, with the coming of "computer
speakers" and "surround sound speaker systems". There, at least in the
low range, the small speakers won't give much bass, and the "subwoofer"
is too small to provide extended bass. They are using the "subwoofer"
to cover what normal speakers would provide, normal "bass". And thus
except if you spend lots of money, it ruins the whole concept. I've seen
bigger woofers in "bookshelf" speakers than a lot of those low end
"subwoofers" and the boxes they are in aren't much better.

Michael

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David Nebenzahl David Nebenzahl is offline
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Default Value of KLH speakers?

On 8/26/2010 5:55 PM Eeyore spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/22/2010 4:53 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

They were intended to be floor-standing, check the classic speaker
pages ads:


Yes, I know that; it's just that they'd probably sound better off the
floor


What makes you think that ?


Intuition.

Granted, I don't have the technical knowledge about audio that you and
others here do, so I'm not looking to start an argument here. It's just
that to me, it seems counterintuitive to place any speaker on the floor
and expect good results. I remember the advice given back in the 70s and
80s: get those speakers off the floor!

It seems to me (again, my untutored intuition) that while low
frequencies would project fine with a woofer placed close to the floor,
anything higher--say, 400 Hz up--would suffer from such placement.

Of course, much depends on many factors: the floor covering, room
geometry, etc., etc. Carpeted floors can't be good for *any* speakers.

I'm certainly willing to be proven wrong here. It just has never seemed
like a good idea to me to put speakers on the floor, and I was frankly
surprised to run across this specimen of KLH speaker which was obviously
designed for that very placement.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com
On 8/26/2010 5:55 PM Eeyore spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/22/2010 4:53 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

They were intended to be floor-standing, check the
classic speaker pages ads:

Yes, I know that; it's just that they'd probably sound
better off the floor


What makes you think that ?


Intuition.

Granted, I don't have the technical knowledge about audio
that you and others here do, so I'm not looking to start
an argument here. It's just that to me, it seems
counterintuitive to place any speaker on the floor and
expect good results.


To you.

Speakers that are designed to be floor standing should be used that way.

I remember the advice given back in
the 70s and 80s: get those speakers off the floor!


That applied to speakers designed for bookshelf installation.

It seems to me (again, my untutored intuition) that while
low frequencies would project fine with a woofer placed
close to the floor, anything higher--say, 400 Hz
up--would suffer from such placement.


Not suffer, be changed.

Of course, much depends on many factors: the floor
covering, room geometry, etc., etc. Carpeted floors can't
be good for *any* speakers.


Simply not true.

I'm certainly willing to be proven wrong here. It just
has never seemed like a good idea to me to put speakers
on the floor, and I was frankly surprised to run across
this specimen of KLH speaker which was obviously designed
for that very placement.


That's the key - speakers need to be designed for specific postitioning, and
end-users need to make that one criteria for acquisition.




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David Nebenzahl David Nebenzahl is offline
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On 8/29/2010 5:27 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com

It seems to me (again, my untutored intuition) that while
low frequencies would project fine with a woofer placed
close to the floor, anything higher--say, 400 Hz
up--would suffer from such placement.


Not suffer, be changed.


So it's possible that mid to high frequencies might be enhanced by floor
placement? Bass I can see.

Of course, much depends on many factors: the floor
covering, room geometry, etc., etc. Carpeted floors can't
be good for *any* speakers.


Simply not true.


Really? Carpet doesn't "eat up" high frequencies?

Although I suppose this could be corrected by simply changing the
tweeter level, assuming the speaker system has such an adjustment.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com
On 8/29/2010 5:27 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in
message
.com
It seems to me (again, my untutored intuition) that
while low frequencies would project fine with a woofer
placed close to the floor, anything higher--say, 400 Hz
up--would suffer from such placement.


Not suffer, be changed.


So it's possible that mid to high frequencies might be
enhanced by floor placement? Bass I can see.


It's all about balance. Too much enhancement of either bass or treble is a
bad thing.

Speakers that were designed by competent engineers usually sound best when
they are installed and used as intended.

Of course, much depends on many factors: the floor
covering, room geometry, etc., etc. Carpeted floors
can't be good for *any* speakers.


Simply not true.


Really? Carpet doesn't "eat up" high frequencies?


Again, its about balance. Many speakers are designed with the presumption
that there will be a carpet and it will diminish the high frequencies to a
certain extent. If they are used with carpeting then they sound more
balanced than they will if they are used with bare floors.

Although I suppose this could be corrected by simply
changing the tweeter level, assuming the speaker system
has such an adjustment.


Ever hear of electronic equalizers? You can make some headway along the
lines of restoring balance with them. The alternative is to use speakers as
they were designed to be used.


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"Arny Krueger" writes:
[...]
Speakers that were designed by competent engineers usually sound best when
they are installed and used as intended.


That's generally good advice. The problem is, there are
several variables in actual installations that may not
match what the engineer intended and which are not easy
to change, a good example being hardwood floors instead
of some assumed carpet.

But this dialog has brought up a thought: why aren't there
(at least some) speakers that adapt to their installation?
I can imagine a wireless sensor being provided with the
speakers that is placed at or near the listening position
and with which the speaker system can measure important
parameters of it's surroundings and attempt to compensate.
--
Randy Yates % "How's life on earth?
Digital Signal Labs % ... What is it worth?"
% 'Mission (A World Record)',
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com % *A New World Record*, ELO
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"Randy Yates" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" writes:
[...]
Speakers that were designed by competent engineers
usually sound best when they are installed and used as
intended.


That's generally good advice. The problem is, there are
several variables in actual installations that may not
match what the engineer intended and which are not easy
to change, a good example being hardwood floors instead
of some assumed carpet.


But this dialog has brought up a thought: why aren't there
(at least some) speakers that adapt to their installation?
I can imagine a wireless sensor being provided with the
speakers that is placed at or near the listening position
and with which the speaker system can measure important
parameters of it's surroundings and attempt to compensate.


There are some speakers that come with that facility. I believe JBL/Infinity
have this. There are also third-party products such as Audessy.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/genera...x?PId=28&MId=5

http://www.krksys.com/product_ergo.php

http://www.jblpro.com/press/evo_press_release.htm

http://www.realtraps.com/art_audyssey.htm


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Randy Yates Randy Yates is offline
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"Arny Krueger" writes:

"Randy Yates" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" writes:
[...]
Speakers that were designed by competent engineers
usually sound best when they are installed and used as
intended.


That's generally good advice. The problem is, there are
several variables in actual installations that may not
match what the engineer intended and which are not easy
to change, a good example being hardwood floors instead
of some assumed carpet.


But this dialog has brought up a thought: why aren't there
(at least some) speakers that adapt to their installation?
I can imagine a wireless sensor being provided with the
speakers that is placed at or near the listening position
and with which the speaker system can measure important
parameters of it's surroundings and attempt to compensate.


There are some speakers that come with that facility. I believe JBL/Infinity
have this. There are also third-party products such as Audessy.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/genera...x?PId=28&MId=5

http://www.krksys.com/product_ergo.php

http://www.jblpro.com/press/evo_press_release.htm

http://www.realtraps.com/art_audyssey.htm


Interesting. Thanks for the links, Arny.
--
Randy Yates % "How's life on earth?
Digital Signal Labs % ... What is it worth?"
% 'Mission (A World Record)',
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com % *A New World Record*, ELO


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dizzy dizzy is offline
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David Nebenzahl wrote:

Carpet doesn't "eat up" high frequencies?


What, you have a sheet of carpet hanging from the ceiling, to block
the sound from getting directly from the speaker to your head?

Sheesh. Let's engage our brains, here.

(Hopefully no one will be so stupid to "inform" me about reflections.
We don't "need" reflections from walls and floors to hear a
loudspeaker.)

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Bill Graham wrote:

All you really need is one good bolted down woofer,


It need not be bolted-down, of course.

and all the other speakers can be small and relatively cheap, and you get a
fantastic sound system.


Sure. The amplifiers for the "main" speakers can be smaller as well.
Subwoofers can be the way to go, in many, if not most, situations.

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Bill Graham wrote:

"Eeyore" m wrote in
message ...
Bill Graham wrote:

"Eeyore" m wrote in
message ...
Arny Krueger wrote:

I hesitate to elevate speakers that were designed to be floor
standers.

The lowest octave response of speakers is designed for aq certain
space that they work into. Some speakers are desgned for what is
known as a half-space, such as on a wall or in the middle of a
floor. Others are designed for a quarter-space such as the middle
of a corner or near a floor or a ceiling. A few speakers are
designed for use in either a full space - suspended in the middle
of free space or an eigth-space which would be in a corner at the
floor or the ceiling. Using a speaker in a space other than the
one that it was properly designed can reasonably be expected to
produce incorrect bass response.

You hit the nail on the head, however I doubt that more than a tiny
fraction of users understand the 'space' issue, e.g.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_space


Graham

I have a friend whose house if full of small speakers about 6 inches
in diameter....He's got at least two of them in every room. He has
one huge woofer that's hidden behind and below the TV in his living
room.....I think it may be bolted to the floor, because you can hear
the whole house shake if the music contains the lows to do it. It
really made me re evaluate my own thoughts on speakers....All you
really need is one good bolted down woofer, and all the other
speakers can be small and relatively cheap, and you get a fantastic
sound system.


Not if you want to hear any stereo content in the bass region.

Graham


That is, (of course) true, but I don't think there IS much stereo
content in the bass region.....At least, I don't seem to hear any, so if
it exists, it is probably hard to hear.


Depends on the music source. Modern electronic rock / pop music is
likely to have more stereo bass content than an orchestra I'd suspect.

The big misunderstanding about bass is the myth that it is all
omnidirectional.

More correctly, the cabinet radiation at low frequencies is nearly
omnidirectional but that is an entirely different matter from the
content of the source and yes it IS audible.

Graham
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Michael Black wrote:
On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Bill Graham wrote:

That is, (of course) true, but I don't think there IS much stereo
content in the bass region.....At least, I don't seem to hear any, so
if it exists, it is probably hard to hear.

It depends on how you define "bass".

The point of subwoofers was to provide that extra low frequency coverage.
You'd have regular speakers, and then for the even lower frequencies, ie
lower than good speakers provide, one subwoofer would handle those
frequencies, and yes, down there it's non-directional.

The concept has been mangled in recent years, with the coming of "computer
speakers" and "surround sound speaker systems". There, at least in the
low range, the small speakers won't give much bass, and the "subwoofer"
is too small to provide extended bass. They are using the "subwoofer"
to cover what normal speakers would provide, normal "bass". And thus
except if you spend lots of money, it ruins the whole concept. I've
seen bigger woofers in "bookshelf" speakers than a lot of those low end
"subwoofers" and the boxes they are in aren't much better.


'Mangled' is a good description of the state of affairs.

Graham
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Arny Krueger wrote:
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com
On 8/26/2010 5:55 PM Eeyore spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/22/2010 4:53 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

They were intended to be floor-standing, check the
classic speaker pages ads:
Yes, I know that; it's just that they'd probably sound
better off the floor
What makes you think that ?

Intuition.

Granted, I don't have the technical knowledge about audio
that you and others here do, so I'm not looking to start
an argument here. It's just that to me, it seems
counterintuitive to place any speaker on the floor and
expect good results.


Speaker behaviour at low frequencies is HIGHLY influenced by placement.
At one time extended bass response was made popular by 'corner loading'
which is a "1/8th space environment" e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-space


To you.

Speakers that are designed to be floor standing should be used that way.

I remember the advice given back in
the 70s and 80s: get those speakers off the floor!


That applied to speakers designed for bookshelf installation.

It seems to me (again, my untutored intuition) that while
low frequencies would project fine with a woofer placed
close to the floor, anything higher--say, 400 Hz
up--would suffer from such placement.


Not suffer, be changed.

Of course, much depends on many factors: the floor
covering, room geometry, etc., etc. Carpeted floors can't
be good for *any* speakers.


Simply not true.

I'm certainly willing to be proven wrong here. It just
has never seemed like a good idea to me to put speakers
on the floor, and I was frankly surprised to run across
this specimen of KLH speaker which was obviously designed
for that very placement.


That's the key - speakers need to be designed for specific postitioning, and
end-users need to make that one criteria for acquisition.


Very much agreed.

Graham


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David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 8/29/2010 5:27 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:
"David Nebenzahl" wrote

It seems to me (again, my untutored intuition) that while
low frequencies would project fine with a woofer placed
close to the floor, anything higher--say, 400 Hz
up--would suffer from such placement.


Not suffer, be changed.


So it's possible that mid to high frequencies might be enhanced by floor
placement?


Enhanced ? What is your idea of 'enhancememt' ? It all depends on the
physical construction of the speaker.

Bass I can see.

Of course, much depends on many factors: the floor
covering, room geometry, etc., etc. Carpeted floors can't
be good for *any* speakers.


Simply not true.


Really? Carpet doesn't "eat up" high frequencies?


Who said the floor was carpeted ?

Most studio control rooms I encounter have wooden floors ! I wonder why ?

Graham
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dizzy wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:

Carpet doesn't "eat up" high frequencies?


What, you have a sheet of carpet hanging from the ceiling, to block
the sound from getting directly from the speaker to your head?

Sheesh. Let's engage our brains, here.

(Hopefully no one will be so stupid to "inform" me about reflections.
We don't "need" reflections from walls and floors to hear a
loudspeaker.)


Have you ever been in an anechoic room ? It's truly 'weird'.

Graham
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Arny Krueger wrote:

Ever hear of electronic equalizers? You can make some headway along the
lines of restoring balance with them.


Funny you should say that. I've been developing an ultra-accurate
electronic crossover for studio use in combination with a studio
installation company and the first additional request was for an
integrated parametric EQ ( now designed and retrofitted ).

Graham
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Randy Yates wrote:
"Arny Krueger" writes:
[...]
Speakers that were designed by competent engineers usually sound best when
they are installed and used as intended.


That's generally good advice. The problem is, there are
several variables in actual installations that may not
match what the engineer intended and which are not easy
to change, a good example being hardwood floors instead
of some assumed carpet.


Very true.

But this dialog has brought up a thought: why aren't there
(at least some) speakers that adapt to their installation?
I can imagine a wireless sensor being provided with the
speakers that is placed at or near the listening position
and with which the speaker system can measure important
parameters of it's surroundings and attempt to compensate.


A speaker expert friend of mine has had good results with programmable
equalisers driven by a response correction program on a PC. Only works
best for one listening position of course.

Graham
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dizzy wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

All you really need is one good bolted down woofer,


It need not be bolted-down, of course.

and all the other speakers can be small and relatively cheap, and you get a
fantastic sound system.


Sure. The amplifiers for the "main" speakers can be smaller as well.
Subwoofers can be the way to go, in many, if not most, situations.


Ahhhhhh, the fetid smell of the omnidirectional bass myth.

Graham


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On 9/5/2010 10:02 PM Eeyore spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/29/2010 5:27 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote

Of course, much depends on many factors: the floor covering,
room geometry, etc., etc. Carpeted floors can't be good for
*any* speakers.

Simply not true.


Really? Carpet doesn't "eat up" high frequencies?


Who said the floor was carpeted ?

Most studio control rooms I encounter have wooden floors ! I wonder why ?


My point was that the floor the speakers is placed on *could* easily be
carpeted. Certainly not my choice of floor covering here, but it exists
in many places out there in the wild.

And yes, I certainly wouldn't expect to see carpet in a studio control room.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
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"Eeyore" m wrote in message
...
Sure. The amplifiers for the "main" speakers can be smaller as well.
Subwoofers can be the way to go, in many, if not most, situations.


Ahhhhhh, the fetid smell of the omnidirectional bass myth.


Beats the smell of the "directional 20Hz" myth I guess. IF you define a sub
woofer properly (rather than simply calling any normal woofer a sub woofer)
then the sub 50Hz bass region is not going to be too bothered by
directionality in any normal room.

Of course IF you consider anything below 1kHz as "sub woofer" material (like
some advertising copy writers do) then you definitely WOULD have a problem.

MrT.


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In article , David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/5/2010 10:02 PM Eeyore spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/29/2010 5:27 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote

Of course, much depends on many factors: the floor covering,
room geometry, etc., etc. Carpeted floors can't be good for
*any* speakers.

Simply not true.

Really? Carpet doesn't "eat up" high frequencies?


Who said the floor was carpeted ?

Most studio control rooms I encounter have wooden floors ! I wonder why ?


My point was that the floor the speakers is placed on *could* easily be
carpeted. Certainly not my choice of floor covering here, but it exists
in many places out there in the wild.

And yes, I certainly wouldn't expect to see carpet in a studio control room.



I would say carpeting is mandatory in my view in any audio room. So
is wall treatments, and ceiling treatments.

greg
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Mr.T wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote:

Sure. The amplifiers for the "main" speakers can be smaller as well.
Subwoofers can be the way to go, in many, if not most, situations.


Ahhhhhh, the fetid smell of the omnidirectional bass myth.


Beats the smell of the "directional 20Hz" myth I guess. IF you define a sub
woofer properly (rather than simply calling any normal woofer a sub woofer)
then the sub 50Hz bass region is not going to be too bothered by
directionality in any normal room.


Exactly.

Of course IF you consider anything below 1kHz as "sub woofer" material (like
some advertising copy writers do) then you definitely WOULD have a problem.


Plus, stereo subs can be used, if wanted. Mine are stereo, in fact
(although mono'ed for 5.1 movies).

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"dizzy" wrote in message
...
Plus, stereo subs can be used, if wanted.


Of course, if space and budget permit.

Mine are stereo, in fact


As are mine. Of course a very good reason for most people to do so is if
they cross them over at higher frequencies, or use a more gradual slope.


(although mono'ed for 5.1 movies).


I doubt you will find any stereo separation below 50Hz on any music CD
either, and definitely not on any vinyl source. So there is no difference
between twin mono (real) SUB woofers, and true stereo for all practical
purposes anyway.

MrT.





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On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:38:32 +1000, Mr.T MrT@home wrote:

I doubt you will find any stereo separation below 50Hz on any music CD
either, and definitely not on any vinyl source. So there is no difference
between twin mono (real) SUB woofers, and true stereo for all practical
purposes anyway.


Unless your room is at least 50' wide, it won't be heard in stereo.
Wavelength for a 50hz wave is 22'. Let it bounce off the near walls and
it will definately not be stereo by the time it reaches the listener.

If you can hear where sound is coming from your subs, it is because of
harmonics above about 80-100hz.



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"Eeyore" m
wrote in message

dizzy wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

All you really need is one good bolted down woofer,


It need not be bolted-down, of course.

and all the other speakers can be small and relatively
cheap, and you get a fantastic sound system.


Sure. The amplifiers for the "main" speakers can be
smaller as well. Subwoofers can be the way to go, in
many, if not most, situations.


Ahhhhhh, the fetid smell of the omnidirectional bass myth.


There's only a myth if one takes an extreme position.

Given that people use subwoofers crossed over at 125 Hz (LFE) or higher
(small 2.1 computer speaker systems) then the so-called bass can be at high
enough of a frequency to be directional.

If the two high range speakers go down to 50 Hz and are six feet apart, then
the bass from a subwoofer positioned between them is practiacally
omnidirectional.

If your listening room is 25 feet wide, you put a subwoofer on each side of
your listening position, and we consider that the ear can actually hear
phase changes at frequencies this low, then bass may indeed be directional.


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"AZ Nomad" wrote in message

On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:38:32 +1000, Mr.T MrT@home wrote:

I doubt you will find any stereo separation below 50Hz
on any music CD either, and definitely not on any vinyl
source. So there is no difference between twin mono
(real) SUB woofers, and true stereo for all practical
purposes anyway.


Unless your room is at least 50' wide, it won't be heard
in stereo.


If you have two subwoofers driven by a stereo source, and there is
significant phase shift between them, then you may have some significant
frequency response variations. One question will be whether or not the
frequency response variations due to phase are masked by standing waves in
the room which abound at low frequencies.



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"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:38:32 +1000, Mr.T MrT@home wrote:

I doubt you will find any stereo separation below 50Hz on any music CD
either, and definitely not on any vinyl source. So there is no difference
between twin mono (real) SUB woofers, and true stereo for all practical
purposes anyway.


Unless your room is at least 50' wide, it won't be heard in stereo.
Wavelength for a 50hz wave is 22'. Let it bounce off the near walls and
it will definately not be stereo by the time it reaches the listener.

If you can hear where sound is coming from your subs, it is because of
harmonics above about 80-100hz.




Not sure how relevant this is to your discussion, but I play a trumpet, and
I amplify my sound sometimes, so I can use special effects, and I have to
cut off anything below about 100 Hz, in order to eliminate the valve clunk I
get when my valves return to their highest, "relaxed" position.....There is
a lot of low frequency noise in any recorded band. Not just valve "clunk",
but guitar fretboard noise and other stuff like that.....I can get rid of
most of it with a low cut filter, but not all of it.....

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In article , "Bill Graham" wrote:

"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:38:32 +1000, Mr.T MrT@home wrote:

I doubt you will find any stereo separation below 50Hz on any music CD
either, and definitely not on any vinyl source. So there is no difference
between twin mono (real) SUB woofers, and true stereo for all practical
purposes anyway.


Unless your room is at least 50' wide, it won't be heard in stereo.
Wavelength for a 50hz wave is 22'. Let it bounce off the near walls and
it will definately not be stereo by the time it reaches the listener.

If you can hear where sound is coming from your subs, it is because of
harmonics above about 80-100hz.




Not sure how relevant this is to your discussion, but I play a trumpet, and
I amplify my sound sometimes, so I can use special effects, and I have to
cut off anything below about 100 Hz, in order to eliminate the valve clunk I
get when my valves return to their highest, "relaxed" position.....There is
a lot of low frequency noise in any recorded band. Not just valve "clunk",
but guitar fretboard noise and other stuff like that.....I can get rid of
most of it with a low cut filter, but not all of it.....


I used to try and play trumpet. You could cut it off way higher I'm sure.

I have in the past used signal generators and try to find how high before
localization occurs. 70 Hz and below is pretty safe. Even my cheap signal
generator has .5% distortion, but my old HP does way better. Any
little noise can be localized, especially woofer wind or basket noise.


greg
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