On Thu, 25 May 2006 14:10:23 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:


So it seems to me that all he really wants and needs is a piece of
software--like the Windows mixer he's now using--that would allow him to
set the balance level as he transfers each tape. Would this not qualify
as "on the fly"? Or maybe I'm missing something here.

Yup. You're missing that most soundcards don't have an
digitally-controlled analogue attenuator in front of the ADC. You
have to feed it what you want recorded. Manipulation happens later.

A soundcard requires the CORRECT input. A mixer is the tool that
provides this. Very cheap ones are adequate, and available. Even, I
believe, in Australia. An added bonus is that he'll be able to use
a quality microphone should he, in the future, decide to do any
recording himself.

On Fri, 26 May 2006 11:06:35 +1000, "Neil Green"
wrote:

Thanks Tom, yes I've done that.
The balance varies depending on the cassette (Most of which are fairly well
used), some times higher in the left, sometimes the right, mostly OK between
both, so it's not an issue of dirty play heads.
The sound quality is excellent, just the balance control that needs sorting
out.

Come to think of it, if you want to balance while recording, you'll
need a trial run of a section of each tape in order to set the
balance. Is doing this, then rewinding and starting over, really any
less work than performing a non-stereo-linked normalisation in CEP?

On Fri, 26 May 2006 11:49:23 +1000, "Neil Green"
wrote:

Yes it is, and there doesn't seem to be any utility to adjust recording
levels.
There's an equalizer and utilities to setup surround sound and other stuff
but nothing to over ride the Windows recording mixer.

It's not the "Windows MIxer". It's a simplified interface to your
soundcard's mixer.

You (and David Nebenzahl) are stuck with the misconception that
soundcards generally HAVE a recording level control function.

Arny Krueger spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com

Peter Larsen spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Yes you a his soundcard does not permit the
required real time adjustment.

Do you know that for sure, or is it possible that the
Windoze software is broken?

The "windows mixer" is the graphics front end, what it
can offer is what the sound card drivers offer.

Maybe he needs new sound card drivers then.

The hardware that the drivers operate may not have implemented the feature.

Come on, I find that hard to believe. We're talking about a *balance
control* here, not a 5-way bit-stretching interocitor. In software, all
that's needed to implement a balance control are volume controls for
each channel; surely those are implemented in hardware, no?


--
I hope that in a few years it [Wikipedia] will be so bloated that it
will simply disintegrate, because I can't stand the thought that this
thing might someday actually be used as a serious reference source.
Because in its current form, it's not to be taken seriously at all.

- Horst Prillinger (see
http://homepage.univie.ac.at/horst.p...06/000623.html)

Laurence Payne spake thus:

On Fri, 26 May 2006 11:49:23 +1000, "Neil Green"
wrote:

Yes it is, and there doesn't seem to be any utility to adjust recording
levels.
There's an equalizer and utilities to setup surround sound and other stuff
but nothing to over ride the Windows recording mixer.

It's not the "Windows MIxer". It's a simplified interface to your
soundcard's mixer.

You (and David Nebenzahl) are stuck with the misconception that
soundcards generally HAVE a recording level control function.

That's the one thing I would *assume* that they have. Why would you
think they wouldn't? It would be the simplest thing in the world to
implement, and it's hard to see how even a penny-pinching engineer would
throw such a useful function overboard.


--
I hope that in a few years it [Wikipedia] will be so bloated that it
will simply disintegrate, because I can't stand the thought that this
thing might someday actually be used as a serious reference source.
Because in its current form, it's not to be taken seriously at all.

- Horst Prillinger (see
http://homepage.univie.ac.at/horst.p...06/000623.html)

David Nebenzahl wrote:

a his soundcard does not permit the required real time
adjustment.

Do you know that for sure, or is it possible that the Windoze software
is broken? (Has been known to have happened, you know.) He didn't tell
us what kind of sound card he has, by the way.

Ever thought of a shrink to have your Windows fixation fixed ?

geoff

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 May 2006 11:06:35 +1000, "Neil Green"
wrote:

Thanks Tom, yes I've done that.
The balance varies depending on the cassette (Most of which are fairly
well
used), some times higher in the left, sometimes the right, mostly OK
between
both, so it's not an issue of dirty play heads.
The sound quality is excellent, just the balance control that needs
sorting
out.

Come to think of it, if you want to balance while recording, you'll
need a trial run of a section of each tape in order to set the
balance. Is doing this, then rewinding and starting over, really any
less work than performing a non-stereo-linked normalisation in CEP?

Not much, but I've found that the cassettes are fairly uniform.
These are audio books, which consist of anywhere between four and sixteen
cassettes per book, and I've generally found that if the right chanell is
higher or lower than the left then it will be pretty much the same for the
whole book.(Must be a manufacturing issue)
Having said that most of the books require no adjustment at all.
So in a perfect world I would adjust the balance for a section of cassette
one, rewind it and start recording and leave it alone until I finish that
particular book instead of post processing each side of each cassette with
Cool Edit.
I'll sort it one way or another, and if not then it's an extra couple of
minutes per side to adjust with Cool Edit.

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com
Arny Krueger spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in
message
.com
Peter Larsen spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Yes you a his soundcard does not permit the
required real time adjustment.

Do you know that for sure, or is it possible that the
Windoze software is broken?

The "windows mixer" is the graphics front end, what it
can offer is what the sound card drivers offer.

Maybe he needs new sound card drivers then.

The hardware that the drivers operate may not have
implemented the feature.

Come on, I find that hard to believe. We're talking about
a *balance control* here, not a 5-way bit-stretching
interocitor. In software, all that's needed to implement
a balance control are volume controls for each channel;
surely those are implemented in hardware, no?

I've done detailed tests on over 100 PC audio interfaces over the years.
I've seen a lot of weirdness, but admittedly not exactly what we're talking
about. I wouldn't confirm it without testing it myself, but I wouldn't rule
it out as a possibility.

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in
message
On Thu, 25 May 2006 14:10:23 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

So it seems to me that all he really wants and needs is
a piece of software--like the Windows mixer he's now
using--that would allow him to set the balance level as
he transfers each tape. Would this not qualify as "on
the fly"? Or maybe I'm missing something here.

Yup. You're missing that most soundcards don't have an
digitally-controlled analogue attenuator in front of the
ADC.

FWIW I can confirm this. Most audio interfaces that implement gain controls
implement them in the digital domain, after the ADCs. If you check out the
costs and performance of digitally-controlled analog attenuators, you'll see
why.

These days even a cheap consumer-oriented audio interface might have 90 dB
dynamic range. A digitallly-controlled analog attenuator with this kind of
performance might easily cost more than the whole rest of the audio
interface.

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com
Laurence Payne spake thus:

On Fri, 26 May 2006 11:49:23 +1000, "Neil Green"
wrote:

Yes it is, and there doesn't seem to be any utility to
adjust recording levels.
There's an equalizer and utilities to setup surround
sound and other stuff but nothing to over ride the
Windows recording mixer.

It's not the "Windows MIxer". It's a simplified
interface to your soundcard's mixer.

You (and David Nebenzahl) are stuck with the
misconception that soundcards generally HAVE a recording
level control function.

That's the one thing I would *assume* that they have. Why
would you think they wouldn't?

Costs and performance.

These days even cheap (ca. $20) consumer audio interfaces may have 90 dB
dynamic range.

For example, I tested a "SoundBlaster Live! 24 bit" PCI audio interface that
I obtained from the local Micro Center store, at the princely sum of $29.95.

Here is a brief summary of its performance:

Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.07, -0.18
Noise level, dB (A): -103.6
Dynamic range, dB (A): 92.0
THD, %: 0.0067
IMD, %: 0.014
Stereo crosstalk, dB: -101.9
IMD at 10 kHz, %: 0.014

It would be the simplest
thing in the world to implement,

Not really - not one that wouldn't compromise the performance of even a
cheap audio interface.

and it's hard to see how
even a penny-pinching engineer would throw such a useful
function overboard.

A good digitally-controlled analog attenuator with 90+ dB dynamic range and
THD 0.01% could easily cost more than every other chip on the board.

David Nebenzahl wrote:
Come on, I find that hard to believe. We're talking about a *balance
control* here, not a 5-way bit-stretching interocitor. In software,
all that's needed to implement a balance control are volume controls
for each channel; surely those are implemented in hardware, no?

No. Just like on the input to stereo mixer channels, power amps, effects
units, etc. Usually no need. If there is, something somewhere else needs
FIXING.

geoff

On Fri, 26 May 2006 12:59:18 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

You (and David Nebenzahl) are stuck with the misconception that
soundcards generally HAVE a recording level control function.

That's the one thing I would *assume* that they have. Why would you
think they wouldn't? It would be the simplest thing in the world to
implement, and it's hard to see how even a penny-pinching engineer would
throw such a useful function overboard.

Stop assuming and research the topic, if you won't take my word for it
:-)

Laurence Payne spake thus:

On Fri, 26 May 2006 12:59:18 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

You (and David Nebenzahl) are stuck with the misconception that
soundcards generally HAVE a recording level control function.

That's the one thing I would *assume* that they have. Why would you
think they wouldn't? It would be the simplest thing in the world to
implement, and it's hard to see how even a penny-pinching engineer would
throw such a useful function overboard.

Stop assuming and research the topic, if you won't take my word for it

All I can tell you is that my own sound card, a Sound Blaster that's
pretty close to the lowest common denominator of sound cards, has line
level controls built into it.

And thank you, but no; I'm not about to undertake a massive research
project just to prove a point in a Usenet conversation.


--
I hope that in a few years it [Wikipedia] will be so bloated that it
will simply disintegrate, because I can't stand the thought that this
thing might someday actually be used as a serious reference source.
Because in its current form, it's not to be taken seriously at all.

- Horst Prillinger (see
http://homepage.univie.ac.at/horst.p...06/000623.html)

David Nebenzahl wrote:

All I can tell you is that my own sound card, a Sound Blaster that's
pretty close to the lowest common denominator of sound cards, has line
level controls built into iT

The level control is AFTER the converter, unless I'm mistaken. This is great
for lowering the volume, but won't prevent clipping on an input level that
is too hot.

geoff

Geoff spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

All I can tell you is that my own sound card, a Sound Blaster that's
pretty close to the lowest common denominator of sound cards, has line
level controls built into iT

The level control is AFTER the converter, unless I'm mistaken. This is great
for lowering the volume, but won't prevent clipping on an input level that
is too hot.

Yes, but with respect to the OPs question that prompted this whole
thread (remember that?), it doesn't matter; all he needs is a level
control (hence a balance control). Before or after the ADC, doesn't matter.


--
I hope that in a few years it [Wikipedia] will be so bloated that it
will simply disintegrate, because I can't stand the thought that this
thing might someday actually be used as a serious reference source.
Because in its current form, it's not to be taken seriously at all.

- Horst Prillinger (see
http://homepage.univie.ac.at/horst.p...06/000623.html)

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
Geoff spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

All I can tell you is that my own sound card, a Sound Blaster that's
pretty close to the lowest common denominator of sound cards, has line
level controls built into iT

The level control is AFTER the converter, unless I'm mistaken. This is
great for lowering the volume, but won't prevent clipping on an input
level that is too hot.

Yes, but with respect to the OPs question that prompted this whole thread
(remember that?), it doesn't matter; all he needs is a level control
(hence a balance control). Before or after the ADC, doesn't matter.

And with thanks to Don Pearce, I now have one that works fine.
Many thanks for all the other suggestions and comments, a most helpful
group.



--
I hope that in a few years it [Wikipedia] will be so bloated that it
will simply disintegrate, because I can't stand the thought that this
thing might someday actually be used as a serious reference source.
Because in its current form, it's not to be taken seriously at all.

- Horst Prillinger (see
http://homepage.univie.ac.at/horst.p...06/000623.html)

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 May 2006 22:42:20 +1000, "Neil Green"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 24 May 2006 22:13:40 +1000, "Neil Green"
wrote:

Can you run the cassette signal through a pre-amp that has a balance
control before you hit the PC? Alternatively if you are handy with a
soldering iron, you can wire a balance control into the wire.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Hi
I don't have access to a preamp and I'd have no idea how to build an
inline
balance control, although I do have a soldering iron.


Sounds dangerous ;-)

It is a bit too complicated to explain here.Do you have no friends who
are up on electronics? It would really be quite a simple thing for
them to do for you.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

I have a rudimentary knowledge of electronics, and no, none of my friends
or
aquaintances are up to speed either.
I would assume a potentiometer and some resistors maybe, but if you could
point me to a simple schematic I'll give it a go.


OK - I've posted one. The values of the components are approximate -
just use what you have to hand and it will work.

http://81.174.169.10

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Don, I forgot that my son's friend is doing an electronics degree at uni,
and he's now put the balance control together for me along the lines you
suggested.
It works fine, so thanks again.

Neil Green spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...

Geoff spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

All I can tell you is that my own sound card, a Sound Blaster that's
pretty close to the lowest common denominator of sound cards, has line
level controls built into iT

The level control is AFTER the converter, unless I'm mistaken. This is
great for lowering the volume, but won't prevent clipping on an input
level that is too hot.

Yes, but with respect to the OPs question that prompted this whole thread
(remember that?), it doesn't matter; all he needs is a level control
(hence a balance control). Before or after the ADC, doesn't matter.

And with thanks to Don Pearce, I now have one that works fine.
Many thanks for all the other suggestions and comments, a most helpful
group.

Good. Case closed. Phew!


--
I hope that in a few years it [Wikipedia] will be so bloated that it
will simply disintegrate, because I can't stand the thought that this
thing might someday actually be used as a serious reference source.
Because in its current form, it's not to be taken seriously at all.

- Horst Prillinger (see
http://homepage.univie.ac.at/horst.p...06/000623.html)

You would be better off starting with a higher resolution analog source
as the parent, i.e. vinyl LP, 45 single, reel to reel at 3.75 or 7.5
IPS, even an 8-track cartridge at 3.75 IPS- all are better resolution
than a cassette is, for a source.

but if cassettes is all you have, then have at it

On Tue, 30 May 2006 10:43:10 +1000, "Neil Green"
wrote:

Don, I forgot that my son's friend is doing an electronics degree at uni,
and he's now put the balance control together for me along the lines you
suggested.

He's doing a degree AND he can use a soldering iron? Pleasantly
unusual! :-)

On Tue, 30 May 2006 10:43:10 +1000, "Neil Green"
wrote:

OK - I've posted one. The values of the components are approximate -
just use what you have to hand and it will work.

http://81.174.169.10

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Don, I forgot that my son's friend is doing an electronics degree at uni,
and he's now put the balance control together for me along the lines you
suggested.
It works fine, so thanks again.


But what did it cost you, a pint?

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On 30 May 2006 07:14:33 -0700, "JimmyPageElectricGuitar"
wrote:

You would be better off starting with a higher resolution analog source
as the parent, i.e. vinyl LP, 45 single, reel to reel at 3.75 or 7.5
IPS, even an 8-track cartridge at 3.75 IPS- all are better resolution
than a cassette is, for a source.

but if cassettes is all you have, then have at it snip

Don't listen to this moron from the depressed NE corner of PA, Charlie
Nudo, aka 66fourdoor on eBay. His brain is permeated with mercury,
and he makes a meager living defrauding people on eBay on his
66fourdoor fraud account. Disregard anything he says
technically....he thinks 8 tracks are superior to LPs!

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 May 2006 10:43:10 +1000, "Neil Green"
wrote:

OK - I've posted one. The values of the components are approximate -
just use what you have to hand and it will work.

http://81.174.169.10

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Don, I forgot that my son's friend is doing an electronics degree at uni,
and he's now put the balance control together for me along the lines you
suggested.
It works fine, so thanks again.


But what did it cost you, a pint?

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

He put it all in a case and mounted some female RCA jacks on either side and
the whole exercise was $25.
Thanks again.