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#1
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d&r dayner hookup problems
Hi all,
I have a D&R Dayner Mixing-Console with 36 Channel In-Line, 1 Effect return and 2 Patchbay-Modules (the console does have three additional Patchbay-Modules, but i don't use them at the moment). The console is configured as followed: 32 x Tape send to Motu 1224 (4 pieces) 32 x Tape return from Motu 1224 (4 pieces) 24 x Line-in for syntesizers, samplers, etc 16 x Mic in But with this configuration I experience some hookup problems: #1: Level differences (in German: pegelunterschiede) between Dayner and Motu 1224: Everything is linked symmectrical. But I do have huge differences in the different levels. The "Tape out" is the ouput too low (ca. -4 db). The hot is linked to the hot, with the Dyner it is linked to the "Ring". On the "Tape return", the levels are way too high. Here the "Hot" is linked to the "Tip" from the Dayner and the "Cold" is linked to the "Ground". As a result there is "only" a difference of +4db, but it is still too much. But does anybody know if the connection and configuration of the system is correct? #2: Set "Line-in" symmectric I've read in the manual of the Dayner, that it is possible somehow to make the "Line-in" work symmetric. I've already asked D&R for help, but unfortuantely, nobody knows how to do it. Does anyone of you have experience with this configuration? Reason: I do have some "Soundmachines" that are too quiet at the moment, which means I need to turn the gain-pot to high. And I guess that if I could make the "Line-in" work symmectrial, I would not need to push the gain at the 3 o"clock position. Or does anybody see another possbility? #3: Is it possible to connect symmetrical sources to the patchbay? Greetings Sascha P.S. Please excuse the very basic questions, but I do not have a lot of experience with pro analog consoles! (shame on me) |
#2
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d&r dayner hookup problems
wrote:
But with this configuration I experience some hookup problems: #1: Level differences (in German: pegelunterschiede) between Dayner and Motu 1224: Everything is linked symmectrical. But I do have huge differences in the different levels. The "Tape out" is the ouput too low (ca. -4 db). The hot is linked to the hot, with the Dyner it is linked to the "Ring". On the "Tape return", the levels are way too high. Here the "Hot" is linked to the "Tip" from the Dayner and the "Cold" is linked to the "Ground". As a result there is "only" a difference of +4db, but it is still too much. But does anybody know if the connection and configuration of the system is correct? If you record something from the Dayner, play it back, are the levels on the Dayner the same? If so, everything is fine. The software meters are not measuring the same thing the console meters are, so you cannot compare them. #2: Set "Line-in" symmectric I've read in the manual of the Dayner, that it is possible somehow to make the "Line-in" work symmetric. I've already asked D&R for help, but unfortuantely, nobody knows how to do it. Does anyone of you have experience with this configuration? Why does it matter? Reason: I do have some "Soundmachines" that are too quiet at the moment, which means I need to turn the gain-pot to high. And I guess that if I could make the "Line-in" work symmectrial, I would not need to push the gain at the 3 o"clock position. No, whether the input is balanced or not has nothing to do with the level. If you have devices that produce a -10 level, you cannot plug them into a +4 input without a "bump box" or step-up transformer and get maximum levels. The Dayner has plenty of gain, though, so just turn the gain up. That's what it's for. Or does anybody see another possbility? #3: Is it possible to connect symmetrical sources to the patchbay? Sure. They will become unbalanced when attached to an unbalanced line, but that is often fine. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#3
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d&r dayner hookup problems
Hi,
I have a very similiar configuration (Dayner with 24 inline channels and a MOTU HD 192). I bought the console last month, and started now doing the connections to the MOTU. here are some of my experiences regarding question #1: IMHO you can't do "symmetrical" connections between the MOTU and the Dayner without encounting some strange behaviours. My first connection "trial" for the outputs on the MOTU was the following: MOTU XLR pin 1 (ground) - cable shield, not connected to the stereo jack on Dayner (to avoid ground loops) MOTU XLR pin 2 (hot) - ring stereo jack on Dayner (+4 dBu) MOTU XLR pin 3 (cold) - sleeve stereo jack on Dayner (audio ground on Dayner) What happened was that I had a low level signal from the MOTU on the monitors with even all mute switches activated! I can only explain this that the signal from pin 3 on the MOTU was in some kind modulating the audio ground of the console. So I did the following: MOTU XLR pin 1 (ground) - cable shield, again not connected to the stereo jack on Dayner + sleeve stereo jack on Dayner (audio ground on Dayner) MOTU XLR pin 2 (hot) - ring stereo jack on Dayner MOTU XLR pin 3 (cold) - not connected and everything worked as expected. You have of course to do an identical connection scheme for the inputs on the MOTU to have the in- and outcoming levels the same. Hope this helps, kind regards, Pierre |
#4
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d&r dayner hookup problems
On 29 Apr., 22:29, wrote:
Hi, I have a very similiar configuration (Dayner with 24 inline channels and a MOTU HD 192). I bought the console last month, and started now doing the connections to the MOTU. here are some of my experiences regarding question #1: IMHO you can't do "symmetrical" connections between the MOTU and the Dayner without encounting some strange behaviours. My first connection "trial" for the outputs on the MOTU was the following: MOTU XLR pin 1 (ground) - cable shield, not connected to the stereo jack on Dayner (to avoid ground loops) MOTU XLR pin 2 (hot) - ring stereo jack on Dayner (+4 dBu) MOTU XLR pin 3 (cold) - sleeve stereo jack on Dayner (audio ground on Dayner) What happened was that I had a low level signal from the MOTU on the monitors with even all mute switches activated! I can only explain this that the signal from pin 3 on the MOTU was in some kind modulating the audio ground of the console. So I did the following: MOTU XLR pin 1 (ground) - cable shield, again not connected to the stereo jack on Dayner + sleeve stereo jack on Dayner (audio ground on Dayner) MOTU XLR pin 2 (hot) - ring stereo jack on Dayner MOTU XLR pin 3 (cold) - not connected and everything worked as expected. You have of course to do an identical connection scheme for the inputs on the MOTU to have the in- and outcoming levels the same. Hope this helps, kind regards, Pierre hi, very much thanks about the fast answers. to you pierre; in my system, the motu out connection is as follows: hot on the ring on Dayner, cold and ground on the stereo jack ground at Dayner. This works fine. I have a master ground source with hf filters and different power circles for the audio and digital components. I spent a lot of time to eliminate ground loops and other problems like this. And now, it works perfect. i have do the following: i record something from the dayner into cubase. The signallevel, that returns on the dayner (tape return) was -1db. When i turn the trim pot (on the inline module; trim the tape send) on the 1 o"clock position, the levels are now the same. #2 symmetrical line in: i have a asymmetric signal from a submixer that i want a higher level. I want take a di-box to make it symmetrical. also the crm level output (control room out) is asymmetric. i want also make it symmetrical to connect my KRK V88 monitors. does anyone have a tip about a good di- box? greets sascha |
#5
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d&r dayner hookup problems
hi Sascha,
Very interesting your grounding system! How did you build the hf filters? Why do you want to use a DI for connecting your monitors to the console? Are you encountering problems doing it without? I don't use any DI and it works fine. I have some hum/buzz starting at the 3 o'clock position of my CRM pot, but that's already very loud and I don't monitor at such a level. Some words for the symmetrical mod of the line in's. I do own some Dayner split modules which have been modified in that way by using a transformer. As I bought them used, I don't know if the mod has been done by Dayner or by someone else. If you're interested in details, please let me know. greetings, Pierre |
#6
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d&r dayner hookup problems
On 30 Apr., 10:26, wrote:
hi Sascha, Very interesting your grounding system! How did you build the hf filters? Why do you want to use a DI for connecting your monitors to the console? Are you encountering problems doing it without? I don't use any DI and it works fine. I have some hum/buzz starting at the 3 o'clock position of my CRM pot, but that's already very loud and I don't monitor at such a level. Some words for the symmetrical mod of the line in's. I do own some Dayner split modules which have been modified in that way by using a transformer. As I bought them used, I don't know if the mod has been done by Dayner or by someone else. If you're interested in details, please let me know. greetings, Pierre Hello Pierre Thank you for your help. I have big trouble! In the past, my monitors are connected to the master outputs. in this way, everything works fine (zero hum or ground loops!). but now, when i plug it into the crm out, groundloops whithout a end!! and when i plug in the headphone amp in the aux 1+2 the desaster is perfect. it seems i have to redone the complete wiring. can you explain me exactly, how i connect the in and out to and from the motu (tape send to the motu in, tape return to the motu out)? I don"t understand completely your wiring example in the previous post: My first connection "trial" for the outputs on the MOTU was the following: MOTU XLR pin 1 (ground) - cable shield, not connected to the stereo jack on Dayner (to avoid ground loops) MOTU XLR pin 2 (hot) - ring stereo jack on Dayner (+4 dBu) MOTU XLR pin 3 (cold) - sleeve stereo jack on Dayner (audio ground on Dayner) What happened was that I had a low level signal from the MOTU on the monitors with even all mute switches activated! I can only explain this that the signal from pin 3 on the MOTU was in some kind modulating the audio ground of the console. So I did the following: MOTU XLR pin 1 (ground) - cable shield, again not connected to the stereo jack on Dayner + sleeve stereo jack on Dayner (audio ground on Dayner) MOTU XLR pin 2 (hot) - ring stereo jack on Dayner MOTU XLR pin 3 (cold) - not connected and everything worked as expected. What do you mean with: MOTU XLR pin 1 (ground) - cable shield, again not connected to the stereo jack on Dayner + sleeve stereo jack on Dayner (audio ground on Dayner) Is this solution the same for the tape send and tape return? please help! much greetings sascha |
#7
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d&r dayner hookup problems
hi Sascha,
I think the easiest way is doing some drawings, so that's what I did :-) I don't know if I can embed images here, so here's the link: http://www.mellowmatic.net/dayner/im...onnections.gif img src="http://www.mellowmatic.net/dayner/images/connections.gif" width="600" height="1000" On fig. 1 is shown my first try with the issues mentioned in my earlier post. On fig. 2 is shown the version which works. I have to say that I tried this only on the tape returns so far. For the tape sends it should work in the same way. Please notice that on the Dayner side the cable shield is not connected. Fig. 3 and 4 show the connection from the CRM out to the monitor amp / active speakers. Fig. 3 is for balanced inputs. I highly recommend this version if balanced inputs are available. Of course there are other options connecting an unbalanced output to a balanced input. But I often had good experiences with this one. Fig 4. shows the (only possible?) connection scheme for unbalanced inputs. I encountered hum with this one. But lifting the ground by the ground lift switch on the power amp made it work. (If your power amp / active speaker has only unbalanced inputs and no ground lift switch, there may be a problem.) again, I hope this helps... best wishes, Pierre |
#8
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d&r dayner hookup problems
On 6 Mai, 21:52, wrote:
hi Sascha, I think the easiest way is doing some drawings, so that's what I did :-) I don't know if I can embed images here, so here's the link:http://www.mellowmatic.net/dayner/im...onnections.gif img src="http://www.mellowmatic.net/dayner/images/connections.gif" width="600" height="1000" On fig. 1 is shown my first try with the issues mentioned in my earlier post. On fig. 2 is shown the version which works. I have to say that I tried this only on the tape returns so far. For the tape sends it should work in the same way. Please notice that on the Dayner side the cable shield is not connected. Fig. 3 and 4 show the connection from the CRM out to the monitor amp / active speakers. Fig. 3 is for balanced inputs. I highly recommend this version if balanced inputs are available. Of course there are other options connecting an unbalanced output to a balanced input. But I often had good experiences with this one. Fig 4. shows the (only possible?) connection scheme for unbalanced inputs. I encountered hum with this one. But lifting the ground by the ground lift switch on the power amp made it work. (If your power amp / active speaker has only unbalanced inputs and no ground lift switch, there may be a problem.) again, I hope this helps... best wishes, Pierre hello pierre you are a really great person! Thank you so much. The working diagram (fig.2) i don"t understand exactly. you must know, that on my motu 1224 the connectors are jack. my interpretation of this drawing is as follows: Pin 1 shield is not connected, but another cable that is aligned with the shield is connected to the dayner jack sleeve. What is the difference between pin1 in drawing 1 and pin1 in drawing 2?? what do you mean with the wiring from pin 1 in fig.2? very much and friendly thanks sascha |
#9
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d&r dayner hookup problems
hi Sascha,
many thanks for the "great person" :-) I just want to help. Dayner users must stick together! I did 2 more drawings which I think will clear things up: http://www.mellowmatic.net/dayner/im...nnections2.gif Fig. 5 shows the schematic representation of a symmetrical cable, which I used for all the drawings. Everything in black (lower line + the 2 squashed circles) is the cable shield, the blue and red lines are the 2 wires inside. Fig. 6 shows the working version, the upper drawing is for stereo jack, the lower the corresponding one for XLR (like fig. 2). - The ground on Motu (sleeve on jack, pin 1 on XLR ) is connected to the cable shield but also to one of the wires. On the Dayner side only the wire is connected to the sleeve. - "Hot" on Motu (tip on jack, pin 2 on XLR ) is connected to the other wire, which connects to the ring of the dayner jack. - "Cold" on Motu isn't connected at all. Some general words: you said that the problems started when connecting something to the CRM out. I would leave the connections to the Motu alone and focus on the connections on the CRM out. Your KRK V88 monitors have balanced inputs, so try the connection scheme on fig. 3. I did it this way and it helped me a lot! and again: I hope this helps greetings, Pierre Dayner users must stick together! :-) |
#10
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d&r dayner hookup problems
On 7 Mai, 22:20, mellowmatic wrote:
hi Sascha, many thanks for the "great person" :-) I just want to help. Dayner users must stick together! I did 2 more drawings which I think will clear things up:http://www.mellowmatic.net/dayner/im...nnections2.gif Fig. 5 shows the schematic representation of a symmetrical cable, which I used for all the drawings. Everything in black (lower line + the 2 squashed circles) is the cable shield, the blue and red lines are the 2 wires inside. Fig. 6 shows the working version, the upper drawing is for stereo jack, the lower the corresponding one for XLR (like fig. 2). - The ground on Motu (sleeve on jack, pin 1 on XLR ) is connected to the cable shield but also to one of the wires. On the Dayner side only the wire is connected to the sleeve. - "Hot" on Motu (tip on jack, pin 2 on XLR ) is connected to the other wire, which connects to the ring of the dayner jack. - "Cold" on Motu isn't connected at all. Some general words: you said that the problems started when connecting something to the CRM out. I would leave the connections to the Motu alone and focus on the connections on the CRM out. Your KRK V88 monitors have balanced inputs, so try the connection scheme on fig. 3. I did it this way and it helped me a lot! and again: I hope this helps greetings, Pierre Dayner users must stick together! :-) Dear Pierre I try your version, but the result is that the ground loop say hello! My wiring that works is as follows: motu hot (tip) to dayner hot (ring), motu cold (ring) to dayner sleeve, motu sleeve (not connected) to dayner sleeve. The only problem by this solution is, that the signal is 6db to loud! But at this way i had absolutely no hum and noise. At this configuration i can push 32 fader to the "0" position and pull my monitors on the max and all i can hear is a basic "hiss" (very quiet!) and no hum. Is there an alternative, that i can reduce the level whithout hum? And is it normal, when the tape return comes in with 0db and the tape send put the signal out with -6db? I don"t understand this. Can you explain me that? thanks for your feedback Sascha Dayner users get worked.......................... greetings and good night |
#11
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d&r dayner hookup problems
hi Sascha,
what happens if you disconnect the ring on Motu? greetings, Pierre |
#12
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d&r dayner hookup problems
On 8 Mai, 08:40, mellowmatic wrote:
hi Sascha, what happens if you disconnect the ring on Motu? greetings, Pierre hi pierre when i disconnect the ring a loud hum is the answer. i have"d try all possibilities, and the only that work is the example from my previous post. The only chance i can see is the level from the motu to decrease. but this is not the best solution. i will write when the wiring is completed! greetings sascha |
#13
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d&r dayner hookup problems
wrote in message ... On 8 Mai, 08:40, mellowmatic wrote: hi Sascha, what happens if you disconnect the ring on Motu? greetings, Pierre hi pierre when i disconnect the ring a loud hum is the answer. i have"d try all possibilities, and the only that work is the example from my previous post. The only chance i can see is the level from the motu to decrease. but this is not the best solution. i will write when the wiring is completed! greetings sascha If I am not sadly mistaken, all 1/4" channel I/O's on the Dayner are two-conductor (unbalanced) plus 4, with the exception of the control room outs. Your initial grounding system and wiring appeared to be correct, but I lost track of where your level mismatch was ocurring. perhaps a simple calibration of the console metering to match the MOTU level indicators is needed. DM (feel free to tell me that I am sadly mistaken ;-) -- David Morgan (MAMS) Morgan Audio Media Service http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901 _____________________________ http://www.januarysound.com |
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