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  #81   Report Post  
Colin B.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

Bob Saccamano wrote:

Audio is one of those areas where there are so many mistruths, myths and
emotions floating around, that all you can trust, and probably should, is
your own ears. If *you* think it sounds better, then it does.


It depends on how you define "sounds better." If you mean that it
makes you happier, then go for it. If you mean that the sound you hear
is materially changed, then it's a very simple matter to measure and
quantify it. If it's not measurable, it ain't there.

Colin
  #82   Report Post  
flint
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?


"Colin B." wrote in message
...
Bob Saccamano wrote:

Audio is one of those areas where there are so many mistruths, myths and
emotions floating around, that all you can trust, and probably should,

is
your own ears. If *you* think it sounds better, then it does.


It depends on how you define "sounds better." If you mean that it
makes you happier, then go for it. If you mean that the sound you hear
is materially changed, then it's a very simple matter to measure and
quantify it. If it's not measurable, it ain't there.

Colin


Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that bi-wiring
doesn't do anything.

- FLINT


  #83   Report Post  
flint
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?


"Colin B." wrote in message
...
Bob Saccamano wrote:

Audio is one of those areas where there are so many mistruths, myths and
emotions floating around, that all you can trust, and probably should,

is
your own ears. If *you* think it sounds better, then it does.


It depends on how you define "sounds better." If you mean that it
makes you happier, then go for it. If you mean that the sound you hear
is materially changed, then it's a very simple matter to measure and
quantify it. If it's not measurable, it ain't there.

Colin


Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that bi-wiring
doesn't do anything.

- FLINT


  #84   Report Post  
flint
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?


"Colin B." wrote in message
...
Bob Saccamano wrote:

Audio is one of those areas where there are so many mistruths, myths and
emotions floating around, that all you can trust, and probably should,

is
your own ears. If *you* think it sounds better, then it does.


It depends on how you define "sounds better." If you mean that it
makes you happier, then go for it. If you mean that the sound you hear
is materially changed, then it's a very simple matter to measure and
quantify it. If it's not measurable, it ain't there.

Colin


Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that bi-wiring
doesn't do anything.

- FLINT


  #85   Report Post  
flint
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?


"Colin B." wrote in message
...
Bob Saccamano wrote:

Audio is one of those areas where there are so many mistruths, myths and
emotions floating around, that all you can trust, and probably should,

is
your own ears. If *you* think it sounds better, then it does.


It depends on how you define "sounds better." If you mean that it
makes you happier, then go for it. If you mean that the sound you hear
is materially changed, then it's a very simple matter to measure and
quantify it. If it's not measurable, it ain't there.

Colin


Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that bi-wiring
doesn't do anything.

- FLINT




  #86   Report Post  
Don Pearce
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:29:37 GMT, "flint"
wrote:

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Really? Eratosthenes has already measured the diameter of the Earth
pretty accurately in the third century BC. And well before that the
curvature was known and estimated - albeit approximately.

Of course the flat earthers are still out there. There are plenty to
be found in the land of high-end audio.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com
  #87   Report Post  
Don Pearce
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:29:37 GMT, "flint"
wrote:

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Really? Eratosthenes has already measured the diameter of the Earth
pretty accurately in the third century BC. And well before that the
curvature was known and estimated - albeit approximately.

Of course the flat earthers are still out there. There are plenty to
be found in the land of high-end audio.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com
  #88   Report Post  
Don Pearce
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:29:37 GMT, "flint"
wrote:

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Really? Eratosthenes has already measured the diameter of the Earth
pretty accurately in the third century BC. And well before that the
curvature was known and estimated - albeit approximately.

Of course the flat earthers are still out there. There are plenty to
be found in the land of high-end audio.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com
  #89   Report Post  
Don Pearce
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:29:37 GMT, "flint"
wrote:

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Really? Eratosthenes has already measured the diameter of the Earth
pretty accurately in the third century BC. And well before that the
curvature was known and estimated - albeit approximately.

Of course the flat earthers are still out there. There are plenty to
be found in the land of high-end audio.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com
  #90   Report Post  
flint
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:29:37 GMT, "flint"
wrote:

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Really? Eratosthenes has already measured the diameter of the Earth
pretty accurately in the third century BC. And well before that the
curvature was known and estimated - albeit approximately.

Of course the flat earthers are still out there. There are plenty to
be found in the land of high-end audio.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com


The Arabs were almost right on the money when they calculated the
circumference of the Earth, but you are right about Eratosthenes. However,
my argument still holds that simply not being able to measure something is a
poor argument for something not being there.

- FLINT




  #91   Report Post  
flint
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:29:37 GMT, "flint"
wrote:

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Really? Eratosthenes has already measured the diameter of the Earth
pretty accurately in the third century BC. And well before that the
curvature was known and estimated - albeit approximately.

Of course the flat earthers are still out there. There are plenty to
be found in the land of high-end audio.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com


The Arabs were almost right on the money when they calculated the
circumference of the Earth, but you are right about Eratosthenes. However,
my argument still holds that simply not being able to measure something is a
poor argument for something not being there.

- FLINT


  #92   Report Post  
flint
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:29:37 GMT, "flint"
wrote:

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Really? Eratosthenes has already measured the diameter of the Earth
pretty accurately in the third century BC. And well before that the
curvature was known and estimated - albeit approximately.

Of course the flat earthers are still out there. There are plenty to
be found in the land of high-end audio.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com


The Arabs were almost right on the money when they calculated the
circumference of the Earth, but you are right about Eratosthenes. However,
my argument still holds that simply not being able to measure something is a
poor argument for something not being there.

- FLINT


  #93   Report Post  
flint
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:29:37 GMT, "flint"
wrote:

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Really? Eratosthenes has already measured the diameter of the Earth
pretty accurately in the third century BC. And well before that the
curvature was known and estimated - albeit approximately.

Of course the flat earthers are still out there. There are plenty to
be found in the land of high-end audio.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com


The Arabs were almost right on the money when they calculated the
circumference of the Earth, but you are right about Eratosthenes. However,
my argument still holds that simply not being able to measure something is a
poor argument for something not being there.

- FLINT


  #94   Report Post  
Don Pearce
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:39:18 GMT, "flint"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:29:37 GMT, "flint"
wrote:

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Really? Eratosthenes has already measured the diameter of the Earth
pretty accurately in the third century BC. And well before that the
curvature was known and estimated - albeit approximately.

Of course the flat earthers are still out there. There are plenty to
be found in the land of high-end audio.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com


The Arabs were almost right on the money when they calculated the
circumference of the Earth, but you are right about Eratosthenes. However,
my argument still holds that simply not being able to measure something is a
poor argument for something not being there.

- FLINT

I think the point is that as soon as anybody knew there was something
(earth's diameter) that needed measuring, they set about doing it and
pretty soon got close. In audio, the differences that supposedly exist
often magically go away as soon as you do anything that looks even
halfway objective. And they vanish totally when a measurement happens.
It is not that they are there, but not measurable, but they are not
measurable because they are figments.

You can bet that if the world was in fact flat, but some people had
suggested it was round, the measurements would have happened just as
quickly, and verified the flatness just as quickly. Absence of
measurements supporting differences is a good indication that they are
in all probability not there.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com
  #95   Report Post  
Don Pearce
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:39:18 GMT, "flint"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:29:37 GMT, "flint"
wrote:

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Really? Eratosthenes has already measured the diameter of the Earth
pretty accurately in the third century BC. And well before that the
curvature was known and estimated - albeit approximately.

Of course the flat earthers are still out there. There are plenty to
be found in the land of high-end audio.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com


The Arabs were almost right on the money when they calculated the
circumference of the Earth, but you are right about Eratosthenes. However,
my argument still holds that simply not being able to measure something is a
poor argument for something not being there.

- FLINT

I think the point is that as soon as anybody knew there was something
(earth's diameter) that needed measuring, they set about doing it and
pretty soon got close. In audio, the differences that supposedly exist
often magically go away as soon as you do anything that looks even
halfway objective. And they vanish totally when a measurement happens.
It is not that they are there, but not measurable, but they are not
measurable because they are figments.

You can bet that if the world was in fact flat, but some people had
suggested it was round, the measurements would have happened just as
quickly, and verified the flatness just as quickly. Absence of
measurements supporting differences is a good indication that they are
in all probability not there.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com


  #96   Report Post  
Don Pearce
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:39:18 GMT, "flint"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:29:37 GMT, "flint"
wrote:

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Really? Eratosthenes has already measured the diameter of the Earth
pretty accurately in the third century BC. And well before that the
curvature was known and estimated - albeit approximately.

Of course the flat earthers are still out there. There are plenty to
be found in the land of high-end audio.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com


The Arabs were almost right on the money when they calculated the
circumference of the Earth, but you are right about Eratosthenes. However,
my argument still holds that simply not being able to measure something is a
poor argument for something not being there.

- FLINT

I think the point is that as soon as anybody knew there was something
(earth's diameter) that needed measuring, they set about doing it and
pretty soon got close. In audio, the differences that supposedly exist
often magically go away as soon as you do anything that looks even
halfway objective. And they vanish totally when a measurement happens.
It is not that they are there, but not measurable, but they are not
measurable because they are figments.

You can bet that if the world was in fact flat, but some people had
suggested it was round, the measurements would have happened just as
quickly, and verified the flatness just as quickly. Absence of
measurements supporting differences is a good indication that they are
in all probability not there.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com
  #97   Report Post  
Don Pearce
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:39:18 GMT, "flint"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:29:37 GMT, "flint"
wrote:

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Really? Eratosthenes has already measured the diameter of the Earth
pretty accurately in the third century BC. And well before that the
curvature was known and estimated - albeit approximately.

Of course the flat earthers are still out there. There are plenty to
be found in the land of high-end audio.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com


The Arabs were almost right on the money when they calculated the
circumference of the Earth, but you are right about Eratosthenes. However,
my argument still holds that simply not being able to measure something is a
poor argument for something not being there.

- FLINT

I think the point is that as soon as anybody knew there was something
(earth's diameter) that needed measuring, they set about doing it and
pretty soon got close. In audio, the differences that supposedly exist
often magically go away as soon as you do anything that looks even
halfway objective. And they vanish totally when a measurement happens.
It is not that they are there, but not measurable, but they are not
measurable because they are figments.

You can bet that if the world was in fact flat, but some people had
suggested it was round, the measurements would have happened just as
quickly, and verified the flatness just as quickly. Absence of
measurements supporting differences is a good indication that they are
in all probability not there.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com
  #98   Report Post  
afh3
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

"flint" wrote in message
...

Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that

bi-wiring
doesn't do anything.

- FLINT



Here is my attempt at the "good logical argument."

It's called the application of Kirchoff's laws.

Since the bi-wired speakers ultimately connect to the same set of output
terminals on the voltage source (amplifier/receiver/whatever) all of the
points on both pairs of conductors will be at the same electrical
potential at any one point in time.

Excluding the negligible resistance of the conductors (if you are using 300
feet of 28 gauge wire for your speakers, you've got bigger problems than
thinking that bi-wiring makes a difference) it doesn't matter if you use
one, two, or forty-eight pairs of wires between the same set of output
terminals and your speakers -- they'll all be coincidently connected and at
the exact same electrical potential and therefore make no difference.

Essentially, all bi-wiring is doing is moving the shunt-block from the back
of the speaker to the back of the amplifier. If this makes a difference in
the sound, there is a problem with one or more of your speaker wires.

If you want to make use of separate speaker input terminals, get a pair (or
six or forty-eight) amplifiers and drive each one with the output from an
electronic cross-over that is tuned to bandwidth-limit it's output to match
the effective range of the driver being excited, then -- as long as each
circuit shares no common output-to-input conductors -- you have created a
system that can isolate the reactive loads presented by each of the
individual drivers.

Opinion

Of course, with this approach you now you have cross-amplifier
volume-adjustment linearity and level-matching issues that may make the
final result less accurate than the single-source/single amplifier solution.

/Opinion

Do what sounds best, but don't expect physics to make an exception for a
bi-wired configuration just because somebody said it would make a
difference.

-afh3


  #99   Report Post  
afh3
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

"flint" wrote in message
...

Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that

bi-wiring
doesn't do anything.

- FLINT



Here is my attempt at the "good logical argument."

It's called the application of Kirchoff's laws.

Since the bi-wired speakers ultimately connect to the same set of output
terminals on the voltage source (amplifier/receiver/whatever) all of the
points on both pairs of conductors will be at the same electrical
potential at any one point in time.

Excluding the negligible resistance of the conductors (if you are using 300
feet of 28 gauge wire for your speakers, you've got bigger problems than
thinking that bi-wiring makes a difference) it doesn't matter if you use
one, two, or forty-eight pairs of wires between the same set of output
terminals and your speakers -- they'll all be coincidently connected and at
the exact same electrical potential and therefore make no difference.

Essentially, all bi-wiring is doing is moving the shunt-block from the back
of the speaker to the back of the amplifier. If this makes a difference in
the sound, there is a problem with one or more of your speaker wires.

If you want to make use of separate speaker input terminals, get a pair (or
six or forty-eight) amplifiers and drive each one with the output from an
electronic cross-over that is tuned to bandwidth-limit it's output to match
the effective range of the driver being excited, then -- as long as each
circuit shares no common output-to-input conductors -- you have created a
system that can isolate the reactive loads presented by each of the
individual drivers.

Opinion

Of course, with this approach you now you have cross-amplifier
volume-adjustment linearity and level-matching issues that may make the
final result less accurate than the single-source/single amplifier solution.

/Opinion

Do what sounds best, but don't expect physics to make an exception for a
bi-wired configuration just because somebody said it would make a
difference.

-afh3


  #100   Report Post  
afh3
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

"flint" wrote in message
...

Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that

bi-wiring
doesn't do anything.

- FLINT



Here is my attempt at the "good logical argument."

It's called the application of Kirchoff's laws.

Since the bi-wired speakers ultimately connect to the same set of output
terminals on the voltage source (amplifier/receiver/whatever) all of the
points on both pairs of conductors will be at the same electrical
potential at any one point in time.

Excluding the negligible resistance of the conductors (if you are using 300
feet of 28 gauge wire for your speakers, you've got bigger problems than
thinking that bi-wiring makes a difference) it doesn't matter if you use
one, two, or forty-eight pairs of wires between the same set of output
terminals and your speakers -- they'll all be coincidently connected and at
the exact same electrical potential and therefore make no difference.

Essentially, all bi-wiring is doing is moving the shunt-block from the back
of the speaker to the back of the amplifier. If this makes a difference in
the sound, there is a problem with one or more of your speaker wires.

If you want to make use of separate speaker input terminals, get a pair (or
six or forty-eight) amplifiers and drive each one with the output from an
electronic cross-over that is tuned to bandwidth-limit it's output to match
the effective range of the driver being excited, then -- as long as each
circuit shares no common output-to-input conductors -- you have created a
system that can isolate the reactive loads presented by each of the
individual drivers.

Opinion

Of course, with this approach you now you have cross-amplifier
volume-adjustment linearity and level-matching issues that may make the
final result less accurate than the single-source/single amplifier solution.

/Opinion

Do what sounds best, but don't expect physics to make an exception for a
bi-wired configuration just because somebody said it would make a
difference.

-afh3




  #101   Report Post  
afh3
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

"flint" wrote in message
...

Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that

bi-wiring
doesn't do anything.

- FLINT



Here is my attempt at the "good logical argument."

It's called the application of Kirchoff's laws.

Since the bi-wired speakers ultimately connect to the same set of output
terminals on the voltage source (amplifier/receiver/whatever) all of the
points on both pairs of conductors will be at the same electrical
potential at any one point in time.

Excluding the negligible resistance of the conductors (if you are using 300
feet of 28 gauge wire for your speakers, you've got bigger problems than
thinking that bi-wiring makes a difference) it doesn't matter if you use
one, two, or forty-eight pairs of wires between the same set of output
terminals and your speakers -- they'll all be coincidently connected and at
the exact same electrical potential and therefore make no difference.

Essentially, all bi-wiring is doing is moving the shunt-block from the back
of the speaker to the back of the amplifier. If this makes a difference in
the sound, there is a problem with one or more of your speaker wires.

If you want to make use of separate speaker input terminals, get a pair (or
six or forty-eight) amplifiers and drive each one with the output from an
electronic cross-over that is tuned to bandwidth-limit it's output to match
the effective range of the driver being excited, then -- as long as each
circuit shares no common output-to-input conductors -- you have created a
system that can isolate the reactive loads presented by each of the
individual drivers.

Opinion

Of course, with this approach you now you have cross-amplifier
volume-adjustment linearity and level-matching issues that may make the
final result less accurate than the single-source/single amplifier solution.

/Opinion

Do what sounds best, but don't expect physics to make an exception for a
bi-wired configuration just because somebody said it would make a
difference.

-afh3


  #102   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

"flint" wrote in message



Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.


Remember this is the 21st century. Arguments based on the previous
millennium are declared obsolete.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of
the Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that
mean the world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Obsolete argument.

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that
bi-wiring doesn't do anything.


Wrong, that would be an attempt to prove a negative, which is always
difficult or impossible. No, the challenge has to be turned around. We need
a good logical argument or well-done listening test that shows that
bi-wiring does something worthwhile, or at least barely audible.

Bi-wiring doesn't do nothing, it merely does very little. We know exactly
what it does, and that can easily be compared to what we know about the
audibility of Just Noticeable Differences. Unless the speaker wire is so
small that its stupid, whatever biwiring does is too small to matter.


  #103   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

"flint" wrote in message



Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.


Remember this is the 21st century. Arguments based on the previous
millennium are declared obsolete.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of
the Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that
mean the world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Obsolete argument.

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that
bi-wiring doesn't do anything.


Wrong, that would be an attempt to prove a negative, which is always
difficult or impossible. No, the challenge has to be turned around. We need
a good logical argument or well-done listening test that shows that
bi-wiring does something worthwhile, or at least barely audible.

Bi-wiring doesn't do nothing, it merely does very little. We know exactly
what it does, and that can easily be compared to what we know about the
audibility of Just Noticeable Differences. Unless the speaker wire is so
small that its stupid, whatever biwiring does is too small to matter.


  #104   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

"flint" wrote in message



Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.


Remember this is the 21st century. Arguments based on the previous
millennium are declared obsolete.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of
the Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that
mean the world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Obsolete argument.

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that
bi-wiring doesn't do anything.


Wrong, that would be an attempt to prove a negative, which is always
difficult or impossible. No, the challenge has to be turned around. We need
a good logical argument or well-done listening test that shows that
bi-wiring does something worthwhile, or at least barely audible.

Bi-wiring doesn't do nothing, it merely does very little. We know exactly
what it does, and that can easily be compared to what we know about the
audibility of Just Noticeable Differences. Unless the speaker wire is so
small that its stupid, whatever biwiring does is too small to matter.


  #105   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

"flint" wrote in message



Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.


Remember this is the 21st century. Arguments based on the previous
millennium are declared obsolete.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of
the Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that
mean the world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


Obsolete argument.

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that
bi-wiring doesn't do anything.


Wrong, that would be an attempt to prove a negative, which is always
difficult or impossible. No, the challenge has to be turned around. We need
a good logical argument or well-done listening test that shows that
bi-wiring does something worthwhile, or at least barely audible.

Bi-wiring doesn't do nothing, it merely does very little. We know exactly
what it does, and that can easily be compared to what we know about the
audibility of Just Noticeable Differences. Unless the speaker wire is so
small that its stupid, whatever biwiring does is too small to matter.




  #106   Report Post  
Colin B.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

flint wrote:

"Colin B." wrote in message
...
Bob Saccamano wrote:

Audio is one of those areas where there are so many mistruths, myths and
emotions floating around, that all you can trust, and probably should,

is
your own ears. If *you* think it sounds better, then it does.


It depends on how you define "sounds better." If you mean that it
makes you happier, then go for it. If you mean that the sound you hear
is materially changed, then it's a very simple matter to measure and
quantify it. If it's not measurable, it ain't there.

Colin


Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.


Be careful of how far you extend my comments. We are speaking within a
specific context here.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


That's a straw man argument. If they had reliably discovered the method
of measuring planetary curvature, proven that it was correct, and then
measured the planet to be flat, then they probably would have been right.
(and we would be living in a VERY different universe!)

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that bi-wiring
doesn't do anything.


OK, how's this? We know how variations in a signal are detected by
hearing, in controlled tests. We can measure signal differences to
several orders of magnitude below the various hearing thresholds.
If measurements show no change to the signal, or a change WELL below
the hearing threshold, we can conclude that there will be no difference.
If someone would argue differently, then it's easily resolved: Controlled
listening tests. Listening in an environment where there's no ability
to bias the results. Time and time and time again, test like this have
confirmed our knowledge of signal transfer and hearing. We've done the
science. It all corresponds. Measuring audible and inaudible effects is
old hat.

Look at it from another perspective: If hearing is caused by the eardrum
vibrating, then measuring the changes in the signal going to the speaker
that causes that eardrum to vibrate is all we need to do to debug the
electronics chain.

It's not a matter of not being able to measure it. We CAN measure it,
we HAVE measured it, and endless tests have CONFIRMED it.

Colin
  #107   Report Post  
Colin B.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

flint wrote:

"Colin B." wrote in message
...
Bob Saccamano wrote:

Audio is one of those areas where there are so many mistruths, myths and
emotions floating around, that all you can trust, and probably should,

is
your own ears. If *you* think it sounds better, then it does.


It depends on how you define "sounds better." If you mean that it
makes you happier, then go for it. If you mean that the sound you hear
is materially changed, then it's a very simple matter to measure and
quantify it. If it's not measurable, it ain't there.

Colin


Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.


Be careful of how far you extend my comments. We are speaking within a
specific context here.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


That's a straw man argument. If they had reliably discovered the method
of measuring planetary curvature, proven that it was correct, and then
measured the planet to be flat, then they probably would have been right.
(and we would be living in a VERY different universe!)

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that bi-wiring
doesn't do anything.


OK, how's this? We know how variations in a signal are detected by
hearing, in controlled tests. We can measure signal differences to
several orders of magnitude below the various hearing thresholds.
If measurements show no change to the signal, or a change WELL below
the hearing threshold, we can conclude that there will be no difference.
If someone would argue differently, then it's easily resolved: Controlled
listening tests. Listening in an environment where there's no ability
to bias the results. Time and time and time again, test like this have
confirmed our knowledge of signal transfer and hearing. We've done the
science. It all corresponds. Measuring audible and inaudible effects is
old hat.

Look at it from another perspective: If hearing is caused by the eardrum
vibrating, then measuring the changes in the signal going to the speaker
that causes that eardrum to vibrate is all we need to do to debug the
electronics chain.

It's not a matter of not being able to measure it. We CAN measure it,
we HAVE measured it, and endless tests have CONFIRMED it.

Colin
  #108   Report Post  
Colin B.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

flint wrote:

"Colin B." wrote in message
...
Bob Saccamano wrote:

Audio is one of those areas where there are so many mistruths, myths and
emotions floating around, that all you can trust, and probably should,

is
your own ears. If *you* think it sounds better, then it does.


It depends on how you define "sounds better." If you mean that it
makes you happier, then go for it. If you mean that the sound you hear
is materially changed, then it's a very simple matter to measure and
quantify it. If it's not measurable, it ain't there.

Colin


Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.


Be careful of how far you extend my comments. We are speaking within a
specific context here.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


That's a straw man argument. If they had reliably discovered the method
of measuring planetary curvature, proven that it was correct, and then
measured the planet to be flat, then they probably would have been right.
(and we would be living in a VERY different universe!)

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that bi-wiring
doesn't do anything.


OK, how's this? We know how variations in a signal are detected by
hearing, in controlled tests. We can measure signal differences to
several orders of magnitude below the various hearing thresholds.
If measurements show no change to the signal, or a change WELL below
the hearing threshold, we can conclude that there will be no difference.
If someone would argue differently, then it's easily resolved: Controlled
listening tests. Listening in an environment where there's no ability
to bias the results. Time and time and time again, test like this have
confirmed our knowledge of signal transfer and hearing. We've done the
science. It all corresponds. Measuring audible and inaudible effects is
old hat.

Look at it from another perspective: If hearing is caused by the eardrum
vibrating, then measuring the changes in the signal going to the speaker
that causes that eardrum to vibrate is all we need to do to debug the
electronics chain.

It's not a matter of not being able to measure it. We CAN measure it,
we HAVE measured it, and endless tests have CONFIRMED it.

Colin
  #109   Report Post  
Colin B.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

flint wrote:

"Colin B." wrote in message
...
Bob Saccamano wrote:

Audio is one of those areas where there are so many mistruths, myths and
emotions floating around, that all you can trust, and probably should,

is
your own ears. If *you* think it sounds better, then it does.


It depends on how you define "sounds better." If you mean that it
makes you happier, then go for it. If you mean that the sound you hear
is materially changed, then it's a very simple matter to measure and
quantify it. If it's not measurable, it ain't there.

Colin


Though I agree with the premise about bi-wiring, the idea that nothing
exists that cannot be measured is dead wrong.


Be careful of how far you extend my comments. We are speaking within a
specific context here.

Humans didn't have the ability to measure the curve of the surface of the
Earth until the Arabs did it in the early dark ages. Does that mean the
world was flat until they figured out how to measure it???


That's a straw man argument. If they had reliably discovered the method
of measuring planetary curvature, proven that it was correct, and then
measured the planet to be flat, then they probably would have been right.
(and we would be living in a VERY different universe!)

We need to present a good logical argument to defend the fact that bi-wiring
doesn't do anything.


OK, how's this? We know how variations in a signal are detected by
hearing, in controlled tests. We can measure signal differences to
several orders of magnitude below the various hearing thresholds.
If measurements show no change to the signal, or a change WELL below
the hearing threshold, we can conclude that there will be no difference.
If someone would argue differently, then it's easily resolved: Controlled
listening tests. Listening in an environment where there's no ability
to bias the results. Time and time and time again, test like this have
confirmed our knowledge of signal transfer and hearing. We've done the
science. It all corresponds. Measuring audible and inaudible effects is
old hat.

Look at it from another perspective: If hearing is caused by the eardrum
vibrating, then measuring the changes in the signal going to the speaker
that causes that eardrum to vibrate is all we need to do to debug the
electronics chain.

It's not a matter of not being able to measure it. We CAN measure it,
we HAVE measured it, and endless tests have CONFIRMED it.

Colin
  #110   Report Post  
Colin B.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

flint wrote:

The Arabs were almost right on the money when they calculated the
circumference of the Earth, but you are right about Eratosthenes. However,
my argument still holds that simply not being able to measure something is a
poor argument for something not being there.


I'll just sum up my previous long-winded article again he

In the field of audio, we ARE able to measure everything in a signal
that's audible, and can measure all of it to levels far below audibility.
That's why if we don't measure a deviation in the signal, we can say
with confidence that there's no audible difference.

Colin


  #111   Report Post  
Colin B.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

flint wrote:

The Arabs were almost right on the money when they calculated the
circumference of the Earth, but you are right about Eratosthenes. However,
my argument still holds that simply not being able to measure something is a
poor argument for something not being there.


I'll just sum up my previous long-winded article again he

In the field of audio, we ARE able to measure everything in a signal
that's audible, and can measure all of it to levels far below audibility.
That's why if we don't measure a deviation in the signal, we can say
with confidence that there's no audible difference.

Colin
  #112   Report Post  
Colin B.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

flint wrote:

The Arabs were almost right on the money when they calculated the
circumference of the Earth, but you are right about Eratosthenes. However,
my argument still holds that simply not being able to measure something is a
poor argument for something not being there.


I'll just sum up my previous long-winded article again he

In the field of audio, we ARE able to measure everything in a signal
that's audible, and can measure all of it to levels far below audibility.
That's why if we don't measure a deviation in the signal, we can say
with confidence that there's no audible difference.

Colin
  #113   Report Post  
Colin B.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

flint wrote:

The Arabs were almost right on the money when they calculated the
circumference of the Earth, but you are right about Eratosthenes. However,
my argument still holds that simply not being able to measure something is a
poor argument for something not being there.


I'll just sum up my previous long-winded article again he

In the field of audio, we ARE able to measure everything in a signal
that's audible, and can measure all of it to levels far below audibility.
That's why if we don't measure a deviation in the signal, we can say
with confidence that there's no audible difference.

Colin
  #114   Report Post  
Bob Saccamano
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

To those who are technically informed, there is consensus.

You decide.


So tell me, how does one determine those that are technically informed? :-)


  #115   Report Post  
Bob Saccamano
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

To those who are technically informed, there is consensus.

You decide.


So tell me, how does one determine those that are technically informed? :-)




  #116   Report Post  
Bob Saccamano
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

To those who are technically informed, there is consensus.

You decide.


So tell me, how does one determine those that are technically informed? :-)


  #117   Report Post  
Bob Saccamano
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

To those who are technically informed, there is consensus.

You decide.


So tell me, how does one determine those that are technically informed? :-)


  #118   Report Post  
Laurence Payne
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:39:18 GMT, "flint"
wrote:

The Arabs were almost right on the money when they calculated the
circumference of the Earth, but you are right about Eratosthenes. However,
my argument still holds that simply not being able to measure something is a
poor argument for something not being there.


Did the Arabs invent a revolutionary new tool to make the measurement?
Or did they choose to interpret previously available data and
observations in a fresh way?

Once you admit the world MIGHT be round, it's not too hard to find
supporting observations.
  #119   Report Post  
Laurence Payne
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:39:18 GMT, "flint"
wrote:

The Arabs were almost right on the money when they calculated the
circumference of the Earth, but you are right about Eratosthenes. However,
my argument still holds that simply not being able to measure something is a
poor argument for something not being there.


Did the Arabs invent a revolutionary new tool to make the measurement?
Or did they choose to interpret previously available data and
observations in a fresh way?

Once you admit the world MIGHT be round, it's not too hard to find
supporting observations.
  #120   Report Post  
Laurence Payne
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bi-wiring - Hogwash?

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:39:18 GMT, "flint"
wrote:

The Arabs were almost right on the money when they calculated the
circumference of the Earth, but you are right about Eratosthenes. However,
my argument still holds that simply not being able to measure something is a
poor argument for something not being there.


Did the Arabs invent a revolutionary new tool to make the measurement?
Or did they choose to interpret previously available data and
observations in a fresh way?

Once you admit the world MIGHT be round, it's not too hard to find
supporting observations.
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