What is the difference in sound/quality between the Shure SM57 and the SM58?
I'm looking for a versatile mic that sound clear, crisp, warm, and bright
mainly on vocals and acoustic guitar. But it should also sound decent for
other uses (electric guitar amps, drums, etc.).

Should I beware of extensions on the model such as LC for the SM57LC
(http://www.zzounds.com/item--SHUSM57LC) and SM58LC
(http://www.zzounds.com/item--SHUSM58LC)? Or are these the standard Shure SM
models that everyone talks about? Thank you for any help.

Steve

In article . net,
"Steve" wrote:

What is the difference in sound/quality between the Shure SM57 and the SM58?
I'm looking for a versatile mic that sound clear, crisp, warm, and bright
mainly on vocals and acoustic guitar. But it should also sound decent for
other uses (electric guitar amps, drums, etc.).

Should I beware of extensions on the model such as LC for the SM57LC
(http://www.zzounds.com/item--SHUSM57LC) and SM58LC
(http://www.zzounds.com/item--SHUSM58LC)? Or are these the standard Shure SM
models that everyone talks about? Thank you for any help.

Steve



lc=less cable
s=switch
consider the beta 57a as the best dynamic mic shure is making for the
uses expressed
George

"Steve" wrote in message
ink.net...
What is the difference in sound/quality between the Shure SM57 and the
SM58?
I'm looking for a versatile mic that sound clear, crisp, warm, and bright
mainly on vocals and acoustic guitar. But it should also sound decent for
other uses (electric guitar amps, drums, etc.).


It would be a good idea to try both of them before you buy. Listen them
yourself and you'll get a much better idea about their characteristics than
you get from anyone's writing here!

However, 57 has a slight boost in the upper mids, giving it a crisp and
clear sound.
I think it sounds good on many vocals. SM58 also is a true workhorse, and a
live vocal(sometimes studio also)mic of choice for many professional
singers.
58 has a foam ball inside it which is essentially working as a pop shield
itself.

57 is THE industry standard for electric guitar amp/snare mic, it's
difficult to go wrong with it on those cases.
I know it's a tough decision if you have a limited budget, but my advice
would be to buy 57 first, and when you can afford the other one, then also
the 58!

"George" wrote in message
...
In article . net,
"Steve" wrote:

What is the difference in sound/quality between the Shure SM57 and the
SM58?
I'm looking for a versatile mic that sound clear, crisp, warm, and
bright
mainly on vocals and acoustic guitar. But it should also sound decent
for
other uses (electric guitar amps, drums, etc.).

Should I beware of extensions on the model such as LC for the SM57LC
(http://www.zzounds.com/item--SHUSM57LC) and SM58LC
(http://www.zzounds.com/item--SHUSM58LC)? Or are these the standard
Shure SM
models that everyone talks about? Thank you for any help.

Steve



lc=less cable
s=switch
consider the beta 57a as the best dynamic mic shure is making for the
uses expressed
George

Thank a lot. Might I ask what the "a" stands for?

Steve

"Tommi" wrote in message
...

"Steve" wrote in message
ink.net...
What is the difference in sound/quality between the Shure SM57 and the
SM58?
I'm looking for a versatile mic that sound clear, crisp, warm, and
bright
mainly on vocals and acoustic guitar. But it should also sound decent
for
other uses (electric guitar amps, drums, etc.).


It would be a good idea to try both of them before you buy. Listen them
yourself and you'll get a much better idea about their characteristics
than
you get from anyone's writing here!

However, 57 has a slight boost in the upper mids, giving it a crisp and
clear sound.
I think it sounds good on many vocals. SM58 also is a true workhorse, and
a
live vocal(sometimes studio also)mic of choice for many professional
singers.
58 has a foam ball inside it which is essentially working as a pop shield
itself.

57 is THE industry standard for electric guitar amp/snare mic, it's
difficult to go wrong with it on those cases.
I know it's a tough decision if you have a limited budget, but my advice
would be to buy 57 first, and when you can afford the other one, then also
the 58!

Thank you, that's very helpful.

Steve

"Steve" wrote in message
ink.net...

"George" wrote in message
...
In article . net,
"Steve" wrote:

What is the difference in sound/quality between the Shure SM57 and the
SM58?
I'm looking for a versatile mic that sound clear, crisp, warm, and
bright
mainly on vocals and acoustic guitar. But it should also sound decent
for
other uses (electric guitar amps, drums, etc.).

Should I beware of extensions on the model such as LC for the SM57LC
(http://www.zzounds.com/item--SHUSM57LC) and SM58LC
(http://www.zzounds.com/item--SHUSM58LC)? Or are these the standard
Shure SM
models that everyone talks about? Thank you for any help.

Steve



lc=less cable
s=switch
consider the beta 57a as the best dynamic mic shure is making for the
uses expressed
George

Thank a lot. Might I ask what the "a" stands for?

Steve

I believe it is a cosmetic upgrade that replaced the Beta 57
George


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003

A high-end transparent mic pre will out bring alot more clarity out of a 57 or 58.





"George Gleason" wrote in message ...
"Steve" wrote in message
ink.net...

"George" wrote in message
...
In article . net,
"Steve" wrote:

What is the difference in sound/quality between the Shure SM57 and the
SM58?
I'm looking for a versatile mic that sound clear, crisp, warm, and
bright
mainly on vocals and acoustic guitar. But it should also sound decent
for
other uses (electric guitar amps, drums, etc.).

Should I beware of extensions on the model such as LC for the SM57LC
(http://www.zzounds.com/item--SHUSM57LC) and SM58LC
(http://www.zzounds.com/item--SHUSM58LC)? Or are these the standard
Shure SM
models that everyone talks about? Thank you for any help.

Steve



lc=less cable
s=switch
consider the beta 57a as the best dynamic mic shure is making for the
uses expressed
George

Thank a lot. Might I ask what the "a" stands for?

Steve

I believe it is a cosmetic upgrade that replaced the Beta 57
George


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003

"philip shaw bova" wrote in message
m

A high-end transparent mic pre will out bring alot more clarity out of a
57 or 58.

agreed but...

....even a number of low-end mics can do that!

I believe there was also a bit of response tweaking as well. I have
yet to hear one of the original Beta57s but I know two guys in town
who both *love* the Beta57a and *loathe* the Beta57. One of them, at
least, has ears that I trust.

In any case, the Beta57a is an *excellent* utility mic and you can get
them new all day long for $100 via eBay.

Michael

Thank a lot. Might I ask what the "a" stands for?

Steve

I believe it is a cosmetic upgrade that replaced the Beta 57
George


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003

Pooh Bear wrote in message ...
philip shaw bova wrote:

A high-end transparent mic pre will out bring alot more clarity out of a 57 or 58.

Why not just buy a decent mic ?

Far more cost effective.

in the short term, but your whole mic collection will benefit from
nice pres...even "decent mic[s]"...

in addition to engineering, i fancy myself a bit of a
songwriter/performer (yeah, yeah, i know... :-)) lately i've been
using a trusty old 58 to record my vocals with for the simplicity and
the feel of being able to just hold the mic. i have a decent mic
collection and the 58 is definitely a conscious choice. however, i
think if i didn't have some nice pres i would be a bit more hesitant
before choosing it...

....works for Bjork! (of course, she can actually sing!)

the 57.

I have a couple of Beta 57As as well as 57s and 58s. The Beta's are a
very different mic. Hypercardiod (great in rehearsals or on stage to
cut out the other instruments and prevent feedback). They are crisper
and have a much more pronounced high end than the 57s. They also have
less low end. I use them as my mic of choice on snare. I think they
would sound better on many guitar amps, like Marshals which can sound
too muddy (I use a Shure SM7 for these).

But I think the Beta 57A sounds terrible on vocals. It's thin and
harsh. I also don't like it as well on toms - it doesn't have as much
low end, or at least doesn't have as much proximity effect.

For vocals I would definately go with the 58. It's got a sweeter
sound than the 57. Both have a pronounced high end boost, but the 58
is at a frequency that makes it less harsh.

So, in short, I would probably get the 58. It's easier to eq snares
or guitars to make them sound nice. Vocals are very touchy and
usually of primary importance to get right. Any of the three will
work though.

But for just a bit more I would get a Studio Projects C1 (large
diaphram, cardiod condensor). That is a first rate vocal mic, and
will do a great job on guitars. It's hard to imagine close micing a
snare with it, but it would probably be great (although it would
probably pick up too much Hi Hat). It's wonderful as an overhead
though.

Ken Winokur / Alloy Orchestra

there are very few mics that cost over 30$ that I would not pick before a
sm58 for live vocals
it is one of the worst sounding vocal mics available
George


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003

Really? Everyone I talk to seems to LOVE the 58????

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:01:22 GMT, "George Gleason"
wrote:

there are very few mics that cost over 30$ that I would not pick before a
sm58 for live vocals
it is one of the worst sounding vocal mics available
George


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003

"Ciberratt" wrote in message
...
Really? Everyone I talk to seems to LOVE the 58????


well your talking to me and I don't
aamof I hate them
george


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003

Ciberratt wrote:
Really? Everyone I talk to seems to LOVE the 58????

The 58 doesn't pop, and you can shove it all the way up against your
mouth without a problem. That's the best thing that can be said for it.
It's good to keep one around, though, for P-poppers and mike-eaters.
The lack of any response above the presence peak is a big issue for many
folks, though, especially altos.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Why?

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 21:43:55 GMT, "George Gleason"
wrote:


"Ciberratt" wrote in message
.. .
Really? Everyone I talk to seems to LOVE the 58????


well your talking to me and I don't
aamof I hate them
george


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003

"Ciberratt" wrote in message
...
Why?

for the upper mid harshness and the lower mid muddieness
for the way it makes female singers sound like they are singing through a
can full of BB's
my opinion is strictly related to live sound
I am not qualified to offer opinions on recording arts
george


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003

Hi,

there are very few mics that cost over 30$ that I would not pick before a
sm58 for live vocals
it is one of the worst sounding vocal mics available
George

Well, I've had good live experiences with 58. Certainly it very used
around the world for a vocal live mic (might be its low cost too). But
then again, I believe that Bono from U2 uses/has used it a lot during
their concerts, which I'm sure he wouldn't do if the mic was just
plain crappy, cause he sure has the money to choose. And come to think
of it, I'm 98% sure that I saw a fairly recent photo of B.B. King use
it in studio with a pop shield.

I think the problem could be that everyone has a different kind of
voice. For some voices, 58 might be an excellent choice, for some it
might be crappy. Same thing goes for 57. Like I mentioned in a thread
in here not so long ago, I have a pretty muddy, lowmidsy voice. 57
suits me perfectly, at least in faster rock material (which my voice
is not so good for anyway).

The key word here might be to *try* mics. What suits others, might not
suit you, and vice versa.


Regards, Kalle

Regards, Kalle

please don't try to compare Bono to music
or BB king to qality vocals
I have a dozen 58's for the people who want to use them but I can not
think of a single performer that would have not sounded better on one of
my m88's or audix mics
Just cause "joe big shot" uses a 58 is not a worthwhile argument for
such a POS
George

In article , George
writes:

please don't try to compare Bono to music
or BB king to qality vocals

Wow George, you're quite an authority. Nice to know that someone can make such
definitive proclamations about what is and is not music and what constitutes
quality.
Does you ego fit in the overhead compartment when you fly? sheesh!
Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

In article ,
(Garthrr) wrote:

In article ,
George
writes:

please don't try to compare Bono to music
or BB king to qality vocals

Wow George, you're quite an authority. Nice to know that someone can make
such
definitive proclamations about what is and is not music and what constitutes
quality.
Does you ego fit in the overhead compartment when you fly? sheesh!
Garth~

would you by funky sunglasses just cause Bono used them?
I doubt he gives a rats ass about what mic he is using

regadless of my ego the sm58 is not a good live vocal mic
for all the resons stated pervously
before some fool tried to say
"it is great beacuse Bono used it"
that is like trying to say a stratocaster is great cause hendrix used it
or stella is great cause leadbetter used it

if I am a egotistic manic for being able to hear the diffrence between a
58 and a 88 then so be it
George

Kalle L. wrote:

Well, I've had good live experiences with 58. Certainly it very used
around the world for a vocal live mic (might be its low cost too). But
then again, I believe that Bono from U2 uses/has used it a lot during
their concerts, which I'm sure he wouldn't do if the mic was just
plain crappy, cause he sure has the money to choose.

Look at those photos again. What you see is definitely NOT an SM58.

And come to think
of it, I'm 98% sure that I saw a fairly recent photo of B.B. King use
it in studio with a pop shield.

Why would anyone use a 58 with a pop shield? The whole point of using
a 58 is that it's impossible to pop. That's the main reason it's used.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

The spec for Bono live mic is a ud4 with a Beta 87a capsule
anything else is contrary to the rider
George


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003

Ciberratt wrote:

Really? Everyone I talk to seems to LOVE the 58????

You may have been talking to the wrong people?!?
Hate is such a strong word, but I do think there's usually a better
choice. I can recall only one singer whose voice I actually liked
through an SM58.

Sander

Hey,

Thanks for the nice comments. I'm sure that if you'd wanted you would have
gotten the idea from my post that SM58 can't be just plain crap choice for
everyone since some people in this world actually want to use it, even if
they had money to pick something else...but of course you didn't.

The original question was about differences between 57/58, which I tried to
answer.

How I dared to make an assumption that Bono has anything to do with
music...I don't know, one of my weak moments I guess. He sure hasn't been
doing anything else than travelling the world for the past 20 years, while
turning the knobs on Edge's effects rack...who by the way is not a guitarist
at all!



Take it easy.


Regards, Kalle




"George" wrote in message
...
Regards, Kalle

please don't try to compare Bono to music
or BB king to qality vocals
I have a dozen 58's for the people who want to use them but I can not
think of a single performer that would have not sounded better on one of
my m88's or audix mics
Just cause "joe big shot" uses a 58 is not a worthwhile argument for
such a POS
George

Hi,

Look at those photos again. What you see is definitely NOT an SM58.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's not the case anymore. But at some point in his
career he did. I remember clearly he did on the Joshua Tree tour, it's even
mentioned in the official tour program. It was only after that album that I
heard that it's been Bono's choice for years. That story could be an urban
legend of course.

Why would anyone use a 58 with a pop shield? The whole point of using
a 58 is that it's impossible to pop. That's the main reason it's used.

Well, that's what I thought too


Kalle

--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Kalle L. wrote:

Look at those photos again. What you see is definitely NOT an SM58.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's not the case anymore. But at some point in his
career he did. I remember clearly he did on the Joshua Tree tour, it's even
mentioned in the official tour program. It was only after that album that I
heard that it's been Bono's choice for years. That story could be an urban
legend of course.

Doesn't make sense, no.

Although the 58 is the choice of a lot of mike-eaters, though. And God
knows there are a lot of those in this world.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article , George
writes:

if I am a egotistic manic for being able to hear the diffrence between a
58 and a 88 then so be it
George

I never said or implied that. However the other things you said might qualify.
Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

How I dared to make an assumption that Bono has anything to do with
music...I don't know, one of my weak moments I guess. He sure hasn't been
doing anything else than travelling the world for the past 20 years, while
turning the knobs on Edge's effects rack...who by the way is not a
guitarist
at all!



you find what you like from artists endorsments
I will listen to mics myself
I would not think a preist would be swayed by using the same mic the Pope
uses(sm58 BTW)
or the two mics White House communications use(sm57 and Beta green 4.0)
you do it your way
I will trust MY ears
george


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message ...
Kalle L. wrote:

Look at those photos again. What you see is definitely NOT an SM58.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's not the case anymore. But at some point in his
career he did. I remember clearly he did on the Joshua Tree tour, it's even
mentioned in the official tour program. It was only after that album that I
heard that it's been Bono's choice for years. That story could be an urban
legend of course.

Doesn't make sense, no.

Although the 58 is the choice of a lot of mike-eaters, though. And God
knows there are a lot of those in this world.
--scott

I think the important thing that no one is emphasising is the SM
initials an sm57 is good on guitars and snare as well as many other
things. Its not so good for vocals cuz the wire can be painful on some
singers lips. A BETA 58 is quite a good mic (not great) and sounds a
lot better than the SM58. I think Bono has used a Beta not an SM for a
long time incluing in the studio, but I don't know/care what he uses
now.
You need to say whether you intend to use the mic for live or stuio or
both. Most PA's are tuned for the vocal mic so if you come along with
a vastly diferent sounding mic it can sound bad. However using a beta
58 on a system tuned for a sm58 sounds good to me. If you are
basically wanting to record at home or studio then the studio projects
mic is the way to go. If you want to do both then save up for a
Beta87.
SM58 will never has never and can never sound good regardless of
preamp. It can sound ok but really they are pretty bad mics that are
indestructable

In article ,
(Ben Hoadley) writes:

SM58 will never has never and can never sound good regardless of
preamp.

Beware of blanket statements of this kind, especially when they refer to one of
the most successful products in the history of pro audio.

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

In article ,
(Ben Hoadley) writes:

I think Bono has used a Beta not an SM for a
long time incluing in the studio,

Anything is possible but I would bet a few bucks that a Shure Beta is not what
he uses in the studio. Maybe once on something, but I seriously doubt if this
is his mic of choice.

Garth~



"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

"Garthrr" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Ben Hoadley) writes:

I think Bono has used a Beta not an SM for a
long time incluing in the studio,

Anything is possible but I would bet a few bucks that a Shure Beta is not
what
he uses in the studio. Maybe once on something, but I seriously doubt if
this
is his mic of choice.


I contacted my friends that do the U2 tours
Bonos tech crew requests a Shure Beta 87a on a shure UD4 transmitter
though it is not always what is provided
he also uses a sennheiser 431/wireless quite often
I am also sure he has sung through just about every vox mic you can name
i bet(as in My opinion, not a known fact) he cares more about his
sunglasses than his vocal mic
george


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003

George, a lot of people, including many in this group use an sm57 quite
often, so even though you may hate it, many don't agree. And also as
often pointed out, it is affected greatly by the choice of preamps. I
was surprised how much better it sounded when plugged into my Hardy preamp.

-Rob

George Gleason wrote:
"Garthrr" wrote in message
...

In article ,
(Ben Hoadley) writes:


I think Bono has used a Beta not an SM for a
long time incluing in the studio,

Anything is possible but I would bet a few bucks that a Shure Beta is not

what

he uses in the studio. Maybe once on something, but I seriously doubt if

this

is his mic of choice.



I contacted my friends that do the U2 tours
Bonos tech crew requests a Shure Beta 87a on a shure UD4 transmitter
though it is not always what is provided
he also uses a sennheiser 431/wireless quite often
I am also sure he has sung through just about every vox mic you can name
i bet(as in My opinion, not a known fact) he cares more about his
sunglasses than his vocal mic
george


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003

Ben Hoadley wrote:

I think the important thing that no one is emphasising is the SM
initials an sm57 is good on guitars and snare as well as many other
things. Its not so good for vocals cuz the wire can be painful on some
singers lips. A BETA 58 is quite a good mic (not great) and sounds a
lot better than the SM58. I think Bono has used a Beta not an SM for a
long time incluing in the studio, but I don't know/care what he uses
now.

If your lips are touching the grille, you are TOO CLOSE TO THE MIKE.
Get back. Get WAY back. Most mikes will NOT sound good when they
are stuck those close to your face.

You need to say whether you intend to use the mic for live or stuio or
both. Most PA's are tuned for the vocal mic so if you come along with
a vastly diferent sounding mic it can sound bad. However using a beta
58 on a system tuned for a sm58 sounds good to me. If you are
basically wanting to record at home or studio then the studio projects
mic is the way to go. If you want to do both then save up for a
Beta87.

I assumed we were talking about sound reinforcement in this thread. For
recording work, I wouldn't use any of these mikes for vocals, but I
might use either one on a guitar cabinet depending on how screechy it is.

SM58 will never has never and can never sound good regardless of
preamp. It can sound ok but really they are pretty bad mics that are
indestructable

It will never sound good, but if you have some guy who insists on sticking
mike in his mouth, it's one of the better choices to get around that problem.
Yes, it would be better just to teach the vocalist to use a mike properly,
but sometimes there's no time for that.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:


Although the 58 is the choice of a lot of mike-eaters, though. And God
knows there are a lot of those in this world.

So wouldn't it be nice if Shure would insulate that ball?

"Rob Adelman" wrote in message
...
George, a lot of people, including many in this group use an sm57 quite
often, so even though you may hate it, many don't agree. And also as
often pointed out, it is affected greatly by the choice of preamps. I
was surprised how much better it sounded when plugged into my Hardy
preamp.

I own and use both 58's and 57's
I was losing so many 57's to theft I have started using the eV Co4 as a 57
alternate
works acceptably for live sound anywhere you would put a 57(I would never
put a 57 on vox)
I keep the 58's for the abusive acts as they are industructable(almost)
Just cause I use them doesn't mean I like them

George


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003

"S O'Neill" wrote in message
...
Scott Dorsey wrote:


Although the 58 is the choice of a lot of mike-eaters, though. And God
knows there are a lot of those in this world.

So wouldn't it be nice if Shure would insulate that ball?

????
Insulate the ball from what???
sorry ,I do not understand the point
George


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003

In article writes:

So wouldn't it be nice if Shure would insulate that ball?

Want an insulated ball? Get a BLUE Ball. They even offer it in colors
now.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo