"Romeo Rondeau" wrote in message
...
Eeyore wrote:

Romeo Rondeau wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Marc Amsterdam" wrote in message

Not checking your metering when mixing is like not
checking the speedometer when driving, or altitude when
flying, NOT a good idea!
Agreed - providing of course that there is a PFL meter to check with.
NOT agreed here.

It's almost never necessary. But then I have been mixing for 35 years.
Newbies
may feel the need to do it more 'by the book' than is actually
necessary.
So, let me get this straight, you are saying that meters are for
newbies?

No. Don't misrepresent what I said.

Keeping an eye on the output levels is important.

It's a simple fact however that a well-designed mixer with a sensible
internal gain
stucture simply can't be clipped if you're operating it competently and
not for
example using absurd fader settings.

Graham



Fair enough. I see what you mean...

the meters help us maximize s/ ad set up the levels for the ext stage or
outbaord gear
to igore them is simply BAD egineerig
eyesore is not qualified to speak on live sound , because he ever gets it
right

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
. ..

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...
Peak operating levels through a console or a preamp should be at
least 10 dB below clipping. Under those conditions, the clipping
light is always dark, and unlikely to ever light.

I don't get the point in that speculation. If you want maximum signal to
noise ratio then you need to use the available dynamic range.

To do that efficiently you of course need to know what you are doing.

Yes, like not adding high levels of distortion just to gain a couple of dB
of S/N ratio.

MrT.

distortion IS noise
you cann ot increase the s/n by adding noise.
George

"sam" wrote in message ...
Mr.T wrote:
"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...
The solution is simple: reduce input sensitivity on power amps used with
it.

Yep, I'm always amazed how many people always run the power amps at full
gain without having a clue about the input levels.

MrT.


Power amps always run at full gain, they just have input attenuators

a very importat point that all should uderstad
amps are fixed gain devices
george

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:

Your dynamic range math gives results that differ from my
experience with these extreme dynamic range recording
events ... vox that runs out of bits sounds plastic when
lifted in post, at least 20 dB equipment range is
required below the room sound, not just the 6 dB you seem
to consider enough.

Where did I say 6 dB?

He

: The signals they amplify come from sources that
: have residual noise in both the acoustical and electrical domains.
: Rarely does the signal being amplified have more then about 75 dB
: dynamic range. That means that it is practical to allow from 15
: to 69 dB for headroom, without significant reduction of the
: signal's dynamic range.

69 from 75 equals 6. You could have written clearer btw.

Also, not quoted for clarity, you assert that the dynamic range of a
digital mixer can be larger than the dynamic range of the analog stage
that feeds signal to the AD converter

we already painted arii into his corner on this one a month ago
he is still clueless o the real dynamic range of live mixing

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
and most manuals will give you the headroom once the peak blinks so it
is a
valid way of setting pfl, if others ways are not providied

That results in setting a channel way too HOT.

That's the kind of bad advice I recall seeing 30 years ago and it seems
IDIOTS
like George havn't moved on since then.

George is an audio dinosaur if he reckons you should set channel levels
so
the
clip LED blinks.

and what did I say
tur it up until it blinks then turn it back so it wont
this is how its done when a clip light is your only meter

I never said run your mixer with clip lights blinking
those are your words, not mine


So true, one wonders what the levels on the mix bus are like when he sets
16
channels to clipping point! :-)

see above
I am clipping nothing during the mixing
as most clip lights come on at least 3 if not 6dB before actual clip I have
adaquate headroom

but honestly I cant remember using any desk over 4 channels that did not
provide proper metering
so your imagined senerio of 16 channels going to clip simply
never has and never will happen

MrT.

[Eeyore]

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote

Sometimes, for specmanship, the available maximum level is SO high (e.g.
+30dBu) it would be nuts to try to use it.

Or even impossible without overloading downstream equipment.

That is indeed why it's nuts.

Graham

[Eeyore]

wrote:

distortion IS noise

An interesting viewpoint..

Graham

[Eeyore]

wrote:

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote
"Eeyore" wrote
George Gleason wrote
and most manuals will give you the headroom once the peak blinks so it
is a valid way of setting pfl, if others ways are not providied

That results in setting a channel way too HOT.

That's the kind of bad advice I recall seeing 30 years ago and it seems
IDIOTS like George havn't moved on since then.

George is an audio dinosaur if he reckons you should set channel levels
so the clip LED blinks.

and what did I say
tur it up until it blinks then turn it back so it wont

That might result (fairly typically) in as little as 4dB of headroom.

It's VERY BAD advice.

Graham

[Eeyore]

"Mr.T" wrote:

wrote

yes arii turn it up till it bliks
then turn it back just enough so it doesn't

Yep, sometimes the only way, never a good way however.

Better advice would be to adjust the gain trim til the clip LEDs light, then
turn the gain trim down by TEN dB ! Turning it down so the channel 'just'
doesn't clip according to the LEDS gives almost no worthwhile headroom at all.
It'll also guarantee nonsense fader settings too.

Graham

[Eeyore]

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote

Anyone with half a clue can set channel gains without PFL metering. I
rarely need to resort to it.

Near enough is good enough for you though it would seem.
And you probably don't worry about overloading the mix bus either.

I've been giving this some thought. Admittedly I have decades of experience but
I didn't clip my channels when I started in this business either.

To a certain extent you've either got the 'knack' or you haven't. In my case I
do of course have the advantage of a thorough technical understanding of the
internal workings too.

Graham

[Eeyore]

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote

The hindrance is the absence of a schematic which will likely add an hour
or more to the time required to service it.

But you've already spent an hour complaining here! :-)

That's 'on my dollar' not the customer's.

Graham

[Ron(UK)]

Eeyore wrote:

wrote:

distortion IS noise

An interesting viewpoint..

Graham


It`s all noise shirley? just some of it`s good noise and some of it aint!

Ron(UK)

[Eeyore]

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote

The only reason I need a channel PFL is if I need to 'troubleshoot'.

Like why the audience has to put up with the distortion :-)

More like because I want to listen to the channel in detail in isolation. It is
pre-fade LISTEN after all.


Any decent modern mixer with a sensible gain struture (and operated
proficiently) is in no danger whatever of clipping a channel under normal
mix conditions. As such, fretting over channel levels is a pointless and
futile exercise.

You are lucky that all the instruments you plug in have similar output
levels then.

No they don't.

There's this thing called the gain trim you see.

Graham

[Eeyore]

wrote:

and what do you use when there is ONLY the clip light?

Make sure it doesn't illuminate maybe ?

Graham

[Eeyore]

wrote:

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote
"Phildo" wrote

How many times do you have to have the reasons for Behringer's decision
explained to you before it penetrates your thick skull?

I know what their policy is, I DO NOT have to agree with it just because
you do.

we dont care if you agree with it
they are satisfying MOST of thier customers

That's your assertion.

I can tell you MY client's not very happy that buying a new crossover is
cost-competitive with a repair (because Behringer's policy inflates the repair
cost).

Graham

[Eeyore]

wrote:

eyesore is not qualified to speak on live sound , because he ever gets it
right

On the contrary, I've regularly received favourable comments about my sound from
members of the audience or the band.

Graham

[Eeyore]

"Ron(UK)" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:

distortion IS noise

An interesting viewpoint..


It`s all noise shirley? just some of it`s good noise and some of it aint!

Just 'the wrong kind of noise' maybe ?

Graham

[Scott Dorsey]

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:

distortion IS noise

An interesting viewpoint..

It's correlated noise, as opposed to uncorrelated noise that appears even
when there is no signal.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Eeyore wrote:

I can tell you MY client's not very happy that buying a new crossover is
cost-competitive with a repair (because Behringer's policy inflates the repair
cost).

Look, you buy disposable gear, you expect it to last a couple years and then
get thrown away.

If you object to this, then don't buy disposable gear.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Eeyore wrote:

I can tell you MY client's not very happy that buying a new crossover is
cost-competitive with a repair (because Behringer's policy inflates the
repair
cost).

then why didn't you fix it for him?
you claim to know circuts inside and out
troubleshooting such a simple device surely would not be a challenge to you
it wasnt for me and I am a hack when it comes to repairs
but my crossover was a ashley 2001 that though schematic were available I
chose to go in without one
cause its not a complicated are difficult device

even my allen and heath Icon I did not need a schematic to resolve the
bridging rectifier issue

the fact is most equipment , you do not need a schmatic to get repairs done

a little basic knowledge and a few simple tools
will cover most audio gear
being a tech is not hard or mentally strenous
but it is boring as hell
and tech work for a pittence of what I earn so why would I spend productive
time doing 20$ a hour work when my skills bill out at 65-130$ a hour
make more sense for me to hire solder jockeys at this point in my career
george

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Mr.T wrote:

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...

Peak operating levels through a console or a preamp should be at
least 10 dB below clipping. Under those conditions, the clipping
light is always dark, and unlikely to ever light.

I don't get the point in that speculation. If you want maximum
signal to noise ratio then you need to use the available dynamic
range.

To do that efficiently you of course need to know what you are doing.

Yes, like not adding high levels of distortion just to gain a couple
of dB of S/N ratio.

Yes, here is as an example of the gruesome outcome of my relaxed attitude
the statistics of the raw 71 minutes and 48 seconds of chamber music concert
recorded today:

Left Right

Min Sample Value: -32768 -32768
Max Sample Value: 32767 32767
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Possibly Clipped: 10 56
DC Offset: -.001 -.001
Minimum RMS Power: -96.49 dB -96.51 dB
Maximum RMS Power: -12.46 dB -11.59 dB
Average RMS Power: -25.62 dB -25.11 dB
Total RMS Power: -23.84 dB -23.31 dB
Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 300 ms

Sampling frequency is 44100 kHz, and the total number of possibly clipped
samples, both channels counted is 66. I could have avoided them by recording
at a 2 dB lower level, so yes: high levels of distortion was the trade-off
for some 2 dB S/N ratio. Two of those clipped samples are in the final
tutti, the remainder are in the applause. The outcome of unclipping in
Audition put the peaks 1.5 dB above 0 dB FS.

Just what music is it you normally work with since the first couple of dB's
of clipping ends up constituting "high levels of distortion" in your
experience?

MrT.

Not that I advocate clipping as a sound recording strategy, but worrying too
much - nah, don't wanna do that, one has to know what to worry about and a
bit of clipping of the applause is not for me a major worry.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Eeyore]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

I can tell you MY client's not very happy that buying a new crossover is
cost-competitive with a repair (because Behringer's policy inflates the repair
cost).

Look, you buy disposable gear, you expect it to last a couple years and then
get thrown away.

I personally expect any decently designed electronics to last say 10 years or more.
There's precious little to 'wear out' and I object to the very concept of the
throwaway society. It's disgustingly wasteful.


If you object to this, then don't buy disposable gear.

Try explaining this to the people who buy it. THEY don't consider it disposable.
There's no reason it should be. I see nothing on the Behringer site that suggets it
is intended to be thrown away after say 3 years.

Graham

[Eeyore]

wrote:

"Scott Dorsey" wrote
Eeyore wrote:

I can tell you MY client's not very happy that buying a new crossover is
cost-competitive with a repair (because Behringer's policy inflates the
repair cost).

then why didn't you fix it for him?

Because without a schematic my time spent on it is likely to be uneconomic.


you claim to know circuts inside and out troubleshooting such a simple device
surely would not be a challenge to you

Whilst by no means impossible what do I have to do to get it into your thick
head that troubleshooting without a schematic to help one follow the signal
path and indentify the stages is very time consuming.

The fact is of course that you're too stupid to understand such ideas.


Graham

[Eeyore]

Peter Larsen wrote:

Sampling frequency is 44100 kHz, and the total number of possibly clipped
samples, both channels counted is 66. I could have avoided them by recording
at a 2 dB lower level, so yes: high levels of distortion was the trade-off
for some 2 dB S/N ratio.

It's unlikely the s/n ratio would have suffered any. The s/n ratio is almost
always going to be determined by the source not the (digital) recorder. Was the
'silence' really -90 dBd or so ? You will have gained nothing.

Graham

[Scott Dorsey]

Eeyore wrote:
Scott Dorsey writes:
Look, you buy disposable gear, you expect it to last a couple years and then
get thrown away.

I personally expect any decently designed electronics to last say 10 years or more.
There's precious little to 'wear out' and I object to the very concept of the
throwaway society. It's disgustingly wasteful.

If you object to this, then it's simple. STOP BUYING DISPOSABLE GEAR.

Try explaining this to the people who buy it. THEY don't consider it disposable.

They find out in short order when it breaks. There is a reason why the
Behringer crossover costs less than a Marchand.

You will notice that every neighborhood used to have a corner TV repair
shop, and now they are almost completely gone? Consumer electronics is
so cheap that it is not cost-effective to repair.

There's no reason it should be. I see nothing on the Behringer site that suggets it
is intended to be thrown away after say 3 years.

This is the basic lifetime expected of TV sets and VCRs. This is considered
to be about the average life of a consumer electronics product. Since people
regularly want to upgrade to get new features, it's not considered important
to extend the lifetime greatly beyond that point.

This is the way cheap consumer electronics are. If you don't like it, don't
buy it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

This is the way cheap consumer electronics are. If you don't like it,
don't
buy it.


or in eyesores case
just go whine about it till your blue in the face at aapls
George

Peter why do you have to be so damn sensible?
I have been known to let some metal kick drums clip slightly
it give them lots more punch and in the din and rumble of a metal show I
defy anyone to identify the instant that I have choosen to use distortion as
a tool to produce a desired sound
george

[Eeyore]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Scott Dorsey writes:
Look, you buy disposable gear, you expect it to last a couple years and then
get thrown away.

I personally expect any decently designed electronics to last say 10 years or more.
There's precious little to 'wear out' and I object to the very concept of the
throwaway society. It's disgustingly wasteful.

If you object to this, then it's simple. STOP BUYING DISPOSABLE GEAR.

There is nothing inherent in Behringer kit that would deem it DISPOSABLE. It's perfectly
repairable and it's actually quite decently made IMHO. The only thing that makes it
economically disposable is the added repair cost imposed by their lack of end user
support.

Graham

[Roy W. Rising[_2_]]

"Paul Stamler" wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
There are many Distribution Amplifiers (DAs) with +30dBm (yes, *m*)
output capability.

It's only dB*m* if there's actually a 600 ohm load connected. I very
much doubt that's ever the case. In which case it's assuredly dB*u*, a
voltage.

I simply can't see the point of dBms today in a non-600ohm world. It
strikes me as pointlessly retrogressive.

It's not entirely a non-600ohm world. Two places where 600ohm drive is
needed:

1) Compressors of the 1176 variety. They're still popular (because they
sound good) and show up in a lot of studios. They have 600 ohm input
impedance.

2) Telephone lines. If you do any work in the broadcast world, sooner or
later you'll need to feed a phone line. Yeah, I know, but sometimes you
just plain have to, so you need gear which will do it.

Good systems design requires 18dB headroom throughout the chain.

Where did you get your 18dB from ?

There have been several studies of required peak-to-average capability
published, mostly in JAES, and they tend to converge on needing 17-18dB
of headroom over "nominal" level (defined as "what you measure on the VU
meter").

+22dBu. The kind of op-amps I typically use (4560 4580 5532) will
deliver +21dBu when operated on the +/- 17V supplies I favour.
Additionally, I often operate the channels at 'reduced level',
typically 6dB 'below external level'. That offers (21-4)+6 dB of
headroom = 23dB.

Which should be fine. These days a lot of balanced outputs are made with
opamps driving each leg; if the opamp can deliver +18dBu on each leg
(which should be no sweat, even with 15V supplies) then the total will be
+24dBu, which means you should never have clipping problems.

We used to describe operators as VU "Meter Minders" or "Pin
Pounders". For the latter, some downstream forgiveness saves a
gaggle of problems.

VUs are worthless things that simply provide minor entertainment IMHO.

A common view in the UK, not so much here. Having worked with recorders
possessing only peak-reading meters, I discovered the hard way how much
closer a VU is to matching perceived loudness. Not as close as a
Dorrough, perhaps, but a lot closer than the peak meters. Again, in a
broadcast environment, where we were scattering insert edits through the
tape, on deadline.

Peace,
Paul

Thanks for these responses, Paul. You have saved me the effort.

I'll add that the UREI LA-3A *requires* a 600 ohm load for flat frequency
response. I suspect the 1176 does as well.

In the 1980s, Peak Program Meters (PPMs) were imposed on ABC-TV Hollywood's
Audio Operators. I said "AOs who can't stay out of the red on a VU meter
where there is some forgiveness won't be able to stay out of the yellow on
a PPM where there's almost none". This proved to be true. We almost were
able to arrange an exchange of the dozens of PPMs for VUs with the dual
(amber/red) LEDs I described. Someone shot it down.

I'll characterize a problem with peak indicators this way: "Turn right 3
blocks *before* you get to Broadway". (Once you get there, you've gone too
far!)

--
~
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

[Eeyore]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Eeyore wrote:


There's no reason it should be. I see nothing on the Behringer site that suggets it
is intended to be thrown away after say 3 years.

This is the basic lifetime expected of TV sets and VCRs. This is considered
to be about the average life of a consumer electronics product.

Not my experience.

There is very little to actually 'wear out' in electronics. Why do you think it should
be thrown away after 3 years ?

Graham

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:

Peter Larsen wrote:

Sampling frequency is 44100 kHz, and the total number of possibly
clipped samples, both channels counted is 66. I could have avoided
them by recording at a 2 dB lower level, so yes: high levels of
distortion was the trade-off for some 2 dB S/N ratio.

It's unlikely the s/n ratio would have suffered any. The s/n ratio is
almost always going to be determined by the source not the (digital)
recorder. Was the 'silence' really -90 dBd or so ? You will have
gained nothing.

Not so Graham, by not making an adjustment of the record level during the
recording I have gained not having to make the reverse adjustment in post to
maintain actual dynamics. That DSP action had involved a lot more audio
samples than the ones I unclipped afterwards. I respectfully submit that
clip and unclip of applause is less audible than an extra step of DSP action
on the innards of stray cats from Cremona.

With two clipped samples on the recorded music I also submit that I got the
record level right. I'll take the trade-off that favours the violin sound
anytime.

This is btw. the first time I have experienced a chamber music audience
being louder than the chamber music with that mic setup (ORTF cards) in that
hall .... with omni's they are 6 dB louder, and if I had used omni's I had
made allowance for them.

Graham


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Eeyore]

"Roy W. Rising" wrote:


I'll add that the UREI LA-3A *requires* a 600 ohm load for flat frequency
response.

Yet there's very little (almost no) kit that will provide a 600 ohm load.

I suspect the 1176 does as well.

Unlikely with its Lundahl LL5402 output transformer.


In the 1980s, Peak Program Meters (PPMs) were imposed on ABC-TV Hollywood's
Audio Operators. I said "AOs who can't stay out of the red on a VU meter
where there is some forgiveness won't be able to stay out of the yellow on
a PPM where there's almost none". This proved to be true. We almost were
able to arrange an exchange of the dozens of PPMs for VUs with the dual
(amber/red) LEDs I described. Someone shot it down.

I'll characterize a problem with peak indicators this way: "Turn right 3
blocks *before* you get to Broadway". (Once you get there, you've gone too
far!)

Which is why in Europe our TV sound isn't clipped.

Graham

[Scott Dorsey]

Eeyore wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

There's no reason it should be. I see nothing on the Behringer site that suggets it
is intended to be thrown away after say 3 years.

This is the basic lifetime expected of TV sets and VCRs. This is considered
to be about the average life of a consumer electronics product.

Not my experience.

There is very little to actually 'wear out' in electronics. Why do you think it should
be thrown away after 3 years ?

It's not me, it's the average consumer. Within three years, there will be a
new generation of products that have new features and different blinking lights.
Marketing tells the consumer that this new generation is so much better than
what he bought a couple years ago, so he buys the new one. If you have the
consumer buying new products every three years, there's no reason to make them
last much longer than that.

Personally, I won't buy modern consumer gear, because I don't like being
treated that way. I'm in the minority, though.

I wind up having to explain this a lot, though, to kids who wonder why it
will cost them $500 to repair a thing they paid $200 for.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Eeyore]

Peter Larsen wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Peter Larsen wrote:

Sampling frequency is 44100 kHz, and the total number of possibly
clipped samples, both channels counted is 66. I could have avoided
them by recording at a 2 dB lower level, so yes: high levels of
distortion was the trade-off for some 2 dB S/N ratio.

It's unlikely the s/n ratio would have suffered any. The s/n ratio is
almost always going to be determined by the source not the (digital)
recorder. Was the 'silence' really -90 dBd or so ? You will have
gained nothing.

Not so Graham, by not making an adjustment of the record level during the
recording I have gained not having to make the reverse adjustment in post to
maintain actual dynamics. That DSP action had involved a lot more audio
samples than the ones I unclipped afterwards. I respectfully submit that
clip and unclip of applause is less audible than an extra step of DSP action
on the innards of stray cats from Cremona.

That sounds like obfuscation to me.


With two clipped samples on the recorded music I also submit that I got the
record level right. I'll take the trade-off that favours the violin sound
anytime.

This is btw. the first time I have experienced a chamber music audience
being louder than the chamber music with that mic setup (ORTF cards) in that
hall .... with omni's they are 6 dB louder, and if I had used omni's I had
made allowance for them.

So what was your noise level ?

I have some trouble believing you had a true dynamic range coming out of your
microphone or mixer in excess of 90dB.

Graham

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Arny, you need to check what the criteria for audible
clipping are.

Been there, done that.

If you had then you wouldn't be talking such crap.

Phildo

[Peter Larsen]

Eeyore wrote:

Not so Graham, by not making an adjustment of the record level during the
recording I have gained not having to make the reverse adjustment in post to
maintain actual dynamics. That DSP action had involved a lot more audio
samples than the ones I unclipped afterwards. I respectfully submit that
clip and unclip of applause is less audible than an extra step of DSP action
on the innards of stray cats from Cremona.

That sounds like obfuscation to me.

The violin sound fine to me, that's what I care about in this context.

With two clipped samples on the recorded music I also submit that I got the
record level right. I'll take the trade-off that favours the violin sound
anytime.

This is btw. the first time I have experienced a chamber music audience
being louder than the chamber music with that mic setup (ORTF cards) in that
hall .... with omni's they are 6 dB louder, and if I had used omni's I had
made allowance for them.

So what was your noise level ?

I didn't plan writing about the recording here, otherwise I had measured
actual event sound levels with my 6110i. What I can tell you is that the
recording is of todays concert at Ny Carlsberg Glyptotek in Copenhagen
and that the building has a very interesting noise foundation consisting
of museum visitors footsteps, nearby trains and diesel locomotives,
Tivoli if open and the bells of the town hall clock.

I have some trouble believing you had a true dynamic range coming out of your
microphone or mixer in excess of 90dB.

Graham, some of the time you are more of an electronics engineer than a
sound engineer. Wanting me to record the applause to a chamber music
concert unclipped on a 16 bit recorder is one of those times.

FWIW here is the stats for recorded noise on the input of the MR8HD with
the masterfader of the external mic pre turned down and the line input
gain set at "2 o'clock":

Left Right
Min Sample Value: -4 -3
Max Sample Value: 2 2
Peak Amplitude: -77.25 dB -79.44 dB
Possibly Clipped: 0 0
DC Offset: -.002 -.002
Minimum RMS Power: -95.24 dB -95.16 dB
Maximum RMS Power: -93.7 dB -94.01 dB
Average RMS Power: -94.81 dB -94.82 dB
Total RMS Power: -94.8 dB -94.82 dB
Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 300 ms

The noise performance of the mic pre is unknown.

Graham


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Eeyore wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

There's no reason it should be. I see nothing on the Behringer site
that suggets it
is intended to be thrown away after say 3 years.

I consider the life of a cd player to be not counted in years but rather
hours
after haveing "good" cd players last less than 6 months on the road I gave
up and buy the 10$ walmart specials now
usually a new cd player for every gig or 3

[Phildo]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...
The real world of audio often uses mixers with proper metering.
I can't say I've ever seen a real studio mixer without a metering bridge!

Strange, Arny claims that 95% of desks don't have metering. Go figure.

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Marc Amsterdam" wrote in message


course i mix by ear, i just dont set the gains by ear.

How do you set the gain, when the console has no PFL metering?

Do you really need to have that explained to you Arnold?

Not checking your metering when mixing is like not
checking the speedometer when driving, or altitude when
flying, NOT a good idea!

Agreed - providing of course that there is a PFL meter to check with.

There is always a meter of sorts.

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Phildo" wrote in message

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...
So you don't understand the difference between
"metering" (as you originally
stated) and a simple clip "indicator" then.
Besides the clip indicators are channel indicators,
nothing to do specifically with the PFL bus (as you
stated) in any case.

No but they are metering

Nope, they are warning lights.

Like it or not Arnold, they are a form of metering.

I guess Phildo this means that you always shift your car by revving it up
while waiting for the oil pressure light to come on.

Having a clip light indicate while you are setting your channel gains is not
going to damage anything Arnold. Of course you wouldn't know that because
you have no idea how to set channel gains as proven by your claim you can
set them by ear better than by using the meters.

Phildo