[Mr.T]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
But surely you understand the concept of design purpose?

What do you think?

I think you do, which makes it surprising to me that you
think the 802 needs PFL.

Never said that. However, an 802 with PFL metering could be a nice touch.
I
think they are about $1 worth of parts and production costs away from
having
such a thing. I daresay we may see such a thing in the future. Or not.

Good luck finding space to fit the switch :-)

MrT.

[Eeyore]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote
"Eeyore" wrote

So, which parts do you expect to fail ?

Capacitors, power supplies, remote controls, dry
joints..... all the usual suspects.

Usually switches, pots, and connectors are the most likely to go bad or be
damaged.

On a TV ?

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
OK, if you expect a mixer with a single mic channel to
have PFL, good luck in finding one. :-)

I've definately seen musical performances that used only
one mic, and no other electronic instruments at all. Why
not use an 802 for such a gig?

And you need PFL for that why exactly?

You've completely reversed my position in the matter. Phildo is the big
worshipper of PFL metering, not me. My position is that PFL metering is a
good thing, but one can live without it. In at least some cases, religiously
relying on metering to the exclusion of evidence gathered by the ears can be
suboptimal.

[Mr.T]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
so can you please
explain why you believe the 802 needs PFL,

It doesn't need PFL metering, but it could be a nice touch.

or is the distinction somewhat valid?

Somewhat valid = weasel phrase.

And YOU are weaselling about PFL being "a nice touch".
Bloody hell, is it too much to buy a mixer that suits your needs rather than
expect EVERY bloody mixer ever made will have every facility known to man!

MrT..

[Arny Krueger]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
But surely you understand the concept of design
purpose?

What do you think?

I think you do, which makes it surprising to me that you
think the 802 needs PFL.

Never said that. However, an 802 with PFL metering
could be a nice touch. I think they are about $1 worth
of parts and production costs away from having such a
thing. I daresay we may see such a thing in the future.
Or not.

Good luck finding space to fit the switch :-)

Push-pull switch on a pot.

[Mr.T]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Yes, and excludes the 802/1002 types by any reasonable
definition.

Prove it.

Fine use them, keep bitching, I don't care!

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Good luck finding space to fit the switch :-)

Push-pull switch on a pot.

You know how unreliable they are?

MrT.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Good luck finding space to fit the switch :-)

Push-pull switch on a pot.

You know how unreliable they are?

Done well...

BTW there are 4 push-pull switches in the parametric eq section of the
02R96.

[Arny Krueger]

"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote
"Eeyore" wrote

So, which parts do you expect to fail ?

Capacitors, power supplies, remote controls, dry
joints..... all the usual suspects.

Usually switches, pots, and connectors are the most
likely to go bad or be damaged.

On a TV ?

I think we're actually agreeing, because IME the most-used and most
unreliable switches are buttons on the remote control... ;-)

[Mr.T]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
How about the Xenyx1222FX ? It has 6 mic inputs and no PFL
http://behringer.com/1222FX/index.cfm?lang=eng

I'm sure there are others too. Good thing they publish the spec sheets so
you can avoid them IF you require that facility, isn't it?
The point is they make plenty of mixers that do have that facility.

MrT.

[Eeyore]

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote

Good luck finding space to fit the switch :-)

Push-pull switch on a pot.

You know how unreliable they are?

Do you ?

Graham

[Eeyore]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote
"Eeyore" wrote

So, which parts do you expect to fail ?

Capacitors, power supplies, remote controls, dry
joints..... all the usual suspects.

Usually switches, pots, and connectors are the most
likely to go bad or be damaged.

On a TV ?

I think we're actually agreeing, because IME the most-used and most
unreliable switches are buttons on the remote control... ;-)

Interesting comment. It's the 'quality' of the conductive rubber pills that
determine the lifetime of those usually. I've only ever worn out one (a cheapy).
The TV's still going stong about 20 yrs later though.

Graham

[Ron(UK)]

Eeyore wrote:

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote

Good luck finding space to fit the switch :-)
Push-pull switch on a pot.
You know how unreliable they are?

Do you ?

Graham


Midas use clicky down switches on pots

Ron(UK)

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Arny Krueger wrote:

Lets say we restate what Peter says:

Thank you Arny!

Mechanical Vu meters can be counted on to miss the full impact of
very short transients, sometimes by as much as 10-15 dB.

LED-based peak-reading meters that lack pulse stretchers will display
short transients so briefly that even an experienced eye can miss
them. This can result in under-reading by 6-10 dB.

I was actually considering standard PPM's referenced to 6 dBU. Thank you for
mentioning the state(s) of the Art with electronic displays. I should have
mentioned them as a special case, but focused on the level references that
define the line levels that are to be expected.

My reference standard for recorded levels is a magnified display on a
DAW screen. I've seen exactly what Peter is talking about happen in
my own work. That's one reason why I'm such a headroom junkie.

One *must* know what peaks to expect, indeed. If not, then the outcome is
indeed certain and highly audible distortion.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:

He didn't say transients.

Please look at the subject header. Thank you for confirming that you did
indeed misread me as I understood you to have done. Thank you also for
mentioning the full wave issue ...

Graham


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:

Peter Larsen wrote:

There is still that 130 less 85 conundrum that you didn't solve, but
you did get the math right. And 45 dB white noise in a concert hall
is likely to be audible.

What ARE you on about ?

The s-n ratio concern you discounted initially. The PA should not be audible
by a person with normal hearing until it actually emits wanted sound.

You also discounted my use of VU's and PPM's as examples, they matter
because they are the instruments that by their properties define what
maximum peak level to cater for. The alteration of display mechanisms - be
it electronic or mechanical - are just that, line level practice is
unchanged.

All that matters are maximum and mininum levels, average levels are
irrelevant to where the floor and the ceiling of a system should be.

Graham


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Mr.T wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

What is your criteria for identifying a Behringer mixer as a "FOH
mixer"?

Well I don't often get asked to "mix" one channel :-)

All miorophone positioning constitutes mixing.

MrT.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Arny Krueger]

"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote
"Eeyore"
wrote

So, which parts do you expect to fail ?

Capacitors, power supplies, remote controls, dry
joints..... all the usual suspects.

Usually switches, pots, and connectors are the most
likely to go bad or be damaged.

On a TV ?

I think we're actually agreeing, because IME the
most-used and most unreliable switches are buttons on
the remote control... ;-)

Interesting comment. It's the 'quality' of the conductive
rubber pills that determine the lifetime of those
usually. I've only ever worn out one (a cheapy). The TV's
still going stong about 20 yrs later though.

In another post I pointed out that my last TV (a Philips/Maganvox) has died
after about 8 years - an internal failure probabaly on the convergance
board.

The remote on my Philips/Magnavox DVD recorder is very unreliable after only
about 3 years. OTOH, I have a remote for a Sony 32" TV that is about 20
years old that still works swell.

[Mickey]

On 2007-10-02, Mr.T MrT@home wrote:

"Mickey" wrote in message
...
No, they are still ticking along just fine. I have one, and I know of at
least two others. I haven't had a television die on me since I can
recall. And I don't hear "my television quit working today, so I had to
get another one" from anyone.

Funny, I've heard just that from many Goldstar owners, and of course my Sony
died a couple of years ago and I had to get another one :-)
(was a lot less than 20 years old too)

I don't get around much when it comes to TV. I just buy them and fix
them, everyone else watches them. Unless it is basketball season, I
never turn one on. Maybe that is my secret. 8-)

But I do have friends and acquaintances, and as the famous electronics
expert I get plenty of questions about it. And I used to fix a few from
time to time.

Certainly these things fail, don't get me wrong. But they fail a lot
less often than the TV sets I worked on in the 1970s did. Good components
or not, they are at least as reliable as the old sets.

There might have been a short golden age shortly after solid state TV
sets came out, but it lasted only about 10 years. And those sets cost
$1,500 in today's dollars. The slight amount of improved reliability
hardly accounts for that difference.

I see plenty tossed out because their
picture fades a bit, and just from being too small and too backward, but
they don't fizzle.

The tube in mine was fine, the tempory fix was smaller. Still lots of faulty
power supply faults, line output transformers etc. and we won't even mention
remote controls :-)

If it lasts five years, it still will give me much more service per dollar
than one purchased at the 1970 price in real dollars.

Agreed, but that's not difficult!


If it were easy to provide cheap high quality TVs, someone would do it. The
market has spoken -- it will not pay for them. High cost and quality is
a niche.

Of course that type of anecdotal evidence is pretty meaningless, as
the carbon-filament lightbulb burning in the San Francisco firehouse
since 1911 proves....

And the two new globes I replaced within a month in the same fitting prove
too :-)

But it's not hard to make a globe last forever if you don't care about light
output or efficiency.

And if you don't make a misstep or have a lightning strike or power surge.
I see many more units fail for those reasons than any others.

--
Mickey

My wife is great. She doesn't care where I go, just as long as I don't
have any fun. -- Lee Trevino

[Arny Krueger]

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message

Mr.T wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

What is your criteria for identifying a Behringer mixer
as a "FOH mixer"?

Well I don't often get asked to "mix" one channel :-)

For the Sunday morning worship gig, about 60% of the service is one mic,
lashed to the pastor's throat.

BTW, its the 502 that has only 1 mic input, and I believe no phantom power.

All microphone positioning constitutes mixing.

Agreed. And while the Behringer 802 (current model Xynix 802) has 2 mic
inputs with phantom, and it also has 2 stereo line level inputs.

But AFAIK, no niether the 502 nor the 802 have PFL or Clip indicators.

BTW, the 1002 that I have is the predecessor to the UBB 1002 - 5 mic inputs,
clip indicators on mic inputs, and inserts on 2 mic channels.

[Eeyore]

"Ron(UK)" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
"Mr.T" wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote

Good luck finding space to fit the switch :-)
Push-pull switch on a pot.
You know how unreliable they are?

Do you ?


Midas use clicky down switches on pots

Nothing wrong with that.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Peter Larsen wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Peter Larsen wrote:

There is still that 130 less 85 conundrum that you didn't solve, but
you did get the math right. And 45 dB white noise in a concert hall
is likely to be audible.

What ARE you on about ?

The s-n ratio concern you discounted initially. The PA should not be audible
by a person with normal hearing until it actually emits wanted sound.

In my experience that is indeed the case. I doubt that 45 dB SPL white noise
would be audible in a typical venue due to masking from ambient sounds.


You also discounted my use of VU's and PPM's as examples, they matter
because they are the instruments that by their properties define what
maximum peak level to cater for. The alteration of display mechanisms - be
it electronic or mechanical - are just that, line level practice is
unchanged.

You'll be hard pressed to find a genuine Bell spec VU or a BBC/EBU spec PPM on
almost any piece of equipment used in SR.

Graham

[Ron(UK)]

Eeyore wrote:

"Ron(UK)" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
"Mr.T" wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote

Good luck finding space to fit the switch :-)
Push-pull switch on a pot.
You know how unreliable they are?
Do you ?

Midas use clicky down switches on pots

Nothing wrong with that.

Well it`s ok once you know, or you can spend a while trying to figure
out how the routing works!

Ron

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:

and even if the clip meter lights due to someone turning way up on
stage , just bump it back a touch more
the lclip meter is not lighting at clipping
it starts to glow well before asny clipping is occouring

Absolutely NOT true of any mixer design I've ever seen and that's a
fair few.

On the old SM3000 it comes on 5 dB below clipping.

Graham


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Roy W. Rising[_2_]]

I've just read the last 24 hours' posts in this thread. I note that it
has, as often happens, devolved into a handful of folks with broad and
various experience haggling of minutiae. Those seriously interested in
understanding the topic were left in the dust sometime yesterday. I say,
"let's give it a rest"!

Oh ... let me add one useless comment. A PPM displays 90% of peaks of
duration 10ms or greater. That makes it useful for avoiding overload but I
find its ballistics unrelated to what I actually hear. In practice I use
whatever warning device is provided to stay out of trouble. Some places
the job title is "Audio Control Engineer". The keyword is "control".

Oh, dear! Here we go again!

--
~
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...
Eeyore wrote:

and even if the clip meter lights due to someone turning way up on
stage , just bump it back a touch more
the lclip meter is not lighting at clipping
it starts to glow well before asny clipping is occouring

Absolutely NOT true of any mixer design I've ever seen and that's a
fair few.

On the old SM3000 it comes on 5 dB below clipping.

Graham


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

the clip lights on outboard and the first red led are at minus 12 on the
ashley gear I have owned
george

[sam]

Eeyore wrote:

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote

But surely you understand the concept of design purpose?
What do you think?
I think you do, which makes it surprising to me that you think the 802 needs
PFL.

It was YOU who arbitrarily introduced the 802.

How about the Xenyx1222FX ? It has 6 mic inputs and no PFL
http://behringer.com/1222FX/index.cfm?lang=eng

Graham


The 1204 does though, I guess you just buy the feature set you need.

[Eeyore]

Peter Larsen wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

and even if the clip meter lights due to someone turning way up on
stage , just bump it back a touch more
the lclip meter is not lighting at clipping
it starts to glow well before asny clipping is occouring

Absolutely NOT true of any mixer design I've ever seen and that's a
fair few.

On the old SM3000 it comes on 5 dB below clipping.

George was suggesting they have brightness that varies with signal level. Not my
experience. To be of any use a clip light has to 'fire' before actual clipping
of course.

Graham

[Eeyore]

"Roy W. Rising" wrote:

I've just read the last 24 hours' posts in this thread. I note that it
has, as often happens, devolved into a handful of folks with broad and
various experience haggling of minutiae. Those seriously interested in
understanding the topic were left in the dust sometime yesterday. I say,
"let's give it a rest"!

Oh ... let me add one useless comment. A PPM displays 90% of peaks of
duration 10ms or greater. That makes it useful for avoiding overload but I
find its ballistics unrelated to what I actually hear.

That's because of its long 'decay' time.

You can design a peak reading meter to detect those peaks *better* than a movig
coil PPM and still give a reasonable idea of dynamics by using a short fall
time. That's actually what most modern LED ladder meters do.

Graham

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:

Peter Larsen wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

and even if the clip meter lights due to someone turning way up on
stage , just bump it back a touch more
the lclip meter is not lighting at clipping
it starts to glow well before asny clipping is occouring

Absolutely NOT true of any mixer design I've ever seen and that's a
fair few.

On the old SM3000 it comes on 5 dB below clipping.

George was suggesting they have brightness that varies with signal
level. Not my experience. To be of any use a clip light has to 'fire'
before actual clipping of course.

I too read him like that the first time around, but if they are anything
like the LED's action on the SM3000 then short threshold events are
perceived as not turning them completely on, not because they aren't fully
on, but because there is no hold circuit. With 5 dB lead ... and with the
mixer being operated in semi-darkness, not really an issue.

The LED's on the MR8HD acts the same way, but they seem to first come on at
0 dB full scale, so for them to be fully perceived the clip has to have a
duration that corresponds to 3+ dB of clipping. It could have been a
dramatically better device if they hadn't wasted development resources on
trying to cram a full production studio into it.

Graham


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u
wrote in message
...
So you don't understand the difference between
"metering" (as you originally
stated) and a simple clip "indicator" then.

No but they are metering

Thanks for proving my point, you don't know.

your point being what?
a clip light is a very rudimetairy meter

No, it's not a *meter* at all. Aren't you ashamed to
keep publishing your ignorance?
Ignorance is *not* always bliss you know.

it isa meter. a very basic meter
but still a meter

"Proof by constant assertion" is NOT actual proof.


arn't you ashamed to be so wrong in such a public forum

You're looking in the mirror again George.

Isn't it curious how two of the most self-insulting, volumnous and
illogical posters on the Usenet audio groups are named George? ;-)
Whereas THE worst is called Arny.

Phildo

[Roy W. Rising[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:
"Roy W. Rising" wrote:

I've just read the last 24 hours' posts in this thread. I note that it
has, as often happens, devolved into a handful of folks with broad and
various experience haggling over minutiae. Those seriously interested
in understanding the topic were left in the dust sometime yesterday. I
say, "let's give it a rest"!

Oh ... let me add one useless comment. A PPM displays 90% of peaks of
duration 10ms or greater. That makes it useful for avoiding overload
but I find its ballistics unrelated to what I actually hear.

That's because of its long 'decay' time.

Of course, but that's the official BBC/EBU gadget. I don't like it.

You can design a peak reading meter to detect those peaks *better* than a
movig coil PPM and still give a reasonable idea of dynamics by using a
short fall time. That's actually what most modern LED ladder meters do.

Graham

Because of the human affinity for angular motion, let the ladder be an arc.
I continue to prefer the VU meter [plus "approaching" and "near" peak LEDs
for those who still are learning to control levels. ;-)]

--
~
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

[Eeyore]

"Roy W. Rising" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
"Roy W. Rising" wrote:

I've just read the last 24 hours' posts in this thread. I note that it
has, as often happens, devolved into a handful of folks with broad and
various experience haggling over minutiae. Those seriously interested
in understanding the topic were left in the dust sometime yesterday. I
say, "let's give it a rest"!

Oh ... let me add one useless comment. A PPM displays 90% of peaks of
duration 10ms or greater. That makes it useful for avoiding overload
but I find its ballistics unrelated to what I actually hear.

That's because of its long 'decay' time.

Of course, but that's the official BBC/EBU gadget. I don't like it.

I'm not a fan of the slow fallback time myself.


You can design a peak reading meter to detect those peaks *better* than a
movig coil PPM and still give a reasonable idea of dynamics by using a
short fall time. That's actually what most modern LED ladder meters do.


Because of the human affinity for angular motion, let the ladder be an arc.

Some people have tried this but it never caught on.


I continue to prefer the VU meter [plus "approaching" and "near" peak LEDs
for those who still are learning to control levels. ;-)]

That's an interesting alternative. You don't see it much since VUs are now so
expensive.

Several times I've mused over the idea of a LED ladder where the VU and peak
style indications are 'overlaid'. The 'VU' sction might be say green and the
peak (which will always indicate higher except for a sinewave) in say orange.
It's very do-able but would cost more than one style only of course.

Graham

[Mr.T]

"Mickey" wrote in message
...
But it's not hard to make a globe last forever if you don't care about
light
output or efficiency.

And if you don't make a misstep or have a lightning strike or power surge.
I see many more units fail for those reasons than any others.

Easy to make a globe withstand anything bar a direct lightening strike, but
as I said you trade off both light output and efficiency. Not something
worth doing just to make the globe last forever!

MrT.

[Paul Stamler]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...

Several times I've mused over the idea of a LED ladder where the VU and
peak
style indications are 'overlaid'. The 'VU' sction might be say green and
the
peak (which will always indicate higher except for a sinewave) in say
orange.
It's very do-able but would cost more than one style only of course.

Keep this up and you'll have the Dorrough level meter.

Peace,
Paul

[Eeyore]

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Mickey" wrote

But it's not hard to make a globe last forever if you don't care about
light output or efficiency.

And if you don't make a misstep or have a lightning strike or power surge.
I see many more units fail for those reasons than any others.

Easy to make a globe withstand anything bar a direct lightening strike, but
as I said you trade off both light output and efficiency. Not something
worth doing just to make the globe last forever!

The word you're looking for is lightning btw (without an E).

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

"Phildo" wrote in message

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:27:11 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:



Marc Amsterdam wrote:

"Ron(UK)" wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

Phildo refers my comments, which was based on a
percentage of all mixers,
professional grade and not, including those
jillions of very small mixers
that one sees all over the place.

The only conflct is in Phildo's mind!


This argument is getting sillier by the day

This is not an argument...

Indeed. Arny is CORRECT that many mixers don't have
PFL. Just check out the
Behringer offerings since Phildo's so keen on the brand.

They have overload lights which is a form of PFL
metering.


Actually, many Berhinger mixers lack overload lights, as well.

This manual describes what is arguably Behringer's largest-selling line of
mixers.

http://www.behringerdownload.de/XENY..._ENG_Rev_A.pdf

This manual shows that as usual, Phildo is talking trash. None of the
stereo channels have clip lights. Only the mono channels have clip lights.

[Bob Howes]

"Phildo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Indeed. Arny is CORRECT that many mixers don't have
PFL. Just check out the
Behringer offerings since Phildo's so keen on the brand.

They have overload lights which is a form of PFL
metering.


Actually, many Berhinger mixers lack overload lights, as well.

Still doesn't make up 95% of mixing desks out there Arnold.

This manual describes what is arguably Behringer's largest-selling line
of mixers.

http://www.behringerdownload.de/XENY..._ENG_Rev_A.pdf

Oh look , the dimwit knows how to look up a website.

This manual shows that as usual, Phildo is talking trash. None of the
stereo channels have clip lights. Only the mono channels have clip
lights.

So they do actually have clip lights, just not on all the channels so they
do in fact have some form of PFL metering.

Skirt round the issue all you like Arnold, you claimed that 95% of mixing
desks did not have PFL metering. Now admit you were wrong, apologise and
move on like your lord tells you that you should do.

Phildo


It's worth pointing out that the Behringer Xenyx range is aimed mainly at
the home studio market, hence the USB audio interface for recording on a PC.
Clearly, some people are using the mixers live, but that's not what it was
designed for and explains a lot about the feature set Behringer included.

Bob

[Mr.T]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Actually, many Berhinger mixers lack overload lights, as well.

This manual describes what is arguably Behringer's largest-selling line of
mixers.

http://www.behringerdownload.de/XENY..._ENG_Rev_A.pdf

This manual shows that as usual, Phildo is talking trash. None of the
stereo channels have clip lights. Only the mono channels have clip lights.


geez Arny, Since those stereo channels have NO input trims, metering to set
something that is NOT even adjustable would seem a trifle overkill IMO.

MrT.

[Eeyore]

Bob Howes wrote:

"Phildo" wrote
"Arny Krueger" wrote

Indeed. Arny is CORRECT that many mixers don't have
PFL. Just check out the
Behringer offerings since Phildo's so keen on the brand.

They have overload lights which is a form of PFL
metering.

Actually, many Berhinger mixers lack overload lights, as well.

Still doesn't make up 95% of mixing desks out there Arnold.

This manual describes what is arguably Behringer's largest-selling line
of mixers.

http://www.behringerdownload.de/XENY..._ENG_Rev_A.pdf

Oh look , the dimwit knows how to look up a website.

This manual shows that as usual, Phildo is talking trash. None of the
stereo channels have clip lights. Only the mono channels have clip
lights.

So they do actually have clip lights, just not on all the channels so they
do in fact have some form of PFL metering.

Skirt round the issue all you like Arnold, you claimed that 95% of mixing
desks did not have PFL metering. Now admit you were wrong, apologise and
move on like your lord tells you that you should do.

It's worth pointing out that the Behringer Xenyx range is aimed mainly at
the home studio market, hence the USB audio interface for recording on a PC.
Clearly, some people are using the mixers live, but that's not what it was
designed for and explains a lot about the feature set Behringer included.

Most of the 'Eurorack' range also don't have PFL.

Graham