Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!

I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and
kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3"
softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a
Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome
tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm.

I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio
passive crossover boxes.

The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an
Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio
amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add
anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides
everything thats in the recording.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I
expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass
and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting
sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some
kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess
thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't
sound "real" to me.

I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio
speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me
searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can
do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon
to run on 12VDC, I would!)

Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has
some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the
rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine
extended-highs.)

(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.

What head unit are you using?

Tony


--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Brian" wrote in message
om...
Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!

I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and
kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3"
softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a
Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome
tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm.

I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio
passive crossover boxes.

The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an
Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio
amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add
anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides
everything thats in the recording.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I
expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass
and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting
sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some
kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess
thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't
sound "real" to me.

I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio
speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me
searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can
do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon
to run on 12VDC, I would!)

Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has
some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the
rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine
extended-highs.)

(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.

The head unit in my car is a Kenwood KDC-V7017. But for the
test/comparison I used a home preamp. An ADCOM top-of-the-line unit
that is Stereophile "Class A" rated. Its completely neutral sounding.

_________



"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message ...
What head unit are you using?

Tony

Adcom makes/has made car audio amplifiers. You could try one of them if
you like them. Might check ebay. Also check out the Diamond Audio D5 or
D7 amps.

Brandonb


Brian wrote:
The head unit in my car is a Kenwood KDC-V7017. But for the
test/comparison I used a home preamp. An ADCOM top-of-the-line unit
that is Stereophile "Class A" rated. Its completely neutral sounding.

_________



"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message ...

What head unit are you using?

Tony

Sounds like you need to talk to pete.

http://www.theautophile.com/

FHLH



"Brian" wrote in message
om...
Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!

I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and
kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3"
softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a
Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome
tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm.

I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio
passive crossover boxes.

The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an
Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio
amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add
anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides
everything thats in the recording.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I
expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass
and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting
sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some
kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess
thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't
sound "real" to me.

I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio
speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me
searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can
do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon
to run on 12VDC, I would!)

Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has
some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the
rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine
extended-highs.)

(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.

Now you're going to get all of the noobs in here telling you that all amps
sound the same.


In article ,
(Brian) wrote:
Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!

I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and
kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3"
softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a
Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome
tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm.

I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio
passive crossover boxes.

The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an
Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio
amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add
anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides
everything thats in the recording.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I
expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass
and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting
sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some
kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess
thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't
sound "real" to me.

I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio
speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me
searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can
do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon
to run on 12VDC, I would!)

Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has
some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the
rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine
extended-highs.)

(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.

Now you're going to get all of the noobs in here telling you that all amps
sound the same.

Howdy Doody, you are back. Bummer.
Most, those that have been here a few months, know that I am not a noob and I
say this; When you operate an amp within its' linear range any differences that
exist, and they do, are inaudible to the human ear.
That statement can be, and has been, proven several times over. Graphs, charts,
and actual scientific listening tests have proven it time and time again, yet
you insist that all of the scientific data is wrong and you are right. Provide
some sort of scientific evidence that we can actually hear the differences and
then someone might take you seriously.
Never forget the power of the brain to trick you, it is called physcoacoustics.
Oh and Howdy if your so good then why do you not take the challenge from Clark,
Puggy says he knows him so he can probably get you in.

Les
Right, because Howdy is always wrong.

In article , othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote:
Now you're going to get all of the noobs in here telling you that all amps
sound the same.

Howdy Doody, you are back. Bummer.
Most, those that have been here a few months, know that I am not a noob and I
say this; When you operate an amp within its' linear range any differences that
exist, and they do, are inaudible to the human ear.
That statement can be, and has been, proven several times over. Graphs, charts,
and actual scientific listening tests have proven it time and time again, yet
you insist that all of the scientific data is wrong and you are right. Provide
some sort of scientific evidence that we can actually hear the differences and
then someone might take you seriously.

Take me for what you will, I don't care. I can hear the difference between
amps and more so on the low end. The onboard processing that amps come with
now days set them apart more then ever in sound differences. I'm not the only
one with super human hearing, there are more of us that are in the wrong, that
shell out all kinds of money for pure class A and tube amps and such. We even
go through all kinds of amps until we find "the one" that takes a liking to
our super human hears. It's crazy, isn't it?


Never forget the power of the brain to trick you, it is called physcoacoustics.
Oh and Howdy if your so good then why do you not take the challenge from Clark,
Puggy says he knows him so he can probably get you in.

I'm in Canada, where is he?

Les
Right, because Howdy is always wrong.

If you say so, you go on being right and I'll go on being wrong. I'm totally
fine with that.

Howdy Doody, you are back. Bummer.
Most, those that have been here a few months, know that I am not a noob
and I
say this; When you operate an amp within its' linear range any
differences that
exist, and they do, are inaudible to the human ear.
That statement can be, and has been, proven several times over. Graphs,
charts,
and actual scientific listening tests have proven it time and time again,
yet
you insist that all of the scientific data is wrong and you are right.
Provide
some sort of scientific evidence that we can actually hear the
differences and
then someone might take you seriously.

Take me for what you will, I don't care. I can hear the difference between
amps and more so on the low end.

After you admitted to never performing a properly controlled test, your
statement is meaningless. I can hear the difference between amps too when I
don't perform the necessary controls. I think everyone can.

The onboard processing that amps come with
now days set them apart more then ever in sound differences. I'm not the
only
one with super human hearing, there are more of us that are in the wrong,
that
shell out all kinds of money for pure class A and tube amps and such. We
even
go through all kinds of amps until we find "the one" that takes a liking
to
our super human hears. It's crazy, isn't it?

Not really. If it makes you happy, go for it. You should, however, be
honest with yourself about it by acknowledging that the laws of physics
apply to your car too.

After you admitted to never performing a properly controlled test, your
statement is meaningless. I can hear the difference between amps too when I
don't perform the necessary controls. I think everyone can.

What necessary controls are you talking?




Not really. If it makes you happy, go for it. You should, however, be
honest with yourself about it by acknowledging that the laws of physics
apply to your car too.

I guess that the laws of physics apply to your car more then mine lol.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

That's odd. The frequency response of these two amps is identical.

It's called VOODOO Autosound....

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message

That's odd. The frequency response of these two amps is identical.

To me, the telling comments were these:

"just faithfully provides everything thats in the recording."

Q: How do you know? Were you present in the studio when it was mixed down?

and:

"there is absolutely no extended highs ("air") at all."

This, in an amp that is flat out to 50kHz and has usable bandwidth out
to 100kHz? Right...

last:

"From what I've read, I expected this amp to be the solution,"

There's a rich breeding ground for psychoacoustics if I ever saw one...

JD


fhlh002 wrote:

It's called VOODOO Autosound....

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message


That's odd. The frequency response of these two amps is identical.

"Frequency response" doesn't speak to sound quality. I and a good friend of
mine who sings for a living can make the same range of sound come out of our
bodies. However, anyone that thinks that that fact makes me a substitute for
him as a singer doesn't know music from sound.


"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

That's odd. The frequency response of these two amps is identical.

"Frequency response" doesn't speak to sound quality. I and a good friend
of
mine who sings for a living can make the same range of sound come out of
our
bodies. However, anyone that thinks that that fact makes me a substitute
for
him as a singer doesn't know music from sound.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Any signal, whether it's your voice or a
voltage or anything else, can be fully classified by its frequency and phase
response, and can actually be recreated just by knowing these two
parameters. The difference in your voices can be fully represented by
differences in the frequency domain. I suggest you do some introductory
reading on Fourier transforms.

Well, Brian, although I don't want to dismiss several other senior members'
tesimony about all amps sounding the same, I have to sympathize with you. I
too feel I can describe in detail the different qualites of different
amplifiers. I dunno...maybe this is physcoacoustics as Soundfreak suggests.
I still have a lot to learn, so who knows...maybe my opinion will change
over time..

So IN THE MEAN TIME I suggest you contact Pete Lufrano as FHLH suggested. I
belive he has experience with several of the amps you mentioned. I've heard
nothing but good things about Brax amplifiers, which he just happens to
sell. :-)

Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps. ZX
series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for years.
The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi
CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you
have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system
actively with the built-in PG xovers and it sounded a little artificial.
Some people I talked to seemed to believe that the Linkweitz Reilly (I know
I'm not spelling that right) xovers that PG uses are to blame for this. When
I ran the system using the Dyn passive xovers this didn't seem to be a
problem...although this presented another problem in that at higher volumes
it lost quite a bit of detail. I am currently in the process of getting the
360 set into my Maxima and I'll be running the 8-inch midwoofer actively and
using the Dyn passive xover for the tweets and mids. Kind of a balance
between the two problems I mentioned.

Well, more than you asked for. Hope it helps.

Tony



--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Brian" wrote in message
om...
Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!

I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and
kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3"
softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a
Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome
tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm.

I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio
passive crossover boxes.

The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an
Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio
amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add
anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides
everything thats in the recording.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I
expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass
and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting
sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some
kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess
thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't
sound "real" to me.

I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio
speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me
searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can
do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon
to run on 12VDC, I would!)

Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has
some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the
rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine
extended-highs.)

(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.

So IN THE MEAN TIME I suggest you contact Pete Lufrano as FHLH suggested.
I
belive he has experience with several of the amps you mentioned. I've
heard
nothing but good things about Brax amplifiers, which he just happens to
sell. :-)

If history is any indication, Peter will say "The president of Dynaudio uses
Brax. Why don't you?"

I doubt it was psychoacoustics, you probably drove your amp into clipping
(which is al ot easier to do than you might think) which is when they start
to sound different.


Paul Vina




"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message
...
Well, Brian, although I don't want to dismiss several other senior
members'
tesimony about all amps sounding the same, I have to sympathize with you.
I
too feel I can describe in detail the different qualites of different
amplifiers. I dunno...maybe this is physcoacoustics as Soundfreak
suggests.
I still have a lot to learn, so who knows...maybe my opinion will change
over time..

So IN THE MEAN TIME I suggest you contact Pete Lufrano as FHLH suggested.
I
belive he has experience with several of the amps you mentioned. I've
heard
nothing but good things about Brax amplifiers, which he just happens to
sell. :-)

Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps.
ZX
series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for years.
The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi
CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you
have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system
actively with the built-in PG xovers and it sounded a little artificial.
Some people I talked to seemed to believe that the Linkweitz Reilly (I
know
I'm not spelling that right) xovers that PG uses are to blame for this.
When
I ran the system using the Dyn passive xovers this didn't seem to be a
problem...although this presented another problem in that at higher
volumes
it lost quite a bit of detail. I am currently in the process of getting
the
360 set into my Maxima and I'll be running the 8-inch midwoofer actively
and
using the Dyn passive xover for the tweets and mids. Kind of a balance
between the two problems I mentioned.

Well, more than you asked for. Hope it helps.

Tony



--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or,
that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we
wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Brian" wrote in message
om...
Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!

I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and
kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3"
softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a
Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome
tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm.

I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio
passive crossover boxes.

The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an
Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio
amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add
anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides
everything thats in the recording.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I
expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass
and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting
sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some
kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess
thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't
sound "real" to me.

I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio
speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me
searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can
do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon
to run on 12VDC, I would!)

Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has
some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the
rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine
extended-highs.)

(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.

Holy ****, I forgot all about making this post, then I did a search
for Diamond Audio amps and it came up!

Thanks Tony (and everyone else) for your input. I'm going to check in
with Pete, as you suggested.

I tried a DLS Ultimate amp tonight (the A3 "dual mono") and, although
it lacked a little in the bass, the midrange and highs were great.
The best so far. (And those little pink elephants coming out of the
speakers were really neat too...) lol

But, seriously, the DLS amp was good ****. I heard this is similar in
design in certain respects to the Genesis amps that someone here had
recommended.

Someone else also sugested trying Audison VRx series, and Diamond D7
series. Yes, also Brax, Adcom (ebay), A/D/S, McIntosh and Xtant. I
only wish I had time to spend trying all these different amps out.
lol

If anyone has experience with any of these amps mentioned, please
comment. Perhaps some opinions could help narrow it down a bit.

btw, there is no doubt in my mind that different amps have their own
"sonic signatures" when playing actual music and driving an actual
speaker load.

Thanks again for all the great advice and suggestions.

-Brian
_________

"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message ...
Well, Brian, although I don't want to dismiss several other senior members'
tesimony about all amps sounding the same, I have to sympathize with you. I
too feel I can describe in detail the different qualites of different
amplifiers. I dunno...maybe this is physcoacoustics as Soundfreak suggests.
I still have a lot to learn, so who knows...maybe my opinion will change
over time..

So IN THE MEAN TIME I suggest you contact Pete Lufrano as FHLH suggested. I
belive he has experience with several of the amps you mentioned. I've heard
nothing but good things about Brax amplifiers, which he just happens to
sell. :-)

Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps. ZX
series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for years.
The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi
CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you
have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system
actively with the built-in PG xovers and it sounded a little artificial.
Some people I talked to seemed to believe that the Linkweitz Reilly (I know
I'm not spelling that right) xovers that PG uses are to blame for this. When
I ran the system using the Dyn passive xovers this didn't seem to be a
problem...although this presented another problem in that at higher volumes
it lost quite a bit of detail. I am currently in the process of getting the
360 set into my Maxima and I'll be running the 8-inch midwoofer actively and
using the Dyn passive xover for the tweets and mids. Kind of a balance
between the two problems I mentioned.

Well, more than you asked for. Hope it helps.

Tony



--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Brian" wrote in message
om...
Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!

I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and
kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3"
softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a
Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome
tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm.

I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio
passive crossover boxes.

The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an
Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio
amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add
anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides
everything thats in the recording.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I
expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass
and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting
sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some
kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess
thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't
sound "real" to me.

I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio
speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me
searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can
do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon
to run on 12VDC, I would!)

Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has
some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the
rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine
extended-highs.)

(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.

btw, there is no doubt in my mind that different amps have their own
"sonic signatures" when playing actual music and driving an actual
speaker load.

Well, of the list you provide, I have extensive experience with a/d/s/ (I
currently own 4 of them and have owned others too) and adcom. So I guess it
will disappoint you to hear that I've been unable to distinguish a
difference in "sonic signatures" between these and other amplifiers I used.
I guess that rules them out.

By the way, how are these "sonic signatures" coming about? Why do they
disappear when you bench test amplifiers driving actual loads? Are they
only peeking out when you're not measuring them, or have we still not
discovered some very important aspects about electricity that somehow causes
a speaker to move differently even when the signal isn't telling it to?

"Brian" wrote in message
m...

Someone else also sugested trying Audison VRx series, and Diamond D7
series. Yes, also Brax, Adcom (ebay), A/D/S, McIntosh and Xtant. I
only wish I had time to spend trying all these different amps out.
lol

If anyone has experience with any of these amps mentioned, please
comment. Perhaps some opinions could help narrow it down a bit.

btw, there is no doubt in my mind that different amps have their own
"sonic signatures" when playing actual music and driving an actual
speaker load.

it's funny that you mention Diamond those amps were developed by Esoteric
Audio before they went thru their things.

btw, there is no doubt in my mind that different amps have their own
"sonic signatures" when playing actual music and driving an actual
speaker load.


How many blind listening tests have you been involved in?
Nonetheless there are more important things to look for in an amp than being
concerned with SQ. But noobs have it in thier minds that if it does not have
that certain name on the front that it will not sound good. That is just not
the case, its an audio myth, perpetuated by manufactures and ignorance. Tell
me, how can you hear a lack of bass response when the amp in flat in your
hearing range? Or a lack of midrange or that "air". Your brain can play serious
tricks on you, and I think you have been duped.

Les

I haven't tried PG yet. What model (or series) can you suggest?
Whats their best stuff?




Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps. ZX
series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for years.
The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi
CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you
have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system
actively

Why don't you go to their site and find out for yourself seeing as no matter
how much good advice we give you, you still come to your own goofball
conclusions anyway.


Paul Vina



"Brian" wrote in message
om...
I haven't tried PG yet. What model (or series) can you suggest?
Whats their best stuff?




Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps.
ZX
series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for
years.
The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi
CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you
have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system
actively

Some people here have good avice. Thats the advice I follow. The few
others I will ignore.


"Paul Vina" wrote in message news:gISNb.79497$8H.115863@attbi_s03...
Why don't you go to their site and find out for yourself seeing as no matter
how much good advice we give you, you still come to your own goofball
conclusions anyway.


Paul Vina



"Brian" wrote in message
om...
I haven't tried PG yet. What model (or series) can you suggest?
Whats their best stuff?




Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps.
ZX
series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for
years.
The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi
CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you
have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system
actively

that is pretty funny Paul... But it is the way of the world..

Try hard to educate these goofballs and they still make
thier decision for no appearant reason...

Brian wrote:

Some people here have good avice. Thats the advice I follow. The few
others I will ignore.

"Paul Vina" wrote in message news:gISNb.79497$8H.115863@attbi_s03...
Why don't you go to their site and find out for yourself seeing as no matter
how much good advice we give you, you still come to your own goofball
conclusions anyway.

Brian wrote: "I haven't tried PG yet. What model (or series) can you
suggest? Whats their best stuff?"

The ZX series is now called their Titanium series I believe. I'm not sure
there's much of a difference. However, if you've been reading all the
posts, then there's not much difference between the Titanium series and a
Radio Shack Optimus amplifer. LOL

All kidding aside, Mark, Paul, Soundfreak and Eddie really know their stuff.
Maybe I'm just not ready to believe them yet (denial is wonderful). I
believe my ears...which is connected to my brain...and if my brain is
deceiving me then oh well. It's all good. I appreciate and respect their
advice.

I myself have been pondering Brax amplifiers. But I can't justify the money
and honestly, I love my PG amps.

Tony


--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Brian" wrote in message
om...
I haven't tried PG yet. What model (or series) can you suggest?
Whats their best stuff?




Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps.
ZX
series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for
years.
The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi
CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you
have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system
actively

But yet, none of them use Radio Shack Optimus amplifiers.


In article , "Tony Fernandes"
wrote:
Brian wrote: "I haven't tried PG yet. What model (or series) can you
suggest? Whats their best stuff?"

The ZX series is now called their Titanium series I believe. I'm not sure
there's much of a difference. However, if you've been reading all the
posts, then there's not much difference between the Titanium series and a
Radio Shack Optimus amplifer. LOL

All kidding aside, Mark, Paul, Soundfreak and Eddie really know their stuff.
Maybe I'm just not ready to believe them yet (denial is wonderful). I
believe my ears...which is connected to my brain...and if my brain is
deceiving me then oh well. It's all good. I appreciate and respect their
advice.

I myself have been pondering Brax amplifiers. But I can't justify the money
and honestly, I love my PG amps.

Tony

But yet, none of them use Radio Shack Optimus amplifiers.

They don't have any amps that have the feature set I want. My amp-buying
strategy was to buy the cheapest possible amp that has the features I
needed. I was after multichannel amplifiers that took up little space and
had the internal crossovers necessary to triamp my front component set and
biamp my rears. Hence, I ended up with used older amps off of ebay. I have
18 channels of amplification in my car, and spent $400 in total.

But yet, none of them use Radio Shack Optimus amplifiers.


You right. I can find an amp with the features I want for less. They do not
make a 5 channel amp, 4 channels of class AB and a channel of class D for the
sub.
I have owned all kinds of amps though, from Crunch to Phoenix Gold to Memphis.
There are WAY more important qualities to search for with an amp. Why do you
have a hard time understanding that?

Les

I didn't think Optimus was still making amps. Besides, they don't have any
that fit my needs when they did make them.



Paul Vina




"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
But yet, none of them use Radio Shack Optimus amplifiers.


In article , "Tony Fernandes"
wrote:
Brian wrote: "I haven't tried PG yet. What model (or series) can you
suggest? Whats their best stuff?"

The ZX series is now called their Titanium series I believe. I'm not
sure
there's much of a difference. However, if you've been reading all the
posts, then there's not much difference between the Titanium series and a
Radio Shack Optimus amplifer. LOL

All kidding aside, Mark, Paul, Soundfreak and Eddie really know their
stuff.
Maybe I'm just not ready to believe them yet (denial is wonderful). I
believe my ears...which is connected to my brain...and if my brain is
deceiving me then oh well. It's all good. I appreciate and respect
their
advice.

I myself have been pondering Brax amplifiers. But I can't justify the
money
and honestly, I love my PG amps.

Tony

"Brian" wrote in message
om...
Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!


(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.

I would add Genesis, LinearPower, a/d/s/, and....I can't think of my last
option.

I spoke with a principal at Dynaudio, who recommended Linear Power and
Brax reference amp.



I would add Genesis, LinearPower, a/d/s/, and....I can't think of my last
option.

"Brian" wrote in message
om...
I spoke with a principal at Dynaudio, who recommended Linear Power and
Brax reference amp.



I would add Genesis, LinearPower, a/d/s/, and....I can't think of my
last
option.

well then give them a look, who did you speak with??

So does anyone here like the US Amps products? I've looked in a couple of
them and they have a very solid design, at least the USA50HC, 100HC and the
2000X looked good.


--
Jammy Harbin
J & J Electronics, Inc
227 S. 4Th St.
Selmer, TN 38375
731-645-3311
"Tha Ghee" wrote in message
...
"Brian" wrote in message
om...
I spoke with a principal at Dynaudio, who recommended Linear Power and
Brax reference amp.



I would add Genesis, LinearPower, a/d/s/, and....I can't think of my
last
option.

well then give them a look, who did you speak with??

"ampdoc" wrote in message
...
So does anyone here like the US Amps products? I've looked in a couple of
them and they have a very solid design, at least the USA50HC, 100HC and
the
2000X looked good.


--
Jammy Harbin
J & J Electronics, Inc
227 S. 4Th St.
Selmer, TN 38375
731-645-3311

they're very good amps, only problem they're class A/B so you may need to
upgrade you elect. system. one last thing is that they are long like 20"+
so that is also a consideration for install purposes.

I spoke with Al.

I appologize for getting defensive to a few posts here. I do
appreciate and respect everyone's experience and opinion.

Its getting overwhelming trying to decide what amp to get. There's
just too many options out there. People keep suggesting more and more
different brands. There's just too many!!! Adcom, a/d/s, Audison,
Brax, Butler, Diamond, DLS, Genesis, LinearPower, McIntosh,
PhoenixGold, PPI, Xtant, Zapco...

If anyone has experience with any of these, please share your comments
as far as sound quality goes. (please name specific models) I
already tried Butler TDB-475, DLS Ultimate A3, PPI PCX-4125, and Zapco
C2K-6.0X.

Thank you.









I would add Genesis, LinearPower, a/d/s/, and....I can't think of my
last
option.

well then give them a look, who did you speak with??

Let's see, I've used Soundstream Granite 60.2, Rubicon 604 and 702, Rockford
Fosgate Punch 40dsm, Linear Power 992IQ and 652IQ, MTX 4300X, Kicker ZR600,
ZR360 and ZX460, Bazooka EL1500 and EL460 and JL Audio 300/4.
Thay've all done what I've wanted them to do. Somew were ballsier than
others but comparing a *rated* 600 watt amp against a *rated* 40 watt amp
would be stupid, so I won't do it. I used the Punch 40 for 3 10W6s and they
sounded awesome and I used the ZR600 on the same 10W6s in the same box and
they sounded great on that, just louder.


Paul Vina


If anyone has experience with any of these, please share your comments
as far as sound quality goes. (please name specific models) I
already tried Butler TDB-475, DLS Ultimate A3, PPI PCX-4125, and Zapco
C2K-6.0X.

Thank you.









I would add Genesis, LinearPower, a/d/s/, and....I can't think of my
last
option.

well then give them a look, who did you speak with??

"Brian" wrote in message
om...
I spoke with Al.

I appologize for getting defensive to a few posts here. I do
appreciate and respect everyone's experience and opinion.

Its getting overwhelming trying to decide what amp to get. There's
just too many options out there. People keep suggesting more and more
different brands. There's just too many!!! Adcom, a/d/s, Audison,
Brax, Butler, Diamond, DLS, Genesis, LinearPower, McIntosh,
PhoenixGold, PPI, Xtant, Zapco...

If anyone has experience with any of these, please share your comments
as far as sound quality goes. (please name specific models) I
already tried Butler TDB-475, DLS Ultimate A3, PPI PCX-4125, and Zapco
C2K-6.0X.

Thank you.

great guy, all those are great amps, I would take a few weeks, months and
look at all the amps you can. to see how they fit in the car, intergrate
with your system. The Butler is a tube amp you have to like the sound.
Nothing on the DLS amps but the mids/tweets are above average. PPI is PPI
not great, but will give you every watt you pay for. and the Zapco is a
class leader lots of power and features if you can find a pre-owned one you
found a deal if not it's a lot to bit off.

Im gonna recommend older hifonics VIII amps. I love my
odin/vulcan/jupiter setup for my highs. IMHO they seem to clip less
harshly when pushed to their limits. IMHO this is important with the
image dynamics horn conpression drivers I am running for front
soundstage, they can get harsh around 3200 Hz if the amplified signal is
not "clean".

I am one of those who cant hear an audible difference between amp
circuits when driven within their linear range. IMHO my profile CA 1200
sounds just as good as my hifonics amps when driven within its linear
range. So I think you should try and listen to as many amps as
possible, you may be pleasantly surprised. My profile is supposed to be
a Korean turd but IMHO it sounds good and has been very reliable the
past 2 years running @ 2 ohms.

Garrett

Brian wrote:

Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any
further!

I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and
kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3"
softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a
Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome
tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm.

I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio
passive crossover boxes.

The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an
Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio
amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add
anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides
everything thats in the recording.

Here's the amps I've tried so far:

PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass,
but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended
highs ("air") at all.

Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm
stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended
highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if
something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there.

Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I
expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass
and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting
sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some
kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess
thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't
sound "real" to me.

I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio
speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me
searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can
do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon
to run on 12VDC, I would!)

Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has
some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the
rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine
extended-highs.)

(4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory)

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you.