[Arny Krueger]

"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Sander deWaal wrote:

Eeyore said:

No studio equipment today would use such a deficient
design. In fact, the last time I saw studded attenutors
was in 1969 and they were being scrapped at that
time. No-one wanted to buy them since a P&G conductive
plastic fader was simply so much better.

Please define "better". ***grin***

LOL.

Well..... effectively infinite resolution for one thing
plus noiseless operation.

If you want all that, and resetability, then you want a digital attenuator.
Digitial attenuators like those on a 02R96 eclipse anything analog.

[Eeyore]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Sander deWaal wrote:

Eeyore said:

No studio equipment today would use such a deficient
design. In fact, the last time I saw studded attenutors
was in 1969 and they were being scrapped at that
time. No-one wanted to buy them since a P&G conductive
plastic fader was simply so much better.

Please define "better". ***grin***

LOL.

Well..... effectively infinite resolution for one thing
plus noiseless operation.

If you want all that, and resetability, then you want a digital attenuator.
Digitial attenuators like those on a 02R96 eclipse anything analog.

Digital attenuators have anything but infinite resolution.

There's the tiny matter of getting signal in and out of them plus controlling
the buggers too.

Give me a knob to turn for simplicity's sake any day.

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
in
message
Sander deWaal wrote:

Eeyore said:

No studio equipment today would use such a deficient
design. In fact, the last time I saw studded
attenutors was in 1969 and they were being scrapped
at that
time. No-one wanted to buy them since a P&G conductive
plastic fader was simply so much better.

Please define "better". ***grin***

LOL.

Well..... effectively infinite resolution for one thing
plus noiseless operation.

If you want all that, and resetability, then you want a
digital attenuator. Digitial attenuators like those on a
02R96 eclipse anything analog.

Digital attenuators have anything but infinite resolution.

Any step size that is well below human perception for loudness differences
(e.g. 0.1 dB) under ideal listening conditions seems to suffice. The ability
to readily get back to the right setting with that sort of precision is a
very nice tool.

Waiting for the day when home audio preamps have all-inclusive *scenes* and
good full parametric eq.

There's the tiny matter of getting signal in and out of
them plus controlling the buggers too.

They tell me that microprocessors and DSPs do well at this. ;-)

Give me a knob to turn for simplicity's sake any day.

Digital consoles usually have one glorious knob that you can use to adjust
just about anything.

[Iain Churches]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Iain Churches wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote

Actually, even if you buy from the most expensive maker
in the UK, a pair of transformers cost about the same as the
TKD variable attenuator, which for many is a standard
choice.

Whose standard ?

The people who want to have stepped attenuators of course.

That doesn't really answer the question.


There's *no way* a variable R costs as much as tapped transformers in
the
real world.

The TKD stereo attenuator costs about Euro 270 plus tax and shipping.
The transformers are about UKP 90 each. Not a lot of difference

Sounds to me like ripoff pricing.


I totally forgot to include the price of the 24 way switch required for use
with the transformer. The audiograde Elma 2x24 is about Euro 90
plus tax OEM but that cost probably fades into insignificance
compared with the cost of the machine-turned stainless steel
feet and the polished stone slab sides fitted to
the unit I was looking at just a few days ago:-))

Iain

[Iain Churches]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Sugden class A solid state amps had horrible heatsinks with
fins 10mm apart, about 50mm long, and running along the length
of the side of the box, and flat, like yours, and thus greatly reducing
any possible natural air flow.
They ran scorching hot, and MUCH hotter than if the same fin area was
mounted so the
fins were vertical, thus generating a much faster effective air flow,
such as in Quad 405.

The cooling stack is not as hot as you seem to imagine. One can put
ones hand on it quite comfortably, even after the amp has been running
on a hot summer's day.

So the way you have your heatsink provides compliance with safety regs,
but very poor
air flow, and lousy heat removal compared to what could have been
achieved with more
intelligent design of the metal work, ie, with radial but verical fins,
and an open mesh
cover over the lot, or no damn fins anywhere, and just a decent cage,

I have used cages many times before, and wanted to try something
different.This is a very good alternative. A professional tube amp builder
in Sweden has also used my idea, and done away with the conventional
cage.

but with lots of 6mm holes around where the tube sockets
BOLT SOLIDLY TO THE CHASSIS, and with well perforated bottom plate.
This allows air flow in through the bottom, and up around the tubes, and
out the mesh with very low restrictions.

The construction is better than you describe. The tube bases are
bolted to a sub chassis, which is itself bolted to the underneath of the
top plate, which has holes considerably larger than the diameter of the
tubes, to allow good cooling by convection. If there were a design flaw,
I think it would have shown up on one of these amps in the past
seven years.

In Oz where room temps are 30C on summer days often, good natural
cooling for amps is a MUST.

Same here. We also have 28C (yesterday for example) but many houses
have air-conditioning. For people with grand pianos, (as well as tube amps)
controlled temperature and humidity is a must. My music room is 20C
rock steady.

In early tubed electronics in aircraft, they had tubes clamped in metal
heat sinks, and exposed to cooling air flow.
As planes went higher and faster, they had to refrigerate the air flow
because speed increases air temp.
Failures of tubes become far more common if T is allowed to be high.
In domestic hi-fi, naked tubes but with surround holes for good airflow
and cage for safety is all thats needed,
and if buyers can see the tubes at night easily through the mesh covers
they won't remove them.

:-))) One rarely sees a tube amp in use with the cage fitted.

Iain

[Iain Churches]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Iain Churches wrote:

A high end dealer, a good friend of mine, tells me that he
thinks that PQ (perceived quality) is 40% of the purchasing
decision!

I don't doubt you (or him).

The question has to be, where do they get these ideas about perceived
value from
?

It's a nice con-trick whilst you can continue to play it.


I am told that this info has come as the result of quite
extensive research - asking customers what they
(think they) want. Very many, looking for a high end system,
are disappointed with what is generally on offer.

I find it very interesting to talk to (or rather listen to)
people. Try to get out of the cynical "he's an audiophool"
mentality, and actually listen to what they have to say.

For many, perceived value is not to be found in pressed
steel 1mm boxes or blue lit LED front panels, or drop through
mains and output transformers. There is, it seems, a healthy
niche market in hand-crafted high end tube amps. They don't
sell by the million, but then neither do Bentleys.


Iain

[John Byrns]

In article ,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

I am told that this info has come as the result of quite
extensive research - asking customers what they
(think they) want. Very many, looking for a high end system,
are disappointed with what is generally on offer.

I find it very interesting to talk to (or rather listen to)
people. Try to get out of the cynical "he's an audiophool"
mentality, and actually listen to what they have to say.

Of course there's also the flip side to that coin, the audiophool
attitude that dismisses the wants of the non audiophool as the misguided
desires of people with tin ears incapable of appreciating real quality.


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

[Arny Krueger]

"John Byrns" wrote in message


Of course there's also the flip side to that coin, the
audiophool attitude that dismisses the wants of the non
audiophool as the misguided desires of people with tin
ears incapable of appreciating real quality.

Invariably, people with that attitude can only *appreciate* what they
perceive to be real quality, if the equipment playing is correctly
identified to them.

[Iain Churches]

"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

I am told that this info has come as the result of quite
extensive research - asking customers what they
(think they) want. Very many, looking for a high end system,
are disappointed with what is generally on offer.

I find it very interesting to talk to (or rather listen to)
people. Try to get out of the cynical "he's an audiophool"
mentality, and actually listen to what they have to say.

Of course there's also the flip side to that coin, the audiophool
attitude that dismisses the wants of the non audiophool as the misguided
desires of people with tin ears incapable of appreciating real quality.

If you talk but never listen, you will learn nothing.
I am interested to hear the opinions of others, and to hear the
findings on which those opinions are based.
Though I must admit, when the topic comes
round to Shakti stones then it's time to leave:-)

Iain

[Arny Krueger]

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi
"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article
,
"Iain Churches" wrote:
I am told that this info has come as the result of quite
extensive research - asking customers what they
(think they) want. Very many, looking for a high end
system, are disappointed with what is generally on
offer. I find it very interesting to talk to (or rather listen
to) people. Try to get out of the cynical "he's an
audiophool" mentality, and actually listen to what they
have to say.

Of course there's also the flip side to that coin, the
audiophool attitude that dismisses the wants of the non
audiophool as the misguided desires of people with tin
ears incapable of appreciating real quality.

If you talk but never listen, you will learn nothing.

So what are you saying Iain, that you're the only one who has ears, or knows
how to listen?

I've personally watched any number of windbags puncture themselves when
obliged to detect differences using only their ears.

I am interested to hear the opinions of others, and to
hear the findings on which those opinions are based.

Sorry Iain that you haven't learnt that correlation doesn't necessarily
prove causuality.

Though I must admit, when the topic comes
round to Shakti stones then it's time to leave:-)

There are many who put tube magic in the same category.

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" said:


If you talk but never listen, you will learn nothing.


So what are you saying Iain, that you're the only one who has ears, or knows
how to listen?


Nope, I'm with Ian on this one, so there's at least 2 of us. ;-)


I've personally watched any number of windbags puncture themselves when
obliged to detect differences using only their ears.


Other stimuli can be of importance as well, as Iain tried to explain.


Though I must admit, when the topic comes
round to Shakti stones then it's time to leave:-)


There are many who put tube magic in the same category.


So suit yourself, Arns. Don't let the door hit you.

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -

[John Byrns]

In article ,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

I am told that this info has come as the result of quite
extensive research - asking customers what they
(think they) want. Very many, looking for a high end system,
are disappointed with what is generally on offer.

I find it very interesting to talk to (or rather listen to)
people. Try to get out of the cynical "he's an audiophool"
mentality, and actually listen to what they have to say.

Of course there's also the flip side to that coin, the audiophool
attitude that dismisses the wants of the non audiophool as the misguided
desires of people with tin ears incapable of appreciating real quality.

If you talk but never listen, you will learn nothing.
I am interested to hear the opinions of others, and to hear the
findings on which those opinions are based.
Though I must admit, when the topic comes
round to Shakti stones then it's time to leave:-)

What is a "Shakti stone"? I suppose I should Google it.


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

[Patrick Turner]

Iain Churches wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Sugden class A solid state amps had horrible heatsinks with
fins 10mm apart, about 50mm long, and running along the length
of the side of the box, and flat, like yours, and thus greatly reducing
any possible natural air flow.
They ran scorching hot, and MUCH hotter than if the same fin area was
mounted so the
fins were vertical, thus generating a much faster effective air flow,
such as in Quad 405.

The cooling stack is not as hot as you seem to imagine. One can put
ones hand on it quite comfortably, even after the amp has been running
on a hot summer's day.

So the way you have your heatsink provides compliance with safety regs,
but very poor
air flow, and lousy heat removal compared to what could have been
achieved with more
intelligent design of the metal work, ie, with radial but verical fins,
and an open mesh
cover over the lot, or no damn fins anywhere, and just a decent cage,

I have used cages many times before, and wanted to try something
different.This is a very good alternative. A professional tube amp builder
in Sweden has also used my idea, and done away with the conventional
cage.

but with lots of 6mm holes around where the tube sockets
BOLT SOLIDLY TO THE CHASSIS, and with well perforated bottom plate.
This allows air flow in through the bottom, and up around the tubes, and
out the mesh with very low restrictions.

The construction is better than you describe. The tube bases are
bolted to a sub chassis, which is itself bolted to the underneath of the
top plate, which has holes considerably larger than the diameter of the
tubes, to allow good cooling by convection. If there were a design flaw,
I think it would have shown up on one of these amps in the past
seven years.

The subchassis idea IS ok providing the air flow is good.
My 13E1 amps used this idea, and its a tube dissipating a total of
110watts.



In Oz where room temps are 30C on summer days often, good natural
cooling for amps is a MUST.

Same here. We also have 28C (yesterday for example) but many houses
have air-conditioning. For people with grand pianos, (as well as tube amps)
controlled temperature and humidity is a must. My music room is 20C
rock steady.

In early tubed electronics in aircraft, they had tubes clamped in metal
heat sinks, and exposed to cooling air flow.
As planes went higher and faster, they had to refrigerate the air flow
because speed increases air temp.
Failures of tubes become far more common if T is allowed to be high.
In domestic hi-fi, naked tubes but with surround holes for good airflow
and cage for safety is all thats needed,
and if buyers can see the tubes at night easily through the mesh covers
they won't remove them.

:-))) One rarely sees a tube amp in use with the cage fitted.

Its mainly because mesh cages are not supplied anymore.

And when you ask for a discount because there is not cage, they won't
give you one.

Patrick Turner.



Iain

[Iain Churches]

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" said:


If you talk but never listen, you will learn nothing.


So what are you saying Iain, that you're the only one who has ears, or
knows
how to listen?


Nope, I'm with Iain on this one, so there's at least 2 of us. ;-)

Unfortunately Arny has the poorest command of English
of anyone on this group, even though it is his first language. So we
must make allowances for him if he frequently "gets the wrong end
of the stick" Maybe he does it deliberately just to be controversial.
Who knows? Who cares? Not I:-))


I've personally watched any number of windbags puncture themselves when
obliged to detect differences using only their ears.


Other stimuli can be of importance as well, as Iain tried to explain.


Though I must admit, when the topic comes
round to Shakti stones then it's time to leave:-)


There are many who put tube magic in the same category.


So suit yourself, Arns. Don't let the door hit you.

Arny. Beneath your innocuous cloak of religion lays a
sanctimonious, insincere, pestilent, odious individual,
deviously working to undermine the quality of this group.
I would prefer that you do not reply to my posts so
that I do not need to have any contact with you
whatsoever. I hope I make myself clear.

Iain

[Iain Churches]

"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

I am told that this info has come as the result of quite
extensive research - asking customers what they
(think they) want. Very many, looking for a high end system,
are disappointed with what is generally on offer.

I find it very interesting to talk to (or rather listen to)
people. Try to get out of the cynical "he's an audiophool"
mentality, and actually listen to what they have to say.

Of course there's also the flip side to that coin, the audiophool
attitude that dismisses the wants of the non audiophool as the
misguided
desires of people with tin ears incapable of appreciating real quality.

If you talk but never listen, you will learn nothing.
I am interested to hear the opinions of others, and to hear the
findings on which those opinions are based.
Though I must admit, when the topic comes
round to Shakti stones then it's time to leave:-)

What is a "Shakti stone"? I suppose I should Google it.

You mean you don't use them John? :-)))
By Googling you will find some most interesting reviews.
It's a whole new world out there.LOL

Best regards
Iain

[Iain Churches]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi
"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article
,
"Iain Churches" wrote:
I am told that this info has come as the result of quite
extensive research - asking customers what they
(think they) want. Very many, looking for a high end
system, are disappointed with what is generally on
offer. I find it very interesting to talk to (or rather listen
to) people. Try to get out of the cynical "he's an
audiophool" mentality, and actually listen to what they
have to say.

Of course there's also the flip side to that coin, the
audiophool attitude that dismisses the wants of the non
audiophool as the misguided desires of people with tin
ears incapable of appreciating real quality.

If you talk but never listen, you will learn nothing.

So what are you saying Iain, that you're the only one who has ears, or
knows how to listen?

Read my statement again, Arny. In you eagerness to engage, your
poor comprehension of your native language has let you down badly
once again. I am, in this instance, talking about listening to people,
their views and opinions.


Iain

[John Byrns]

In article ,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

I am told that this info has come as the result of quite
extensive research - asking customers what they
(think they) want. Very many, looking for a high end system,
are disappointed with what is generally on offer.

I find it very interesting to talk to (or rather listen to)
people. Try to get out of the cynical "he's an audiophool"
mentality, and actually listen to what they have to say.

Of course there's also the flip side to that coin, the audiophool
attitude that dismisses the wants of the non audiophool as the
misguided
desires of people with tin ears incapable of appreciating real quality.

If you talk but never listen, you will learn nothing.
I am interested to hear the opinions of others, and to hear the
findings on which those opinions are based.
Though I must admit, when the topic comes
round to Shakti stones then it's time to leave:-)

What is a "Shakti stone"? I suppose I should Google it.

You mean you don't use them John? :-)))
By Googling you will find some most interesting reviews.
It's a whole new world out there.LOL

I found that they weren't exactly what I supposed they were, given the
name I expected that they were little more than actual stones, but they
seem to be something different/more.


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

[Arny Krueger]

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
ti.fi

Arny. Beneath your innocuous cloak of religion lays a
sanctimonious, insincere, pestilent, odious individual,
deviously working to undermine the quality of this group.

Wow Iain, I really pale in comparison to a person that is overflowing with
love and humility such as yourself.

[Arny Krueger]

"John Byrns" wrote in message

In article
,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article
,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article
,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

I am told that this info has come as the result of
quite extensive research - asking customers what they
(think they) want. Very many, looking for a high
end system, are disappointed with what is generally
on offer.

I find it very interesting to talk to (or rather
listen to) people. Try to get out of the cynical
"he's an audiophool" mentality, and actually listen
to what they have to say.

Of course there's also the flip side to that coin,
the audiophool attitude that dismisses the wants of
the non audiophool as the misguided
desires of people with tin ears incapable of
appreciating real quality.

If you talk but never listen, you will learn nothing.
I am interested to hear the opinions of others, and to
hear the findings on which those opinions are based.
Though I must admit, when the topic comes
round to Shakti stones then it's time to leave:-)

What is a "Shakti stone"? I suppose I should Google it.

You mean you don't use them John? :-)))
By Googling you will find some most interesting reviews.
It's a whole new world out there.LOL

I found that they weren't exactly what I supposed they
were, given the name I expected that they were little
more than actual stones, but they seem to be something
different/more.

I don't think they are natual stones, but instead pieces of ferrite. No
matter, they are the kind of snake oil that one might associate with Iain.

[Iain Churches]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
ti.fi

Arny. Beneath your innocuous cloak of religion lays a
sanctimonious, insincere, pestilent, odious individual,
deviously working to undermine the quality of this group.

Wow Iain, I really pale in comparison to a person that is overflowing with
love and humility such as yourself.

I have no time for insincerity and hypocrisy, particularly
when it is cloaked in religion, so the less I have to do
with a person like yourself, the happier I shall be, unless
you make some relevant contribution to this NG and give
up your obvious agenda. Expectations are low.

Iain

[Arny Krueger]

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
ti.fi

I have no time for insincerity and hypocrisy,


Then how do you live with yourself, Iain?