I used to say that RAT was the best NG on the net. This used to be a
place to come and get help, share ideas, help others, etc. It had a
great vibe. Now RAT has degenerated into a petty little land of wars
between petty people. Who needs all of this petty bull ****? Obviously
some people do. I used to think that moderated news group suck, but now
I understand why some news groups want to be moderated. It keeps the
idiots out who have nothing better to do in life than talk about someone
who ****ed down their leg or whose leg they are currently ****ing on.
Everyone is somehow a victim and wants to whine like a bunch of 3 year
olds at nap time in kindergarden. God this place sucks now because of
the idiots.

Mark wrote:
I used to say that RAT was the best NG on the net. This used to be a

place to come and get help, share ideas, help others, etc. It had a
great vibe. Now RAT has degenerated into a petty little land of wars

between petty people. Who needs all of this petty bull ****?
Obviously
some people do. I used to think that moderated news group suck, but
now
I understand why some news groups want to be moderated. It keeps the

idiots out who have nothing better to do in life than talk about
someone
who ****ed down their leg or whose leg they are currently ****ing on.

Everyone is somehow a victim and wants to whine like a bunch of 3
year
olds at nap time in kindergarden. God this place sucks now because of

the idiots.

It's been pretty bad lately. I'm still lurking, bookmarking tech
threads I can learn from. The next step is printing hardcopies of
individual posts in these threads and saving them. Twice filtered, I
can forget the invective.

Are there any decent moderated NG for tube designed amps out there?

"Dances With Sockpuppets" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mark wrote:
I used to say that RAT was the best NG on the net. This used to be a

place to come and get help, share ideas, help others, etc. It had a
great vibe. Now RAT has degenerated into a petty little land of wars

between petty people. Who needs all of this petty bull ****?
Obviously
some people do. I used to think that moderated news group suck, but
now
I understand why some news groups want to be moderated. It keeps the

idiots out who have nothing better to do in life than talk about
someone
who ****ed down their leg or whose leg they are currently ****ing on.

Everyone is somehow a victim and wants to whine like a bunch of 3
year
olds at nap time in kindergarden. God this place sucks now because of

the idiots.

It's been pretty bad lately. I'm still lurking, bookmarking tech
threads I can learn from. The next step is printing hardcopies of
individual posts in these threads and saving them. Twice filtered, I
can forget the invective.

valves wrote:
Are there any decent moderated NG for tube designed amps out there?

http://geek.scorpiorising.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl

This site's pretty good. Don't let the url fool you. It's hosted in
Canada, not Poland. Not that there's anything wrong with Poland.

"Dances With Sockpuppets" wrote in
oups.com:


Mark wrote:
I used to say that RAT was the best NG on the net. This used to be a

place to come and get help, share ideas, help others, etc. It had a
great vibe. Now RAT has degenerated into a petty little land of wars

between petty people. Who needs all of this petty bull ****?
Obviously
some people do. I used to think that moderated news group suck, but
now
I understand why some news groups want to be moderated. It keeps the

idiots out who have nothing better to do in life than talk about
someone
who ****ed down their leg or whose leg they are currently ****ing on.

Everyone is somehow a victim and wants to whine like a bunch of 3
year
olds at nap time in kindergarden. God this place sucks now because of

the idiots.

It's been pretty bad lately. I'm still lurking, bookmarking tech
threads I can learn from. The next step is printing hardcopies of
individual posts in these threads and saving them. Twice filtered, I
can forget the invective.


I miss Fred.

What we are witnessing in the slow, agonizing death of Usenet. I have been
on Usenet since about 1986. Watched it climb up and up and ever since the
commercialization of the Internet, it has slowly degraded into a virtual
quagmire of the mentally ill, mentally deficient, and the anti-social. Why
do the misfits come here? For the first time in their lives they have
someone that will listen to their rants and lies. There are a few pockets
left where people actually are for the most part intelligent. RAT was one
of those places.

The biggest mistake made was to gateway usenet to a web page. It should
have never been done.

Somehow I envision the future of Usenet as being the playground for 11 year
olds all arguing over who's fill in the blank is better. We certainly
have at least one or two now. I the future has arrived.

r



--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.

"Mark" wrote in message
.. .
I used to say that RAT was the best NG on the net. This used to be a
place to come and get help, share ideas, help others, etc. It had a
great vibe. Now RAT has degenerated into a petty little land of wars
between petty people. Who needs all of this petty bull ****? Obviously
some people do. I used to think that moderated news group suck, but now
I understand why some news groups want to be moderated. It keeps the
idiots out who have nothing better to do in life than talk about someone
who ****ed down their leg or whose leg they are currently ****ing on.
Everyone is somehow a victim and wants to whine like a bunch of 3 year
olds at nap time in kindergarden. God this place sucks now because of
the idiots.

All your points well taken. Some individuals certainly suffer from "The
Green Eyed Monster." It seems the more knowledgably you are, the more darts
are thrown at you. That's in all of life. Jealousy is a stinking affliction
that affects many.
Conversely, if you want to discuss tube (valve) matters, where are you going
to find a better place? RATs, warts and all, is still #1 in my book. Let's
not abandon her.
Cordially,
west

"Mark" wrote in message
.. .
I used to say that RAT was the best NG on the net. This used to be a place
to come and get help, share ideas, help others, etc. It had a great vibe.
Now RAT has degenerated into a petty little land of wars between petty
people. Who needs all of this petty bull ****? Obviously some people do.
I used to think that moderated news group suck, but now I understand why
some news groups want to be moderated. It keeps the idiots out who have
nothing better to do in life than talk about someone who ****ed down their
leg or whose leg they are currently ****ing on. Everyone is somehow a
victim and wants to whine like a bunch of 3 year olds at nap time in
kindergarden. God this place sucks now because of the idiots.


Like every group, RAT seems to have its ups and downs, and we
are certainly going through a very bad patch at the moment.

There are people here with no interest whatsoever in valve/tube
audio whose sole purpose seems to be to disrupt our group,
ridicule the subject that interests us, and drag the level down
to that of a bar-room brawl. Whether or not we allow this to
happen is totally in our hands.

The worst scenario would be if the real, interested participants
in this group withdraw. This has happened on other groups
that have had similar problems. It is interesting to note that
recently there has been an influx of good people from such
a group to RAT, so this can perhaps be regarded as a positive
thing for us.

But, poor behaviour within a group keeps away many good
people who would otherwise participate and have something
of value to say. I know of several such individuals.

The best scenario will be if we continue to establish interesting
tube related threads (Andre's transmitter tube thread, and Jon's
phase splitter thread are both good example) and ignore the
would-be agitators who have no genuine interest in our topics
anyway. There will then be no reason for them to stay.

Iain

"valves" wrote in news:utSdnTK4bpdZYKXfRVn-
:

Are there any decent moderated NG for tube designed amps out there?

This is a good one
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/archive/
which has a section devoted to valves, and (thanks to moderators) is not
bedevilled by the toilet mouths that infest this place.
Unfortunately killfiles only go so far, and do not solve the problem of
those who feed the troll.
M
(Think back to the good times when personalities such as Fred set the tone
of the group)

"Mike Diack" wrote in message
.. .

(Think back to the good times when personalities such as Fred set the tone
of the group)

No point in looking in retrospect Mike. We have to look
at the current situation, and decide how it be corrected.

Iain

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:57:24 +0200, "Iain M Churches"
wrote:


"Mike Diack" wrote in message
. ..

(Think back to the good times when personalities such as Fred set the tone
of the group)

No point in looking in retrospect Mike. We have to look
at the current situation, and decide how it be corrected.

Iain


This isn't a moderated group, so there can be no such thing as
correction.

Personally, I try to avoid the worst kinds of invective, and tend to
be either helpful or joking, as the occasion demands.

But I have to say that mixed in with the "good" tube talk on this ng,
there is a great deal of nonsense that borders on religious mania. Non
tubies will, of course, jump on this, but it would defuse the flames
considerably if some of the tubies would realise that it is not
sacrilegious to contradict something said by another tubie when they
can see it is plain wrong. You won't get thrown out of the club.

It is for the tubies to make this into a real ng with real
discussions, not a mutual congratulation society.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

This isn't a moderated group, so there can be no such thing as
correction.

Of course we can correct the situation - by modifying our own
behavour. A moderated group is not a pre-requisite for this
to happen. But I am beginning to see why so many are
drawn to moderated and also to closed groups, access to
which is by invitation only.

Personally, I try to avoid the worst kinds of invective, and tend to
be either helpful or joking, as the occasion demands.

That seems an excellent approach. But written text can
be (and is) often wrongly misconstrued, even with the
use of a smiley:-) This does not happen so easily at
"round table discussions"

It is for the tubies to make this into a real ng with real
discussions, not a mutual congratulation society.

Does it strike you as such? I find it an excellent forum for
the exchange of knowledge, experience and ideas, and I for
one am grateful for those who really know about tube audio
and give their time and advice so generously here.

RAT has always been an excellent group, but the presence of a
few individuals, who, it seems, have not real interest in valve/
tube audio, but love a good slanging match, badly effects the
SNR.

Iain








d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Mark wrote:

I used to say that RAT was the best NG on the net. This used to be a
place to come and get help, share ideas, help others, etc. It had a
great vibe. Now RAT has degenerated into a petty little land of wars
between petty people. Who needs all of this petty bull ****? Obviously
some people do. I used to think that moderated news group suck, but now
I understand why some news groups want to be moderated. It keeps the
idiots out who have nothing better to do in life than talk about someone
who ****ed down their leg or whose leg they are currently ****ing on.
Everyone is somehow a victim and wants to whine like a bunch of 3 year
olds at nap time in kindergarden. God this place sucks now because of
the idiots.

Just about every news group is "worse" in the manner you described.
Its the real worl, really, it is.
People say as they feel or think, no holds barred.
The Net faecilitates that.

Now just what interesting technical subject would you like to discuss
rationally, and without passion?

Patrick Turner.

R wrote:

"Dances With Sockpuppets" wrote in
oups.com:


Mark wrote:
I used to say that RAT was the best NG on the net. This used to be a

place to come and get help, share ideas, help others, etc. It had a
great vibe. Now RAT has degenerated into a petty little land of wars

between petty people. Who needs all of this petty bull ****?
Obviously
some people do. I used to think that moderated news group suck, but
now
I understand why some news groups want to be moderated. It keeps the

idiots out who have nothing better to do in life than talk about
someone
who ****ed down their leg or whose leg they are currently ****ing on.

Everyone is somehow a victim and wants to whine like a bunch of 3
year
olds at nap time in kindergarden. God this place sucks now because of

the idiots.

It's been pretty bad lately. I'm still lurking, bookmarking tech
threads I can learn from. The next step is printing hardcopies of
individual posts in these threads and saving them. Twice filtered, I
can forget the invective.


I miss Fred.

What we are witnessing in the slow, agonizing death of Usenet. I have been
on Usenet since about 1986. Watched it climb up and up and ever since the
commercialization of the Internet, it has slowly degraded into a virtual
quagmire of the mentally ill, mentally deficient, and the anti-social. Why
do the misfits come here? For the first time in their lives they have
someone that will listen to their rants and lies.

I have known news groups for only 5 years, and noticed no increase in the
dickhead factor.

If you want to go to a moderated group like rec.audio.high-end,
your'e welcome, but the pomposity and BS and arguing as opposed to discussion
is
all the same, just not as much swearing and cursing, and you have delays, and
can be
banned, or moderated off.
I found RAHE quite a stiffling place to be.

There are a few pockets
left where people actually are for the most part intelligent. RAT was one
of those places.

It still is exactly that, but only if *YOU* make sure it stays that way
with your continual stream of pertinent, intelligent, polite, and informative
posts.

I don't blame the group for what it has become, or what it is.
It just is what it is, period.




The biggest mistake made was to gateway usenet to a web page. It should
have never been done.

Somehow I envision the future of Usenet as being the playground for 11 year
olds all arguing over who's fill in the blank is better. We certainly
have at least one or two now. I the future has arrived.

Please don't complain if you cannot make it better yourself.

Patrick Turner.


--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.

Iain M Churches wrote:

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

This isn't a moderated group, so there can be no such thing as
correction.

Of course we can correct the situation - by modifying our own
behavour. A moderated group is not a pre-requisite for this
to happen. But I am beginning to see why so many are
drawn to moderated and also to closed groups, access to
which is by invitation only.

Personally, I try to avoid the worst kinds of invective, and tend to
be either helpful or joking, as the occasion demands.

That seems an excellent approach. But written text can
be (and is) often wrongly misconstrued, even with the
use of a smiley:-) This does not happen so easily at
"round table discussions"

It is for the tubies to make this into a real ng with real
discussions, not a mutual congratulation society.

Does it strike you as such? I find it an excellent forum for
the exchange of knowledge, experience and ideas, and I for
one am grateful for those who really know about tube audio
and give their time and advice so generously here.

RAT has always been an excellent group, but the presence of a
few individuals, who, it seems, have not real interest in valve/
tube audio, but love a good slanging match, badly effects the
SNR.

Iain

Pinky loathes tubes, and why he is here is a mystery, if it isn't just
be sadistic, like the dudes who turn up at rec.sailing.yachts
and spend all their time telling the locals they should
cut their masts doun, remove lead from keels, and install a Perkins
Diesel,
or a chevvy V8.

He should retire gracefully, since he has ZERO idea about tube craft,
but he's addicted to prod us all, and smote us with fiery statements of
invective which have not even a candle's power.

Some how he thinks we'll all start building SS amps, even
ones a little bit simple, with the enthusiasm that many did in 1969
when ppl began to dump their worn out tube amps
and get real with the new cool SS rubbish.

Eventually, he must tire, since there is almost not a single new thing
coming from his mind,
and we all know he hates tubes, and it leaves him in a stranded position.

Much is discussed at rat about issues other than tubes, such as ESL,
power supplies, and things with common electronic engineering
issues, and if it wasn't for the killer sharks out there the seas at rat
would be clogged with a
schoals of BS artists saying all manner of things that are simply plain
wrong,
and getting away with it.
There are far more lurkers and arm chair solderers than real doers who
post
because the former don't really know all that much.
How could they, they stay in their chairs, doing nothing.

The group is only "better" when folks get busy and complete projects,
and are prepared to criticize their own work and make pertinent
observations.

Meanwhile, apart from the Pinky noise, and other minor
sizzles, pops, and scratch noises from others, the group continues to
operate as an adice giving forum, so stop damn well winging.


Patrick Turner.




d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:59:03 +0000, R wrote:

snip

What we are witnessing in the slow, agonizing death of Usenet. I have been

Only through its users...


The biggest mistake made was to gateway usenet to a web page. It should
have never been done.


Even with web access the vast majority of internet users don't even know
what usenet is - never mind how to use it.

Somehow I envision the future of Usenet as being the playground for 11
year olds all arguing over who's fill in the blank is better. We
certainly have at least one or two now. I the future has arrived.


Don't panic! If we don't let other people in how will the group continue?
Even some of the most obnoxious people don't stay that way for ever. Only
new blood can keep usenet alive.

Having said that, some of the older element have a tendency to act like
ancient university professors, continually tearing into each other over
minor disagreements. ;-) That isn't the same problem though!

IMHO the future of usenet is going to be controlled by something else
entirely - complete removal of all major and public binary servers because
of general piracy issues (and because of the cost of running binary
servers the ISPs won't put up much of a fight). You may see it back to a
text-only system before all that long!

--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Web: http://projectedsound.tk

SNIPT

Everyone is somehow a victim and wants to whine like a bunch of 3 year
olds at nap time in kindergarden. God this place sucks now because of
the idiots.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR - WOOOOOOF - WOOOOOOOF

Not to make light but I agree. There is still all the good and anything
I ask is so professionally / technically answered. And I don't read all
the ugly stuff but just by seeing some of the titles It's obvious that
there is some pretty ugly stuff going on here that if it were face to
face not electonic I'm sure would never happen.

mick wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:59:03 +0000, R wrote:

snip

What we are witnessing in the slow, agonizing death of Usenet. I have been

Only through its users...


The biggest mistake made was to gateway usenet to a web page. It should
have never been done.


Even with web access the vast majority of internet users don't even know
what usenet is - never mind how to use it.

Somehow I envision the future of Usenet as being the playground for 11
year olds all arguing over who's fill in the blank is better. We
certainly have at least one or two now. I the future has arrived.


Don't panic! If we don't let other people in how will the group continue?
Even some of the most obnoxious people don't stay that way for ever. Only
new blood can keep usenet alive.

Having said that, some of the older element have a tendency to act like
ancient university professors, continually tearing into each other over
minor disagreements. ;-) That isn't the same problem though!

IMHO the future of usenet is going to be controlled by something else
entirely - complete removal of all major and public binary servers because
of general piracy issues (and because of the cost of running binary
servers the ISPs won't put up much of a fight). You may see it back to a
text-only system before all that long!

Fairly well said, imho.

The majority of ISPs I now have had to get service out of
don't have continual up to to the minute refreshing of the posting lists,
and are often hours, days, or weeks behind.
Its a real turn off to anyone wanting to join in
discussions where ppl can talk with no posting delays, as
JS and I have during the last hour.

I used to get good free access to all usernet groups, but its already
become very patchy, with text only groups delayed by 2 hours at least,
and binary groups such as ABSE and ABPR all quite unusable, unless its porno,
which works fine.

In the 5 years since I began the guys at the ISPs have forgotten how to set up
servers,
and can't provide the service, and can't get news feeds with continual
stream of new postings.

I have been getting a good feed of text only groups via news.individual.net
which works out of Berlin uni, and it's been free subscription, but after 31
march I have to
start paying, since they say they cannot continue to provide their 250,000
subscribers for free.

But net access used to be $35 for 300 MB/mth, now its $22 for 1.5 GB,
so although usernet service was free and good, I have lower data costs
but with lousy usernet, so I will have to pay a news service.

There are quite a few news service providers who are specialists and who make a
buck
by keeping folks on the road.

Most are not all that cheap, and I'd prefer to seek a free service if there is
one,
as I get by without binaries OK.

So, where is an alternative *free* news service which at least carries text only
groups?

Anyone know?

Patrick Turner.





--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Web: http://projectedsound.tk

Ozzy 2005 wrote:

SNIPT

Everyone is somehow a victim and wants to whine like a bunch of 3 year
olds at nap time in kindergarden. God this place sucks now because of
the idiots.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR - WOOOOOOF - WOOOOOOOF

Not to make light but I agree. There is still all the good and anything
I ask is so professionally / technically answered. And I don't read all
the ugly stuff but just by seeing some of the titles It's obvious that
there is some pretty ugly stuff going on here that if it were face to
face not electonic I'm sure would never happen.

I am sure worse than you imagine would happen if certain individuals were
able to debate together, around a table, regardless of whatever was being
discussed.

The net allows folks to be utterly obscene, as rude and and arsolic as
humanly possible,
and folks either get used to that noise, kill file the offender, or
ignore them or give them a taste of their own medicine.
Those options are not always possible in the real world, and
there can be blood on the carpet easy.

I have been to some public meetings of residents in my local area,
to discuss local issues with them and with reps from local governent,
and its a very hot atmosphere, with a few getting mightilly ****ed off.

I'd not like to have to do that everyday, but here I get to post what
say and without the angst, since i rarely get upset any more.

And a record remains behind.

If there are 3 ppl listening, or reading some of what I post, I am happy.

Forget table talks, fireside chats, they rarely lead anywhere,
unless she's very good looking and eager to please....

Patrick Turner.

"Dances With Sockpuppets" wrote in message
oups.com...
|
| valves wrote:
| Are there any decent moderated NG for tube designed amps out there?
|
| http://geek.scorpiorising.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl
|
| This site's pretty good. Don't let the url fool you. It's hosted in
| Canada, not Poland. Not that there's anything wrong with Poland.
|

that board stinks

Iain M Churches wrote:
No point in looking in retrospect Mike. We have to look
at the current situation, and decide how it be corrected.

Iain

Send Joe Pesci over to smash Phil's computer and then to duct tape
Jute's hands to his mouth. That would stop 99% of the bull**** here.


Adam

"Mark" wrote in message
.. .
I used to say that RAT was the best NG on the net. This used to be a place
to come and get help, share ideas, help others, etc. It had a great vibe.
Now RAT has degenerated into a petty little land of wars between petty
people. Who needs all of this petty bull ****? Obviously some people do.
I used to think that moderated news group suck, but now I understand why
some news groups want to be moderated. It keeps the idiots out who have
nothing better to do in life than talk about someone who ****ed down their
leg or whose leg they are currently ****ing on. Everyone is somehow a
victim and wants to whine like a bunch of 3 year olds at nap time in
kindergarden. God this place sucks now because of the idiots.



hey, I know!

how about you kiss my ass?


crybaby wussie!

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:19:56 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:

Pinky loathes tubes, and why he is here is a mystery,

I don't loathe tubes, they're simply an anachronism. Why I am here is
to correct false assumptions and wild claims. Andre Jute however,
cannot stand criticism, and turned it into an ad hominem flame war.

if it isn't just
be sadistic, like the dudes who turn up at rec.sailing.yachts
and spend all their time telling the locals they should
cut their masts doun, remove lead from keels, and install a Perkins
Diesel,
or a chevvy V8.

The only *real* speedboat has a pair of Corvette engines.

He should retire gracefully, since he has ZERO idea about tube craft,
but he's addicted to prod us all, and smote us with fiery statements of
invective which have not even a candle's power.

Some how he thinks we'll all start building SS amps, even
ones a little bit simple, with the enthusiasm that many did in 1969
when ppl began to dump their worn out tube amps
and get real with the new cool SS rubbish.

Not at all, but I will continue to point out obvious errors - such as
the suggestion that tubes somehow retain something which is lost by SS
amps. The *truth* is of course that - where there actually is an
audible difference - it is caused by *added* artifacts from tube amps.

Eventually, he must tire, since there is almost not a single new thing
coming from his mind,
and we all know he hates tubes, and it leaves him in a stranded position.

The Laws of Physics are unlikely to change in the immediate future,
and what's new about triodes?

Much is discussed at rat about issues other than tubes, such as ESL,
power supplies, and things with common electronic engineering
issues, and if it wasn't for the killer sharks out there the seas at rat
would be clogged with a
schoals of BS artists saying all manner of things that are simply plain
wrong,
and getting away with it.

Exactly! :-)

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:19:56 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:

Pinky loathes tubes, and why he is here is a mystery,

I don't loathe tubes, they're simply an anachronism.

Your statement here explains your attitude.
Most of us here don't think tubes are an anachronism,
and feel such terms to be insulting.

Why I am here is
to correct false assumptions and wild claims. Andre Jute however,
cannot stand criticism, and turned it into an ad hominem flame war.

Well you are the one to have some of your claims be found to be BS.

You don't build tube amps, you don't want to really be part of the
life of the group.
You don't belong here.

You just float around spotting faults, and to most folks you are as popular as
a
parking inspector, a tax collector, a moslem in a synagog.
Is there a single thing you can suggest to improve tubecraft,
other than tell us to use transistors?



if it isn't just
be sadistic, like the dudes who turn up at rec.sailing.yachts
and spend all their time telling the locals they should
cut their masts doun, remove lead from keels, and install a Perkins
Diesel,
or a chevvy V8.

The only *real* speedboat has a pair of Corvette engines.

He should retire gracefully, since he has ZERO idea about tube craft,
but he's addicted to prod us all, and smote us with fiery statements of
invective which have not even a candle's power.

Some how he thinks we'll all start building SS amps, even
ones a little bit simple, with the enthusiasm that many did in 1969
when ppl began to dump their worn out tube amps
and get real with the new cool SS rubbish.

Not at all, but I will continue to point out obvious errors - such as
the suggestion that tubes somehow retain something which is lost by SS
amps. The *truth* is of course that - where there actually is an
audible difference - it is caused by *added* artifacts from tube amps.

We are bored ****eless with this mantra; do you think we have not
heard it 1,000 times before?

We won't give up our tubes.

We think your'e wrong.



Eventually, he must tire, since there is almost not a single new thing
coming from his mind,
and we all know he hates tubes, and it leaves him in a stranded position.

The Laws of Physics are unlikely to change in the immediate future,
and what's new about triodes?

Much is discussed at rat about issues other than tubes, such as ESL,
power supplies, and things with common electronic engineering
issues, and if it wasn't for the killer sharks out there the seas at rat
would be clogged with a
schoals of BS artists saying all manner of things that are simply plain
wrong,
and getting away with it.

Exactly! :-)

But you are not exactly qualified to comment on tube craft matters.
You build no tube amps.

Patrick Turner.



--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Patrick Turner wrote:
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:19:56 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:

Pinky loathes tubes, and why he is here is a mystery,

I don't loathe tubes, they're simply an anachronism.

Your statement here explains your attitude.
Most of us here don't think tubes are an anachronism,
and feel such terms to be insulting.

Pinkerton's blind prejudice is even better encapsulated in this
statement:

****
I entered this forum with some
*factual* deconstructions of Jute's worthless assumptions on which he
based the (so far mythical) KISS amplifier.
****


Why I am here is
to correct false assumptions and wild claims. Andre Jute however,
cannot stand criticism, and turned it into an ad hominem flame war.

Holy Moses, did Pinko really say this? Pinkerton called me a
sociopathic/pathologiccal/fillinyourownadjective liar at least 11 times
in less than 4 months.
http://groups.google.ie/groups?q=+li...ing=d&filter=0
If calling someone a sociopath isn't an ad hominem attack, what is?

Back to Patrick's deconstruction of Pinkerton:

Well you are the one to have some of your claims be found to be BS.

You don't build tube amps, you don't want to really be part of the
life of the group.
You don't belong here.

You just float around spotting faults, and to most folks you are as
popular as
a
parking inspector, a tax collector, a moslem in a synagog.
Is there a single thing you can suggest to improve tubecraft,
other than tell us to use transistors?



if it isn't just
be sadistic, like the dudes who turn up at rec.sailing.yachts
and spend all their time telling the locals they should
cut their masts doun, remove lead from keels, and install a
Perkins
Diesel,
or a chevvy V8.

The only *real* speedboat has a pair of Corvette engines.

He should retire gracefully, since he has ZERO idea about tube
craft,
but he's addicted to prod us all, and smote us with fiery
statements of
invective which have not even a candle's power.

Some how he thinks we'll all start building SS amps, even
ones a little bit simple, with the enthusiasm that many did in
1969
when ppl began to dump their worn out tube amps
and get real with the new cool SS rubbish.

Not at all, but I will continue to point out obvious errors - such
as
the suggestion that tubes somehow retain something which is lost by
SS
amps. The *truth* is of course that - where there actually is an
audible difference - it is caused by *added* artifacts from tube
amps.

We are bored ****eless with this mantra; do you think we have not
heard it 1,000 times before?

We won't give up our tubes.

We think your'e wrong.



Eventually, he must tire, since there is almost not a single new
thing
coming from his mind,
and we all know he hates tubes, and it leaves him in a stranded
position.

The Laws of Physics are unlikely to change in the immediate future,
and what's new about triodes?

Much is discussed at rat about issues other than tubes, such as
ESL,
power supplies, and things with common electronic engineering
issues, and if it wasn't for the killer sharks out there the seas
at rat
would be clogged with a
schoals of BS artists saying all manner of things that are simply
plain
wrong,
and getting away with it.

Exactly! :-)

But you are not exactly qualified to comment on tube craft matters.
You build no tube amps.

Patrick Turner.

Well said, Patrick.


--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Andre Jute

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 04:33:28 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:



Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:19:56 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:

Pinky loathes tubes, and why he is here is a mystery,

I don't loathe tubes, they're simply an anachronism.

Your statement here explains your attitude.
Most of us here don't think tubes are an anachronism,
and feel such terms to be insulting.

The truth can indeed be hurtful.

Why I am here is
to correct false assumptions and wild claims. Andre Jute however,
cannot stand criticism, and turned it into an ad hominem flame war.

Well you are the one to have some of your claims be found to be BS.

Not the ones regarding Andre's false assumptions, nor indeed the ones
regarding tubes vs SS.

You don't build tube amps, you don't want to really be part of the
life of the group.
You don't belong here.

I'm only here to provide some amusement - and hopefully to clarify
some misconceptions.

You just float around spotting faults, and to most folks you are as popular as a
parking inspector, a tax collector, a moslem in a synagog.
Is there a single thing you can suggest to improve tubecraft,
other than tell us to use transistors?

'Tubecraft' was done and dusted in the 1940s. Then we invented a
better technology. Live with it.

if it isn't just
be sadistic, like the dudes who turn up at rec.sailing.yachts
and spend all their time telling the locals they should
cut their masts doun, remove lead from keels, and install a Perkins
Diesel,
or a chevvy V8.

The only *real* speedboat has a pair of Corvette engines.

He should retire gracefully, since he has ZERO idea about tube craft,
but he's addicted to prod us all, and smote us with fiery statements of
invective which have not even a candle's power.

Some how he thinks we'll all start building SS amps, even
ones a little bit simple, with the enthusiasm that many did in 1969
when ppl began to dump their worn out tube amps
and get real with the new cool SS rubbish.

Not at all, but I will continue to point out obvious errors - such as
the suggestion that tubes somehow retain something which is lost by SS
amps. The *truth* is of course that - where there actually is an
audible difference - it is caused by *added* artifacts from tube amps.

We are bored ****eless with this mantra; do you think we have not
heard it 1,000 times before?

I'm sure you have. None so deaf as those wo will not hear!

We won't give up our tubes.

No one asked you to give them up.

We think your'e wrong.

But you can't prove it when you don't *know* what's connected.

Eventually, he must tire, since there is almost not a single new thing
coming from his mind,
and we all know he hates tubes, and it leaves him in a stranded position.

The Laws of Physics are unlikely to change in the immediate future,
and what's new about triodes?

Much is discussed at rat about issues other than tubes, such as ESL,
power supplies, and things with common electronic engineering
issues, and if it wasn't for the killer sharks out there the seas at rat
would be clogged with a
schoals of BS artists saying all manner of things that are simply plain
wrong,
and getting away with it.

Exactly! :-)

But you are not exactly qualified to comment on tube craft matters.

Actually, having been educated in the '50s and '60s, I *am* exactly
qualified to comment on tubed amplifiers.

You build no tube amps.

But I have done - then I moved on. I no longer wear cravats, I no
longer drive a buggy.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On 18 Mar 2005 11:11:29 -0800, wrote:

Pinkerton's blind prejudice is even better encapsulated in this
statement:

****
I entered this forum with some
*factual* deconstructions of Jute's worthless assumptions on which he
based the (so far mythical) KISS amplifier.
****

That's not 'blind prejudice', it's a simple statement of the facts of
the matter.

Why I am here is
to correct false assumptions and wild claims. Andre Jute however,
cannot stand criticism, and turned it into an ad hominem flame war.

Holy Moses, did Pinko really say this? Pinkerton called me a
sociopathic/pathologiccal/fillinyourownadjective liar at least 11 times
in less than 4 months.
http://groups.google.ie/groups?q=+li...ing=d&filter=0
If calling someone a sociopath isn't an ad hominem attack, what is?

You started it, but you can't stand the heat. Are you familiar with
the term 'disher'?

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:23:55 +0000, Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

snip

'Tubecraft' was done and dusted in the 1940s. Then we invented a
better technology. Live with it.

snip

Oh Stewart, Stewart! I think the regulars here *know* that their pride and
joy bottled amps can't measure up to mediocre SS amps in the lab! They
already live with it! (I know you like rubbing it in though... ;-) ). They
also prefer to use "Tubecraft" to build their gear. I can't blame 'em;
there isn't much joy to the eye in looking at a row of heatsinks and black
blobs - they are dull, boring, nothing lights up! In that respect they
still have the better technology and, until you get GAs (or something)
output stages flickering away in multicolours then they will always have
it. :-)

--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Web: http://projectedsound.tk

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 04:33:28 +1100, Patrick Turner wrote:

snip

Your statement here explains your attitude.
Most of us here don't think tubes are an anachronism,
and feel such terms to be insulting.

really good stuff snipped

Yowee!!! Go for it Patrick! :-)

--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Web: http://projectedsound.tk

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in
:



The only *real* speedboat has a pair of Corvette engines.



You are funny Stewart! Corvette engines? Bah! That's kid stuff.

Here is a link to a real speed boat.

http://www.gas-turbines.com/squirt_2.htm#videos

Hell, just the sound of that critter is impressive.

r

--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.

Stewart Pinkerton said:

'Tubecraft' was done and dusted in the 1940s. Then we invented a
better technology. Live with it.


Tube craft is our *hobby* , Stewart.
There's no rationalisation needed for practising one's hobby.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:36:35 GMT, R wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in
:

The only *real* speedboat has a pair of Corvette engines.

You are funny Stewart! Corvette engines? Bah! That's kid stuff.

Here is a link to a real speed boat.

http://www.gas-turbines.com/squirt_2.htm#videos

Hell, just the sound of that critter is impressive.

No, it sounds just like a third-hand charter jet on it's way to a
cheap holiday spot. It's a rude, crude, big boy's tin toy. Now, if you
want to see what a *real* speedboat looks like:

http://www.dolvik.com/Bettina/Bettina.htm

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:38:17 +0100, Sander deWaal
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton said:

'Tubecraft' was done and dusted in the 1940s. Then we invented a
better technology. Live with it.

Tube craft is our *hobby* , Stewart.
There's no rationalisation needed for practising one's hobby.

Agreed, so why do you guys keep insisting that SS amps 'lose'
something that tube amps magically retain?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton said:

Tube craft is our *hobby* , Stewart.
There's no rationalisation needed for practising one's hobby.

Agreed, so why do you guys keep insisting that SS amps 'lose'
something that tube amps magically retain?


I can't speak for the other RATs, but I never said such a thing.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

The net allows folks to be utterly obscene, as rude and and arsolic as
humanly possible,
and folks either get used to that noise, kill file the offender, or
ignore them or give them a taste of their own medicine.
Those options are not always possible in the real world, and
there can be blood on the carpet easy.

Good points - I see what you mean - probably very right. Let me add not
being involved and just seeing some of these it's pretty darn right out
of control./

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...

I'm only here to provide some amusement - and hopefully to clarify
some misconceptions.

Have you asked yourself whether or not we want to
be amused by you, or do we have no choice in the matter? :-))

Tubecraft' was done and dusted in the 1940s.

You clearly have not read the books by Tremaine, Rozenblit,
Morgan Jones, Lewis Yorke, etc etc.
As Sander points out, valve/tube audio is a hobby for most of
us. We also happen to prefer the way it sounds. Most people who
listen to valve amps, also build and tinker a little. That's all part of
the fun.

Then we invented a
better technology. Live with it.

Surely you would not deny us freedom of choice?

Iain

There are people here with no interest whatsoever in valve/tube
audio whose sole purpose seems to be to disrupt our group,
ridicule the subject that interests us, and drag the level down
to that of a bar-room brawl. Whether or not we allow this to
happen is totally in our hands.

When you have to deal with people so far up their backsides it would
take a British Expeditionary Force 6 years to drag them out again,
there is only one way of dealing with the situation. Ignore them
completely - and I mean this in the most exact and absolute terms -
don't mention their names, don't partake in any conversations with
them, don't EVER reply to their posts. The only solution is 100% total
and absolute avoidance of anything they write - nothing less. Anyone
who fails to do this only has themselves to blame.

There are people here with no interest whatsoever in valve/tube
audio whose sole purpose seems to be to disrupt our group,
ridicule the subject that interests us, and drag the level down
to that of a bar-room brawl. Whether or not we allow this to
happen is totally in our hands.

When you have to deal with people so far up their backsides it would
take a British Expeditionary Force 6 years to drag them out again,
there is only one way of dealing with the situation. Ignore them
completely - and I mean this in the most exact and absolute terms -
don't mention their names, don't partake in any conversations with
them, don't EVER reply to their posts. The only solution is 100% total
and absolute avoidance of anything they write - nothing less. Anyone
who fails to do this only has themselves to blame.

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:55:21 +0100, Sander deWaal
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton said:

Tube craft is our *hobby* , Stewart.
There's no rationalisation needed for practising one's hobby.

Agreed, so why do you guys keep insisting that SS amps 'lose'
something that tube amps magically retain?

I can't speak for the other RATs, but I never said such a thing.

Good for you!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:21:41 +0200, "Iain M Churches"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .

I'm only here to provide some amusement - and hopefully to clarify
some misconceptions.

Have you asked yourself whether or not we want to
be amused by you, or do we have no choice in the matter? :-))

You certainly have the choice to remain unamused! :-)

Tubecraft' was done and dusted in the 1940s.

You clearly have not read the books by Tremaine, Rozenblit,
Morgan Jones, Lewis Yorke, etc etc.
As Sander points out, valve/tube audio is a hobby for most of
us. We also happen to prefer the way it sounds. Most people who
listen to valve amps, also build and tinker a little. That's all part of
the fun.

Then we invented a
better technology. Live with it.

Surely you would not deny us freedom of choice?

I only deny you the freedom to make wrong-headed statements without
challenge.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Sander deWaal wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton said:

Tube craft is our *hobby* , Stewart.
There's no rationalisation needed for practising one's hobby.

Agreed, so why do you guys keep insisting that SS amps 'lose'
something that tube amps magically retain?

I can't speak for the other RATs, but I never said such a thing.

SS amps walk around like tramps in worn out clothes.
Anythin gets lost if you have large holes in the pockets.

Basis common sense, shish....

Patrick Turner..


--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "