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#41
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
In article m,
David Nebenzahl wrote: On 2/4/2009 9:10 AM Brian Gaff spake thus: The worst I've encountered is the very audible signal from the adjacent turn so to speak. I wonder what your sample had been played on though. What you're describing has nothing to do with vinyl; you're talking about "print-through", which is an artifact of the tape mastering machine feeding the cutter, where you can hear signals from adjacent lengths of tape. Dunno about the record industry but I would edit in leader tape to remove any from the start of a track. -- *A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#42
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message
... Fortunately, long wavelengths and large excursions are mostly in the low frequencies, which tend to have minimal out of phase characteristics (which is why subwoofers are practical). More to the point as far as subwoofers are concerned, the ability of human hearing to determine the direction of a sound source becomes less effective as the wavelength lengthen, becoming pretty well non-existent at frequencies of 50Hz and below. So not only does it not matter if these frequencies are presented in mono, but it doesn't matter much where the subwoofer is in relation to the subs either. David. |
#43
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
"David Looser" wrote in message ... "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message ... Fortunately, long wavelengths and large excursions are mostly in the low frequencies, which tend to have minimal out of phase characteristics (which is why subwoofers are practical). More to the point as far as subwoofers are concerned, the ability of human hearing to determine the direction of a sound source becomes less effective as the wavelength lengthen, becoming pretty well non-existent at frequencies of 50Hz and below. So not only does it not matter if these frequencies are presented in mono, but it doesn't matter much where the subwoofer is in relation to the subs either. David. That has not been my experience. I ended up with two subs, each sitting alongside each main, as I couldn't get on with one only. If the sub was centred between the two loudspeakers, that wasn't too bad, as at least the extreme bass was mono, but when the sub was to one side, it was most peculiar. I find there is stereo in the extreme bass, especially in Jazz, and classical music, although not a lot in rock, and very little on vinyl, which tends to mono the extreme bass anyway. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
#44
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
On Feb 5, 11:23*pm, "Karl Uppiano" wrote:
Fortunately, long wavelengths and large excursions are mostly in the low frequencies, Uh, I would hope long wavelengths are mostly at low frequencies. :-) which tend to have minimal out of phase characteristics (which is why subwoofers are practical). I assume you mean "single" or "mono" subwoofers here. I have seen grooves intersect on records that I own, but the stylus rides a long ways below the surface, so it is really only a problem if the *bottoms* of the grooves overlap. Then the stylus would have a "choice" wouldn't it? That would be bad... I have such a record in my collection. It's an old RCA release of (I believe) Toscanini conducting Dukas' Sorcerer's Apprentice. At the final orchestral crash before the concluding section, on playing you hear the final bars before that note leading up to it and then, ... nothing but reverb tail. By adjusting the anti-skating a little on the high side, it would play just fine. I looked at it with a microscope once and, indeed, there was a lot of confused grooves for about 2 revolutions. |
#45
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
On Feb 6, 9:36*am, "Serge Auckland"
wrote: "David Looser" wrote in message ... "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message ... Fortunately, long wavelengths and large excursions are mostly in the low frequencies, which tend to have minimal out of phase characteristics (which is why subwoofers are practical). More to the point as far as subwoofers are concerned, the ability of human hearing to determine the direction of a sound source becomes less effective as the wavelength lengthen, becoming pretty well non-existent at frequencies of 50Hz and below. So not only does it not matter if these frequencies are presented in mono, but it doesn't matter much where the subwoofer is in relation to the subs either. David. That has not been my experience. I ended up with two subs, each sitting alongside each main, as I couldn't get on with one only. If the sub was centred between the two loudspeakers, that wasn't too bad, as at least the extreme bass was mono, but when the sub was to one side, it was most peculiar. That's primarily because most subwoofers aren't: they tend to have substantial output at higher frequencies anyway. The very low frequency material could well be in mono, but stuff an octave or two higher could have substantial difference information, and that can easily find its way through many subwoofers. |
#47
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:30:41 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Feb 6, 9:36 am, "Serge Auckland" wrote: "David Looser" wrote in message ... "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message ... Fortunately, long wavelengths and large excursions are mostly in the low frequencies, which tend to have minimal out of phase characteristics (which is why subwoofers are practical). More to the point as far as subwoofers are concerned, the ability of human hearing to determine the direction of a sound source becomes less effective as the wavelength lengthen, becoming pretty well non-existent at frequencies of 50Hz and below. So not only does it not matter if these frequencies are presented in mono, but it doesn't matter much where the subwoofer is in relation to the subs either. David. That has not been my experience. I ended up with two subs, each sitting alongside each main, as I couldn't get on with one only. If the sub was centred between the two loudspeakers, that wasn't too bad, as at least the extreme bass was mono, but when the sub was to one side, it was most peculiar. That's primarily because most subwoofers aren't: they tend to have substantial output at higher frequencies anyway. The very low frequency material could well be in mono, but stuff an octave or two higher could have substantial difference information, and that can easily find its way through many subwoofers. That was indeed my own experience until I built my own subwoofer. It turns over at about 50Hz, and is impossible to localize in the room by sound. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com My subs (Meridian D1500) are designed to work with the D5000 mains, and have a 2nd order Butterworth response at 36 Hz. And yet, having one to the side, it's very obvious where the bass is coming from. I built a single sub for my son some years ago, and it had to integrate with a pair of small Missions, which meant a rollover around 70Hz, 2nd order. That was very noticeable, and disturbing when not between the main 'speakers. Either my room acoustics are peculiar, or I'm particularly sensitive to bass positioning. Perhaps to make up for my complete insensitivity to cables, CD players, amplifiers, spikes, cable lifters etc etc. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
#48
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
In article , "Serge Auckland" wrote:
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:30:41 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Feb 6, 9:36 am, "Serge Auckland" wrote: "David Looser" wrote in message ... "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message ... Fortunately, long wavelengths and large excursions are mostly in the low frequencies, which tend to have minimal out of phase characteristics (which is why subwoofers are practical). More to the point as far as subwoofers are concerned, the ability of human hearing to determine the direction of a sound source becomes less effective as the wavelength lengthen, becoming pretty well non-existent at frequencies of 50Hz and below. So not only does it not matter if these frequencies are presented in mono, but it doesn't matter much where the subwoofer is in relation to the subs either. David. That has not been my experience. I ended up with two subs, each sitting alongside each main, as I couldn't get on with one only. If the sub was centred between the two loudspeakers, that wasn't too bad, as at least the extreme bass was mono, but when the sub was to one side, it was most peculiar. That's primarily because most subwoofers aren't: they tend to have substantial output at higher frequencies anyway. The very low frequency material could well be in mono, but stuff an octave or two higher could have substantial difference information, and that can easily find its way through many subwoofers. That was indeed my own experience until I built my own subwoofer. It turns over at about 50Hz, and is impossible to localize in the room by sound. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com My subs (Meridian D1500) are designed to work with the D5000 mains, and have a 2nd order Butterworth response at 36 Hz. And yet, having one to the side, it's very obvious where the bass is coming from. I built a single sub for my son some years ago, and it had to integrate with a pair of small Missions, which meant a rollover around 70Hz, 2nd order. That was very noticeable, and disturbing when not between the main 'speakers. Either my room acoustics are peculiar, or I'm particularly sensitive to bass positioning. Perhaps to make up for my complete insensitivity to cables, CD players, amplifiers, spikes, cable lifters etc etc. I suspect some crossovers having cutoff at some point, but may not be true at the second and third harmonic, depending how good the design is. Easy on active crossovers but requiring Zoebles otherwise. I can sometimes hear spyder noise and of course wind noise. In general I would prefer using a bandpass box, but you still have to watch wind noise. greg |
#49
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 18:53:10 GMT, (GregS)
wrote: In article , "Serge Auckland" wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:30:41 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Feb 6, 9:36 am, "Serge Auckland" wrote: "David Looser" wrote in message ... "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message ... Fortunately, long wavelengths and large excursions are mostly in the low frequencies, which tend to have minimal out of phase characteristics (which is why subwoofers are practical). More to the point as far as subwoofers are concerned, the ability of human hearing to determine the direction of a sound source becomes less effective as the wavelength lengthen, becoming pretty well non-existent at frequencies of 50Hz and below. So not only does it not matter if these frequencies are presented in mono, but it doesn't matter much where the subwoofer is in relation to the subs either. David. That has not been my experience. I ended up with two subs, each sitting alongside each main, as I couldn't get on with one only. If the sub was centred between the two loudspeakers, that wasn't too bad, as at least the extreme bass was mono, but when the sub was to one side, it was most peculiar. That's primarily because most subwoofers aren't: they tend to have substantial output at higher frequencies anyway. The very low frequency material could well be in mono, but stuff an octave or two higher could have substantial difference information, and that can easily find its way through many subwoofers. That was indeed my own experience until I built my own subwoofer. It turns over at about 50Hz, and is impossible to localize in the room by sound. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com My subs (Meridian D1500) are designed to work with the D5000 mains, and have a 2nd order Butterworth response at 36 Hz. And yet, having one to the side, it's very obvious where the bass is coming from. I built a single sub for my son some years ago, and it had to integrate with a pair of small Missions, which meant a rollover around 70Hz, 2nd order. That was very noticeable, and disturbing when not between the main 'speakers. Either my room acoustics are peculiar, or I'm particularly sensitive to bass positioning. Perhaps to make up for my complete insensitivity to cables, CD players, amplifiers, spikes, cable lifters etc etc. I suspect some crossovers having cutoff at some point, but may not be true at the second and third harmonic, depending how good the design is. Easy on active crossovers but requiring Zoebles otherwise. I can sometimes hear spyder noise and of course wind noise. In general I would prefer using a bandpass box, but you still have to watch wind noise. greg My sub is IB and over 50 cu. ft., so no wind noise. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
#50
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
wrote in message ... That's primarily because most subwoofers aren't: they tend to have substantial output at higher frequencies anyway. The very low frequency material could well be in mono, but stuff an octave or two higher could have substantial difference information, and that can easily find its way through many subwoofers. So true, I find it annoying that what we once called simply a woofer, is now called a "sub woofer" by many manufacturers. Many don't go anywhere near 20Hz, and may go well over 200Hz by design. And many more go there simply because of inadequate filtering. MrT. |
#51
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
"Serge Auckland" wrote in message ... My subs (Meridian D1500) are designed to work with the D5000 mains, and have a 2nd order Butterworth response at 36 Hz. And yet, having one to the side, it's very obvious where the bass is coming from. I built a single sub for my son some years ago, and it had to integrate with a pair of small Missions, which meant a rollover around 70Hz, 2nd order. That was very noticeable, and disturbing when not between the main 'speakers. Either my room acoustics are peculiar, or I'm particularly sensitive to bass positioning. Nah you really need to use a fourth order network, or greater. Remember you ear is more sensitive at higher bass frequencies than low bass, so a second order network may hardly attenuate the higher bass frequencies much at all, as far as your hearing is concerned anyway. MrT. |
#52
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
"David Looser" wrote in message ... "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message ... Fortunately, long wavelengths and large excursions are mostly in the low frequencies, which tend to have minimal out of phase characteristics (which is why subwoofers are practical). More to the point as far as subwoofers are concerned, the ability of human hearing to determine the direction of a sound source becomes less effective as the wavelength lengthen, becoming pretty well non-existent at frequencies of 50Hz and below. So not only does it not matter if these frequencies are presented in mono, but it doesn't matter much where the subwoofer is in relation to the subs either. But... the physics behind it are related. We don't perceive low frequency directionality because given the spacing between our ears (as opposed to the space between our ears) doesn't allow for much phase difference at low frequencies. Recording setups with widely spaced microphones can produce artificial phasing artifacts, but it isn't what we normally hear. Blending to mono at low frequencies for cutting records or driving subwoofers is relatively benign for all the same reasons. |
#53
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
Karl Uppiano wrote:
We don't perceive low frequency directionality because given the spacing between our ears (as opposed to the space between our ears) doesn't allow for much phase difference at low frequencies. Low frequencies can be well localised in anechoic conditions but not in a normally reverberant room of reasonable size. I have taken part in blind tests that indicated that you could cross over a woofer at 120 Hz without being able to tell where it was, provided it was not very near the listener. In fact you could push it up to 160 Hz although I think that was the limit. The tests were with speech and music, using a normal stereo pair of speakers for the higher frequencies. The test system did have a very steep cut-off filter, but this was over 10 years ago and I have forgotten what the slope was. The effect of distortion in the speaker is also very important (and inevitable) so it is a good idea to have acoustic attenuation of frequencies above the nominal cut-off by pointing the woofer at soft materials. -- Tony W My e-mail address has no hyphen - but please don't use it, reply to the group. |
#54
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
"Tony" wrote in message om... Karl Uppiano wrote: We don't perceive low frequency directionality because given the spacing between our ears (as opposed to the space between our ears) doesn't allow for much phase difference at low frequencies. Low frequencies can be well localised in anechoic conditions but not in a normally reverberant room of reasonable size. I have taken part in blind tests that indicated that you could cross over a woofer at 120 Hz without being able to tell where it was, provided it was not very near the listener. In fact you could push it up to 160 Hz although I think that was the limit. The tests were with speech and music, using a normal stereo pair of speakers for the higher frequencies. The test system did have a very steep cut-off filter, but this was over 10 years ago and I have forgotten what the slope was. The effect of distortion in the speaker is also very important (and inevitable) so it is a good idea to have acoustic attenuation of frequencies above the nominal cut-off by pointing the woofer at soft materials. I did not mean to imply that there were any absolutes in LF localization ability by humans. It seems to drop off gradually, and of course relative phase *and* loudness play a part in what we hear in each ear. Confounding factors, such as harmonics and other noises coming from the LF driver can provide clues as well (perhaps more easily discernable in an anechoic space?). As for whether blending LF to mono for vinyl is audible or not, might have been less important than practical considerations related to making playable records. Digital audio certainly does not have that constraint. I don't know what current practice is for routing LF when mixing for CDs. |
#55
Posted to uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
Karl Uppiano wrote:
As for whether blending LF to mono for vinyl is audible or not, might have been less important than practical considerations related to making playable records. Digital audio certainly does not have that constraint. I don't know what current practice is for routing LF when mixing for CDs. There is a plug-in called mono around, and reducing the channel separation in the low frequency range can be useful with recordings made with some distance between microphones. It will however also change the perspective experience for those that play the recording on full range stereophonic systems. The trick is also quite useful to reduce rumble from records, be it from playback or from the cutting ... it is one of my posted enhancement requests for Audition that the functionality should be integrated and it has so been since way before I heard of the - admittedly useful - third party USD 99 plug in (or stand alone, can't remember), a bit costly compared with the upgrade price for the entire Audition package ... Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#56
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
Don Pearce wrote: I was interested in how heavily modulated vinyl could be, so I popped an old record (Long Hot Summer Night, Jimi Hendrix, Track Records 1968) under the microscope for a look. And what did I find? Two adjacent grooves clearly broken into each other: http://81.174.169.10/odds/grooves.jpg Was this a really common back then, or is this kind of thing a rarity? Hardly surprises me ! It's probably part of that allegedly sought-after 'vinyl sound'. Graham |
#57
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Serious vinyl quality control problem?
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article m, David Nebenzahl wrote: On 2/4/2009 9:10 AM Brian Gaff spake thus: The worst I've encountered is the very audible signal from the adjacent turn so to speak. I wonder what your sample had been played on though. What you're describing has nothing to do with vinyl; you're talking about "print-through", which is an artifact of the tape mastering machine feeding the cutter, where you can hear signals from adjacent lengths of tape. Dunno about the record industry but I would edit in leader tape to remove any from the start of a track. I think that was normal practice everywhere, except for places that used the same tapes over and over again, but their material was unlikely to go for cutting anyway. Iain |
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