[Doc]

I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of their
hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
"this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
don't support it".

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is? Is there
something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to have
the same look as the other versions?

Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions don't
cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including older
versions of things that aren't certified for it such as Soundforge 5
and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

[Shenan Stanley]

Doc wrote:
I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running
under XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any
of their hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
"this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
don't support it".

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is? Is there
something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to
have the same look as the other versions?

Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions
don't cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including
older versions of things that aren't certified for it such as
Soundforge 5 and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

Can you download drivers for Windows XP Professional?

Same thing. Windows XP Media Center is basically Windows XP Professional
with the Media Center components and lacking a couple of domain related
features...

Hardware manufacturers seem to pick and choose like this to save their
support time.

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

[Geoff]

Glennbo wrote:
In

the killer robot Doc grabbed the controls of
the spaceship cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons...

I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of their
hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
"this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
don't support it".

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?

All that means is that they haven't officially tested it with that
OS, so they don't guarantee any specific results if you use that
combination.

Maybe it also means that they know that that OS is such a can of worms
regarding compatibility becasue of it's internal tweaks, that they really
don't want to encourage their customers to use it.

geoff

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:26:26 +1300, "geoff"
wrote:

All that means is that they haven't officially tested it with that
OS, so they don't guarantee any specific results if you use that
combination.

Maybe it also means that they know that that OS is such a can of worms
regarding compatibility becasue of it's internal tweaks, that they really
don't want to encourage their customers to use it.

newsgroups trimmed

For audio recording purposes, a pretty much real-time gig, the
overhead of all of the Media Center rigamarol is self-defeating.

My small experience of Media Center in an unrelated context was
of breathtakingly incompetent design. Maybe it's just me, maybe not.

Thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck

[Patrick Keenan]

"Doc" wrote in message
...
I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of their
hardware with this O/S.

M-Audio isn't alone in this by any means. The list is more than a few
lines.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell.

If that's the case for you, I would suggest that you might safely invest in
lottery tickets.

Many people have *no luck at all* installing m-Audio or DigiDesign hardware
or software, or other audio-recording related devices from other
manufacturers on MCE; or in the case of actually getting it installed, not
having it run reliably or usably.

That unreliability is why the manufacturers do not endorse it or support it.

Their response is
"this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
don't support it".

Yes. They can't tell if it will work or not, and can't fix MCE.

MCE is different enough to require a full test programe.

They may have gotten into a test cycle and realized that some of the
services in MCE prevent the hardware and software from functioning properly,
predictably or reliably.

In this case the only honest thing to do is to say that MCE isn't supported,
rather than telling customers that it will work with your hardware.

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?

They know that often enough it doesn't, and whether it does or not is
beyond their control. It apparently doesn't work to their satisfaction,
and if it doesn't, may not be fixable by any means other than a different
OS.

DigiDesign does the same thing. The mBox and ProTools aren't supported
under MCE either. Same with Presonus.

They know that, for example, the extra services running in MCE get in the
way of recording, and there's no point in wasting time trying to make it
work by trying to cripple the OS.

Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is?

Yes, it's simply stated as this: MCE is unsuitable for this purpose.

Here's the way somebody at Presonus put it:

http://www.presonus.com/forums/archi...php/t-131.html

"Like the article says, Media Center edition is not supported, and we have
certainly encountered users that have irresolvable issues with that OS.
Other users have had good reports, but as far as in-house testing goes, we
cannot verify stable functionality with XP Media Center, and therefore do
not reccommend it."


Is there
something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed

Yes. It's just not suitable for recording digital audio in a multi-track
context, which is what the m-Audio and DigiDesign and Presonus etc, hardware
and sofware is for.

that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP

It's not *wholly* unlike them, but it's different enough to render it
unsuitable for use with those kinds of hardware and software.

and just happens to have
the same look as the other versions?

Pretty much.

Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions don't
cause?

You bet. That's why these manufacturers don't support it.

Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including older
versions of things that aren't certified for it such as Soundforge 5
and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

I've seen a number of posts in other groups from people who can NOT get
either m-Audio or Digidesign hardware or software to work properly in MCE,
even if they managed to get it installed. They would up replacing both
the audio hardware AND the PC.

And, for example,

http://www.swee****er.com/sweetcare/...&keyword=30163
=======
"Article # 30163Date: 2006-01-05
Problem:
Windows XP Media Center compatiblity alert (updated 2/12/2007).

Solution:
Windows XP Media Center is a version of Windows specifically designed for
integration of TV and radio features into the operating system. Microsoft
gives the following information:


Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005, available preinstalled on Media Center
PCs, allows you to pause and rewind live TV or radio, digitally record an
entire TV series or program category, watch DVDs and videos, organize and
play your music collection, and showcase digital photos.
Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 makes it easier to access digital
entertainment wherever you are. Here are some of the top features:

* Multi-tuner support (record two shows at the same time and watch another
previously recorded show)
* Support for digital and high-definition local TV
* Built-in CD and DVD burning
* Windows Movie Maker 2.1 with DVD burning
* Internet radio
* Enhanced setup wizard for easier installation

(from: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/m...ation/faq.mspx )

You can also read more about it he
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_xp_media_center


Needless to say, these features, while useful for live media purposes, tend
to significantly interfere with the vast majority of audio applications.
Here is an (unofficial) list of software and hardware we have found to be
unsupported in XP Media Center:

.. Digidesign Pro Tools (all versions).
.. All M-Audio software and hardware.
.. All Steinberg software.
.. Cakewalk SONAR (all versions).
.. The iLok.
.. Syncrosoft USB dongles.
.. Focusrite interfaces.
.. Lexicon Omega/Alpha/Lambda.
.. Edirol interfaces.
.. Alesis USB and Firewire mixers.
.. All MOTU hardware and software.
.. All E-MU hardware and software.
.. Native Instruments software.
.. Waves software.
.. Mackie Spike. Tracktion has been known to work, but is not guaranteed.
.. Novation X-Station series.
.. TC Eletric PowerCore series.
.. Universal Audio UAD-1 cards.
.. All RME hardware.
.. All PreSonus hardware.
.. All TASCAM software and hardware.
.. Blue Snowball and Samson C01 USB Microphones.
.. Line 6 USB hardware and drivers


Keep in mind that this is an unofficial list. These are simply products that
we have found, through our experience and through manufacturer requirements,
to not function properly in XP Media Center. However, you may experience
full functionality with any of the aforementioned products. Swee****er can
only provide support for either XP Home or XP Professional. These are the
versions that we at Swee****er install on our Creation Station series, and
the only versions we have found to be fully compatible with everything we
sell."

http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?...0&itemid=22905

"Not Supported with any version of Pro Tools:

Windows XP Professional x64 Edition

Windows XP Media Center Edition"

http://www.recordingwebsite.com/foru...ic=1995.0;wap2

"Anyone Know A Midi Controller that works with windows xp media center
edition? There are practically NO midis i can find to be compatable. I
wouldnt have bought this stupid laptop if I would have known, because the
whole point in buying this laptop was for using midi live!! Has anyone
successfully used this OS with a midi? If so WHICH , because I will buy
whatever works"
=======

HTH
-pk

[Richard Crowley]

"geoff" wrote ...
Glennbo wrote:
Doc wrote...
I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running
under
XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of
their
hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
"this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
don't support it".

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?

All that means is that they haven't officially tested it with that
OS, so they don't guarantee any specific results if you use that
combination.

Maybe it also means that they know that that OS is such a can of worms
regarding compatibility becasue of it's internal tweaks, that they
really don't want to encourage their customers to use it.

It does seem to be frought with these kinds of official (or unofficial)
incompatibilities. The Media Center Edition is sufficiently wierd
that I can't think of any reason to subject myself to such voluntary
annoyance.

Note that one difference with MCE (and Vista, et.al.) may also be
more restrictive (and/or expensive) "compatibility certification" from
Microsoft. The MCE is wierd enough, and has a small enough market
share (and likely more hassle from Microsoft) that it sounds like M-
Audio is practicing good business sense and I rather respect them for
that.

[Patrick Keenan]

"Shenan Stanley" wrote in message
...
Doc wrote:
I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running
under XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any
of their hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
"this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
don't support it".

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is? Is there
something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to
have the same look as the other versions?

Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions
don't cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including
older versions of things that aren't certified for it such as
Soundforge 5 and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

Can you download drivers for Windows XP Professional?

Unfortunately, XP Pro drivers don't seem to solve the problems between MCE
and audio recording gear, unless they're part of a clean XP Pro install.

Same thing. Windows XP Media Center is basically Windows XP Professional
with the Media Center components

And those components are what cause the problems with recording, and that is
why virtually no audio interface (as opposed to soundcard) manufacturer
supports MCE.

The same kinds of problems exist with tablet editions of Windows XP.

and lacking a couple of domain related features...

Hardware manufacturers seem to pick and choose like this to save their
support time.

I think you'll find that the problems between MCE and audio recording
hardware and software are rather more fundamental than this, and that the
manufacturers are NOT "picking and choosing" in this case "to save their
support time". Instead, they are trying to save their customers from a
bad experience.

These manufacturers, like M-Audio, DigiDesign, Presonus, Line 6, Steinberg,
produce gear primarily intended for multitrack audio recording and
production.

They're faced with an OS that has a variety of services that in-house
testing and customer experience has shown to prevent audio recording
hardware from functioning properly. Their gear just does not work
reliably under MCE.

Virtually *none* of the manufacturers of real audio interfaces or audio
recording software support MCE. They can't fix it.

If you've just spent hours recording a performance, only to find it ruined
and rendered worthless by clicks and pops and dropouts you eventually find
were actually introduced by OS services, this is far beyond a matter of
saving support time.

It's a matter of ensuring reliable, predictable operation, and that has been
demonstrated as being too often unavailable with MCE.

HTH
-pk



--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

Apparently there are at least enough problems that they have chosen
not to support that configuration.
Non support does not mean it will not work.
In fact many users successfully use various products in nonsupported
configurations.

The bottom line is if you have problems and you are in a non supported
path, they can quickly refuse you support so their resources can be
directed to those with supported configurations.
Non supported is not the same as will not work properly.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar



"Doc" wrote in message
...
I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of
their
hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
"this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
don't support it".

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is? Is there
something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to
have
the same look as the other versions?

Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions
don't
cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including older
versions of things that aren't certified for it such as Soundforge 5
and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

[Shenan Stanley]

Doc wrote:
I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running
under XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any
of their hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response
is "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but
we don't support it".

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is? Is there
something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to
have the same look as the other versions?

Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions
don't cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including
older versions of things that aren't certified for it such as
Soundforge 5 and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

Shenan Stanley wrote:
Can you download drivers for Windows XP Professional?
Same thing. Windows XP Media Center is basically Windows XP
Professional with the Media Center components
and lacking a couple of domain related features...

Hardware manufacturers seem to pick and choose like this to save
their support time.

Patrick Keenan wrote:
Unfortunately, XP Pro drivers don't seem to solve the problems
between MCE and audio recording gear, unless they're part of a
clean XP Pro install. And those components are what cause the problems
with recording,
[Windows Media Center Components]
and that is why virtually no audio interface (as opposed to
soundcard) manufacturer supports MCE.

The same kinds of problems exist with tablet editions of Windows XP.
I think you'll find that the problems between MCE and audio
recording hardware and software are rather more fundamental than
this, and that the manufacturers are NOT "picking and choosing" in
this case "to save their support time". Instead, they are trying
to save their customers from a bad experience.

These manufacturers, like M-Audio, DigiDesign, Presonus, Line 6,
Steinberg, produce gear primarily intended for multitrack audio
recording and production.

They're faced with an OS that has a variety of services that
in-house testing and customer experience has shown to prevent
audio recording hardware from functioning properly. Their gear
just does not work reliably under MCE.

Virtually *none* of the manufacturers of real audio interfaces or
audio recording software support MCE. They can't fix it.

If you've just spent hours recording a performance, only to find it
ruined and rendered worthless by clicks and pops and dropouts you
eventually find were actually introduced by OS services, this is
far beyond a matter of saving support time.

It's a matter of ensuring reliable, predictable operation, and that
has been demonstrated as being too often unavailable with MCE.


Interesting and informational response, Patrick. I appreciate it!

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 9, 9:04 pm, Doc wrote:
I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of their
hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
"this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
don't support it".

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is?

XP Media Center was a very short-lived version and M-Audio is a
relatively small company. Most of their customers for products like
yours are at least semi-professionals who wouldn't be caught dead
using a computer running Media Center. While they may have tested the
card with MC when that version of Windows was first released, they
don't keep up with updates and don't now or care if Microsoft makes
changes to the OS that might make the M-Audio driver incompatible.

As long as you don't make any changes to your computer, your setup
will continue to work as well as it does now. But if Microsoft makes
an update that breaks your setup, don't expect a revised version of
the M-Audio driver that accommodates that change.

That's what "we don't support it" means.

[Doc]

On Dec 10, 7:23 am, Mike Rivers wrote:

As long as you don't make any changes to your computer, your setup
will continue to work as well as it does now. But if Microsoft makes
an update that breaks your setup, don't expect a revised version of
the M-Audio driver that accommodates that change.

That's what "we don't support it" means.


Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
computer. I tried the media center remote once when I first got it to
verify it worked and haven't even looked at it since. Apparently its
big feature is it lets you use your computer sort of like Tivo.

If it ever gives me problems, I'll try the disable procedure but since
it ain't broke now, etc.

[Arny Krueger]

"Shenan Stanley" wrote in message

Doc wrote:
I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's
running under XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't
support any of their hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their
response is "this doesn't mean you won't experience full
functionality but we don't support it".

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or
don't they? Can someone clarify what the rationale
behind this is? Is there something fundamentally
different about the way XP MCE is designed that it's
wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to have the same look
as the other versions?

Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other
versions don't cause? Everything I've ever run on it
runs fine, including older versions of things that
aren't certified for it such as Soundforge 5 and
Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

They run fine superficially, and will run fine for some people who are
lucky.

Shenan Stanley wrote:

Can you download drivers for Windows XP Professional?
Same thing. Windows XP Media Center is basically
Windows XP Professional with the Media Center components
and lacking a couple of domain related features...

It's the media center components that are the rub.

Hardware manufacturers seem to pick and choose like this
to save their support time.

No, they sometimes just have to face up to some of the nastier aspects of
reality, and Windows MCE is IME such a thing.

Patrick Keenan wrote:

Unfortunately, XP Pro drivers don't seem to solve the
problems between MCE and audio recording gear, unless
they're part of a clean XP Pro install. And those components are what
cause the problems with recording,
[Windows Media Center Components]
and that is why virtually no audio interface (as opposed
to soundcard) manufacturer supports MCE.

The same kinds of problems exist with tablet editions of
Windows XP. I think you'll find that the problems
between MCE and audio recording hardware and software are rather more
fundamental than this, and that the manufacturers are
NOT "picking and choosing" in this case "to save their
support time". Instead, they are trying to save their
customers from a bad experience.

Agreed.

These manufacturers, like M-Audio, DigiDesign, Presonus,
Line 6, Steinberg, produce gear primarily intended for
multitrack audio recording and production.

They're faced with an OS that has a variety of services
that in-house testing and customer experience has shown to
prevent audio recording hardware from functioning properly.

Agreed. MCE was not a bad idea, but the execution is something else.

The problem with MCE is not what in it necessarily does, but what it can do
under some circumstances.

Their gear just does not work reliably under MCE.

Oh, I suspect it can work well, but with MCE it is easy to set the stage for
disaster.

Virtually *none* of the manufacturers of real audio
interfaces or audio recording software support MCE. They can't fix it.

If you understand the potential of MCE, you understand the potential for
disaster. In MCE it is very easy to set up a timer-driven event that fires
up the TV capture card in the backghround and writes a monster video file to
the hard drive. The TV capture card includes a MPEG encoder that may be
hardware or may be software. If its software, it can take up most of the
CPU. If you're capturing a really nice-looking HDTV program you are
basically writing maybe 5 meg/sec to the hard drive.

What happens if you are trying to record some audio at the same time?

If you've just spent hours recording a performance, only
to find it ruined and rendered worthless by clicks and
pops and dropouts you eventually find were actually
introduced by OS services, this is far beyond a matter of saving support
time.

It's a matter of ensuring reliable, predictable
operation, and that has been demonstrated as being too
often unavailable with MCE.

Interesting and informational response, Patrick. I
appreciate it!

IME he's speaking the truth.

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 10, 7:40 am, Doc wrote:

Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
computer.

I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
wasn't a very popular idea.

[Laurence Payne]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 04:40:49 -0800 (PST), Doc
wrote:

Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
into XP Pro.

This keeps being mentioned, but no-one can ever quote just WHAT needs
doing :-) If there's a set of changes to make, would someone please
post it?

[Laurence Payne]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 06:07:38 -0800 (PST), Mike Rivers
wrote:

Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
computer.

I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
wasn't a very popular idea.

A lot of computers pre-loaded with MCE were recently on the market
here in the UK at attractive prices. I know more than one user who
bought one thinking "Media Centre - thet's bound to solve all my
problems working with sound and video!".

[Jaime]

Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was hardly a "short lived" or
unpopular idea.

The XP version of Media Center has been sold since 2002. MS has sold
millions of copies (and continues to be sell this version) . The Media
Center features are now a part of Vista Home Premium and Ultimate.

There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just uninstall
the Media Center bits. You can purposely mess up the install to end up with
just the XP Pro part, but I'm not sure if other apps might still see it at
Media Center anyway.
--
James
Orlando (Goofy says "Hey"), Florida


"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
On Dec 10, 7:40 am, Doc wrote:

Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
computer.

I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
wasn't a very popular idea.

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 10, 12:01 pm, "Jaime" wrote:

Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was hardly a "short lived" or
unpopular idea.

We live on the planet rec.audio.pro where most knowledgeable people
know to avoid things that make their computer more compatible with
games and multimedia entertainment. This tends to 'take over' more
serious audio applications (like Cakewalk, for the people living on
Planet Cakewalk).

I can see it being popular with people who use the "popular"
applications but that's not us.

The XP version of Media Center has been sold since 2002. MS has sold
millions of copies (and continues to be sell this version) . The Media
Center features are now a part of Vista Home Premium and Ultimate.

That's another OS that smart audio people avoid, or at least use with
caution since many of the programs and drivers they use are not yet
supported or solidly debugged for Vista.

[David B.[_2_]]

Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people as a PVR/cable box
replacement, does a great job, it's also available in Vista.

--

----
Crosspost, do not multipost http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/mul_crss.htm
How to ask a question http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
__________________________________________________ _______________________________


"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...

I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
wasn't a very popular idea.

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 10, 3:46 pm, "David B." wrote:
Do you even know what Media Center is/does?

Other than being an operating system with a remote control, no.

It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people as a PVR/cable box
replacement, does a great job, it's also available in Vista.

Oh. Well, how many people can run Cakewalk on their cable box? Around
here we often as not sing the praises of Windows 98 in instances where
you don't need something newer to run software that you need to run.

Is there ANY advantage to running an audio production program under
Media Center? If so, speak up. If it's only better for replacing a
cable TV component, well, that's something to discuss elsewhere. (or
maybe you ARE elsewhere - I'm in rec.audio.pro)

[Arny Krueger]

"David B." wrote in message

Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
also available in Vista.

Compared to running any of the PVR software packages that are sold with
video tuner and capture cards, it really doesn't seem to do anything that is
terribly unique.

[Doc]

On Dec 10, 12:01 pm, "Jaime" wrote:

There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just uninstall
the Media Center bits.


Dunno, that's what I was told the procedure at this link does. I don't
vouch for the veracity of any of it having not tried it.


http://www.swee****er.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12352

[Doc]

On Dec 10, 1:15 pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Dec 10, 12:01 pm, "Jaime" wrote:

Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was hardly a "short lived" or
unpopular idea.

We live on the planet rec.audio.pro where most knowledgeable people
know to avoid things that make their computer more compatible with
games and multimedia entertainment. This tends to 'take over' more
serious audio applications (like Cakewalk, for the people living on
Planet Cakewalk).


You have impuned his O/S. He WILL have satisfaction my good man.
Pistols at dawn!

[Jaime[_2_]]

All that procedure does is disable the MCE specific sevices, you are just
essentially not starting the MC interface. It doesn't really make it XP Pro,
you would still have the same issue with Domain Login and cached credentials
as you would with the sevice running.

Of course, this would only further prove the point that these various media
manufactures are just too lazy to test and certify their product on MCE.

At the minimum, they could simple write their install script to warn you and
disable disable these features. Or they could be real programmers and write
the code to make their products work correctly instead of taking the lazy
way out and simply saying it does work.
--
James
Orlando (Goofy says "Hey!"), FL



"Doc" wrote in message
...
On Dec 10, 12:01 pm, "Jaime" wrote:

There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just
uninstall
the Media Center bits.


Dunno, that's what I was told the procedure at this link does. I don't
vouch for the veracity of any of it having not tried it.


http://www.swee****er.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12352

[Romeo Rondeau[_4_]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"David B." wrote in message

Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
also available in Vista.

Compared to running any of the PVR software packages that are sold with
video tuner and capture cards, it really doesn't seem to do anything that is
terribly unique.



It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was designed to do :-)

[Richard Crowley]

"Jaime" wrote ...
Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was hardly a "short lived"
or unpopular idea.

The XP version of Media Center has been sold since 2002. MS has sold
millions of copies (and continues to be sell this version) . The Media
Center features are now a part of Vista Home Premium and Ultimate.

There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just uninstall
the Media Center bits. You can purposely mess up the install to end up
with just the XP Pro part, but I'm not sure if other apps might still see
it at Media Center anyway.

Wherever you are posting from, you will need to go over to
the planet "rec.audio.pro" to read the r.a.p response.
Suffice it to say that none of your arguments hold much
water in r.a.p-land.

"Short-lived and unpopular" means that people who do serious
audio tried MCE and were sufficiently burned that it now suffers
a horrible reputation as something to be avoided at almost any cost.
The vendors of our favorite hardware share our abhorrence which
only reinforces the revulsion.

MCE was clearly NOT designed for people doing serious audio
and video production. Dunno why MCE fanbois should find this
so remarkable? OTOH, if we ever feel the need to build a PVR
or something, we'll look you up.

[Richard Crowley]

"Jaime" wrote ...
All that procedure does is disable the MCE specific sevices, you are just
essentially not starting the MC interface. It doesn't really make it XP
Pro, you would still have the same issue with Domain Login and cached
credentials as you would with the sevice running.

Of course, this would only further prove the point that these various
media manufactures are just too lazy to test and certify their product on
MCE.

At the minimum, they could simple write their install script to warn you
and disable disable these features. Or they could be real programmers and
write the code to make their products work correctly instead of taking the
lazy way out and simply saying it does work.

It would appear that it is you who took the lazy way out with a
blanket condemnation of some very competent vendors who
just gave up trying to work in such a hostile environment that
was never designed for serious production use. Hardware
vendors and application developers can only do what the OS
lets them do. After that you can only reject the OS as unsuitable.

[Arny Krueger]

"Romeo Rondeau" wrote in message
et
Arny Krueger wrote:
"David B." wrote in message

Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
also available in Vista.

Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
unique.

It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
designed to do :-)

Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff. If you're in the
market, ADS cards come with what seems to be the best software. I picked up
a pretty functional HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for about $60.

If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to your system from your
system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't found that it creates any
big black holes while installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when you
are recording or playing video, or when you are time-shifting.

One other thing is that the third party software that comes with the TV
tuner and video capture cards seems to have a fair amount of cross-vendor
compatibility. For example, I've inter-operated PVR software and cards from
ADS and ATI.

If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to provide special
software for running with Windows MCE. I've run cards that came with MCE
drivers with other vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.

[Jaime]

You are right, it wasn't designed for professional audio types, it was
designed to be a home entertainment system center. Just because, it is not
being used in one niche market hardly makes it "Short-lived and unpopular" -
again millions of copies sold over the last five years.
--
James
Orlando (Goofy says "Hey"), Florida

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Jaime" wrote ...
Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was hardly a "short lived"
or unpopular idea.

The XP version of Media Center has been sold since 2002. MS has sold
millions of copies (and continues to be sell this version) . The Media
Center features are now a part of Vista Home Premium and Ultimate.

There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just
uninstall the Media Center bits. You can purposely mess up the install to
end up with just the XP Pro part, but I'm not sure if other apps might
still see it at Media Center anyway.

Wherever you are posting from, you will need to go over to
the planet "rec.audio.pro" to read the r.a.p response.
Suffice it to say that none of your arguments hold much
water in r.a.p-land.

"Short-lived and unpopular" means that people who do serious
audio tried MCE and were sufficiently burned that it now suffers
a horrible reputation as something to be avoided at almost any cost.
The vendors of our favorite hardware share our abhorrence which
only reinforces the revulsion.

MCE was clearly NOT designed for people doing serious audio
and video production. Dunno why MCE fanbois should find this
so remarkable? OTOH, if we ever feel the need to build a PVR
or something, we'll look you up.

[David B.[_2_]]

And those packages do nothing special compared to MCE, it's just another
choice for the consumer.
I never said it was any better than 3rd party apps, I was refuting the post
about it not being popular, it is quite popular, with many websites and
forums dedicated to it.

--

----
Crosspost, do not multipost http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/mul_crss.htm
How to ask a question http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
__________________________________________________ _______________________________


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"David B." wrote in message


Compared to running any of the PVR software packages that are sold with
video tuner and capture cards, it really doesn't seem to do anything that
is terribly unique.

[Romeo Rondeau[_4_]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Romeo Rondeau" wrote in message
et
Arny Krueger wrote:
"David B." wrote in message

Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
also available in Vista.
Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
unique.

It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
designed to do :-)

Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff. If you're in the
market, ADS cards come with what seems to be the best software. I picked up
a pretty functional HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for about $60.

I was talking about the interface.


If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to your system from your
system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't found that it creates any
big black holes while installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when you
are recording or playing video, or when you are time-shifting.

One other thing is that the third party software that comes with the TV
tuner and video capture cards seems to have a fair amount of cross-vendor
compatibility. For example, I've inter-operated PVR software and cards from
ADS and ATI.

Yeah, it worked through WDM! :-)


If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to provide special
software for running with Windows MCE. I've run cards that came with MCE
drivers with other vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.

I hate to break it to you Arny, but all of the video input and output
cards use WDM to communicate and they all do it through the OS. It used
to be proprietary (15 years ago), it's all standard stuff now. Hell, I
once hooked up an old analog video camera and a really old ATI input
card and used it as a webcam in Yahoo IM. I can't conceive of any modern
capture card NOT providing drivers for Windows MCE, as a matter of fact
most of the existing ones will be supported already by the OS, just like
they are right now with plain old vanilla Windows XP. Sure, you'll need
custom MCE drivers for enhanced functionality but the basics are already
supported.

[J. Clarke]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Romeo Rondeau" wrote in message
et
Arny Krueger wrote:
"David B." wrote in message

Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
also available in Vista.

Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
unique.

It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
designed to do :-)

Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff. If you're in
the market, ADS cards come with what seems to be the best software.
I picked up a pretty functional HDTV package for XP by ADS from
Amazon for about $60.

If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to your system
from
your system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't found that it
creates any big black holes while installed, other than creating a
lot of I/O when you are recording or playing video, or when you are
time-shifting.

One other thing is that the third party software that comes with the
TV tuner and video capture cards seems to have a fair amount of
cross-vendor compatibility. For example, I've inter-operated PVR
software and cards from ADS and ATI.

If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to provide
special software for running with Windows MCE. I've run cards that
came with MCE drivers with other vendor's PVR software. So MCE
reduces your options.

However if MCE came bundled with the machine then why pay extra for a
third party package?
MCE was never sold as a consumer product, the only way you could get
it was with a machine or as an OEM System Builder product, so there's
no scenario of going out and buying MCE to get PVR functionality.

And none of those third party packages let you view the secured HD
content on cable--for that Vista is the only game in town.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 11, 9:05 am, "David B." wrote:

I never said it was any better than 3rd party apps, I was refuting the post
about it not being popular, it is quite popular, with many websites and
forums dedicated to it.

Define "quite popular." Is it as popular as XP, or Vista? Is it as
popular as Win98? Maybe it's as popular as Linux. There are many
websites and forums dedicated to that OS, too.

But you won't find many end users using Linux-based computers for
professional audio applications with the exception of those who are
using turnkey systems that run under Linux and where the OS (as well
as the whole system) is maintained by the system integrator/
manufacturer. This is a very different thing that buying an off-the-
shelf general purpose computer and using it for multimedia
applications.

There is, however, a very dedicated community of users who would like
you to think that Linux is the only way to do professional audio. They
drop into rec.audio.pro now and then, make some noise, and then go
away for a while. XP-MCE users can feel free to follow suit.

[Scott Dorsey]

Mike Rivers wrote:
There is, however, a very dedicated community of users who would like
you to think that Linux is the only way to do professional audio. They
drop into rec.audio.pro now and then, make some noise, and then go
away for a while. XP-MCE users can feel free to follow suit.

No, I think that is only one person who is responsible for that. What
you see here in rec.audio.pro is crossposted crap that is all either
from flatfish (under various names) or people responding to him.

Not that I don't think Linux is a great system, mind you.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Nigel Barker]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:15:41 -0800, "Richard Crowley" wrote:

"Jaime" wrote ...
Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was hardly a "short lived"
or unpopular idea.

The XP version of Media Center has been sold since 2002. MS has sold
millions of copies (and continues to be sell this version) . The Media
Center features are now a part of Vista Home Premium and Ultimate.

There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just uninstall
the Media Center bits. You can purposely mess up the install to end up
with just the XP Pro part, but I'm not sure if other apps might still see
it at Media Center anyway.

Wherever you are posting from, you will need to go over to
the planet "rec.audio.pro" to read the r.a.p response.
Suffice it to say that none of your arguments hold much
water in r.a.p-land.

"Short-lived and unpopular" means that people who do serious
audio tried MCE and were sufficiently burned that it now suffers
a horrible reputation as something to be avoided at almost any cost.
The vendors of our favorite hardware share our abhorrence which
only reinforces the revulsion.

MCE was clearly NOT designed for people doing serious audio
and video production. Dunno why MCE fanbois should find this
so remarkable? OTOH, if we ever feel the need to build a PVR
or something, we'll look you up.

It's amazing then that suddenly these same manufacturers that could not support MCE 2005 are able to
support Vista including the Ultimate & Home Premium editions that contain the self same Media Center
code.
--

Cheers

Nigel Barker
Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur
MCE MVP

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 11, 10:41 am, Nigel Barker wrote:

It's amazing then that suddenly these same manufacturers that could not support MCE 2005 are able to
support Vista including the Ultimate & Home Premium editions that contain the self same Media Center
code.

Easy. It's all about testing and demand. They know that MCE2005 isn't
very popular with serious audio users, so there are only a handful of
people who will care about whether their hardware or applications will
work. Yet everyone with XP seems to have already committed to Vista
(probably all of their hardware and software stopped working as soon
as Vista was released g), so that's where the manufacturers put
their limited development and testing resources.

It may be (as M-Audio suggests) that their product will work under
MCE, but they haven't taken the time to test it extensively and see if
they need to fix any problems.

[Richard Crowley]

"Nigel Barker" wrote ...
It's amazing then that suddenly these same manufacturers
that could not support MCE 2005 are able to support Vista
including the Ultimate & Home Premium editions that contain
the self same Media Center code.

Perhaps you haven't noticed that people are lining up to NOT
buy Vista. Delayed driver support is one major reason.

Interesting to see what happens when microsoft newsgroups
are cross posted to the real world.

[Mike Rivers]

On Dec 11, 11:39 am, "Richard Crowley" wrote:

Perhaps you haven't noticed that people are lining up to NOT
buy Vista. Delayed driver support is one major reason.

That's true, but it's also pretty amazing how many people who use
audio applications have upgraded to Vista and are now pounding on the
virtual doors of their equipment and software vendors with cries of
"Vista has been out for months, and development material was released
to vendors long before that. So when will I be able to use my system
again?"

You can't change human nature's nature for wanting the latest. And for
people buying an off-the-shelf machine, the non-Vista choices are
fairly limited. You can order a new computer from Dell with XP loaded,
but you can't walk into Staples and buy one with XP. I seem to recall
that Dell had (or has) some sort of downgrade plan - maybe they'll
mail you an XP CD if you bought a computer with Vista installed, but
then the user is on his own to install and configure it.

My advice is:
*Don't change what isn't broken
*Wait to buy something until you actually need it
*Make sure before you buy it that what you intend to buy won't break
what you already have working.

Doc (remember Doc, the original poster) came here essentially
following that advice - he wanted to know if what he was thinking of
buying would work with Windows Media Center. Given the kind of loose
answer he received from M-Audio (it works but we don't support it),
it's probably worth a try, but he's been warned that it won't last
forever. If it works, I'd make sure to be careful with any upgrades,
to Windows or any other software he's using. Anything could send it
into "non-supported" territory.

[Arny Krueger]

"Nigel Barker" wrote in message

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:15:41 -0800, "Richard Crowley"
wrote:

"Jaime" wrote ...
Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was
hardly a "short lived" or unpopular idea.

The XP version of Media Center has been sold since
2002. MS has sold millions of copies (and continues to
be sell this version) . The Media Center features are
now a part of Vista Home Premium and Ultimate.

There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you
can't just uninstall the Media Center bits. You can
purposely mess up the install to end up with just the
XP Pro part, but I'm not sure if other apps might still
see it at Media Center anyway.

Wherever you are posting from, you will need to go over
to
the planet "rec.audio.pro" to read the r.a.p response.
Suffice it to say that none of your arguments hold much
water in r.a.p-land.

"Short-lived and unpopular" means that people who do
serious
audio tried MCE and were sufficiently burned that it now
suffers
a horrible reputation as something to be avoided at
almost any cost. The vendors of our favorite hardware
share our abhorrence which only reinforces the revulsion.

MCE was clearly NOT designed for people doing serious
audio
and video production. Dunno why MCE fanbois should find
this
so remarkable? OTOH, if we ever feel the need to build
a PVR
or something, we'll look you up.

It's amazing then that suddenly these same manufacturers
that could not support MCE 2005 are able to support Vista
including the Ultimate & Home Premium editions that
contain the self same Media Center code.

Part of the difference is that basic mainstream computer power has increased
in the intervening 2-3 years.

MCE code that would cause a machine with a 2 GHz processor and 512 megs of
RAM running over a 120 GB hard drive hiccough and burp, won't nearly upset
as much a machine with two 4 GHz cores, 4 GB of RAM and a 500 Gb hard drive.

(*note that the so-called 4 GHz cores are actually clocked at as little as
half that - I'm using CPU vendor-speak*)

[Arny Krueger]

"Romeo Rondeau" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Romeo Rondeau" wrote in message
et
Arny Krueger wrote:
"David B." wrote in message

Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
It's been around for 5 years and is used by many
people as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great
job, it's also available in Vista.
Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
unique.

It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
designed to do :-)

Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff.
If you're in the market, ADS cards come with what seems
to be the best software. I picked up a pretty
functional HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for
about $60.

I was talking about the interface.

Then we're talking about the same stuff.

If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to
your system from your system, you just uninstall it. So
far I haven't found that it creates any big black holes
while installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when
you are recording or playing video, or when you are
time-shifting. One other thing is that the third party software that
comes with the TV tuner and video capture cards seems to
have a fair amount of cross-vendor compatibility. For
example, I've inter-operated PVR software and cards from
ADS and ATI.

Yeah, it worked through WDM! :-)

Exactly. And WDM seems to be pretty solid.

If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to
provide special software for running with Windows MCE. I've run cards
that came with MCE drivers with other
vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.

I hate to break it to you Arny, but all of the video
input and output cards use WDM to communicate and they
all do it through the OS.

What a concept! ;-)

It used to be proprietary (15
years ago), it's all standard stuff now.

Exactly. This asks the question - why did MCE require all those other
changes?

Hell, I once
hooked up an old analog video camera and a really old ATI
input card and used it as a webcam in Yahoo IM. I can't
conceive of any modern capture card NOT providing drivers
for Windows MCE, as a matter of fact most of the existing
ones will be supported already by the OS, just like they
are right now with plain old vanilla Windows XP.

Apparently MCE requires more than just WDM drivers, because the packages I
see that work both stand-alone and with MCE have a special setup program and
more code that gets installed for MCE.

Sure, you'll need custom MCE drivers for enhanced functionality

There you go.

but the basics are already supported.

Yes, MCE seems to be based on WDM drivers, but it seems to need more.

[Arny Krueger]

"J. Clarke" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Romeo Rondeau" wrote in message
et
Arny Krueger wrote:
"David B." wrote in message

Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
It's been around for 5 years and is used by many
people as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great
job, it's also available in Vista.

Compared to running any of the PVR software packages
that are sold with video tuner and capture cards, it
really doesn't seem to do anything that is terribly
unique.

It does look cool on an HDTV, and that's what it was
designed to do :-)

Yes, but the PVR software/hardware does the same stuff.
If you're in the market, ADS cards come with what seems
to be the best software. I picked up a pretty functional
HDTV package for XP by ADS from Amazon for about $60.

If you want to expunge what the PVR software does to
your system from
your system, you just uninstall it. So far I haven't
found that it creates any big black holes while
installed, other than creating a lot of I/O when you are
recording or playing video, or when you are
time-shifting.

One other thing is that the third party software that
comes with the TV tuner and video capture cards seems to
have a fair amount of cross-vendor compatibility. For
example, I've inter-operated PVR software and cards from
ADS and ATI.

If you run Windows MCE your tuner/capture card needs to
provide special software for running with Windows MCE.
I've run cards that came with MCE drivers with other
vendor's PVR software. So MCE reduces your options.

However if MCE came bundled with the machine then why pay
extra for a third party package?

The third party package doesn't cost squat. I picked up an ADS HDTV/video
capture card on Amazon for like $60-70. I think it was cheaper than the
cheapest HDTV card that I could find that would work with MCE, and not by
just a little.

MCE was never sold as a consumer product, the only way
you could get it was with a machine or as an OEM System
Builder product, so there's no scenario of going out and
buying MCE to get PVR functionality.

Yes, there's no retail version of Windows MCE. Thus MS forces people to
learn how to spell Torrent if they want to build their own hardware.

And none of those third party packages let you view the
secured HD content on cable--for that Vista is the only
game in town.

On Comcast, AFAIK the only way to watch secured HD content is to have one of
their boxes, or a device that takes one of their cards. I know of no PC
accessories that take a card.

I've heard about secured HD content, but I know of no providers who are
actually delivering it nationwide today.