[ScottReeve]

I've got a 2002 Pathfinder, and when I got it, I had my Denon DCT-970
HU installed.

The DCT-970 had two shortcomings from the start: 1) alternator whine
(noticable at speeds 20MPH or less, faster than that the engine sound
drowned it out) 2) No MP3 support.

Now the main display light no longer works, so I can't see the
station/track etc very easily.

Looks like it's time for a new HU. I've had Alpine before (7817) but
it's hard for me to compare the sound with the Denon because with the
7817, I had it going into an Alpine amp.

It would be nice if the HU had auxiliary inputs, but from the specs
this doesn't seem to have one.
I think I read somewhere that the CD changer connector can be converted
to an auxiliary input.
The device that I want to connect is the XM radio. (I plan on
connecting an IPOD also).

The reviews seem very positive, so I'm willing to have the XM go into
an FM freq. if all else is good.

FWIW, I tried a Pioneer MP4800, (bought it at Circuit City) and like
the Denon better. The Alpine was more analytical, but the Denon much
more musical. Took the Pioneer back.

Any opinions would be welcome.

[smoove]

Yes the 9857 is a great unit, but for what you asking for it to do you can
step down to the 9856. With the versalink adapter you can do RCA in to the
both units. The Ipod connector works great. You can also do XM on the on
both unit's.
9857 http://www.alpine-usa.com/en/product...model=CDA-9857
9857 http://www.alpine-usa.com/en/product...model=CDA-9856
Versalink
http://www.alpine-usa.com/en/product...KCA-121B&tab=D


"ScottReeve" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've got a 2002 Pathfinder, and when I got it, I had my Denon DCT-970
HU installed.

The DCT-970 had two shortcomings from the start: 1) alternator whine
(noticable at speeds 20MPH or less, faster than that the engine sound
drowned it out) 2) No MP3 support.

Now the main display light no longer works, so I can't see the
station/track etc very easily.

Looks like it's time for a new HU. I've had Alpine before (7817) but
it's hard for me to compare the sound with the Denon because with the
7817, I had it going into an Alpine amp.

It would be nice if the HU had auxiliary inputs, but from the specs
this doesn't seem to have one.
I think I read somewhere that the CD changer connector can be converted
to an auxiliary input.
The device that I want to connect is the XM radio. (I plan on
connecting an IPOD also).

The reviews seem very positive, so I'm willing to have the XM go into
an FM freq. if all else is good.

FWIW, I tried a Pioneer MP4800, (bought it at Circuit City) and like
the Denon better. The Alpine was more analytical, but the Denon much
more musical. Took the Pioneer back.

Any opinions would be welcome.

[MOSFET]

I'm sure the 9857 would be a great HU and it WILL accommodate both iPod and
sat radio.

But here goes my standard rant about all the new Alpine units (the regulars
have heard all this before)...

I have owned three Alpines over the last 12 years and think Alpine is GREAT.
My current Alpine is the 9853 and I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT!!! It is everything
I could ever want in a HU. I have NEVER had a problem with any of the three
Alpines I have owned (in fact, the only reason I replaced my last one, the
7863, was so that I had MP3 capability). The one before that (a 7939) was
stolen so I HAD to replace it.

But, IMHO, Alpine has gone and SHOT ITSELF IN THE FOOT with all the current
models.

For some reason, Alpine has decided to do away with Bass Engine Plus and
Bass Engine Pro on ALL their current HU's (even the high-end ones). The
9855 and 9853 (mine) are the LAST models to offer BassEngine Pro. Now they
just offer "Bass Engine" which is nothing more than adjustable bass and
treble frequencies.

BIG MISTAKE!!!!

Bass Engine Pro and Plus had time alignment features that I find
INDISPENSABLE. Time alignment gives you the ability to subtly delay certain
speakers (in milliseconds) so that all the sound hits your ears at the same
time. I LOVE IT. With TA engaged, my center image is ROCK SOLID. My
soundstage is perfectly etched in space before me, and ALL the sound seems
to come from in front of me. With TA not engaged, my soundstage seems
diffused, my center image is all over the place, and the low bass (from my
subs) sound like they are OBVIOUSLY coming from the rear of the car.

Needless to say, I find TA a feature I cannot live without. Bass Engine
Plus/Pro also have incredibly flexible crossover features AND a 5 band
parametric EQ (on Bass Engine Pro, which is what I have) with is a TRUE
parametric EQ with 1/3 octave frequency selection and "Q" function.

Plain old "Bass Engine" has none of this.

Why did Alpine do away with these WONDERFUL features? Beats me. My guess
is that consumer feedback told them it was too confusing to use. True, it
did take extensive reading of the manual to master all the functions, but to
me, it is SO WORTH IT!!! And, like all things, once you become accustomed
to it, it's easy.

For the last 10 years when anyone would ask me "What's the best head unit?",
I would ALWAYS put Alpine at the top of the list. Not anymore. If you are
like me, and like lots of sound shaping features, the new Alpines ARE NOT
FOR YOU.

But if you like your head units simple, then I'm sure you will be pleased
with the new Alpines. I'm sure the quality that Alpine is famous for is
still there.

But the reason I tell you all this is because if I were in the market RIGHT
NOW, Alpine would be off my list.

MOSFET




"ScottReeve" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've got a 2002 Pathfinder, and when I got it, I had my Denon DCT-970
HU installed.

The DCT-970 had two shortcomings from the start: 1) alternator whine
(noticable at speeds 20MPH or less, faster than that the engine sound
drowned it out) 2) No MP3 support.

Now the main display light no longer works, so I can't see the
station/track etc very easily.

Looks like it's time for a new HU. I've had Alpine before (7817) but
it's hard for me to compare the sound with the Denon because with the
7817, I had it going into an Alpine amp.

It would be nice if the HU had auxiliary inputs, but from the specs
this doesn't seem to have one.
I think I read somewhere that the CD changer connector can be converted
to an auxiliary input.
The device that I want to connect is the XM radio. (I plan on
connecting an IPOD also).

The reviews seem very positive, so I'm willing to have the XM go into
an FM freq. if all else is good.

FWIW, I tried a Pioneer MP4800, (bought it at Circuit City) and like
the Denon better. The Alpine was more analytical, but the Denon much
more musical. Took the Pioneer back.

Any opinions would be welcome.

[Captain Howdy]

Alpine dropped that crap because it is not need. Hope this one does not
get stolen or outdated or Mosfet is now going to have to learn how to tune a
system the old school way. Good luck you're gonna need it.



In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
I'm sure the 9857 would be a great HU and it WILL accommodate both iPod and
sat radio.

But here goes my standard rant about all the new Alpine units (the regulars
have heard all this before)...

I have owned three Alpines over the last 12 years and think Alpine is GREAT.
My current Alpine is the 9853 and I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT!!! It is everything
I could ever want in a HU. I have NEVER had a problem with any of the three
Alpines I have owned (in fact, the only reason I replaced my last one, the
7863, was so that I had MP3 capability). The one before that (a 7939) was
stolen so I HAD to replace it.

But, IMHO, Alpine has gone and SHOT ITSELF IN THE FOOT with all the current
models.

For some reason, Alpine has decided to do away with Bass Engine Plus and
Bass Engine Pro on ALL their current HU's (even the high-end ones). The
9855 and 9853 (mine) are the LAST models to offer BassEngine Pro. Now they
just offer "Bass Engine" which is nothing more than adjustable bass and
treble frequencies.

BIG MISTAKE!!!!

Bass Engine Pro and Plus had time alignment features that I find
INDISPENSABLE. Time alignment gives you the ability to subtly delay certain
speakers (in milliseconds) so that all the sound hits your ears at the same
time. I LOVE IT. With TA engaged, my center image is ROCK SOLID. My
soundstage is perfectly etched in space before me, and ALL the sound seems
to come from in front of me. With TA not engaged, my soundstage seems
diffused, my center image is all over the place, and the low bass (from my
subs) sound like they are OBVIOUSLY coming from the rear of the car.

Needless to say, I find TA a feature I cannot live without. Bass Engine
Plus/Pro also have incredibly flexible crossover features AND a 5 band
parametric EQ (on Bass Engine Pro, which is what I have) with is a TRUE
parametric EQ with 1/3 octave frequency selection and "Q" function.

Plain old "Bass Engine" has none of this.

Why did Alpine do away with these WONDERFUL features? Beats me. My guess
is that consumer feedback told them it was too confusing to use. True, it
did take extensive reading of the manual to master all the functions, but to
me, it is SO WORTH IT!!! And, like all things, once you become accustomed
to it, it's easy.

For the last 10 years when anyone would ask me "What's the best head unit?",
I would ALWAYS put Alpine at the top of the list. Not anymore. If you are
like me, and like lots of sound shaping features, the new Alpines ARE NOT
FOR YOU.

But if you like your head units simple, then I'm sure you will be pleased
with the new Alpines. I'm sure the quality that Alpine is famous for is
still there.

But the reason I tell you all this is because if I were in the market RIGHT
NOW, Alpine would be off my list.

MOSFET




"ScottReeve" wrote in message
oups.com...
I've got a 2002 Pathfinder, and when I got it, I had my Denon DCT-970
HU installed.

The DCT-970 had two shortcomings from the start: 1) alternator whine
(noticable at speeds 20MPH or less, faster than that the engine sound
drowned it out) 2) No MP3 support.

Now the main display light no longer works, so I can't see the
station/track etc very easily.

Looks like it's time for a new HU. I've had Alpine before (7817) but
it's hard for me to compare the sound with the Denon because with the
7817, I had it going into an Alpine amp.

It would be nice if the HU had auxiliary inputs, but from the specs
this doesn't seem to have one.
I think I read somewhere that the CD changer connector can be converted
to an auxiliary input.
The device that I want to connect is the XM radio. (I plan on
connecting an IPOD also).

The reviews seem very positive, so I'm willing to have the XM go into
an FM freq. if all else is good.

FWIW, I tried a Pioneer MP4800, (bought it at Circuit City) and like
the Denon better. The Alpine was more analytical, but the Denon much
more musical. Took the Pioneer back.

Any opinions would be welcome.

[MOSFET]

Alpine dropped that crap because it is not need. Hope this one does not
get stolen or outdated or Mosfet is now going to have to learn how to tune
a
system the old school way. Good luck you're gonna need it.


I'm so glad Howdy is part of RAC! His posts are always so bright and
cheerful. He just makes the world a better place!

MOSFET

[Captain Howdy]

I'm so glad Mosfet is part of RAC! His posts are always so full of opinions
and so little fact. He just makes the world a better place!

In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Alpine dropped that crap because it is not need. Hope this one does not
get stolen or outdated or Mosfet is now going to have to learn how to tune
a
system the old school way. Good luck you're gonna need it.


I'm so glad Howdy is part of RAC! His posts are always so bright and
cheerful. He just makes the world a better place!

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

Yah, whatever. Still using duct-tape to fix those POS American cars of
yours?

MOSFET

(this REALLY ****es him off everybody, watch, he'll say something disgusting
about my wife now or try to sell my car again, but I promise you, it will be
REALLY nasty....)

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
I'm so glad Mosfet is part of RAC! His posts are always so full of
opinions
and so little fact. He just makes the world a better place!

In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Alpine dropped that crap because it is not need. Hope this one does not
get stolen or outdated or Mosfet is now going to have to learn how to
tune
a
system the old school way. Good luck you're gonna need it.


I'm so glad Howdy is part of RAC! His posts are always so bright and
cheerful. He just makes the world a better place!

MOSFET

[Captain Howdy]

There is no duct-tape in or on my cars, any of them. POS American cars? What
do you know about cars other then nothing? How many classic Japanese cars have
you seen rolling down the streets near you and what is the ratio to American
cars? Have you read any classic Japanese automotive magazines lately? Did you
know that the Japanese just started putting out cars and trucks with v8
engines? Have you seen the military or police or even taxi companies depend on
Japanese vehicles? For once stop talking **** about things that you know
nothing about. Do you know anything about your car other then what the dealer
charges to repair it? I repair my own, other then automatic transmissions,
they are too far out there for me. But needless to say I've forgotten more
about cars then you'll ever know and I sure don't need you to tell me what's
POS or not.


In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Yah, whatever. Still using duct-tape to fix those POS American cars of
yours?

MOSFET

(this REALLY ****es him off everybody, watch, he'll say something disgusting
about my wife now or try to sell my car again, but I promise you, it will be
REALLY nasty....)

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
. ..
I'm so glad Mosfet is part of RAC! His posts are always so full of
opinions
and so little fact. He just makes the world a better place!

In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Alpine dropped that crap because it is not need. Hope this one does not
get stolen or outdated or Mosfet is now going to have to learn how to
tune
a
system the old school way. Good luck you're gonna need it.


I'm so glad Howdy is part of RAC! His posts are always so bright and
cheerful. He just makes the world a better place!

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

You're right, I don't know **** about cars. But I'm not the one who
duct-taped his rear-view mirror back on (be careful before you deny that, I
MAY have saved a picture).

Anyway, I'm in a goofy mood right now so I'm ****ing with you just to amuse
myself (because frankly you're just TOO easy to annoy), but I know this
little game of mine ****es the others off so I'm going to stop now.

See ya, Howdy

MOSFET

[Captain Howdy]

The pictire that you posted had no duct tape you silly moron.
http://home.cogeco.ca/~mrled/mirror.jpg

Yeah I do have a low tolerance for stupid people, always did.
Did you want me to start annoying you, we all know that you don't like it, you
bully.

In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
You're right, I don't know **** about cars. But I'm not the one who
duct-taped his rear-view mirror back on (be careful before you deny that, I
MAY have saved a picture).

Anyway, I'm in a goofy mood right now so I'm ****ing with you just to amuse
myself (because frankly you're just TOO easy to annoy), but I know this
little game of mine ****es the others off so I'm going to stop now.

See ya, Howdy

MOSFET

[Eric Desrochers]

Hello. About the bass engine on Alpines...

I own a 9815 from 2003 and you could pry it off my cold, hard, dead
hands! Actually, my first unit was destroyed in a car fire and I
repurchased another unit off eBay in 2005 for the new car! I like it
exactly because of the bass engine. Most (all?) amps now have
crossovers built-in but if your gonna use some or all of the HU amp
channels, it won't do you any good.

I have this question : you seem to no longer like the new Alpines HU,
but which other brand/model have functions similar to Bass engine? In
other word, is Alpine the bad guy or they only follow the trend?

--
Eric (Dero) Desrochers
http://homepage.mac.com/dero72

Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95

[Eric Desrochers]

Sorry to step in...

Taxi *needs* to be bulky, which Japaneese car usually are not.

Japaneese car don't use V8 because V8 are not required nor desirable
(for the environment) in any reasonably sized car.

--
Eric (Dero) Desrochers
http://homepage.mac.com/dero72

Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95

[Captain Howdy]

Taxi companies use the newer midsize Chevy impala, just fine, How do you
explain that?

V8's are not required for what? Japan pollutes more then any other country in
the world.



In article ,
(Eric Desrochers) wrote:
Sorry to step in...

Taxi *needs* to be bulky, which Japaneese car usually are not.

Japaneese car don't use V8 because V8 are not required nor desirable
(for the environment) in any reasonably sized car.

[MOSFET]

In
other word, is Alpine the bad guy or they only follow the trend?

--
You raise an interesting point. Yes, virtually every amp these days contain
built in X-overs so I can see that feature not being all that important in a
HU any more. The exception being, of course, if you were only using ONE amp
to drive a sub and wanted the speakers driven by the HU crossed over at a
certain frequency (high-pass), then a built in HU X-over might come in
REALLY handy.

But actually I have found that the other big HU manufactures (Sony, Eclipse,
Kenwood, Pioneer)have been ADDING sound shaping features over the years.
MANY now have some sort of time alignment and sophisticated EQ's.

So no, Alpine APPEARS to be alone in this "dumbing down" approach of the
head unit.

Again, I believe they saw their own units becoming VERY complicated to use
and very frustrating for SOME of their customers. They probably also
noticed that Alpine was not alone in this common consumer complaint. So I
see this as a marketing strategy. They are trying to appeal to the person
who wants compatibility with their iPod, Bluetooth, sat radio, HD radio,
etc., but wants it all to be very simple to operate.

Sort of like "it's so smart, anyone can operate it" kind of approach. And I
can see this strategy working for many consumers, especially those who feel
a bit overwhelmed by all the new technology and choices out there.

BUT I DON'T LIKE IT!!! To me, Bass Engine Pro was ingenious. It was like
someone who REALLY understood IASCA rules and what it takes for a great
sounding system developed it (I always wonder if Steve Brown had a hand in
it's development as he worked very closely with Alpine). It had EVERYTHING
you could want to shape the sound of your music.

Maybe Alpine will bring some of those features back. I hope so. But if
not, I'm afraid my next deck will not be an Alpine.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

Also, you have to wonder if the INCREDIBLE popularity of the MP3 format has
made sound quality no longer a major concern. I am not the only one who has
made this observation. Someone did just recently here but I forgot who it
was.

The rational may be that if people are willing to accept second rate audio
sources (MP3), why bother with high-end sound shaping features? That may
also be part of Alpine's calculation.

But if it is, I disagree as I think the MP3 format sounds GREAT (as long as
the bit-rate is high enough). I guess Alpine's use of BBE again in some of
their models is an attempt to try and compensate for what they perceive as
inadequacies in the MP3 format.

MOSFET


"Eric Desrochers" wrote in message
...
Hello. About the bass engine on Alpines...

I own a 9815 from 2003 and you could pry it off my cold, hard, dead
hands! Actually, my first unit was destroyed in a car fire and I
repurchased another unit off eBay in 2005 for the new car! I like it
exactly because of the bass engine. Most (all?) amps now have
crossovers built-in but if your gonna use some or all of the HU amp
channels, it won't do you any good.

I have this question : you seem to no longer like the new Alpines HU,
but which other brand/model have functions similar to Bass engine? In
other word, is Alpine the bad guy or they only follow the trend?

--
Eric (Dero) Desrochers
http://homepage.mac.com/dero72

Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95

[RG]

My opinion on this differs somewhat. I have had Alpines with time alignment
and other HU's as well. My current HU's have EQ's with one being a
parametric. My personal experience is this:

1/ Time alignment is not for everyone. I never used this feature as in my
experience it actually degraded the sound (in my particular experience).
Alpine's return to including BBE far outweighs the exclusion of time
alignment. In fact, time alignment would be at odds with the operation of
BBE. Time alignment does nothing for inherent phase delays between highs and
lows whereas BBE does. The current BBE feature is much better than time
alignment IMO.

2/ Parametric EQ's, and multi band EQ's are far over rated IMO. They are
overused and in most cases set improperly. And with BBE the need for any EQ
is drastically reduced. My current parametric is only used to bump the base
levels at 80hz by a couple of db and to reduce it by 1db at 4000hz. In other
words, if it were not there I would really be no worse off. If the speakers
are properly selected, matched and installed correctly there really should
be little need for a parametric or multi band EQ. Alpine's current EQ setup
should do just fine to tweak the common problem areas.

3/ As far as crossovers go, most amps have more than adequate xovers built
in. They are really redundant on an HU. If one wants to biamp a set of
components then it is a simple matter to use an external crossover (which
are more flexible and probably better anyway).

In short, Alpine's new offerings offer very high sound quality without
burdening the units with features that are largely unnecessary and redundant
in nature. Unless one just has to have a wide assortment of gizmos and
tweaks to play with you are probably no worse off without them.

- RG

"MOSFET" wrote in message
m...
I'm sure the 9857 would be a great HU and it WILL accommodate both iPod
and
sat radio.

But here goes my standard rant about all the new Alpine units (the
regulars
have heard all this before)...

I have owned three Alpines over the last 12 years and think Alpine is
GREAT.
My current Alpine is the 9853 and I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT!!! It is
everything
I could ever want in a HU. I have NEVER had a problem with any of the
three
Alpines I have owned (in fact, the only reason I replaced my last one, the
7863, was so that I had MP3 capability). The one before that (a 7939) was
stolen so I HAD to replace it.

But, IMHO, Alpine has gone and SHOT ITSELF IN THE FOOT with all the
current
models.

For some reason, Alpine has decided to do away with Bass Engine Plus and
Bass Engine Pro on ALL their current HU's (even the high-end ones). The
9855 and 9853 (mine) are the LAST models to offer BassEngine Pro. Now
they
just offer "Bass Engine" which is nothing more than adjustable bass and
treble frequencies.

BIG MISTAKE!!!!

Bass Engine Pro and Plus had time alignment features that I find
INDISPENSABLE. Time alignment gives you the ability to subtly delay
certain
speakers (in milliseconds) so that all the sound hits your ears at the
same
time. I LOVE IT. With TA engaged, my center image is ROCK SOLID. My
soundstage is perfectly etched in space before me, and ALL the sound seems
to come from in front of me. With TA not engaged, my soundstage seems
diffused, my center image is all over the place, and the low bass (from my
subs) sound like they are OBVIOUSLY coming from the rear of the car.

Needless to say, I find TA a feature I cannot live without. Bass Engine
Plus/Pro also have incredibly flexible crossover features AND a 5 band
parametric EQ (on Bass Engine Pro, which is what I have) with is a TRUE
parametric EQ with 1/3 octave frequency selection and "Q" function.

Plain old "Bass Engine" has none of this.

Why did Alpine do away with these WONDERFUL features? Beats me. My guess
is that consumer feedback told them it was too confusing to use. True, it
did take extensive reading of the manual to master all the functions, but
to
me, it is SO WORTH IT!!! And, like all things, once you become
accustomed
to it, it's easy.

For the last 10 years when anyone would ask me "What's the best head
unit?",
I would ALWAYS put Alpine at the top of the list. Not anymore. If you
are
like me, and like lots of sound shaping features, the new Alpines ARE NOT
FOR YOU.

But if you like your head units simple, then I'm sure you will be pleased
with the new Alpines. I'm sure the quality that Alpine is famous for is
still there.

But the reason I tell you all this is because if I were in the market
RIGHT
NOW, Alpine would be off my list.

MOSFET




"ScottReeve" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've got a 2002 Pathfinder, and when I got it, I had my Denon DCT-970
HU installed.

The DCT-970 had two shortcomings from the start: 1) alternator whine
(noticable at speeds 20MPH or less, faster than that the engine sound
drowned it out) 2) No MP3 support.

Now the main display light no longer works, so I can't see the
station/track etc very easily.

Looks like it's time for a new HU. I've had Alpine before (7817) but
it's hard for me to compare the sound with the Denon because with the
7817, I had it going into an Alpine amp.

It would be nice if the HU had auxiliary inputs, but from the specs
this doesn't seem to have one.
I think I read somewhere that the CD changer connector can be converted
to an auxiliary input.
The device that I want to connect is the XM radio. (I plan on
connecting an IPOD also).

The reviews seem very positive, so I'm willing to have the XM go into
an FM freq. if all else is good.

FWIW, I tried a Pioneer MP4800, (bought it at Circuit City) and like
the Denon better. The Alpine was more analytical, but the Denon much
more musical. Took the Pioneer back.

Any opinions would be welcome.

[RG]

BBE has got nothing to do with compensating for MP3 inadequacies. That is
not why it was developed in the first place or incorporated into some HU's.

My guess is that Alpine's dropping of those tweaking features dear to your
heart is because there is no longer any money in it. These guys are in
business to make money first and foremost. If it made them money or captured
market share they would most certainly retain them. But that is not where
the market is headed. In fact, the writing on the wall says that high end
aftermarket systems will soon go the way of the dodo bird. People just
aren't buying them. New cars have pretty decent systems these days. And more
to the point, it is getting harder to install systems as the factory stuff
is so integrated with other functions and aesthetics of the car.

- RG

"MOSFET" wrote in message
...
Also, you have to wonder if the INCREDIBLE popularity of the MP3 format
has
made sound quality no longer a major concern. I am not the only one who
has
made this observation. Someone did just recently here but I forgot who it
was.

The rational may be that if people are willing to accept second rate audio
sources (MP3), why bother with high-end sound shaping features? That may
also be part of Alpine's calculation.

But if it is, I disagree as I think the MP3 format sounds GREAT (as long
as
the bit-rate is high enough). I guess Alpine's use of BBE again in some
of
their models is an attempt to try and compensate for what they perceive as
inadequacies in the MP3 format.

MOSFET


"Eric Desrochers" wrote in message
...
Hello. About the bass engine on Alpines...

I own a 9815 from 2003 and you could pry it off my cold, hard, dead
hands! Actually, my first unit was destroyed in a car fire and I
repurchased another unit off eBay in 2005 for the new car! I like it
exactly because of the bass engine. Most (all?) amps now have
crossovers built-in but if your gonna use some or all of the HU amp
channels, it won't do you any good.

I have this question : you seem to no longer like the new Alpines HU,
but which other brand/model have functions similar to Bass engine? In
other word, is Alpine the bad guy or they only follow the trend?

--
Eric (Dero) Desrochers
http://homepage.mac.com/dero72

Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95

[RG]

My opinion on this differs somewhat. I have had Alpines with time alignment
and other HU's as well. My current HU's have EQ's with one being a
parametric. My personal experience is this:

1/ Time alignment is not for everyone. I never used this feature as in my
experience it actually degraded the sound (in my particular experience).
Alpine's return to including BBE far outweighs the exclusion of time
alignment. In fact, time alignment would be at odds with the operation of
BBE. Time alignment does nothing for inherent phase delays between highs and
lows whereas BBE does. The current BBE feature is much better than time
alignment IMO.

2/ Parametric EQ's, and multi band EQ's are far over rated IMO. They are
overused and in most cases set improperly. And with BBE the need for any EQ
is drastically reduced. My current parametric is only used to bump the base
levels at 80hz by a couple of db and to reduce it by 1db at 4000hz. In other
words, if it were not there I would really be no worse off. If the speakers
are properly selected, matched and installed correctly there really should
be little need for a parametric or multi band EQ. Alpine's current EQ setup
should do just fine to tweak the common problem areas.

3/ As far as crossovers go, most amps have more than adequate xovers built
in. They are really redundant on an HU. If one wants to biamp a set of
components then it is a simple matter to use an external crossover (which
are more flexible and probably better anyway).

In short, Alpine's new offerings offer very high sound quality without
burdening the units with features that are largely unnecessary and redundant
in nature. Unless one just has to have a wide assortment of gizmos and
tweaks to play with you are probably no worse off without them.

- RG

"MOSFET" wrote in message
m...
Alpine dropped that crap because it is not need. Hope this one does not
get stolen or outdated or Mosfet is now going to have to learn how to
tune
a
system the old school way. Good luck you're gonna need it.


I'm so glad Howdy is part of RAC! His posts are always so bright and
cheerful. He just makes the world a better place!

MOSFET

[GregS]

In article , "RG" wrote:
My opinion on this differs somewhat. I have had Alpines with time alignment
and other HU's as well. My current HU's have EQ's with one being a
parametric. My personal experience is this:

1/ Time alignment is not for everyone. I never used this feature as in my
experience it actually degraded the sound (in my particular experience).
Alpine's return to including BBE far outweighs the exclusion of time
alignment. In fact, time alignment would be at odds with the operation of
BBE. Time alignment does nothing for inherent phase delays between highs and
lows whereas BBE does. The current BBE feature is much better than time
alignment IMO.

BBE is not what its cracked up to be. That demo on their website
is a real winner. SO lame.

What BBE does, is boost the highs dynamically. It has some benefit,
but mostly, you can do that with a treble control. The time alignment crap
was orginally for some arbitrary pa sound system , at some typical selcted
crossover frequency, typically around 1 kHz. This does nothing for the typical
home or car sound system. Most professionals don't like it. It
can help playing bad compact cassettes, but again, so can a treble control.

greg

[Chad Wahls]

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Alpine dropped that crap because it is not need. Hope this one does not
get stolen or outdated or Mosfet is now going to have to learn how to tune
a
system the old school way. Good luck you're gonna need it.




Hey man, just because it's beyond your level of comprehension does not mean
you should diss it.

I use DSP for a living (Live audio reinforcement) I love it in my car! But
i know how to use it.

Chad

[GregS]

In article , (GregS) wrote:
In article , "RG"
wrote:
My opinion on this differs somewhat. I have had Alpines with time alignment
and other HU's as well. My current HU's have EQ's with one being a
parametric. My personal experience is this:

1/ Time alignment is not for everyone. I never used this feature as in my
experience it actually degraded the sound (in my particular experience).
Alpine's return to including BBE far outweighs the exclusion of time
alignment. In fact, time alignment would be at odds with the operation of
BBE. Time alignment does nothing for inherent phase delays between highs and
lows whereas BBE does. The current BBE feature is much better than time
alignment IMO.

BBE is not what its cracked up to be. That demo on their website
is a real winner. SO lame.

What BBE does, is boost the highs dynamically. It has some benefit,
but mostly, you can do that with a treble control. The time alignment crap
was orginally for some arbitrary pa sound system , at some typical selcted
crossover frequency, typically around 1 kHz. This does nothing for the typical
home or car sound system. Most professionals don't like it. It
can help playing bad compact cassettes, but again, so can a treble control.

Reminds me of my Blaupunkt headunit from 1978. It had Dolby FM and Dolby cassette.
When I would press Dolby when listening to the FM the highs would suddenly
insrease. This is contrary to what happens normally on tapes. I don't know if the unit
was bad or misadjusted, but the feature should have only been used listening to Dolby
FM stations, which there were none. Maybe they had something in there that I didn't
know about. Anyway, it sounded just like the BBE effect.

greg

[smoove]

I have a 7878 which does have the Bass engine and TA. with that system I
have I don't use either feature. But the system I have with my 9861 I do
think I could use those features. The best thing about the Alpines is that
have full Ipod support and the fastest MP3 proc. The average person is
person is not going to use the TA. But for people that will they should have
models that still support it. I do agree that its nice having the built in
crossover for basic systems also.

"MOSFET" wrote in message
m...
I'm sure the 9857 would be a great HU and it WILL accommodate both iPod
and
sat radio.

But here goes my standard rant about all the new Alpine units (the
regulars
have heard all this before)...

I have owned three Alpines over the last 12 years and think Alpine is
GREAT.
My current Alpine is the 9853 and I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT!!! It is
everything
I could ever want in a HU. I have NEVER had a problem with any of the
three
Alpines I have owned (in fact, the only reason I replaced my last one, the
7863, was so that I had MP3 capability). The one before that (a 7939) was
stolen so I HAD to replace it.

But, IMHO, Alpine has gone and SHOT ITSELF IN THE FOOT with all the
current
models.

For some reason, Alpine has decided to do away with Bass Engine Plus and
Bass Engine Pro on ALL their current HU's (even the high-end ones). The
9855 and 9853 (mine) are the LAST models to offer BassEngine Pro. Now
they
just offer "Bass Engine" which is nothing more than adjustable bass and
treble frequencies.

BIG MISTAKE!!!!

Bass Engine Pro and Plus had time alignment features that I find
INDISPENSABLE. Time alignment gives you the ability to subtly delay
certain
speakers (in milliseconds) so that all the sound hits your ears at the
same
time. I LOVE IT. With TA engaged, my center image is ROCK SOLID. My
soundstage is perfectly etched in space before me, and ALL the sound seems
to come from in front of me. With TA not engaged, my soundstage seems
diffused, my center image is all over the place, and the low bass (from my
subs) sound like they are OBVIOUSLY coming from the rear of the car.

Needless to say, I find TA a feature I cannot live without. Bass Engine
Plus/Pro also have incredibly flexible crossover features AND a 5 band
parametric EQ (on Bass Engine Pro, which is what I have) with is a TRUE
parametric EQ with 1/3 octave frequency selection and "Q" function.

Plain old "Bass Engine" has none of this.

Why did Alpine do away with these WONDERFUL features? Beats me. My guess
is that consumer feedback told them it was too confusing to use. True, it
did take extensive reading of the manual to master all the functions, but
to
me, it is SO WORTH IT!!! And, like all things, once you become
accustomed
to it, it's easy.

For the last 10 years when anyone would ask me "What's the best head
unit?",
I would ALWAYS put Alpine at the top of the list. Not anymore. If you
are
like me, and like lots of sound shaping features, the new Alpines ARE NOT
FOR YOU.

But if you like your head units simple, then I'm sure you will be pleased
with the new Alpines. I'm sure the quality that Alpine is famous for is
still there.

But the reason I tell you all this is because if I were in the market
RIGHT
NOW, Alpine would be off my list.

MOSFET




"ScottReeve" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've got a 2002 Pathfinder, and when I got it, I had my Denon DCT-970
HU installed.

The DCT-970 had two shortcomings from the start: 1) alternator whine
(noticable at speeds 20MPH or less, faster than that the engine sound
drowned it out) 2) No MP3 support.

Now the main display light no longer works, so I can't see the
station/track etc very easily.

Looks like it's time for a new HU. I've had Alpine before (7817) but
it's hard for me to compare the sound with the Denon because with the
7817, I had it going into an Alpine amp.

It would be nice if the HU had auxiliary inputs, but from the specs
this doesn't seem to have one.
I think I read somewhere that the CD changer connector can be converted
to an auxiliary input.
The device that I want to connect is the XM radio. (I plan on
connecting an IPOD also).

The reviews seem very positive, so I'm willing to have the XM go into
an FM freq. if all else is good.

FWIW, I tried a Pioneer MP4800, (bought it at Circuit City) and like
the Denon better. The Alpine was more analytical, but the Denon much
more musical. Took the Pioneer back.

Any opinions would be welcome.

[MOSFET]

BBE has got nothing to do with compensating for MP3 inadequacies. That is
not why it was developed in the first place or incorporated into some
HU's.

You're right. I don't know why I siad that (I was tired). BBE has been
around MUCH longer than MP3. Also, BTW, I had BBE in my previous Alpine
deck, the 7863 and I liked it. I used it all the time (unlike the "Media
Expander" feature on my 9853 which I ALWAYS leave off). Although it's true
that BBE boosts the treble and bass, it also seemed to widen my soundstage.


My guess is that Alpine's dropping of those tweaking features dear to your
heart is because there is no longer any money in it.

Did you read my posts? That is EXACTLY what I said. Consumer feedback told
them consumers did not like it and that they are getting rid of it for
marketing reasons.

MOSFET

[Captain Howdy]

Because more then half of the time you don't know what you're talking about,
maybe?

You're right. I don't know why I siad that (I was tired). BBE has been
around MUCH longer than MP3. Also, BTW, I had BBE in my previous Alpine
deck, the 7863 and I liked it. I used it all the time (unlike the "Media
Expander" feature on my 9853 which I ALWAYS leave off). Although it's true
that BBE boosts the treble and bass, it also seemed to widen my soundstage.




MOSFET

[MOSFET]

Because more then half of the time you don't know what you're talking
about,
maybe?

You're right. But I'll take being right half the time over being right none
of the time, like you.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

Because more then half of the time you don't know what you're talking
about,
maybe?

And one more thing. You're mother wears combat boots!

So there! Nyah!

MOSFET

[Eric Desrochers]

The time alignment crap
was orginally for some arbitrary pa sound system , at some typical selcted
crossover frequency, typically around 1 kHz. This does nothing for the typical
home or car sound system. Most professionals don't like it.

How would you know...

TA is indeed used for live sound on about ALL high end pro sound
systems. TA has nothing to do with the quantity of high frequency in
the system, so you obviously are confusing TA with some other gimmick...

--
Eric (Dero) Desrochers
http://homepage.mac.com/dero72

Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95

[Eric Desrochers]

Another conspiration theory. Maybe the sound shaping functions in their
HU were canibalizing the sale of their high end outboard processors?

--
Eric (Dero) Desrochers
http://homepage.mac.com/dero72

Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95

[Eric Desrochers]

MOSFET wrote:

Also, you have to wonder if the INCREDIBLE popularity of the MP3 format has
made sound quality no longer a major concern.

That may be their reasoning but I disagree. Even if you were playing 8
tracks, you would still benefit from the P-EQ, TA and x-overs.

MP3 well reproduced will always beat MP3 (or even CD) badly
reproduced...

And they are not so bad to begin with. I like MP3 in the car to no end.
I would never go back to tapes!

--
Eric (Dero) Desrochers
http://homepage.mac.com/dero72

Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95

[Captain Howdy]

Oh and one more thing on top of that, your wife blows tweeters
So there! Nyah!



In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Because more then half of the time you don't know what you're talking
about,
maybe?

And one more thing. You're mother wears combat boots!

So there! Nyah!

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

Oh and one more thing on top of that, your wife blows tweeters
So there! Nyah!

LOL

I like that one, Howdy.

Regarding your other rant, let me put it this way, you and Matt are two
COMPELTELY different people.

I understand you. You make me laugh. Except for the fact that you can
sometimes scare noobs (and I really don't think that's a big issue), I think
you make this place fun and I get a kick out of bull ****ting with you.

But you will notice that I will NEVER engage in any serious debate with you.
Take a look at ALL our past posts. I NEVER respond to anything you say
seriously. I made that mistake ONCE, and it made me VERY mad (our first
fight) because I THOUGHT you were normal and I could use logic and reasoning
with you. But now I know better.

I don't take ANYTHING you say seriously, and therefore you never annoy me,
honestly (or I would have blocked you, like I did Matt). I enjoy our
banterings, but I WILL NOT engage in ANY sort of serious debate with you.
EVER.

Matt is a different story which you can't even BEGIN to understand.

I just don't like Matt. OK? Is that simple enough for you, Howdy.

But believe it or not, I DO like you. You have moxy. You have balls. I
like that.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

Another conspiration theory. Maybe the sound shaping functions in their
HU were canibalizing the sale of their high end outboard processors?

Yes, but how many outboard processors do they sell anymore? My guess is not
that many. That's my point. Nobody seems to care anymore about complex
sound-shaping in the automotive environment.

We have already discussed the many reasons why this is so. For instance, I
know for years the competitive arena drove many high-end manufacturers.
IASCA rules created a demand for extensive EQ's and time alignment features
as well as other complex sound shaping tools. But IASCA (along with all the
other SQ focused organizations) is dead. The ONLY competitive car audio
arena left is the SPL world where SQ means NOTHING.

But that's just one of MANY reasons why the emphasis on SQ has lessoned in
the last few years.

MOSFET

[Eric Desrochers]

Yes, but how many outboard processors do they sell anymore? My guess is not
that many. That's my point. Nobody seems to care anymore about complex
sound-shaping in the automotive environment.

We have already discussed the many reasons why this is so. For instance, I
know for years the competitive arena drove many high-end manufacturers.
IASCA rules created a demand for extensive EQ's and time alignment features
as well as other complex sound shaping tools. But IASCA (along with all the
other SQ focused organizations) is dead. The ONLY competitive car audio
arena left is the SPL world where SQ means NOTHING.

But that's just one of MANY reasons why the emphasis on SQ has lessoned in
the last few years.

MOSFET

Isn't it depressing? Just when great and affordable DSP become
available, they are no longer sought after by the customers...

I never entered a SQ competition, not even attended one, but I
understand their importance for pushing the enveloppe as to what is
wanted from the manufacturer. Maybe one day SPL will go out of fad (or
will be rendered illegal, who knows!) and SQ will take back its place...

--
Eric (Dero) Desrochers
http://homepage.mac.com/dero72

Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95

[RG]

Most professionals do like it, and it is not just a "dynamic" boost of the
highs, nor is it a treble control. I would never buy another HU without it.
But to each their own I guess ...

- RG


"GregS" wrote in message
...
In article , "RG"
wrote:
My opinion on this differs somewhat. I have had Alpines with time
alignment
and other HU's as well. My current HU's have EQ's with one being a
parametric. My personal experience is this:

1/ Time alignment is not for everyone. I never used this feature as in my
experience it actually degraded the sound (in my particular experience).
Alpine's return to including BBE far outweighs the exclusion of time
alignment. In fact, time alignment would be at odds with the operation of
BBE. Time alignment does nothing for inherent phase delays between highs
and
lows whereas BBE does. The current BBE feature is much better than time
alignment IMO.

BBE is not what its cracked up to be. That demo on their website
is a real winner. SO lame.

What BBE does, is boost the highs dynamically. It has some benefit,
but mostly, you can do that with a treble control. The time alignment crap
was orginally for some arbitrary pa sound system , at some typical selcted
crossover frequency, typically around 1 kHz. This does nothing for the
typical
home or car sound system. Most professionals don't like it. It
can help playing bad compact cassettes, but again, so can a treble
control.

greg

[RG]

ROTFLMAO !!

You're right. But I'll take being right half the time over being right
none
of the time, like you.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

Maybe one day SPL will go out of fad (or
will be rendered illegal, who knows!) and SQ will take back its place...

It would be a nice dream. But it will never happen. As was already
mentioned, the biggest killer to our "way of life" (so to speak) is the fact
that modern cars have extremely integrated audio systems already built in.
By integrated, I don't just mean from an electronic perspective (although
that is certainly more and more the case). But from an aesthetic
perspective as well. More and more, the modern dash-board has become a
seamless melding of form and function.

Or, in more simple terms, the guy with the brand new Lexus does NOT want his
dash ****ed with (no matter how fancy the latest Alpine looks).

The days of simple DIN to DIN HU swaps are OVER! I believe this, more than
any other factor, will be the death knell for aftermarket HU manufacturers.

What WILL keep this industry around for decades I expect is the love many
people have for bass. No matter how good the latest "premium" factory sound
system gets, there will ALWAYS be those who demand MORE BASS. Amps and subs
that can integrate with factory systems will likely be the biggest sellers
20 years from now (keep in mind, this is just one guy's prediction).

So yes, it's too bad. It would have been nice if car audio could have gone
the way of home audio. But there are forces working against us that will
eventually prevail, I'm afraid to say.

The best analogy to this whole thing is the progression of the automobile
engine. At first, anyone with a set of tools and a little know-how could
work on their own car. They could perform modifications and fix most
problems. Then cars went and became computerized. All of a sudden, you
needed a WHOLE LOT of know-how to work on a car. This is what I see
happening to car audio. As factory HU's become more and more integrated
into other car functions, it will become increasingly difficult for the
DIYer to change or modify anything. And again, I'm not JUST talking about
the electronic end of this, but styling considerations will become more and
more important. Again, people are going to be nervous messing with the
dashes of their new Infinities. This wasn't the case 20 years ago when even
high-end cars (Mercedes for instance) used the standard DIN sized HU.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

ROTFLMAO !!

It was SUPPOSED to be a childish retort (like his).

[Captain Howdy]

I like that one, Howdy.

Regarding your other rant, let me put it this way, you and Matt are two
COMPELTELY different people.

That's not what you just said in your other post, did you change your mind or
just trying a different angle? Two peas in a pot ring any bells?


I understand you. You make me laugh. Except for the fact that you can
sometimes scare noobs (and I really don't think that's a big issue), I think
you make this place fun and I get a kick out of bull ****ting with you.

You thought that it was a big issue just the other day and I sure did not
sense and hahaha there.


But you will notice that I will NEVER engage in any serious debate with you.
Take a look at ALL our past posts. I NEVER respond to anything you say
seriously. I made that mistake ONCE, and it made me VERY mad (our first
fight) because I THOUGHT you were normal and I could use logic and reasoning
with you. But now I know better.

I sure as hell hope not, serious debate is not your strong point. As seen in
your posts with Matt.

I don't take ANYTHING you say seriously, and therefore you never annoy me,
honestly (or I would have blocked you, like I did Matt). I enjoy our
banterings, but I WILL NOT engage in ANY sort of serious debate with you.
EVER.


What was that term that you have used the other day, "you make me sick" Yet I
never never annoy you.


Matt is a different story which you can't even BEGIN to understand.

I just don't like Matt. OK? Is that simple enough for you, Howdy.

It's never that simple, but I totally understand as does Matt from what I have
read in here.


But believe it or not, I DO like you. You have moxy. You have balls. I
like that.

Is that just today, or just on your off days? Maxie and having balls is in a
sense the same.

Anyway, whatever works for you. Maxie today, bully tomorrow. Keep me posted.



MOSFET

[MOSFET]

Is that just today, or just on your off days? Maxie and having balls is in
a

It's moxy you bonehead. It's like trying to explain something to a 9 year
old. Why did I bother? I'm sure nothing I said registered if you don't
even understand the words I use.

Oh well, we'll just go back to flipping each other **** (and YES, I do enjoy
it). Furthermore, has it ever occured to your little pea brain I may not
mean everything I say to you. Sometimes I just push your buttons for kicks
(because I ALWAYS get a response).

So YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Stay tuned. I may say something completely
different tomorrow, like, Howdy, I love you.

MOSFET

[Captain Howdy]

You should attended a SQ competition, just to get an idea of what you are
talking about. Then enter a SQ competition and make good friends with a judge
and get him to spend a month in your car setting up your system just right.
Then enter another SQ competition so that the next judge can tell you that
your system does not sound right. Feel free to pull your dick like that untill
your nuts turn blue. Then let me know what you think.

Isn't it depressing? Just when great and affordable DSP become
available, they are no longer sought after by the customers...

I never entered a SQ competition, not even attended one, but I
understand their importance for pushing the enveloppe as to what is
wanted from the manufacturer. Maybe one day SPL will go out of fad (or
will be rendered illegal, who knows!) and SQ will take back its place...